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LightZodiac

Do the devs really listen to their community?

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13 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

I never spoke in the name of all players.

Case closed.

And yeah I'd like that too.

True...

You spoke in the name of "A Lot"...Which makes your commentary no less hyperbolic than that Tenno's.

Simply put, you used a generalization to support a stance and so did they.

I find it ironic that you debunk an opposing stance when it's based on the same foundation you've built your own on.

Pot meet Kettle.

Lastly, I found your request  to have DE tell you they don't care about Vets and Min-Maxers rather amusing.

This whole game is a love letter to Vets and Min-Maxers.

...It's everyone else that's been slotted under the bus.

The whole game's revenue model is designed around casuals and new players chasing Vets and Min-Maxers power levels by design. 

9 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

If it boils down to WF is a casual experience and if you don't like it leave then fiiine, i'm already down to playing dailies.

There is no scenario here where you will get what you want without others giving something up for you to have it.

What you want and DEMonkey want are two vastly different things imo as it relates to the game we have now...I don't disagree entirely with either perspective but recognize that you don't change flavors that radically without expecting backlash.

DE has been quite open about not being excited about how the current power delta stands currently so they may do something about it unless they decide they can't.

For my part, I've said for years that attribute stacking, a lack of attribute caps, and the lack of DR, a would wreck this game long term and it probably will/has...But I am just a player.

By choosing to play this game we all agree to follow their lead on the matter and these issues are duly noted by them in multiple venues.

If you can't, then don't.

If it's not fun, then stop.

Nothing screams for action louder than reduced player count.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Am I the only Vet that loves the fact that I can log in and slaughter hordes of enemies in supremely entertaining, loot-producing fashion AND watch Netflix in bed with my wife at the same time?

We don’t need an Eve online situation...

If only more vets shared your view...

Also, congrats on your multi-tasking abilities. :thumbup:

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7 hours ago, LightZodiac said:

I have a certain problem with this game, lack of challenging content and lack of an actual endgame (challenging endgame would be really nice), the thing is I googled a bit and I can see that a lot of players had been asking for the same thing for quite some time now and yet we still don't have either of those in the game.

We got a lot of "we are listening to you", "we care about you", "you are important to us"... but no challenge or endgame. 

The thing "we" did get was arbitration. I said "we" because the content was lukewarm to start with, just regular missions with reused asset floating around giving enemies immunity to everything oh and +300% ability strenght for random frame and weapon... much challenging just what we wanted /s, but even that was promptly nerfed so it pretty much belongs to the basket of what casual players get.

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players, or actually show us some of that love and caring and give us what we need.

With Anthem right around the corner I think they better get moving on that end game, because right now Anthems my end game 

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The problem with comparing Warframe to games like Destiny/Anthem, is that they operate very differently. That isn't to say that Warframe can't expand on more challenging content, or offer an "end game" but I do think it is easier for games like Anthem to make content because they only need to balance gameplay around 3-4 classes, compared to Warframe's 38 frames. We can also make the same comparison with weapons.

As others have said, DE has been making small strides in this direction, and testing the waters with Arbitrations. I'm not saying I was happy with that as a solution, but I appreciate that the effort is being made. I think that they are moving in the right direction by adding in systems like the Wolf of Saturn and difficulty sliders. I don't think this is something that is just going to happen over night, and we'll likely see lots of trail and error around these changes.

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7 hours ago, LightZodiac said:

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players...

I wouldn't say that because that'd be a lie. On the devstream overview, one of the points were as follows:

  • Difficulty scaling will be here for those looking for the regular Warframe experience, as well as extreme challenges for those who like to push the Meta its limits, and let them rise up.

Read more here: https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-122-overview

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9 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

extreme challenges for those who like to push the Meta its limits, and let them rise up.

 

I cant push meta to the limits if they keep nerfing everything that have a mere single step to be strong! 

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15 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

Difficulty scaling will be here for those looking for the regular Warframe experience, as well as extreme challenges for those who like to push the Meta its limits, and let them rise up.

Can't speak for anyone but myself, but this is far from encouraging.

The absolute last thing I want to do is push the meta to it's limits, frankly it should be the last thing the Devs want as well.

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17 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

I wouldn't say that because that'd be a lie. On the devstream overview, one of the points were as follows:

  • Difficulty scaling will be here for those looking for the regular Warframe experience, as well as extreme challenges for those who like to push the Meta its limits, and let them rise up.

Read more here: https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-122-overview

This supposed to be the kingpin system which it seems scrapped or shelved.

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1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

True...

You spoke in the name of "A Lot"...Which makes your commentary no less hyperbolic than that Tenno's.

Simply put, you used a generalization to support a stance and so did they.

I find it ironic that you debunk an opposing stance when it's based on the same foundation you've built your own on.

Pot meet Kettle.

As a matter of fact it makes all the difference, saying that a lot of players want challenging content and endgame is in no way an understatement, while not an exact science there are more then enough posts asking for just that to support that claim. Saying that all players want on the other hand... I am a Warframe Player and I alone can easily dispute such claim.

But that doesn't really matter since you are obviously not interested in any form of civilized discussion and just want to bicker. I have no time for that and I didn't read the rest of your post. Plz don't respond to me.

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13 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

As a matter of fact it makes all the difference, saying that a lot of players want challenging content and endgame is in no way an understatement, while not an exact science there are more then enough posts asking for just that to support that claim. Saying that all players want on the other hand... I am a Warframe Player and I alone can easily dispute such claim.

But that doesn't really matter since you are obviously not interested in any form of civilized discussion and just want to bicker. I have no time for that and I didn't read the rest of your post. Plz don't respond to me.

So pointing out someone else's use of generalization as a means of persuasive argument is bickering?

...Then why did you do it?

Better yet..Since you saw the devstream why the post at all.

I respect your need to gripe I am curious about why you have it right after heading that DE plans to address the issue?

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Can't speak for anyone but myself, but this is far from encouraging.

The absolute last thing I want to do is push the meta to it's limits, frankly it should be the last thing the Devs want as well.

It sounds like they plan to address difficulty in more than one way to me.

I still don't know how it will have meaningful impact without things like diminishing returns on abilities and attributes though.

Maybe Elite Onslaughts and Arbitration mechanics was meant to test diminishing returns and new mechanics kind of like Rathuum was?

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29 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Bickering sounds...

Saying "a lot of players" is not really overblowing the weight of my argument. I mean you are free to discredit me on this one.

Saying "everybody" is overblowing the weight of the argument by a huge margin. I can discredit it right here right now... not me there.

I don't really like a kind of talk where one person takes it on himself the right to represent like... everybody.

Because we had devs address the issue multiple times already and they didn't really do anything about it. And this time they don't really sound all that reassuring "eh you know those min-maxers they take their notebooks and pens and calculate the most efficient way to.... can't really do anything about it".
They do just that in a bunch of other games and they do not brake them because system doesn't allow them to, things are regularly buffed/nerfed to keep some sort of balance. In WF you don't even need the notebook and the paper.

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I would say this

DE does listen to us for new content, however they don't really listen when it comes to execution of the content itself, they also hype things up when it comes to tennocon

A lot of player were antipating that fortuna wasn't going use the bounties system from PoE. But DE still put it with mediocre rewards

When the sacrifice was released, many players were expecting a new place to explore, and a new enemy to fight. But what we get is a frame with a boosted stat.

In the end

Primed dissapointment has always been a thing in Warframe, especially last year (2018) was just mediocre year for Warframe

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I just think of it this way:

It’s a marriage going on through 5 years. Certain motives keep us together. Certain backlashes have occurred but we’re still together. We still love each other.

Listening? Oh, ok. (Selective hearing, a la The Bundy family from “Married with Children”).

Things will get done.

... Eventually.

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11 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

define challenging.

even the hardest mission can be cheesed with the right frame, thus eleminating all challenge. And given the vast amount of Frames, Weapons and builds we have, there will always be some way to cheese content.

here is a tip: if you want challenge try do do high level missions without a meta build, try to run with only half of the mods or none at all instead of crying that there is nothing that can challenge you uber-meta cheese

Mods are disabled.

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1 hour ago, LightZodiac said:

Saying "everybody" is overblowing the weight of the argument by a huge margin. I can discredit it right here right now... not me there.

It was hyperbole that everyone uses, and really that's all there is to it and there's no reason to keep talking about it. You can assume that when someone says "Everyone thinks this" they mean "This is an opinion I see very often" which is anecdotal, but not nearly as big a deal as this tangent has made it out to be.

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vor 7 Stunden schrieb DeMonkey:

Because, perhaps, said poster doesn't just want higher levels? 

Perhaps they realise that, with the abilities we have available to us, there's no real difference between a level 1 and a level 9,999. We have ways of never getting hit, scaling damage, immortality. Why anyone would think that those asking for challenge just want higher levels is beyond me. Same applies to those who think higher levels are challenging. You even said this in your initial post here, which they quoted.

I'm not saying I think DE will ever actually make the game challenging, as realistically it requires a rework of... the entire game, but "handicap yourself" is a rather poor response. The game has become, through the consistently tacked on mechanics and powercreep, an unbelievably casual experience.

As for "define challenging", one of the reasons I think no one wants to say what they consider challenging is because everyone will hate the answer, but sure.

- No permanent invisibility.

- No immortality.

- No scaling enemies.

- AoE should be weaker than single target damage.

- Less mobility.

- Reduced ability usage, either via cooldowns or the removal of bs like Zenurik and energy pads.

Etc and so forth. Boo hoo it's awfully generic, and yes it is. Want to know why it's generic? Because it works. Challenge cannot exist in the game when we cannot get hit. It cannot exist if we can one shot enemies, or blast them through walls. Challenge cannot exist when we rely on infinitely leveling enemies to eventually push us out of a mission.

And of course, none of that is going to happen. I'm aware of this, but that doesn't mean that people can't gripe about the lack of it.

Assuming things is bad.

https://i.ibb.co/jT9ntcZ/Forum-Clap.png

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They do, but they also misinterpret lots of things. When we said we want a meaningful endgame, we didn't mean the 1000th endo farm (Arbitrations).

And when we were asking for Titania rework, we didn't ask only to make it faster to get the useless buffs which are still problematic (2nd ability)

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8 hours ago, xcenic said:

I cant push meta to the limits if they keep nerfing everything that have a mere single step to be strong! 

And you need that to get teh harder challenging gameplay that all you "people" want.

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7 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

It sounds like they plan to address difficulty in more than one way to me.

I still don't know how it will have meaningful impact without things like diminishing returns on abilities and attributes though.

Maybe Elite Onslaughts and Arbitration mechanics was meant to test diminishing returns and new mechanics kind of like Rathuum was?

Perhaps, personally though I don't consider Arbitration a good mode.

It, to me, feels like a cop out. A, "yes, abilities are too powerful, but instead of actually nerfing them like we probably should we're just going to find ways to turn them off repeatedly".

I guess we'll see what happens, and give feedback when it does... Not that feedback appears to have done anything for Sanctuary Onslaught and Arbitrations.

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10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Perhaps, personally though I don't consider Arbitration a good mode.

It, to me, feels like a cop out. A, "yes, abilities are too powerful, but instead of actually nerfing them like we probably should we're just going to find ways to turn them off repeatedly".

I guess we'll see what happens, and give feedback when it does... Not that feedback appears to have done anything for Sanctuary Onslaught and Arbitrations.

I don't like either of them tbh but they both present new ways of tackling old problems.

Ya never know...The nice thing about the game that launches next month is that it supplies relevant direct competition in many respects.

Competition(whether people admit to its' existence or not) brings out the best in many so DE may surprise...They've come up with some elegant solutions in the past.

It could well be that we know of as the game now is the beginner/mid levels and things change at the high levels in ways we haven't thought of yet.

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4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I don't like either of them tbh but they both present new ways of tackling old problems.

Ya never know...The nice thing about the game that launches next month is that it supplies relevant direct competition in many respects.

Competition(whether people admit to its' existence or not) brings out the best in many so DE may surprise...They've come up with some elegant solutions in the past.

It could well be that we know of as the game now is the beginner/mid levels and things change at the high levels in ways we haven't thought of yet.

One can only hope. I'll be spending the majority of this weekend playing it.

Given it's been built for this, as opposed to Warframe growing to this, it'll be interesting to see the difference.

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13 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Can't speak for anyone but myself, but this is far from encouraging.

The absolute last thing I want to do is push the meta to it's limits, frankly it should be the last thing the Devs want as well.

Indeed. Sounds incredibly boring.

But then I was quite shocked to discover that some people apparently create spreadsheets to find the most efficient ways of completing games. If thats their idea of "fun" then I guess I can't criticise...but it seems weird as hell to me.

 

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15 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Indeed. Sounds incredibly boring.

But then I was quite shocked to discover that some people apparently create spreadsheets to find the most efficient ways of completing games. If thats their idea of "fun" then I guess I can't criticise...but it seems weird as hell to me.

Spreadsheeting a game to maximize a build is a little like a hobby in itself.There is a certain appeal to planning ahead, estimating your odds and then executing the plan to success. What makes it particularly boring in Warframe is not so much the concept of minmax but the execution after doing so which is the removal of 80% of the gameplay. By that point, the idea of fun is completely substituted for rewards.

If the game never scaled up to a point where you can invalidate 99% of enemies, the problem with the power-hungry meta would just be another DPS-obsessed nut in an RPG.

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14 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Can't speak for anyone but myself, but this is far from encouraging.

The absolute last thing I want to do is push the meta to it's limits, frankly it should be the last thing the Devs want as well.

On the flip side, it can create content in which CC frames (Vauban, Nyx..etc.) aren't laughably useless and if they add gimmicks like in Arbitrations some aspects of "meta" may be balanced. So I guess we will have to wait and see how it goes.

As for the OP's jab at arbitrations, I believe they are a stepping stone for something harder. Sure some people complain on the forums about hard content, but I bet a good portion would ditch the game altogether if all of a sudden they had a one death, no ability, 300LV+, scaling reward mode in which they can't participate because it's all of a sudden so far off what the game's usual concept promotes, be it time, build requirement or player skill.

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