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3 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Then deal with the fact you're not prepared for him if he arrives. Just like if you take a Braton MK-1 on an Eidolon hunt.

Most of the times the other Assassins only drop a crap mod too.

This is starting to sound like just another I want it all right now complaint.

If you go on an eidolon hunt, you know exactly what you're going to fight and when. The Wolf can show up whenever.

It's nowhere near comparable.

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Yeah, but in a regular mission you know what to expect,  whats coming & what ois expected of you in the mission unless your wholly new to it, thats excusable, this thing drops in & its game over "because im not leet enough" this for all 4 players.

And how many new players are going to get this sack that just railroads their ass into the ground & doesnt stop or go away that they cant touch due to no fault of their own save that they started up the game & wanted to play?

Again trying to force players into playing a particular way with a random element that can ruin their game by imposing NW story narrative elements on players who otherwise may want nothing to do with it due to lack of reward for effort involved or disinterest in the story or just insert reason here.

Its one tbing having stalker pop in to say hello & rip a new player to shreds, he does it, hes gone, Gustrag 3, same, they do theyre thing & move on, wolf just keeps at it until everyone has their fill of a worthless fight.

Again the effort was amazing & fun, I could even forgive getting nothing in it, but the crap reward, inexcusable.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Then deal with the fact you're not prepared for him if he arrives. Just like if you take a Braton MK-1 on an Eidolon hunt.

Comparing wolf to an Eidolon hunt? Really? Have you even thought about this before typing it?

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Most of the times the other Assassins only drop a crap mod too.

Sure, but none of them are time limited.And in the event they are (take acolytes), they drop only exclusive mods. Not a molten impact.

Honestly, your are starting to sound like someone who must defend this no matter what. As if you were the one designing it and were offended by the critics.

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Also as for the I want it all garbage, seriously, what out of the wolf is WORTH calling that want on?

That pathetic weapon? does he drop catalysts or something that I dont know about.

This is more like wanting something WORTH wanting without the thing ruining a relic run, defense mission, spy, rescue, interception, hijack and so forth, only safe place are archwing missions & thats just sef abuse at its best.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Rank 30 is mid-rank for the event. Rank 30+ are "Prestige" ranks that we're not expected to get. They estimated (and players have math'd) doing over half of the chores are needed to only reach the midpoint of the event EVERY WEEK. People are expected to reach 30ish, with the hardcore getting prestige above that.

Tying this in with the main and previous points:
If you don't get at least 60% on any given week (like missing 2 weeks), you have to make that up with Fugitive captures or doing Elite Weeklies the remaining weeks, going well beyond the "60%" in those weeks. And if the whole issue was a time crunch BEFORE, now it's simply an exercise in futility.

You can't just skip everything you "don't like" doing, because you don't know what will prevent you from doing acts that you "do like" later in the event, when non-game life gets in the way, or you'd rather play the game how you like playing, accomplishing your own goals, and making progress toward what will make you happy, rather than filling in a checklist of chores that some RNG spit out.

(This all assumes one wants the rank 25,28,29,30 rewards, which are the only ones that really stuck out as "worth getting" and seemed out of reach to me, AND you don't care about wolf-cred ... but newbies and everyone without the important aura mods, or people who need Reactors/Catalysts, or need Nitain, NEED that wolf cred, so they'll NEED to enter the Prestige ranks for a pitiful 15 creds per 10,000 standing - and that was the stuff we got from Alerts, and that's what Nightwave is supposed to make easier to get (ahem *work for over time on their own time table, except that they expire and the shop's inventory rotates* ahem) for those with jobs and limited time to play... yeah, big fail on that goal... a point most of us agree on, that the system should front-load wolfcred in the reward table, rather than glyphs/etc)

I don't see entitlement here... I see people critiquing the Nightwave system failing to meet its expressed design goals.

 

Well, it seems to me that you are assuming that the design goals actually was that players should achieve rank 30, but that is absurd.

Reaching rank 30 is easily possible for most, if not all players (since even a MR0 starting the 1st week could do it).

Reaching rank 30 by skipping a lot of challenges, by just not doing them or not playing Warframe, why should that even be possible? This is the "entitlement syndrome" I was referring to, the idea that the game should be adapted to your personal life, needs, wants and feelings outside the game. The idea that while your decisions and real life impacts when, how much and what you can play (and of course they do), you should still be "entitled" to reach rank 30, and since you will not or cannot do what actually needs to be done it is the game that should be fixed and adapted instead. This way of thinking (if it is "thinking") feels completely absurd to me, it really does.

I have my own "feelings" about Nightwave, I would like the 1 hour challenges back (I think they were the best part), I want the "forced friending" to stay gone forever (on principle) and I am deeply disappointed that Prestige ranks only gives 15 Wolf credits, because what is on offer in the Wolf store is not stuff I want or need (just put Forma on offer, and I would be ok with it, because, well, you ALWAYS need more Forma). Or something really good and insanely expensive that you splurge all Wolf credits on.

But I do not feel that I am entitled to such things, or that Nightwave (as a concept) sucks because of this, and I do not write mopy "I will stop playing unless DE does what I want"-comments because of this. And it is not about "me", I really think a few better shop items costing mucho credits and worth grinding for would improve Nightwave for ALL players, I think that doing the 1 hour missions is good and exciting for A LOT of players (many, many players had never done anything like a 1hr survival at that level without being able to use life support modules). I think the FOMO stress was both unnecessary and stupid (since it generated a lot more stress than anticipation or excitement). I also think 10 weeks is a bit too long, especially since those "into this" clears most challenges during the first 24 hrs, which leads to the rest of the week actually being more empty than before (alert-wise). And staying invested for 2,5 months, that's a LOOONG time. However, overall I think that putting alerts in a larger concept is a great idea, and that this 1st try is quite good, but could become even better. And that the one thing that could actually destroy this is the "me, me, me, warframe should be all about me"-gripe, which DE unfortunately occasionally listens to.

Edited by Graavarg
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32 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

If you go on an eidolon hunt, you know exactly what you're going to fight and when. The Wolf can show up whenever.

It's nowhere near comparable.

But knowing his weaknesses, and knowing he may show up, and choosing not to be prepared is exactly the same.

I've killed him half a dozen times. I've gotten one part. He killed me once. I'm not here complaining I wasn't ready that one time and I want a nerf.

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30 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Comparing wolf to an Eidolon hunt? Really? Have you even thought about this before typing it?

Sure, but none of them are time limited.And in the event they are (take acolytes), they drop only exclusive mods. Not a molten impact.

Honestly, your are starting to sound like someone who must defend this no matter what. As if you were the one designing it and were offended by the critics.

Yes, I thought it through.

No, the Acolytes do not drop only exclusive mods, They drop crap too.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Yes, I thought it through.

No, the Acolytes do not drop only exclusive mods, They drop crap too.

Except they do? The only place you can get any of the acolytes mods is fighting acolytes. Granted, there are 5 out of the total 20 mods that can be found in Lua Spy mission. That's all. The rest are exclusive mods you can't find anywhere else. That is exactly what means "exclusive". Be them crap or not, they are exclusive from the acolytes event.

And no, it seems you didn't think it too much. You can't find an eidolon while leveling up weapons, or while being a mr1 that is levelling his newly acquired rhino in a venus defense mission. You can, however, find the wolf while doing that.

You are acting as if everyone was a MR27 that has everything already maxed and can afford going to all missions with a full set of L30 equipment fully forma'ed.

Edited by (NSW)Belaptir
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Well where the hell else can you avoid this thing? To play a match with people that wont get a whole team monkey banged by Mcgilla Gorilla on PCP? Or as someone i played with lovingly dubbed from old school WoW The Rape ape.

Well i suppose theres sanctuary onslaught, but otherwise again through no fault save bad luck anyones game could be rendered a waste by this thing showing up, A challenge this does not make, a pain in the ass more this is yess mmhmm.

Btw, Switch also doesn't have the experienced or geared up player base the other systems have to merit the kind of luck where 1 in 4 players will even begin to be ble to handle this thing so trust me when I tell ya, alot of new players are NOT having a good time & up until my ban last Thursday Ive heard no small amount of these exact complaints, so if this was ever meant to bring in new players? Its failing, if its meant to cater to vets? Its well I dont know, not too many left on Switch & by vets i mean anyone who remembers the old Star chart or lack of more like, present a story, ok win there, I like the Warriors easter egg, but thats me.

 But you know what, we should all be used to massive game ruining threats that ruin any degree of fun, renders all effort null & void whilst robbing people of time.

We seem to be accepting of Host migrations afterall.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Except for bit where each [alert] ended maybe an hour after it started. 

But the system as a whole kept going. In theory it could have run for 100 years.

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Right now, prestige ranks award players who are done over 60 credits per week. What you're suggesting is a steep downgrade. Also many of the seasoned vets don't really care about the vast majority of the creds store offerings. So it's by no means good for them either. 

My suggestion was to have NW as a loop (store included) with no defined ending after 10 weeks, so a slower rate would imo fit in with that.
Either way, if need be reputation could still be tracked and raise the cred payout.

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Sorry but unless they're handing out umbral forma like candy, I just don't see it working. Remember, many of us wanted it so badly that we consented to grind out 290k worth of standing over the course of 5-7 weeks and many others will get there before the end of week 10-11.

The way I layed it out, you`d have a shot at umbral forma once every 15 weeks. That`s hardly "handing out like candy".
Since I already called the challenges that would substitute the rank-reward-timeline "master elites", I wouldn`t mind them being gated by something like mastery rank either.

7 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'd guess that stronger players helped to carry the weaker players just based on the stats I saw along the way. What happens to the weaker players if the strong stopped bothering with the weeklies? A big part of an event like this is the fact that everyone is trying to complete the same challenges all at the same time. 

I'm not saying that the idea won't work, but I'm not seeing it working based on what you said. 

Actually, that`s a core part of my critizism.
Why is everyone trying to complete the same challenges, even though the game has such a wide range of player "levels"?
Why is it a good thing to have strong players carry weaker players, for rewards which aren`t even aimed at those weaker players?
That`s a result of the "carrot on a stick, with a timer attached" format.

As one of the weaker players, I`d prefer to be excluded from hunting the great price right now, but know that I`ll have a shot at it once I grew stronger.

 

 

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Let's think about it, "Now eidolon hydrolist spawns on normal missions randomly, be sure to bring good gear!"

It'll be total chaos, newbie killer, and making levelling harder.

I like it.

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32 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Except they do? The only place you can get any of the acolytes mods is fighting acolytes. Granted, there are 5 out of the total 20 mods that can be found in Lua Spy mission. That's all. The rest are exclusive mods you can't find anywhere else. That is exactly what means "exclusive". Be them crap or not, they are exclusive from the acolytes event.

And no, it seems you didn't think it too much. You can't find an eidolon while leveling up weapons, or while being a mr1 that is levelling his newly acquired rhino in a venus defense mission. You can, however, find the wolf while doing that.

You are acting as if everyone was a MR27 that has everything already maxed and can afford going to all missions with a full set of L30 equipment fully forma'ed.

So, tell me again how I was wrong when I said they don't just drop exclusive mods, because 5 of them can be gotten from Lua Spy? You do know the meaning of "exclusive" right?

Yeah, you can find an Eidolon while levelling weapons if you're free roaming on the Plains. But you're ignoring my point which was well made to make stupid responses. 

No, I'm saying equip one weapon that allows you to fight the Wolf.  If you choose not to when you know there is an increasing chance for the wolf to spawn. That's on you for choosing not to be prepared. I'm not even MR27 yet. I didn't realise there were enough points to be MR27 until I saw people mentioning it today.

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40 minutes ago, (NSW)Hatemachine said:

Btw, Switch also doesn't have the experienced or geared up player base the other systems have to merit the kind of luck where 1 in 4 players will even begin to be ble to handle this thing

Didn't a lot of experienced players port their accounts over?

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

So, tell me again how I was wrong when I said they don't just drop exclusive mods, because 5 of them can be gotten from Lua Spy? You do know the meaning of "exclusive" right?

Yeah, you can find an Eidolon while levelling weapons if you're free roaming on the Plains. But you're ignoring my point which was well made to make stupid responses. 

No, I'm saying equip one weapon that allows you to fight the Wolf.  If you choose not to when you know there is an increasing chance for the wolf to spawn. That's on you for choosing not to be prepared. I'm not even MR27 yet. I didn't realise there were enough points to be MR27 until I saw people mentioning it today.

I do know it, but you don't seem to. Almost all are completely exclusive to the acolytes and 5 of them can be found also in a spy mission that almost nobody does. I'd consider them also exclusive since the easiest way of finding them is an acolyte. Theoretically, they aren't, but technically they are since nobody does spy lua anyway.

You must be the only player that free roams on the plains to level up weapons and, when sees an Eidolon, stays fighting it instead of moving a couple hundred meters away from him to avoid all danger. Or do the Teralyst follow you across the plains? I guess that's something from the new plains, because I never saw an Eidolon do such things. I'm not ignoring your point, you made a stupid point; it's ok, happens to everybody.

And yes, you are basically saying that everyone should be prepared to fight the wolf as if that was something that everybody can do. You don't seem to understand that there is people who can't be asked to be prepared to fight him and will encounter him anyway. Or that there are a lot of situations in which you can't be prepared, but then again, you are blinded by your bias. You think that everybody is like you, and that, since you play like that and works for you, everybody else should, actually, you are just saying that it's your problem if someone just started playing a week ago, hasn't even reached Helene and has to encounter and suffer the wolf because they are not prepared. I guess you never were a MR1 that had to level up his new paris (not the prime), along with the bo and the kunai on Lith, Earth.

Elitist, much?

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16 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Let's think about it, "Now eidolon hydrolist spawns on normal missions randomly, be sure to bring good gear!"

It'll be total chaos, newbie killer, and making levelling harder.

I like it.

God! Me wants!! Can't wait to see a Hydrolist spawn on Hydron, or even better, on a Uranus underwater spy! I'd love to see an hydrolist diving!

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can we have a repeatable night wave that runs all the time but it is caped with the points like 

kill a night wave boss that spans in X place 

because i have NOT GOTTEN the wolf drop and dont know what to do with my self now cant buy parts cause he is expensive and i want to get all event items 

 

please help rn jesus help me 

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9 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Except for bit where each ended maybe an hour after it started. 

Right now, prestige ranks award players who are done over 60 credits per week. What you're suggesting is a steep downgrade. Also many of the seasoned vets don't really care about the vast majority of the creds store offerings. So it's by no means good for them either. 

Uh... Potato, forma, kuva, arcane, umbral forma... I'm not getting 15 from that (and some people groused about the quantity of the kuva, and the potato and forma may be quicker to farm parts for plat and just buy those). Remember those cosmetics are mostly one and done. 

Sorry but unless they're handing out umbral forma like candy, I just don't see it working. Remember, many of us wanted it so badly that we consented to grind out 290k worth of standing over the course of 5-7 weeks and many others will get there before the end of week 10-11. 

I'd guess that stronger players helped to carry the weaker players just based on the stats I saw along the way. What happens to the weaker players if the strong stopped bothering with the weeklies? A big part of an event like this is the fact that everyone is trying to complete the same challenges all at the same time. 

 

I'm not saying that the idea won't work, but I'm not seeing it working based on what you said. 

If 4 mr8's show up and do a mission. Then repeat mission replacing to 8's with 2 mr 24's.....are the mr 24's really carrying the mission because they dominate the stats?. 

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3 hours ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Sure, but none of them are time limited.And in the event they are (take acolytes), they drop only exclusive mods. Not a molten impact.

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

No, the Acolytes do not drop only exclusive mods, They drop crap too.

 

 
 
 
2
1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

I do know it, but you don't seem to. Almost all are completely exclusive to the acolytes and 5 of them can be found also in a spy mission that almost nobody does. I'd consider them also exclusive since the easiest way of finding them is an acolyte. Theoretically, they aren't, but technically they are since nobody does spy lua anyway.

No, it seems you don't.

Also, you consider the easiest way is to do an event that comes along every few months for a week. Rather than the spy mission which is always there?

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

You must be the only player that free roams on the plains to level up weapons and, when sees an Eidolon, stays fighting it instead of moving a couple hundred meters away from him to avoid all danger.

Did I say that? No. The point I made was that you don't go on an Eidolon Hunt with an MK-1 Braton, you go prepared. A point you are completely ignoring to make up disingenuous idiotic responses. because you don't want to plan for the Wolf in any of your missions. You just want him to spawn and die at your feet with no effort and drop the L33T hammer parts.

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

who can't be asked

That's not the phrase.
 

And no the point I'm making is if you "Can't be Ar**d" to prepare for fighting the wolf, then that's on you, and don't come here complaining about how hard he is or how he wrecks you over and over. 

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

You just want him to spawn and die at your feet with no effort and drop the L33T hammer parts.

I suppose he want him to spawn in some specific maps, or not spawn at all.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

 

 

No, it seems you don't.

Also, you consider the easiest way is to do an event that comes along every few months for a week. Rather than the spy mission which is always there?

Did I say that? No. The point I made was that you don't go on an Eidolon Hunt with an MK-1 Braton, you go prepared. A point you are completely ignoring to make up disingenuous idiotic responses. because you don't want to plan for the Wolf in any of your missions. You just want him to spawn and die at your feet with no effort and drop the L33T hammer parts.

 

That's not the phrase.
 

And no the point I'm making is if you "Can't be Ar**d" to prepare for fighting the wolf, then that's on you, and don't come here complaining about how hard he is or how he wrecks you over and over. 

Phew... where do I begin?

You want to go that way? Yes, they are exclusive. They drop only in 2 places, 1 are the events and the other a single spy mission. Yes, they are exclusive of those two places. Nowhere else you can find them. They won't drop you a molten impact or a shocking touch that can be found almost everywhere.

And yes, I consider them easier there because that single mission is a pain and you rarely find anyone doing it. So yes, many people think that it's easier to wait for the acolytes rather than doing a mission they consider a pain.

Then, you seem to not understand that the wolf can appear in every single mission of the star chart while the eidolon is a boss located in a certain point at a certain time. You can't compare them because they are far from being comparable. My point stands; a MR0 with an MK-1 Braton won't go fighting an Eidolon even if they find it in the plains. They'll move away from him and continue with whatever they were doing; the same MR0 with an MK-1 Braton can find the Wolf while levelling it on the Earth defense. See how silly is saying what you said? Nobody said that we want him to spawn and die at our feet with no effort. But it is clear that spawning such a beast in a random mission where there can be people unprepared is not the way to go. Again, what many of us are suggesting is a different way of making him spawn: call it beacons, call it a mission node where you need points to enter (much like the ambulas), call it an acolyte type of enemy that works like those acolytes from the stalker but without the general HP bar they have.

Lastly, yes, it is the phrase. You can't ask a MR0 to be prepared for the wolf. They won't be able to. Can't you understand that there is people like that? Did you really forget what means to be a MR0? Or are you just behaving like an elitist that doesn't care about anyone except themselves?

Again, the point you are making is "if you can't be prepared for the wolf, I don't care, it's your problem and no one else's because I'm always preapred for and everyone should be". You really don't get that there is people unable to fight him, and it's incredibly selfish from you.

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So your fine with ANYONE who isnt up to your level of time invested in this game WITH ALERTS all the way up to the last month, should be allowed to have their entertainment ruined so you can feel special that this worthless plot device DOESNT ruin your entertainment?

It's the players fault? that this thing requires, an arca plasmor that does 20k & a kitgun that does 30k or whatever to make the content passable? this is acceptable?

Grin & bear it, suck it up all of you! quit whining, how dare you complain that this contrived pile of pig meat is too tough, go get better! oh and have fun taking him on randomly, be unable to hurt him & just shut up.

I can pretty much promise if you had this thing drop in the early days of play, you would be in the same boat just about every new switch player is experiencing right this minute, that every new player is having to deal with & veterans dont want to carry people through because this plot device isnt worth the time.

Is the wolf worth it? worth getting those weapons? getting that MR just to be able to not have your free time derailed everytime this screaming putz decides to make an appearance? because thats the only solution right? this isnt real life, this is entertainment, one should enjoy the experience, not WORK HARD playing, thats just another job.

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8 minutes ago, (NSW)Hatemachine said:

So your fine with ANYONE who isnt up to your level of time invested in this game WITH ALERTS all the way up to the last month, should be allowed to have their entertainment ruined so you can feel special that this worthless plot device DOESNT ruin your entertainment?

It's the players fault? that this thing requires, an arca plasmor that does 20k & a kitgun that does 30k or whatever to make the content passable? this is acceptable?

Grin & bear it, suck it up all of you! quit whining, how dare you complain that this contrived pile of pig meat is too tough, go get better! oh and have fun taking him on randomly, be unable to hurt him & just shut up.

I can pretty much promise if you had this thing drop in the early days of play, you would be in the same boat just about every new switch player is experiencing right this minute, that every new player is having to deal with & veterans dont want to carry people through because this plot device isnt worth the time.

Is the wolf worth it? worth getting those weapons? getting that MR just to be able to not have your free time derailed everytime this screaming putz decides to make an appearance? because thats the only solution right? this isnt real life, this is entertainment, one should enjoy the experience, not WORK HARD playing, thats just another job.

oh my god wtf GIF

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27 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

You want to go that way? Yes, they are exclusive. They drop only in 2 places, 1 are the events and the other a single spy mission. Yes, they are exclusive of those two places. Nowhere else you can find them. They won't drop you a molten impact or a shocking touch that can be found almost everywhere.

Not at all what you said, Stop trying to move the goal post and admit you were wrong.

 

28 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Then, you seem to not understand that the wolf can appear in every single mission of the star chart while the eidolon is a boss located in a certain point at a certain time. You can't compare them because they are far from being comparable.

No, I get that, You don't seem to get the point that if you aren't willing to be prepared for the chance he may spawn. Don't complain that it is broken because you got wrecked because you chose not to be prepared. You keep ignoring or not understanding that point just so you can come back with a stupid unrelated answer.

 

30 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Lastly, yes, it is the phrase.

No, it's not. Wrong again.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/can't+be+arsed

33 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

You can't ask a MR0 to be prepared for the wolf. They won't be able to.

Yep, and I wouldn't expect an MR0 to be prepared for Zanuka, The Grustrag 3 or "What Stalker?"

 

 
 
 
32 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Again, the point you are making is "if you can't be prepared for the wolf, I don't care, it's your problem and no one else's because I'm always preapred for and everyone should be". You really don't get that there is people unable to fight him, and it's incredibly selfish from you.

Nope, again you missed the part where I said I was unprepared twice. You did not see me on the forums complaining about how he was too tough and he killed me one time, and the other time took 5 minutes to whittle him down. You also don't see me bragging I've soloed him several times.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Not at all what you said, Stop trying to move the goal post and admit you were wrong.

 

No, I get that, You don't seem to get the point that if you aren't willing to be prepared for the chance he may spawn. Don't complain that it is broken because you got wrecked because you chose not to be prepared. You keep ignoring or not understanding that point just so you can come back with a stupid unrelated answer.

 

No, it's not. Wrong again.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/can't+be+arsed

Yep, and I wouldn't expect an MR0 to be prepared for Zanuka, The Grustrag 3 or "What Stalker?"

 

Nope, again you missed the part where I said I was unprepared twice. You did not see me on the forums complaining about how he was too tough and he killed me one time, and the other time took 5 minutes to whittle him down. You also don't see me bragging I've soloed him several times.

Wow, just... wow. You really don't see that there is people in a low MR that is unable to fight him and beat him, right? I'm out of this discusion, it's pointless to try to discuss something with someone who won't see other than their truth.

  • Applause 6

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