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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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4 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Cred Offerings StoreEdit

Apart from the ranking rewards, Nightwave also features a Creds Offering store, where players can purchase various items such as Aura Mods and Cosmetics.

During each series of Nightwave, players can earn an exclusive special currency by ranking up, which are then used to purchase the aforementioned Nightwave offerings. Note that after the end of a particular series, this currency will expire and the next Nightwave series will introduce a new currency to spend.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Nightwave

If you can't afford enough wolf creds to buy a single item at the end of the 10+ weeks, you really won't be losing out on anything. Or was there something that you thought they were going to offer for 1000 creds? 

In other news, what you thought was a piece of the sky that had fallen was really just an acorn. 🙄

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1 hour ago, Solarsyphon said:

At the end of night wave can we have a node to assassinate the wolf NORA as maybe a 1 week event or something.

There I fixed that for you. Her AND her microphone please. I would probably pay plat to do that.

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3 hours ago, random__noob said:

There I fixed that for you. Her AND her microphone please. I would probably pay plat to do that.

I still don't trust her very much, either. 

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I still don't trust her very much, either. 

Well, considering al the stuff that we are finding out in the story, we as Tenno shouldn't be trusting anyone very much right now.  

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I made a whole big topic/post about it and then found this forum. Woops. Won't double post but all my feedback has been made in a post, hope that helps!

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So, let's look at the economy, for those missing out on why things are less rewarding right now.

 

Objectively, you get 250 credits for levels 0-30, and 15 credits thereafter.  The new items on offer are:

  1. Tonkor Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  2. Atterax Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  3. Marelok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  4. Grinlok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  5. Hek Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  6. Karak Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  7.  Saturn Six Ornament - 40 credits

To those not counting, that's 220 credits.  Those veterans have 30 credits left, until they have to grind.  No Reactor or Catalyst, until you've ground through at least 3 additional levels of the event.  Even then, one in 10 weeks is less rewarding that the random invasions have been for me over the same time.

 

What about new players?  Well, they can skip the new cosmetics.  No sense in buying them when you can't even get an aura mod.  No sense in getting them when you can't get Nitain.  No sense in getting them when even a basic warframe has to go without a reactor, and you can't equip mods because the catalyst you need is locked behind another grind wall.  If you'd like to understand as a veteran remove all rare mods, remove the aura, and limit your frames to half their mod capacity.  Is this how you'd like to be introduced to the game?

 

What does it compare to?  Well, in one year I went from -5 reactors and -3 catalysts (restarted with 5 of each in inventory, but enough new content was launched in two years I needed 8 and 10 respectively) to having 20 of each.  In another 8 months I earned 40 of each total, despite spending a few.  I went from 0 Nitain to everything built and 388 in inventory.  I could reasonably have started a second or third account, and in my spare time accumulated enough items on them to be at level 20 or better.  On top of this, I was able to grind out enough kavat gene codes to RNG through the random system and get both types while still having enough for Khora and 10 extra if I wanted a furry cat army.

The following was with the Alert system.  What does Nightwave offer in return:

  1. Less rewards.  Specifically, those that meter progress.  Read above, but the highlight is reactors, catalysts, nitain, and aura mods.
  2. Cosmetics.  12 of the 30 reward tiers are cosmetic.  
  3. Slots.  3 total, 2 weapon and 1 warframe.  Over the same period, the additional content added more than doubled this quantity.
  4. Mods.  3 mods (remember, only 2 weapon slots) for weapons that largely go unused because they're middle-tier.  Of the mods, 1 seemed to be worth it, because it completely changed how the weapon worked (no complaints with the Penta, just an observation about how "fixing" the launcher means entirely reworking it).
  5. A single Umbra forma.
  6. Two rewards which had to be consumed to get subsequent standing.  
  7. A single Arcane of tier 4.  This is just insulting personally.  It doesn't provide a powerful enough effect to keep, so it floods the market with sane people looking to sell the rare arcane for infinitely more useful platinum.  If we were looking at a fully leveled tier 2 Arcane, or a pack of 3 tier 4 arcanes, it's be an introduction to the system.  As it is, this is not enough to reward, and transparently a call to seek out more.  

 

So, what did I expect given the comments.  First off, getting less rarer items was expected.  If you can choke off the flow of the items most useful to your veterans, while giving them something which on the surface appears to be better, then you've got a transition in economy which benefits the game.  I was also expecting cosmetics to be a primary motivation, because the art department requires less commitment than the gameplay department to push something out.  This is not an insult, but necessary to admit to if you believe DE is optimizing staff time usage in preparation for Railjack.  

What didn't I expect?  The new player experience going to garbage.  I just can't understand how a new player would come into Warframe, and think it's a game to keep playing.  You are thrust against challenges hidden behind huge content walls (sorties, Eidolons, and Profit-taker), the basic power-ups (catalysts, reactors, and auras) now have to either be the only rewards for your efforts or purchased, and worst of all nobody can explain why the veterans using the alert system have oodles of many of these things while you either have to pay for their power or grind for literally weeks to hopefully have the credits and a reward rotation align to get one or two of these things.

 

Nightwave is a disappointment because it's partitioning off the older and newer players.  At some point, unless Nightwave is fixed, it'll be impossible for a new player to do content because it was rolled out to satiate someone two to three orders of magnitude more powerful than you.  If this wasn't apparent with Nightwave, look at the economy fix with PoE.  After the Arcanes were purchased rather than a BP for the Arcane, I found over 100 new arcanes in my inventory.  I can only conjecture DE noted the economy was broken for new players, and to fix it they matched Fortuna and introduced bosses (Thumpers) who drop the resources without the RNG and time sink of fishing.  Those that enjoy it are still welcome, but those strong enough to tackle a boss can get more resources in 10 minutes than others could in hours.

I want Warframe to succeed.  It cannot with what we have now.  Nightwave needs to be retired once this is done, and we need a Nightwave-Alert hybrid.  Cut out the new rewards, move difficult challenges to weekly grinds, and have them reward one unique item per week.  Have daily alerts for substantive resource caches, to push new players onward and get things like Nitain and Tellurium.  Offer 3-4 day medium challenges to get credits, which can be spent to purchase reactors, catalysts, gene codes, and cosmetics (reactors/catalysts requiring 2 rewards, cosmetics requiring 0.5-1 rewards, and Kavat codes requiring .75-1 rewards).  In this way you have a substantive grind for the old players, capped by timing.  Middle players can get rewards, but if they don't they aren't penalized.  New players are shown "huge" reward caches, and a progression path to get the power they want.  Once they have the basics down, it's not a penalty to miss something so much as a challenge to do better next time to be rewarded as such. 

 

 

Paragraphs above can be simplified as the following.  Nightwave is an interesting experiment, but largely a failure.  You replaced alerts, without the most basic economic comparison between the two.  Nightwave fails new players, and should be replaced and refined to include elements of the alert system.  Please, stop copying other people's systems (battle pass) without understanding why what exists works.  Most importantly, don't hide behind the assertion this is a personal attack or hate for DE. 

If we hated you, I simply would leave the game forever.  The hate I have for Origin and EA has led me to not buying anything from them since Mass Effect 2.  I left a single review on their game saying that day 1 DLC for a single player game was unacceptable.  That was a no effort piece of feedback before terminating the relationship.  You've warranted multiple painfully long posts, trying to explain how your consumers see you.  Take the hints, and please be better.  Otherwise, I don't think this game will last long enough for the majority of players to obtain a Mastery Rank of 30.

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Posted (edited)
vor 6 Stunden schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

If you can't afford enough wolf creds to buy a single item at the end of the 10+ weeks, you really won't be losing out on anything. Or was there something that you thought they were going to offer for 1000 creds? 

In other news, what you thought was a piece of the sky that had fallen was really just an acorn. 🙄

New players who started in between? New players who not know better as said like Nitain or Catalysts?

Also as masterofdetiny stated afterward.

vor 57 Minuten schrieb masterofdetiny:

Objectively, you get 250 credits for levels 0-30, and 15 credits thereafter.  The new items on offer are:

  1. Tonkor Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  2. Atterax Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  3. Marelok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  4. Grinlok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  5. Hek Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  6. Karak Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  7.  Saturn Six Ornament - 40 credits

To those not counting, that's 220 credits.  Those veterans have 30 credits left, until they have to grind.  No Reactor or Catalyst, until you've ground through at least 3 additional levels of the event.  Even then, one in 10 weeks is less rewarding that the random invasions have been for me over the same time. 

The things is not missing out anything but how unfriendly it is for new players buddy, the design is simply very worse then alerts in my eyes.

I simply still not see why we couldn't keep both, Alerts for like cosmetics, nitain, auras, etc. and Nightwave a additional way to get things.

Catalysts and Reactors are nice but they distract new players due there high pricing, look at auras prices increased due limiting you to buy them from nightwave isntead of people able ot get them still random and due that you can buy several catalysts and reactors if you sell the auras instead. The whole system is just flawed and needs improvment, we critic this simply because its flawed and not glorify it so it never changes again like most things DE sadly dropped.

I love DE and Warframe but some of there decisions are questionable lately again simply. AGAIN its not about affording them, i have all wolf creds to and got all i wanted, but its new player unfriendly again desptie them stating it was supposed to replace alerts for new players to be better. So please, don't defend it and say its ok jsut because SOME were able to do all, not everyone has that time and we want to do other things in between aswell, not focus on Nightwave all day.

Edited by Marine027
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1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

Objectively, you get 250 credits for levels 0-30, and 15 credits thereafter.

LOL. No. 

Want to try again? Because it impacts on the rest of your math and assertions. 

22 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

New players who started in between? New players who not know better as said like Nitain or Catalysts?

Again, it should be possible for newer players to get roughly 50 creds per week from the lower tiers. The third week is a forma bundle (normally costs plat) and the 4th is 50 creds and a potato. In the same time there should have probably been another potato as a Gift of the Lotus. A veteran might be able to get through to that point in maybe 3 weeks. 

Again if you are talking about someone so new that the can't complete any challenges, then you are dealing with a player who will not benefit and their focus is probably better spent elsewhere so that they can be better prepared for the next nightwave. Of course that level of player probably won't benefit from the majority of things on offer in the shop anyway, so we can pull all of the cosmetics out of the equation as well. 

Now, I've said repeatedly, I would like to see the costs rebalanced for the newbs, but that's not going to help someone who literally can't even begin to do the first thing. 

22 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Also as masterofdetiny stated afterward.

Bad news, mate. The very first line is wrong. After that, it's all error carried forward isn't it? 

 

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25 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

New players who started in atalysts and Reactors are nise but they distract new players due there high pricing, look at auras prices increased and due taht you can buy several catalysts and reactors if you sell the auras instead.

Can you clarify what you mean? It sounds loke you're saying that buying aura mods and selling them for platinum, and then using that platinum to buy reactors from the market is a better value than just buying potatoes with credits. That's... weird. Why aren't the people spending platinum on auras using wolfcred instead?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

Please, stop copying other people's systems (battle pass) without understanding why what exists works.

This - and bolded for emphasis.

This applies to everything that DE wants to add to Warframe that they've seen in other games and feel looks cool - such as "juggling" enemies. What works in game x won't necessarily work for game y without an understanding as to why it works.

1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

Most importantly, don't hide behind the assertion this is a personal attack or hate for DE. 

Sadly, backlash to helpful criticism is going to happen. There's always going to be some irrational fan boy / white knight that will not tolerate any kind of constructive criticism of the game they love. If you ask me, if they truly loved the game, they'd welcome well thought out changes that are focused on improving the quality and life of said game.

With regard to Chore Wave Night Wave, no...it arguably hasn't improved the player experience much. Yanking out regular Alerts was arguably a needlessly heavy-handed action that hurts newer players and those that simply don't have the time to invest in Night Wave. That being said, I've yet to see one convincing, rational argument as why normal alerts and Night Wave - even with a little tinkering - can't co-exist.

Edited by MirageKnight
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

This - and bolded for emphasis.

This applies to everything that DE wants to add to Warframe that they've seen in other games and feel looks cool - such as "juggling" enemies. What works in game x won't necessarily work for game y without an understanding as to why it works.

Sadly, backlash to helpful criticism is going to happen. There's always going to be some irrational fan boy / white knight that will not tolerate any kind of constructive criticism of the game they love. If you ask me, if they truly loved the game, they'd welcome well thought out changes that are focused on improving the quality and life of said game.

With regard to Chore Wave Night Wave, no...it arguably hasn't improved the player experience much. Yanking out regular Alerts was arguably a needlessly heavy-handed action that hurts newer players and those that simply don't have the time to invest in Night Wave. That being said, I've yet to see one convincing, rational argument as why normal alerts and Night Wave - even with a little tinkering - can't co-exist.

Yeah. Nightwave has potential, but the origin system doesn't feel as alive without the regular calls for help alerts represented, and I still miss the little resource rewards.

Edited by (XB1)Sir Dwar
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16 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

LOL. No. 

Want to try again? Because it impacts on the rest of your math and assertions. 

Again, it should be possible for newer players to get roughly 50 creds per week from the lower tiers. The third week is a forma bundle (normally costs plat) and the 4th is 50 creds and a potato. In the same time there should have probably been another potato as a Gift of the Lotus. A veteran might be able to get through to that point in maybe 3 weeks. 

Again if you are talking about someone so new that the can't complete any challenges, then you are dealing with a player who will not benefit and their focus is probably better spent elsewhere so that they can be better prepared for the next nightwave. Of course that level of player probably won't benefit from the majority of things on offer in the shop anyway, so we can pull all of the cosmetics out of the equation as well. 

Now, I've said repeatedly, I would like to see the costs rebalanced for the newbs, but that's not going to help someone who literally can't even begin to do the first thing. 

Bad news, mate. The very first line is wrong. After that, it's all error carried forward isn't it? 

 

You are more dense than the average neutron star.

 

As a correction, I missed one reward.  There are in fact 300 wolf credits from 1-30.  The only change is you have 80 credits rather than 30.  You discredit everything because of a single error in the math.  And because you'd get a single reactor/catalyst from the error (again, assuming you need nothing else).

By that logic, allow me to demonstrate that you are incompetent.  Reward =/= Requirement for next Reward.  If you pay $10 to get into a club, get six fun bucks to spend at the bar, and discover that the music in the club is barred by another bouncer, asking for another $10 (but giving you the ability to spend your fun bucks as if they were half the value of real currency) you wouldn't call the fun bucks a reward.  I provide this example because apparently the reward system in game has done a fine job obfuscating the rewards and costs (though you'll likely misconstrue this and call it different and therefore not capable of being equated. 

 

You repeatedly say that it needs rebalanced, then admonish anyone saying the same.  It's Schrodinger's reward system with you.  Perhaps add something to the conversation.  If you can't, but want to show you are better than everyone else because they must be wrong, then you aren't adding to the conversation.  You're in the midst of a filibuster, with you being the one person who must be right, despite admitting that you aren't, but everybody else is wrong.

 

From this point forward, consider me not speaking to you.  I'm sure that the above will be countered with a single quote where you said something else, ignoring the next three which changed your position later.  I can't afford you time, because you believe everyone is an idiot.  Perhaps when you put on your big boy (or girl) pants, and walk to the table with something other than "I've had every point so I must be right" we can talk.  Until that point, please troll as loudly as possible into the void.  

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As many others have already said, Nightwave is a great idea and represents how far Warframe has come.
It adds tangible goals for players to complete during their normal gameplay, and each tier feels good, reward and progression wise.
As a veteran, Nightwave gives me a reason to play, and some of the rewards feel great - mainly the cosmetics.

With that, I can understand the frustration of newer players, the removal of niatin alerts alone are devastating, I still remember hunting for those for days to craft several items, I have no idea how I would have done it within nightwave, even if you spend all your creds on niatin, it won't be enough for nothing more than a couple of weapons.

Same goes to catalysts and reactors, those alerts were rarer, but they could still give players at least one per week, and now you actually have to choose between potatoes and niatin? I think this might be asking too much of your players.

This game is already confusing (not to say abusive) to new players, which is a shame, because once you pass that mountain you discover a real gem, but I can see how nightwave's reward structure might be burdening new players to the point it can feel as it's too much.

My suggestion? take the best of both worlds - keep nightwave structure as is (a bit more variation in the cred store would be appreciated next round)
BUT, add back daily niatin and the occasional reactor alert.
 
I can understand, design wise. why DE would not want to increase the amount of creds they give out substantially,
but adding back some alerts will allow players to smooth out their progression curve (which, let's face is, is alraedy very grindy),
so they will remain active and happy players.

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6 minutes ago, masterofdetiny said:

You are more dense than the average neutron star.

While you might be correct, I'd refrain from using insults. Only serves to undermine an otherwise valid argument and it could get you into trouble.

 

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44 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

LOL. No. 

Want to try again? Because it impacts on the rest of your math and assertions. 

Again, it should be possible for newer players to get roughly 50 creds per week from the lower tiers. The third week is a forma bundle (normally costs plat) and the 4th is 50 creds and a potato. In the same time there should have probably been another potato as a Gift of the Lotus. A veteran might be able to get through to that point in maybe 3 weeks. 

Again if you are talking about someone so new that the can't complete any challenges, then you are dealing with a player who will not benefit and their focus is probably better spent elsewhere so that they can be better prepared for the next nightwave. Of course that level of player probably won't benefit from the majority of things on offer in the shop anyway, so we can pull all of the cosmetics out of the equation as well. 

Now, I've said repeatedly, I would like to see the costs rebalanced for the newbs, but that's not going to help someone who literally can't even begin to do the first thing. 

Bad news, mate. The very first line is wrong. After that, it's all error carried forward isn't it? 

 

 

2 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

While you might be correct, I'd refrain from using insults. Only serves to undermine an otherwise valid argument and it could get you into trouble.

 

 

I appreciate the response.  I also would suggest that calling someone dense is not a direct insult, but a statement of why I later suggest they scream into the void.  I should have taken heed 5 pages ago, and simply ignored them as if their comments had no value (similar to what is being done with mine).

 

I appreciate that DE has a policy, and regarding that I'd hope they understand that this is quite possibly the least angry response deserved.  On the other hand, a Zaw containing the Balla can't be called "The Balla."  Likewise, the amp most resembling an assault rifle cannot have the word "assault" anywhere in its name.  Meanwhile, I named my Kubrow by the order of breeding.  Eins, Duo, Tres, Quad, Quince,....can anyone guess the sixth?  The seventh was Sieben.   Yep, without even thinking I named my sixth Kubrow Sext without the profanity filter even blinking an eye.  Likewise, in Minnesota we referred to some of our Canadian friends as Canucks.  After suggesting the same thing at a party in Germany, we got some of the dirties looks possible.  A German friend took us aside, and confirmed that was apparently the N word to refer to people of Turkish descent.  DE's policies and enforcement are beyond my comprehension, and the goal to offend nobody is...not feasible.

In short, my point is if I have to eat a ban I'd hope that the new forum moderation would explain this.  It'd be a slap in the face, and indicate that the more things change the more they stay the same.  It would also prove that such a minor infraction causing a ban would be the death of this game, and that the PC police ruined another game.  It can burn atop the pile, because there are plenty of competing games out there.  I have faith DE is better than that, but  am willing to test it.  More importantly, if the feedback earns a ban it'll at least indicate somebody was paying attention.

 

It's sad that the bar is that low.  Despite this, hope will be maintained until it has been proven foolish (basically the point of the entire thread).  I hope I'm not a fool for espousing that.

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1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

I appreciate the response.  I also would suggest that calling someone dense is not a direct insult, but a statement of why I later suggest they scream into the void.

Agreed, but the mods might not see it that way. I've earned two warnings due to arguably heavy-handed interpretations of meaning and calling out another player's BS...

Glad to help btw.

1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

I appreciate that DE has a policy, and regarding that I'd hope they understand that this is quite possibly the least angry response deserved.  On the other hand, a Zaw containing the Balla can't be called "The Balla."

This.

1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

It's sad that the bar is that low.

Agreed 😕

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1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

You are more dense than the average neutron star.

 

As a correction, I missed one reward.  There are in fact 300 wolf credits from 1-30.  The only change is you have 80 credits rather than 30.  You discredit everything because of a single error in the math.  And because you'd get a single reactor/catalyst from the error (again, assuming you need nothing else).

Yes that makes perfect sense when your assertion was:

3 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

 

Objectively, you get 250 credits for levels 0-30, and 15 credits thereafter.  The new items on offer are:

  1. Tonkor Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  2. Atterax Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  3. Marelok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  4. Grinlok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  5. Hek Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  6. Karak Desert camo skin - 30 credits
  7.  Saturn Six Ornament - 40 credits

To those not counting, that's 220 credits.  Those veterans have 30 credits left, until they have to grind.  No Reactor or Catalyst, until you've ground through at least 3 additional levels of the event.  Even then, one in 10 weeks is less rewarding that the random invasions have been for me over the same time.

Again you literally started off by being wrong, and all that was left was error carried forward. Accusing me of being dense, won't change that. It's just another example of the type of ad hominem that you are willing undertake when someone brings facts and figures that disagree with your own. 

Why from there you might do something ridiculous, like suggest that people should get all of the new cosmetics at once, but then regret the opportunity cost of doing so, i.e. not being able to afford the things that that they chose not to buy. Oh... Wait that's what you did, isn't it? 

Now, had you just said that you think that the costs need to be rebalanced, I'd have agreed wholeheartedly. But that's not what you went for. 

1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

By that logic, allow me to demonstrate that you are incompetent.  Reward =/= Requirement for next Reward.  If you pay $10 to get into a club, get six fun bucks to spend at the bar, and discover that the music in the club is barred by another bouncer, asking for another $10 (but giving you the ability to spend your fun bucks as if they were half the value of real currency) you wouldn't call the fun bucks a reward.  I provide this example because apparently the reward system in game has done a fine job obfuscating the rewards and costs (though you'll likely misconstrue this and call it different and therefore not capable of being equated.

Another non sequitor that literally has nothing to do with nightwave. I'm not going to respond to your hypothetical because I figure you're trying to compare it with the no-net-loss from being asked to spend 6 forma and being rewarded with 6 forma. It's easily discarded by pointing out the simple fact that neither challenge was required to be completed to earn the rewards. 6k standing in total, in return for 6 forma that can be applied as you wish. I asked before if you want to compare the cost of forma to creds from the prestige ranks. I'll help you out (just to make sure that that there are no strange claims that are obviously false) it's 6 forma for 9 creds worth of standing. Looking at it from the other side, that's 70 plat for 9 creds. That's a great deal in my books. 

2 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

You repeatedly say that it needs rebalanced, then admonish anyone saying the same.  It's Schrodinger's reward system with you.  Perhaps add something to the conversation.  If you can't, but want to show you are better than everyone else because they must be wrong, then you aren't adding to the conversation.  You're in the midst of a filibuster, with you being the one person who must be right, despite admitting that you aren't, but everybody else is wrong.

Not at all. We can agree on the general change that's needed and disagree about the way it should be achieved. I'm happy to say once again that I'd like to see them rebalance the creds store and I have no problem with them raising the prices of the usually-for-pay offerings if it reduces the cost of the things that help newbs. That would probably make your erroneous math look generous in the extreme. And I'd be ok with that, as it would benefit the community. You're free to disagree of course, but turning this into an attack on the person disagreeing with you doesn't change the fact that what you said is clearly wrong. It's just an example of what you are willing to stoop to. 

2 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

From this point forward, consider me not speaking to you.  I'm sure that the above will be countered with a single quote where you said something else, ignoring the next three which changed your position later.  I can't afford you time, because you believe everyone is an idiot.  Perhaps when you put on your big boy (or girl) pants, and walk to the table with something other than "I've had every point so I must be right" we can talk.  Until that point, please troll as loudly as possible into the void.  

It's neither here nor there to me. I'll respond as I see fit, because that's the purpose of the thread. I'll even do it by addressing the points that people make, without trying to attack them as people. 

That's not what a troll would do, is it? But you go ahead and do you, mate. 

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So after approaching 90 pages of this, has any degree of consensus been reached on changes that are desired? I know a few are big with the rewards & the loss of drop in drop out quick fix option alerts presented whereas I hear alot of people just grind out NW challenges asap when the new wave hits on Sundays & feel the need to do so lest something during the week prevents them from getting those points, Calls in to work & unexpected incidents & such.

As Nora is constantly saying get it where you can when you can, not a good thing to do to folks at the start of their week, but for some this is perfect, its one day, every week that people are more active or pushing to accomplish these goals, more parties, people geared to do it & alot of folks in the same boat, Misery loves company afterall.

Again there are advantages & disadvantages here, biggest I have was the outright removal & trade for what feels like an inferior product & a poor trade for the casual player, but an absolute boon for those who needed something to get them moving beyond farming resources after having made all the stuff they wanted & having no playground to really push their efforts.

In general though I'm worried that were a few weeks away from this new way ending & another will begin & without a clear & direct lineup of WHAT people do or don't enjoy or feel are in the spirit of fun & entertainment we will all lose out.

All the ideas attacked or defended, every page of gripes & suggestions rendered moot by the communities inability to articulate its base desires for the game they're playing.

I hear alot of "if the next NW isnt better im not coming back" or "ill be taking a break" alot of folks are feeling that burnout & this again worries me, because DE wants a successful product.

So could we spare folks the pathos & drama & personal attacks, thinly veiled or otherwise?

DE needs feedback, not anyones wounded pride, btw I myself have been found guilty of this as well so I'm not without stirring the sh!t kettle here & for that ive done others an intense disservice, even if they deserved it.

But we really need to focus now, a few weeks to alter massive amounts code & in game tweaks, they need as much time as we can give them to address the concerns of their player base with this new system to prevent a mass exodus to other frontiers because we couldn't come out & say as a whole the things that are or arent wrong with it.

Anyway, a vain hope I know, but like i said when i first posted in this thread, im just that kind of hopeless twit & ill always try.

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I actually had an idea. Though this is a long thread and there has been many Nightwave threads posted since it's debut it might have been suggested before. Sorry if it has.

-Remove unique rewards from leveling up. Just give creds.

Now hear me out. This would make people feel less pressured to complete Nightwave to level 30. MAYBE you can add a few things to the cred store so people can chose what they get instead of being forced to rank up to a certain level. The pricing would have to be reasonable. If you have 30 levels, an armor set shouldn't make you have to save up 30 levels worth of creds, if you get what I mean. Perhaps for things like Warframe slots, weapon slots, etc...you could make them a one time purchase only (per Nightwave season) if that's a concern.

Maybe add a purchasable "Wolf" Beacon for creds? (or whichever character happens to be that seasons target)

 

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Having reached rank 30 and 3 Prestige ranks, I think I now have a complete feel of the Nightwave system, unless you (the devs) have some kind of surprise left. As I promised in another forum, I have been compiling a comprehensive feedback on Nightwave for submission. Here it is:

Overall Opinion:

Elimination of the Alerts' RNG and snooze-and-lose is a worthy goal, and Nightwave achieves that. Having a selection of Alerts items available for an entire week instead of randomly popping up and disappearing after 2 hours tops is a far more forgiving system, and not having to decide whether to rush to my PC when an Alert notification pops up on my phone is a blessing. On account of that alone, Nightwave is a step in the right direction. That being said, the current implementation is far from perfect and has many issues. I would like to highlight what I think those issues are, and what I think should be done about them.

Issues:

  1. Wolf Cred rewards feel stingy. Right from the start, to even get your first handful of Creds, you have to get to Rank 3 of Wolf of Saturn Six. This takes 30,000 Standing points, equivalent to all of the week's Weeklies, plus 1 Elite Weekly, plus 4 Dailies. That's too much work for just 50 Creds, which is exacerbated by...
  2. Cred Offering prices are too high. Fifty Creds is only enough for two Vauban parts, or a single weapon blueprint, or an Aura and a weapon skin, or a single helmet and 5 Nitain. That's a single week's worth of Nightwave. Can't buy anything else unless you go on a mega fugitive grind.
  3. There is a pressure to hoard. Let's face it, the most desirable Cred Offerings are obviously potatoes. The combination of Wolf Cred rewards being stingy and prices for other items being too high means many people are not going to bother with them, and save all the Cred for the potatoes instead.
  4. Nightwave and Wolf of Saturn Six are too integrated. There is widespread confusion that Nightwave and WoS6 are one and the same, and WoS6 rewards are lumped in with Cred Offerings. This has caused problems: there is a pressure to not miss out, even on players who are not in positions to be participating in the WoS6; they're either too low level or came in too late. WoS6 should be the special temporary event, no different from Operations, while Nightwave should be the base everyday system for delivering mundane Alerts items, and there should be a clear line drawn between the two.
  5. Nightwave lacks the instant reward loop that Alerts have. The basis to replacing any old system with a new one should always be "fix the bad, keep the good." For all of Alerts' flaws, it did get one thing right: the instant reward loop. You click on a mission, you spend up to 10 minutes to do it, and you are instantly rewarded. Nightwave lacks this instant reward loop: first you complete a challenge, which get you Standing points, then do another one until you get enough points to rank up, and only then are you rewarded. This is especially problematic due to aforementioned Creds being walled off at Rank 3; almost an entire week's worth of Challenges just to get some Creds to start buying mundane Alerts items. Effort should be made to match the Alerts' instant reward loop.
  6. "Prestige" rank rewards aren't very prestigious at all.  Previous rank rewards up until that point included things like 20,000 Kuva and Formas, but all we get for getting 10,000 over the top is 15 Wolf Creds. Wolf Cred rewards already feel stingy, and this is the stingy icing on the stinginess cake.
  7. Alerts were actually a better way to accumulate certain items than base missions. Alerts provided a nice boost to efforts to collect Kavat DNA, Tellurium, Oxium and Nightmare Mods, specifically Blaze and Hammer Shot. Quite frankly, this probably has more to do with the somewhat broken ways these items are normally acquired. I would get just 1-3 Kavat DNA strands per Derelict Exterminate run, and frequently get none at all. To get Tellurium, you'd either have to play Archwing missions, which nobody does, or spend a lot of time at Uranus or Kuva Fortress. Oxium means grinding lots of Corpus endless missions. Hammer Shot and Blaze have 1% chance to drop each on regular Nightmare mission; Legendary Arcanes have better drop rates from Hydrolysts, and there is no hard cap on how many Eidolons you can hunt per day. You can acquire Oxium and Tellurium from Bounties too, but that's pure RNG. In Oxium's case, this also sits on top of another RNG, since not all Bounty reward pools offer them.

Proposals for improvements:

  1. All Dailies and Weeklies should reward Creds in addition to Standing. Drip-feed them over time instead of walling them up the Standing ranks.
  2. Adjust the Cred economy. Either increase Cred drops, or reduce the Cred costs of non-potato items, or combination of both. Encourage people to spend Creds.
  3. Remove all Cred rewards from the Season rewards and replace them with more potatoes. This should ease the pressure to hoard and encourage more spending of Creds.
  4. Elite Weeklies should NOT reward Creds - Standing only. This, along with the removal of Creds from Season rewards, draws a clear line between the special Season event and the base Nightwave. Elite Weeklies are strictly for ranking up the Season event faster, and if you are not in a position to participate in the Season rewards line, this is a clear sign post encouraging you to just concentrate on the dailies and weeklies and the mundane stuff until the next season. At this point, you can get creative with your Elites.
  5. Common in-mission random events (fugitive spawns, in this case) should reward Creds only - no Standing. This is to more immediately reward the more dedicated players.
  6. Rare in-mission random events (Wolf of Saturn Six, in this case) should reward Standing.
  7. For the Weeklies, reward Creds in increments. For example, for the 3 Spy Missions Weekly, reward small amounts of Creds for each one completed, then reward bonus Creds along with Standing for completing all three.
  8. Better Prestige rank rewards. Since the base Nightwave system now handles delivery of Creds in entirety, we should have, say, a cycle between Formas, Kuva and Exilus Adapters instead?
  9. Add Kavat DNA, Tellurium and Oxium to the Cred Offerings.
  10. Increase the drop chances of Hammer Shot and Blaze. Ideally, all Nightmare Mods should have the same drop chance. Corrupted mods already do, so why not Nightmare mods? Even an increase to 5% each would be very helpful.

Conclusion:

As I said, I appreciate the core objective of Nightwave, but also see flaws in the current implementation. This is not in itself abnormal. I have compiled this feedback because I see this balance of potential and flaws, and I hope I have done so in an clear, concise, and objective manner. I hope, but do not expect, my feedback to be read by the developers and taken into account. I have done my part, now it is up to others to submit their own feedback, and for the developers to decide how to use them. Honest and factual criticism should be seen as an opportunity to improve; an opportunity I hope the developers will take. I look forward to seeing the next iteration, and seeing the said opportunity come into fruition.

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Just wanted to say, this week's challenges are the least obtrusive so far in my opinion. Not good, mind you, but not as obnoxiously tedious or detached from what the average player would normally do without Nightwave.

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39 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Having reached rank 30 and 3 Prestige ranks, I think I now have a complete feel of the Nightwave system, unless you (the devs) have some kind of surprise left. As I promised in another forum, I have been compiling a comprehensive feedback on Nightwave for submission. Here it is:

Overall Opinion:

Elimination of the Alerts' RNG and snooze-and-lose is a worthy goal, and Nightwave achieves that. Having a selection of Alerts items available for an entire week instead of randomly popping up and disappearing after 2 hours tops is a far more forgiving system, and not having to decide whether to rush to my PC when an Alert notification pops up on my phone is a blessing. On account of that alone, Nightwave is a step in the right direction. That being said, the current implementation is far from perfect and has many issues. I would like to highlight what I think those issues are, and what I think should be done about them.

Issues:

  1. Wolf Cred rewards feel stingy. Right from the start, to even get your first handful of Creds, you have to get to Rank 3 of Wolf of Saturn Six. This takes 30,000 Standing points, equivalent to all of the week's Weeklies, plus 1 Elite Weekly, plus 4 Dailies. That's too much work for just 50 Creds, which is exacerbated by...
  2. Cred Offering prices are too high. Fifty Creds is only enough for two Vauban parts, or a single weapon blueprint, or an Aura and a weapon skin, or a single helmet and 5 Nitain. That's a single week's worth of Nightwave. Can't buy anything else unless you go on a mega fugitive grind.
  3. There is a pressure to hoard. Let's face it, the most desirable Cred Offerings are obviously potatoes. The combination of Wolf Cred rewards being stingy and prices for other items being too high means many people are not going to bother with them, and save all the Cred for the potatoes instead.
  4. Nightwave and Wolf of Saturn Six are too integrated. There is widespread confusion that Nightwave and WoS6 are one and the same, and WoS6 rewards are lumped in with Cred Offerings. This has caused problems: there is a pressure to not miss out, even on players who are not in positions to be participating in the WoS6; they're either too low level or came in too late. WoS6 should be the special temporary event, no different from Operations, while Nightwave should be the base everyday system for delivering mundane Alerts items, and there should be a clear line drawn between the two.
  5. Nightwave lacks the instant reward loop that Alerts have. The basis to replacing any old system with a new one should always be "fix the bad, keep the good." For all of Alerts' flaws, it did get one thing right: the instant reward loop. You click on a mission, you spend up to 10 minutes to do it, and you are instantly rewarded. Nightwave lacks this instant reward loop: first you complete a challenge, which get you Standing points, then do another one until you get enough points to rank up, and only then are you rewarded. This is especially problematic due to aforementioned Creds being walled off at Rank 3; almost an entire week's worth of Challenges just to get some Creds to start buying mundane Alerts items. Effort should be made to match the Alerts' instant reward loop.
  6. "Prestige" rank rewards aren't very prestigious at all.  Previous rank rewards up until that point included things like 20,000 Kuva and Formas, but all we get for getting 10,000 over the top is 15 Wolf Creds. Wolf Cred rewards already feel stingy, and this is the stingy icing on the stinginess cake.
  7. Alerts were actually a better way to accumulate certain items than base missions. Alerts provided a nice boost to efforts to collect Kavat DNA, Tellurium, Oxium and Nightmare Mods, specifically Blaze and Hammer Shot. Quite frankly, this probably has more to do with the somewhat broken ways these items are normally acquired. I would get just 1-3 Kavat DNA strands per Derelict Exterminate run, and frequently get none at all. To get Tellurium, you'd either have to play Archwing missions, which nobody does, or spend a lot of time at Uranus or Kuva Fortress. Oxium means grinding lots of Corpus endless missions. Hammer Shot and Blaze have 1% chance to drop each on regular Nightmare mission; Legendary Arcanes have better drop rates from Hydrolysts, and there is no hard cap on how many Eidolons you can hunt per day. You can acquire Oxium and Tellurium from Bounties too, but that's pure RNG. In Oxium's case, this also sits on top of another RNG, since not all Bounty reward pools offer them.

Proposals for improvements:

  1. All Dailies and Weeklies should reward Creds in addition to Standing. Drip-feed them over time instead of walling them up the Standing ranks.
  2. Adjust the Cred economy. Either increase Cred drops, or reduce the Cred costs of non-potato items, or combination of both. Encourage people to spend Creds.
  3. Remove all Cred rewards from the Season rewards and replace them with more potatoes. This should ease the pressure to hoard and encourage more spending of Creds.
  4. Elite Weeklies should NOT reward Creds - Standing only. This, along with the removal of Creds from Season rewards, draws a clear line between the special Season event and the base Nightwave. Elite Weeklies are strictly for ranking up the Season event faster, and if you are not in a position to participate in the Season rewards line, this is a clear sign post encouraging you to just concentrate on the dailies and weeklies and the mundane stuff until the next season. At this point, you can get creative with your Elites.
  5. Common in-mission random events (fugitive spawns, in this case) should reward Creds only - no Standing. This is to more immediately reward the more dedicated players.
  6. Rare in-mission random events (Wolf of Saturn Six, in this case) should reward Standing.
  7. For the Weeklies, reward Creds in increments. For example, for the 3 Spy Missions Weekly, reward small amounts of Creds for each one completed, then reward bonus Creds along with Standing for completing all three.
  8. Better Prestige rank rewards. Since the base Nightwave system now handles delivery of Creds in entirety, we should have, say, a cycle between Formas, Kuva and Exilus Adapters instead?
  9. Add Kavat DNA, Tellurium and Oxium to the Cred Offerings.
  10. Increase the drop chances of Hammer Shot and Blaze. Ideally, all Nightmare Mods should have the same drop chance. Corrupted mods already do, so why not Nightmare mods? Even an increase to 5% each would be very helpful.

Conclusion:

As I said, I appreciate the core objective of Nightwave, but also see flaws in the current implementation. This is not in itself abnormal. I have compiled this feedback because I see this balance of potential and flaws, and I hope I have done so in an clear, concise, and objective manner. I hope, but do not expect, my feedback to be read by the developers and taken into account. I have done my part, now it is up to others to submit their own feedback, and for the developers to decide how to use them. Honest and factual criticism should be seen as an opportunity to improve; an opportunity I hope the developers will take. I look forward to seeing the next iteration, and seeing the said opportunity come into fruition.

Sweet lord! ask & thy prayers be answered! thank you, thats the kinda stuff they need to see from us here, got me forming a template for my own version of this, but yours already nailed a large cross section of what i see as major issues as well as rational solutions.

Mine will inevitably end with a more desired measure of integrating NW into the game to enhance a lackluster universe that really needs to become a cohesive whole as opposed to the microcosms everything is locked behind as I favor depth & the feeling of being involved with the games world, its characters & developing a sense of consequence for choices made, but more later.

Again thank you, stuff like this gives a fella hope!

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Came back to the game in time for nightwave. I had gotten to about saturn when I last gave up on warframe. I had a few frames, including Rhino and two twitch primes (trinity/frost). My available auras where rifle amp and physique IIRC. So I had a lot of good stuff that I needed out of nightwave's rewards.

I wasn't even able to glance the cosmetic rewards. All my wolf cred had to be reserved for the must have auras. With some spent on nitain because it's now a horrific resource to farm. I spent some time trying ghoul bounties but 1 nitain is in the rarest category of drops. If Vauban was cheaper I might give him a try but his wolf cred cost locks out too many other things I need. I also couldn't seriously consider grabbing forma or potatos from wolf cred.

At the start I wasn't even able to complete every challenge. Some of them where just ahead of where I was at with warframe a few weeks ago. So I'm not really caring about whether I can reach 30 with it or not. However, it's really difficult to hit warframe hard and get the resource rewards out of it. Too little wolf cred to resources for time invested getting that wolf cred.

Which isn't to say it's all bad. I've overall enjoyed the challenges presented and like the system. I just wish it didn't feel like increased scarcity for resources I desperately need (nitain/potatos/forma).

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38 minutes ago, BadgerDrool said:

Came back to the game in time for nightwave. I had gotten to about saturn when I last gave up on warframe. I had a few frames, including Rhino and two twitch primes (trinity/frost). My available auras where rifle amp and physique IIRC. So I had a lot of good stuff that I needed out of nightwave's rewards.

I wasn't even able to glance the cosmetic rewards. All my wolf cred had to be reserved for the must have auras. With some spent on nitain because it's now a horrific resource to farm. I spent some time trying ghoul bounties but 1 nitain is in the rarest category of drops. If Vauban was cheaper I might give him a try but his wolf cred cost locks out too many other things I need. I also couldn't seriously consider grabbing forma or potatos from wolf cred.

At the start I wasn't even able to complete every challenge. Some of them where just ahead of where I was at with warframe a few weeks ago. So I'm not really caring about whether I can reach 30 with it or not. However, it's really difficult to hit warframe hard and get the resource rewards out of it. Too little wolf cred to resources for time invested getting that wolf cred.

Which isn't to say it's all bad. I've overall enjoyed the challenges presented and like the system. I just wish it didn't feel like increased scarcity for resources I desperately need (nitain/potatos/forma).

Potatoes and forma are "premium" (because they are available with plat) resources and shouldn't be easy to farm. They weren't before, so it's fair. However, nitain is a problem right now for people who's starting.

Before, with the alerts, if I had to farm nitain, I'd set my objective on it and would try to catch as many alerts as I could. It wasn't perfect, I know, but at least, I could get my nitain AND auras that could appear. As it is now, getting nitain means choosing things that you won't get. I said it before, we need either more wolfcreds (and raise the price of potatoes to keep the rate of potatoes/wolfcreds equal), or lower the prices of most things of the cred shop.

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12 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

This applies to everything that DE wants to add to Warframe that they've seen in other games and feel looks cool - such as "juggling" enemies. What works in game x won't necessarily work for game y without an understanding as to why it works.

Just wait for the railjack, which is going to suffer from just that.

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