PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP PLACING NEW FRAMES BEHIND REPUTATION GRIND!

[HugintheCrow]

10 hours ago, (XB1)RevenantRequiem said:

Comics don't count for story. That's lore and worldbuilding. Story needs to be in-game. Stuff we experience as it happens.

Dude, this is embarassing, stop.

Story is story, no amount of silly mental gymnastics is gonna change the meaning of the word.

Is it really that hard to admit you were wrong?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, DLOArceus said:

Sorry but you can't go in and pretend people already know your life's issues and attack them if they make a mistake they couldn't have possibly known about. None of the three posts you made in this thread before the one i quoted said anything about that, so stop acting high and mighty and don't act like that is public knowledge. Sorry to "burst your bubble" but "your life circumstances have nothing to do with mine" or any other people either, and we have proof in this very thread that even people without time to play can do that, and other things like maxing other syndicates, without a problem. I mean god you admitted yourself to having ventkids maxed while i'm nowhere near even the second level of it. I myself play with a person that has a similar situation to yours yet he took a FIFTH of the time i did to get to max SU and VS because the tricks to leveling up were already known by that point.

I maxed Solaris in one week. Ventkids took me the same amount and I am only constrained by the last set of repellers for Vox via rep cap.. No bounties are needed if you know that there are better ways to gain standing and resources. You need to know this kind of thing in my situation since you need to make time for other things. But the way you wrote it seemed like a sweeping statement that everyone out there is a lazy bum with time but no effort. Yes, someone with one to two hours a can can comfortably max the stuff fast. But you clearly misinterpreted what I meant by "I have to fully commit". It is a slog, because it takes up that 15 minutes which I could have cracked relics, farmed a couple of Toroids or caught up on sleep.

Now, if you are implying I am just being lazy like a typical bum, then of course you should have expected the reaction you got. You don't become MR 26 or cap all your daily rep by being lazy if you only have an hour to game a day.

2 hours ago, DLOArceus said:

"You have lost that minute for something else"? Yeah, and when you spend that minute doing "something else" you have lost that minute that could have been spent doing "another thing". Grinding for base Saryn is much worse in my opinion than any of the new frames, which is also a reason for why i got her just a few days before Hildryn's release.

Grinding for base Saryn for me was never hard, because I was around before Rathuum and the Kela Rework. Again, this is all relative, and depends how long you have spent in the game. I never even fought post Rathuum Kela for Saryn, only for the mods. Base Trinity is definitely one of the worst ones to grind now. Base Mesa used to be 3x more annoying as well since you need 3 mutualist Alad coordinates, not 1, for each key. Again, as i state, this is all relative. That minute, if I didn't have rep grind, could have been used to ofc get primed parts or Toroids. Of course we have Exploiter orb now, but there wasn't Exploiter back then. There wasn't even Profit Taker or the next 4 levels of Vox.

I am simply saying that time is limited, and that there is always other things you will eventually need to do.

2 hours ago, DLOArceus said:

The only point i wanted to make was that grinding SU and VS still takes no time for the average player except for the Systems that are needed in VS,

This is false, unless you are assuming the average player is an MR 25++. It takes almost exactly one week worth of capping daily rep (which takes between 15 - 20 mins if you are good at mining, know where to mine and have an Itzal, longer if you DON'T. Conservation would require you to waste rep on lures and the tranq rifle, mining doesn't because you want Amarast anyway, not Thyst or Zodian which are worth less PER drop as they drop one at a time compared to 4 Amarasts) to go from 0 rep, lowest rank, to 0 rep, highest rank. To hit the Factional cap after that is another 5 days give or take. An MR 12, say, has only HALF my amount of rep cap, which means they will take twice as long to reach the highest rank of SU (ofc, they can spend half the time I spend mining because they will have an excess of gems). Then Vox, when it first came out, you ground it by the normal 1000 standing Toroids. There was no Exploiter Orb for cheap 12000 Toroids and a literal S#&$ load of tradeable gems (like 100 amarasts per run during the event, wtf). You either Toroid Farm ... or don't even bother.

There are many faster things to grind in Warframe that have less hassle. Just because SU and VS are easier to max than Quills and Ostron (Ostron is probably the worst because fish and gems just aren't worth the rep there) doesn't mean they are fast by any means. Farming frames like Loki and Ember seem pretty dang tame compared to SU and VS. Running faster than a tortoise doesn't mean you are Usain Bolt.

3 hours ago, DLOArceus said:

i have never cared for mine, your or anyone else's situation and i never wanted to come out as pedantic or mean, if that's the case i'm sorry. It's just that outside a few exceptions like you who actually have reasons to not grind this thread is full of people who are too lazy to play the game. I mean this very fourth thread page's first post complains about frames not being on bosses anymore when the last frame's parts drop from the latest boss added to the game, a boss that also requires 0 rep of any kind of syndicate. Plus i irritate easily so it seemed like a good occasion to vent a bit 🔡

Fair enough.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 13 heures, (NSW)Sniperfox47 a dit :

 

And how long have you been playing? When I started fresh last November on my new switch account that's super not realistic.

Veterans aren't the only people who's gameplay experience matters, and for people who are starting fresh it's a massive slog just lumped over the already existing tasks. I'd seriously suggest making a new account and playing through the new player experience. It gives you a much different perspective on this kind of stuff.

It took me about 3 weeks to max solaris, at Mr 18. While some are crying on the forums, I just did whatever the game asked of me.

Of course it takes time to do, but damn, it's supposed to be a small journey. Once you got baruk, you're trully happy cause you worked for it. It would be totally worthless if you could get him right away like garuda, no satisfaction at all.

If you take away such insentive to work toward something, not only would DE go bankrupt, but players would leave in waves. If there's nothing to work toward,there's no point in playing.

You all cry because it takes à little bit of time to get baruk, you are caring for that frame ! None of you would have even noticed him if he was given outright.

But it's far from a chore, as a new player, you're supposed to do it progresively. You're simply not meant to get it from the start, there are a bunch of frames for new player already. This is a reward for those who are further in the game.

In WOW, no one ever complained they could not do high level raids at lvl 5. Same thing, you can't complain that you can't rush baruk from mr4, it's an easy to get reward for higher level players.

Also, seeing that rep grind is a very good reason to grind Mr for new players, which there were next to none before cetus.

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

There are many faster things to grind in Warframe that have less hassle. Just because SU and VS are easier to max than Quills and Ostron (Ostron is probably the worst because fish and gems just aren't worth the rep there) doesn't mean they are fast by any means. Farming frames like Loki and Ember seem pretty dang tame compared to SU and VS. Running faster than a tortoise doesn't mean you are Usain Bolt.

I'd even argue that the Quills is a bigger pain that VS because of basically needing to grind mook sentients because the Mote Amp is utterly useless for Eidolon hunting whereas VS gives the player the Archgun deployer right out the gate for Profit-taker, sure you still need to mod the Archgun, but that's less of a pain more often than not than farming up intact sentient cores for the standing to buy a 111 amp (which also then needs Cetus Wisps which are ugh) so you can even remotely damage a Teralyst effectively.

The Ostron were better in my eyes because outside of Zaw arcanes you could comfortably stop at rank 3 and get most of the value and options for the Zaws along with gilding them. Whereas because of the need to hit rank 5 with SU players are actively discouraged from spending any standing on the way there which pushes back MOAs and Kitguns unless a player is willing to take the hit in standing and lost exchangeable materials.

And don't get me started on Debt-bonds....those things dropped so infrequently from Bounties that they had to introduce Ticker so that people could literally BUY THEIR RANK UP REQUIREMENTS. The Ostron requirements meanwhile were mostly random junk farmed from PoE with only a two instances of rare materials needed (5 murkray livers for rank 4 and one of each rare gem and 2 rare fish parts for rank 5) which is a HELL of a lot less a pain than Toroid and Atmo farming.

Really none of these 4 standing systems seem well designed to me because they keep tripping over themselves with their methodology and wind up being just a bloated grind that doesn't match the rewards at the end of it and in the case of SU/VS having to band-aid the progression with things like Debt-bond purchasing, purchasing systems for VS standing and the Exploiter Orb's hilarious drop rate of stuff.

[spirit_of_76]

On 2019-04-08 at 9:11 PM, XenMaster said:

Titania farming is better. It even unlock new mods drop from specter. But this standing required frame is bad. It shouldve been in the bounties. Or atleast quest based frame.

I found the baruk very easy to farm one you get the atmos systems with the newest orb fight standing is an easy farm.  in fact I prefer it to exterminate missions.  the biggest problem is the Atmos system drop rate.  since it is part of a system that you are already farming it is overall less of a grind than say syarn or mesa

[lennieplop60]

It's a replacement for the quests DE used to make. Now, instead of giving you a bit of lore and a fun time, you have to grind repetitively for hours, because the devs decided they'd rather release warframes every few weeks than put a lot of time and effort into 1 or 2 a year. Personally, I find this very disappointing, but with all the criticism this post has received, a lot of players don't seem to mind.

[Wolfdoggie]

On 2019-04-08 at 10:27 PM, llls1cKb0ylll said:

inb4 wisp is on ventkids top rank lul

I haven't even touched that yet. >.< Not really too interested either. RIP Wisp if that happened, lol.

[(PSN)GrandisSupernus]

On 2019-04-08 at 10:35 PM, Merrowen said:

Personally, I kind of agree with OP. Let me explain.

I don't mind a bit of work when we have to get a new frame. Especially when there's story involved. That turns the process of getting frame an an adventure, by allowing us to participate in game lore. So far, however, all the frames since umbra were devoid of story. Revenant had bits of it that didn't really qualify.

And it's a trend that is worrying me. According to devstream, DE claims that 'adding story to the frame would slow down new frame release'. I'm sure it would. However, do we need constant slew of new frames when they, themselves, don't add much to the game? It's not like frame selection in game isn't big enough already. And lets be honest, last two (hildryn and upcoming wisp) seem to draw heavily from designs of other games. It seems to me that art design team really needs a break to kick back and come up with some designs unique to this game.

Wisp does look like a character from a whole different game. She's like the Dark Sector version of a boss that they haven't converted into Warframe's style yet. Remember Frost's original concept art? She's like that. Only they never reached step two where they funnelled her into the Warframe design philosophy.

I'm getting concerned, too. While I do think Hildryn has enough of that techno-organic look of non-Prime Warframes (that I love and generally prefer), the upcoming designs like Wisp look... out of place. It's too far from Keith Thompson's more grody, diseased-looking designs (which, as a huge fan of his, I am of course biased towards). I think, after Wisp, they need to go back to the design phase and re-introduce that original flavour that they're getting farther and farther from, and leave those more off-the-wall designs for Deluxe skins. Remember this? https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/uploads/ae7cbaa131551a02627c14515e9dfad1.jpg It's one of those old design sketches for Warframe/Dark Sector where they were pinning down what a Warframe looked like.

Besides, it seems like the pace of Warframe's development has been accelerating and accelerating, and that's a problem, because every change to the game needs time to be tested and vetted by the players, whether it be a new game mode, piece of content, new weapon or Warframe, or even changes to the art design of the game. Without that time to see the results, they can't be sure that the game is moving in the right direction. Besides, I loved the quests to unlock new 'frames. They opened up the world of the Origin System and each had their own little stories to go along with it.

[Merrowen]

18 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

Dude, this is embarassing, stop.

Story is story, no amount of silly mental gymnastics is gonna change the meaning of the word.

Is it really that hard to admit you were wrong?

While I don't agree with you, I'll try to explain the story related issue you indicated.

Yes, putting story in a comic available either off site, in a paper form available for separate puchase, or in game as codex entry is, technically, a story. You are correct there.

The point where you go wrong is acknowledging that computer games, unlike other media, allow for interactive story, where player actively participates in the story arc, as opposed to passively reading about it.

I think it was you that said that octavia and harrow had 'little voiceovers, that's not a story'. I think that we can agree that there is a difference between reading a comic strip, and actively participating in a story presented in game. Judging by (again, I think that was you mentioning them, if not, my apologies) quoting second dream as a story, you do acknowledge that passive vs active storytelling distinction.

That's the core of a problem, I believe. Some people, like myself, will not consider a static comic strip a story in terms of warframe, simply because it's not interactive. As such, the reading is about something that we are uninvolved in, and that makes it quite a dry and uninteresting experience.

The rest is down to personal taste. Some people don't care about the story, and treat the game as a slot machine, with some weird story doodles drawn on the side, and the purpose of it all is to insert your time in, pull the lever and get the loot. Others, however, don't care about the loot as much as the story the game tells. I, myself, fall into that category. That's the reason why I find the trend of DE releasing new frames without any story whatsoever to be a detriment to my enjoyment of the game.

[jfhsanseiIII]

I honestly don’t see the problem with it.  Grinding rep with any of the factions is easily done in a rather short amount of time.  Even with the daily cap. If you don’t want to grind the rep then you don’t really want the frame.  I kind of feel the MR requirements need to be a little more restrictive as well though.  Maybe I’m just mean. 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, Merrowen said:

Some people, like myself, will not consider a static comic strip a story in terms of warframe, simply because it's not interactive. As such, the reading is about something that we are uninvolved in, and that makes it quite a dry and uninteresting experience.

Most of your points are well said. However I must disagree here.
A comic strip is indeed story & doesn't need to directly involve the player in order to be story.
Warframe's lore is quite deep & many stories take place without the player.
The History of Gara/Revenant/Chroma/Limbo/Inaros & etc are prime examples. The player is NOT involved in their past but we read & are told their stories.
Little Duck's past (This was covered in the Official Warframe Comic). The Lore unlocked via Cephalon Simaris, Codex Scans, & etc. All are lore & stories that we read.
Interaction is not required.
Where I do agree with you is that Lore needs to be: "in-Game" or both inside & outside the game.
(I am reminded of Destiny 1's & it's HORRIBLE Grimoire system. Where the bulk of story took place outside the game in little piecemeal cards that spoke in metaphors & poetry. So...no one knew what the hell was going on.)

However, I will say that seeing as Warframe has an in-game codex. It would behoove DE to add the comics that are Free to the Codex, & perhaps add a digital version of the Official Warframe comic issues (the one in stores) as perhaps a Plat purchase(s) in-game to unlock for the Codex.

[Loswaith]

The biggest issue i see putting frames behind the max syndicate rep is that when the prime version becomes available it will be simply far easier to get than the normal frame. 

This just devalues the core frames and doesn't really make the primes feel special, but an alternative (akin to a skin with buffs).

 

15 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

If there's nothing to work toward,there's no point in playing.

Given the point in playing is for the fun of it, whether you are working towards something or not. 
Sure, working towards something may be part of the fun for a player, but it is not really a good idea to just make players do some chores (that isn't usually fun).

The Warframes are the core fun of the game (as it stands) as the game-play (particularly missions) doesn't really have a whole lot of depth to engage players on.

[(PSN)shanncz]

This is interesting topic.. For me it is not big deal to put frame behind reputation grind IF that reputation grind is fun OR fluent. But it is NOT:

Ostron - there is only one viable option.. running bounties over and over like crazy (mining/finish are not very viable here, I got to Surah and I'm burned out)

Quills - you need sentient/eidolons cores BUT you have only MoteAmp, which is too week for Eidolons which are needed for fluent reputation gain. (I got Observer, 122amp just from farming wormalysts. And I still cannot guild my new amp. I should start Eidolons, but I'm burned out)

Vox solaris - I was farming toroids only once solo, 2 toroids in ~20minutes, not fun at all (I'm still Neutral)

Solaris united -  this is maybe only one which I find ok if you don't mind mining. You can do 3 things - bounties, mining, buying/selling bonds. And reputation goes up..

 

I guess there should be some easier access to Quills/Vox standings.. Some smaller Eidolons, smaller Orbs. It's not problem to lock warframes behind standings, but content behind standing (Exploiter Orb fight etc..)

Edited April 11, 2019 by (PS4)shanncz

[HugintheCrow]

11 hours ago, Merrowen said:

I think it was you that said that octavia and harrow had 'little voiceovers, that's not a story'.

This is the first time I've made a comment in this discussion. So, like, you missed by a long shot.

Edited April 11, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[(PSN)Limorkil]

Don’t mind some frames requiring some work to get.  Plenty of frames I don’t have but already I feel like I don’t need more. 

Don't mind reputation grind.  Prefer it to random drop chance.  

I would prefer more story or a quest with each frame though.  I don’t see the need to constantly push new frames out.  It’s not sustainable.  I’d rather DE take the time to come up with cool concepts for frames and do a quest.  Two decent frames per year would be fine.  DE could even charge more platinum because most frames are actually rather cheap, particularly since people wait for the plat store discounts (on PS4).

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

On 2019-04-10 at 3:41 AM, HugintheCrow said:

Dude, this is embarassing, stop.

Story is story, no amount of silly mental gymnastics is gonna change the meaning of the word.

Is it really that hard to admit you were wrong?

No, all things you mention are lore. Lore doesn't equal story. Story is what you experience

 

[Air-mage]

On 2019-04-09 at 4:35 AM, Merrowen said:

Personally, I kind of agree with OP. Let me explain.

I don't mind a bit of work when we have to get new frame. Especially when there's story involved. That turns the process of getting frame an an adventure, by allowing us to participate in game lore.

So far, however, all the frames since umbra were devoid of story. Revenant had bits of it that didn't really qualify.

And it's a trend that is worrying me. According to devstream, DE claims that 'adding story to the frame would slow down new frame release'. I'm sure it would. However, do we need constant slew of new frames when they, themselves, don't add much to the game? It's not like frame selection in game isn't big enough already. And lets be honest, last two (hildryn and upcoming wisp) seem to draw heavily from designs of other games. It seems to me that art design team really needs a break to kick back and come up with some designs unique to this game.

Also, all the recent frames were hidden behind significant grind walls. Trying to break through these in a 'gotta catch them all pokem...warframons!' game loop that warframe started to push is recently is starting to be tiresome.

or they could just use fan-designs, and honor their makers

[Elessara1]

On 2019-04-11 at 12:51 AM, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Most of your points are well said. However I must disagree here.
A comic strip is indeed story & doesn't need to directly involve the player in order to be story.
Warframe's lore is quite deep & many stories take place without the player.
The History of Gara/Revenant/Chroma/Limbo/Inaros & etc are prime examples. The player is NOT involved in their past but we read & are told their stories.
Little Duck's past (This was covered in the Official Warframe Comic). The Lore unlocked via Cephalon Simaris, Codex Scans, & etc. All are lore & stories that we read.
Interaction is not required.
Where I do agree with you is that Lore needs to be: "in-Game" or both inside & outside the game.
(I am reminded of Destiny 1's & it's HORRIBLE Grimoire system. Where the bulk of story took place outside the game in little piecemeal cards that spoke in metaphors & poetry. So...no one knew what the hell was going on.)

However, I will say that seeing as Warframe has an in-game codex. It would behoove DE to add the comics that are Free to the Codex, & perhaps add a digital version of the Official Warframe comic issues (the one in stores) as perhaps a Plat purchase(s) in-game to unlock for the Codex.

The problem I personally have with any lore/story (whichever one wants to call it) that is presented outside of the game is that one has to know it's there.  I started this game last March, well after the release of some of these frames, such as Harrow, that have outside additions.  There is nothing anywhere in game saying, oh by the way there's this comic that talks about Rell.  So, I agree that if they want to present lore/story behind a frame but not give it an actual quest, then yes they should put it in the Codex or at the very least reference it somewhere in game.

[MA6PIE]

As far as new frame stories go, I love them as much as the next tenno, but it's just not worth it for the studio. They will toil for months at considerable expense and we will finish it in, what, an two hours? And then back to square 1, looking for content. At least new frames are 'replayable'.

 

As for putting new frames before faction standing, I do not mind at all. Studio is struggling providing players with things to do already so it's understandable. If those frames are 'worth it', I don't think it matters much. Grind if you really want the frame, or don't.

[Argenex]

Syndicate Grind is honestly better than "Kill this boss / mission 12390721336 times until you get Systems" so you can go on with your life.

Or run spy missions, get every vault perfectly, and maaaaaaaybe you'll get an ivara part... tee hee no you won't! HAHAAHA!

 

I prefer syndicate grind, because at least that way I can see the top of the goddamned hill I have to climb.

[ElKayJae]

I think we do need frames locked behind rep. If there isn't what's the point of repping up?

[Merrowen]

2 hours ago, ElKayJae said:

I think we do need frames locked behind rep. If there isn't what's the point of repping up?

You'd think that the point of it, and obvious one, would be 'Because it's fun for variety of reasons' instead of 'because it's my third job and I need that paycheck I'll get at the end'?

If the game is designed in such a way as to kill any samblance of fun in its quest for monetary gain squeezed out of people, we start to have a real problem, methinks...

[Argenex]

48 minutes ago, Merrowen said:

You'd think that the point of it, and obvious one, would be 'Because it's fun for variety of reasons' instead of 'because it's my third job and I need that paycheck I'll get at the end'?

If the game is designed in such a way as to kill any samblance of fun in its quest for monetary gain squeezed out of people, we start to have a real problem, methinks...

Right, but as I posted, its more of a chore to not know where the end is, with RNG, than to actually say "Ok, in 4 days, I can save up enough rep with standing limits, and get this."

That is superior in every way, to NOT KNOWING WHEN or IF you will get the item you are trying to get.

Do I find any of the syndicate grinding fun, not really, but it's just better than never knowing what I'm going to get, because in that scenario, I could be looking at weeks, versus days. It took me several weeks to farm up equinox, for example. I ended up hating it with a passion and was down to "ok I'll do this for an hour every day, maybe someday the 1 part I need will drop."

Took me 2 weeks. I would call it my worst experience thus far, except that for a full 3 days straight, a friend and I did nothing but Balor Farboofian to get the stupid Imperator Vandal Reciever... took us 3 days straight, 136 runs before it finally dropped. We weren't even happy when it finally dropped, we were worn out (we did nap inbetween sessions), we were so horribly worn out, we were like "Thank God I can Close warframe now."

^--- That right there, is why RNG is TRASH and is a CRUTCH of any game design, period. It's why you get smart and use a SHUFFLEBAG system, instead of torturing your players with your inability to be creative; your players are your clients, don't you want them to be having fun, in a game, which is entertainment?

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

On 2019-04-08 at 9:05 PM, Hadzao said:

Ok, thanks DE.

baruuk and hildryn are locked behind the dumb Soloid farming toroid thing, for Tenno, how many resources, how many syndicates, does one game need?

if you want my advice, just run the 2nd mission of the exploiter orb over and over, its the fastest, and sometimes yields vega toroids

but the orb itself drops a 6000 rep toroid thing

[SenariousNex]

Just because you said that each wisp part, will be 120k rep cost 1 from each, cetus/quills/little duck/fortuna reps.