Dear Developers, low drop chances won't keep players engaged

[Alselein]

Hello there, this is my story of trying to farm the saturn six mask. 

For the past few weeks, I have been trying to farm the Wolf for his sweet new operator mask, which has an abysmal 2% drop chance. During this time, I have seen the Wolf 2 or 3 times every day thourhout my daily 2-3 hours of play, there was also a day when he appeared 7 times, and I defeated him in every encounter. To this point, I have received almost 2 sets of his hammer, 2 tempo royals, 3 target aqcuireds, but no mask.

I know DE and the community already had the talk about ephemera drop chances, and how they said they were going to increase these in a future update, but as it turns out, there is another little cosmetic item which needs an increase to its drop chance.

I think both DE and the community are aware that cosmetics are the most sought after items in a game like warframe. As a result of this, the developers lock them behind insanely low drop rates to keep you playing their game, or make them only acquireable through events or real money payments, but as it turns out, what they achieve with this, is the exact opposite. My playtime of the game during the last few days has been reduced to maybe like an hour, or not even that, because of how soul crushing and hopeless it feels trying to get this. And we are talking about a cosmetic item, with no gameplay advantage, that you don't see most of the playing because its for you operator, that is not tradeable for some reason, or purchasable via platinum. The last time an items availability was this terrible-excluding ephemeras- is probably when vengeful revenant, the sword stance was introduced, with its under 1% drop chance. But that I was fine with, because it still is probably the best sword stance in the game, so it offers you an advantage, and it was tradeable, and maybe transmuteable, but im not sure. 

To get to my point, this is exactly how you can make your players just not want to play your game, and to anyone asking why I don't do something else, is because I have been palying for 5 years now, and other than leveling some mr fodder weapons, there isn't much to do in the game for me, so I try to farm the new cosmetics. How this can be improved: just make it have an individual 5% chance of dropping, every time you kill the Wolf, like the smoke ephemera has with the Stalker, so even if you get an item, you could still get the mask. Or make it a prestige item that can only drop if you've killed the Wolf 50 or 100 times but then its certain to drop, or make every kill increase its chance to drop. Or just make it tradeable, so if somebody is not interested in it -which as I see it is most of the playerbase, because nobody is talking about it- could just sell it to someone who really wants it, like I do. Although, even I were to get it now, I don't think it'd give me even the slightest bit of joy or accomplishment, because of how long and terrible of an experience it was trying to get it.

I've never been hating on the game, but this issue must be addressed. I love warframe and I'll probably never quit playing it, even if they don't fix this. But if they want to keep their players happy, and give them a sense of accomplishment while playing their game, this has to change, not only for these items, but for all future ones that'll have  drop rates like these, to make them "rare".

 

 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

The wolf will be very common by the end of the season, or so DE says so. As for the mask itself, it's a cosmetic. If you somehow burn yourself farming it it's mostly on you. I'd understand it about the Sledge but even that one, for how hard it is to farm, is tradable since it's a gear item.

We asked for exclusives in some way, we want to feel special. Well, here it is. Cosmetics locked behind insane grind and rng, so that only a small part of us get it. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[bad4youLT]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

The wolf will be very common by the end of the season, or so DE says so.

DE on last devstream said after WoSs ends Wolf will become rare encounter

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

4 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

DE on last devstream said after WoSs ends Wolf will become rare encounter

Yes. Which is significantly better than not being available at all. A new assassin or other kind of boss will emerge after all, most likely, and they don't want the wolf to be the spotlight.

I also believe there'll be some way to spawn Wolf, but don't quote me on that. I was half bored and asleep during last devstream.

[Voltage]

Everyone enjoys the game differently. I'm a minority for enjoying low drop chances, because I enjoy playing the game. I keep grinding until what I want is in my inventory. Now, the major issue these days in my eyes is a portion of players want to have cool rewards, but they don't want to play the game for it. This will be apparent when the Eidolon Ephemera releases. Unless the challenge is super easy, people will complain that it will be unreachable for that time investment. Low drop chances yield that same complaint. It's either "I'm unlucky, this should be raised" or "This takes too long". Both complaints revolve around "I have to play the game more than 2 days, and I want that drop now". It's not designed for players to have all 6 Ephemera within the same week. It's one of those collectible cosmetics that is supposed to take you a while. Pace yourself; don't push yourself.

DE should not cater to players who don't want to play. In fact, they should be sticking to the numbers they implement when things release and not constantly reduce grind later. If drop chances are to be high, they should do that on patch releases, not down the road and disrespect the time anyone else put in to get that item when it came out on a lower drop chance. Lato and Braton Vandal in ESO are still low chances, and players have accepted that. However, with recent updates, players know they can push the developers into increasing chances if they are loud enough about it. That's concerning as DE then caters to a group of players who don't really want to play Warframe, they just want to have all the rewards from new missions. I hope we have some interesting rewards that are hard to get in the Gas City rework, and they stay hard to get.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Voltage

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Now, the major issue these days in my eyes is a portion of players want to have cool rewards, but they don't want to play the game for it.

Some people - like myself - don't mind playing the game - but believe (rightfully IMHO) that playing the game should reward you for it.  As such, I would have been fine if things like the Blazing Ephemera were awarded upon 100 runs of Wave 8 ESO, or Get to wave 16 x number of times.  However on the 140th run to wave 8 to be no closer to getting it than on the first run feels like crap.  Getting it on the 141st run, and finding out that people in the squad got it on their FIRST run, feels like crap.  I'm glad that DE at least stated they learned from this and won't be going down this path with future ephemera.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

If drop chances are to be high, they should do that on patch releases, not down the road and disrespect the time anyone else put in to get that item when it came out on a lower drop chance

Agreed - I think it was pretty crappy of them to drop so many resources from Exploiter/Thumpers etc after so many ppl actually put in the work to do it under the old grind.  And removing crafting from arcanes after so many grinded those out.  It was stated by the community at release it was oppressive, and they did nothing for so long.  It should have been addressed immediately.  Waiting this long feels like a slap in the face to people who put the time in.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Lato and Braton Vandal in ESO are still low chances, and players have accepted that

These are different than ephemera in that they are tradeable.

 

And one final note on "play the game" - I've played the game.  Hundreds of hours since NW was released - and only seen him about 10 times - and haven't gotten a full set of sledge - in fact only got 2 parts.  Now -  because its tradeable I've acquired it from a friend, but the RNG of him even spawning + the RNG of the drop chance is pure BS.   I want a system where I am rewarded for effort - not rewarded for RNG.  Maximum effort should mean maximum reward.  

[DerGreif2]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Everyone enjoys the game differently. I'm a minority for enjoying low drop chances, because I enjoy playing the game.

It is annoying. Its pure luck and ephemeras should be an accomplishment! They said that they would be goals for vets! Its not. A goal should not be "farm the stalker 1000 times" it should be "kill the stalker with War or broken war only" or instead of "kill the exploiter orb 1000 times" it should be "kill the exploiter orb solo within 20 min". That are challenges. You should try 1000 times to finish the challenge and not do it 1000 times to play roulette. Its extremely bad. Dont protect this behavior.

[DebrisFlow]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Now, the major issue these days in my eyes is a portion of players want to have cool rewards, but they don't want to play the game for it.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Pace yourself; don't push yourself.

Can i point out a thing? Because what you said seems to me an incorrect generalization: maybe this portion of players doesn't want to play that specific part of the game that is objectively mind-numbing, uninspired, unoriginal and never changing. Like ESO for example. Or where everything is so scripted that already at the 3rd time you feel the repetition headache. Like Exploiter orb. How can you blame them, when the other ephemeras are behind diversified opportunities (arbitrations > different missions, stalker > different missions)? It's not a question of pace, it's a question of true disappointment for some game modes that are objectively bad, with respect to the potential of diversification that the game can offer. So, please, dont' say that they don't want to play the game at all.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

DE should not cater to players who don't want to play

Agree, that's legitimate. If you offer a game that is actually a game. Because with the cases that i mentioned before (ESO, Exploiter orb) it seems that DE is catering to workers in a assembly line, not players.

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

I hope we have some interesting rewards that are hard to get in the Gas City rework, and they stay hard to get.

I hope this too. And by "hard to get" i mean behind a gate of genuine difficulty (something we already have), based on skill and tactic. And by "they stay hard to get" i mean behind diversified and unpredictable difficulties that require adapting. Surely not behind pure RNG.

[(XBOX)Droidyurlookn4]

I want a system where I am rewarded for effort - not rewarded for RNG.  Maximum effort should mean maximum rew^^^^^^^^^ exactly what I wanted to say. 

and to those that put in the time when others thought it was to ridiculous to attempt. If it gets changed later. It's not disrespectful to them. It's their decision to do it. At he time must not have thought it was too bad. Exclusive and random shouldn't be in the same sentence to signify a reward based on effort.thr simple fact some people got it on accident first attempt and those that try over and over again. Literally contradicts effort based rewards. If you need exclusive s to feel better about yourself. Stop playing video games and make something of ones, self that's rewarding and based off effort. Rng shouldnt be the only way to determine drop. Regardless of the means to how it will be farmed. It will be farmed. Nekros and ivara are loot frames if you build them that way.

But you can't use em when it counts. Ivara can't even use sleep arrows to hunt anymore she's the huntress hahahahah Or abilities not being available why base a game of that concept alone and than nullify it against challenges you want to be tough. That needs to be fixed over drop rates. If you only play for rewards you'll stop playing once you get em all.its called warframe not rewards

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by (XB1)Droidyurlookn4
Bit was meant to be not

[Voltage]

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Maximum effort should mean maximum reward.  

 

10 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

I hope this too. And by "hard to get" i mean behind a gate of genuine difficulty (something we already have), based on skill and tactic. And by "they stay hard to get" i mean behind diversified and unpredictable difficulties that require adapting. Surely not behind pure RNG.

I completely agree. What my post was trying to say is unfortunately the vocal players on Reddit/Forums don't have this mindset. Look at the way the Kuva Survival Nightwave challenge was received. People got very upset that they had to do an optional one hour survival, and now with Season 2, DE has catered to that complaint by reducing it in half...

I really hope maximum effort rewards itself, and Disruption looks very promising given the intentions [DE]Rebecca discussed on Devstream 127. However, I am still bothered at how the mindset of keeping the exact same rewards but dumbing down grind/effort has killed Cetus progression and leaves Fortuna without depth and too easy to complete. The only way DE can stretch out updates without grind is through time gates which feel worse because your effort has a cap on it and a set pace...

30 minutes ago, DerGreif2 said:

It is annoying. Its pure luck and ephemeras should be an accomplishment! They said that they would be goals for vets! Its not. A goal should not be "farm the stalker 1000 times" it should be "kill the stalker with War or broken war only" or instead of "kill the exploiter orb 1000 times" it should be "kill the exploiter orb solo within 20 min". That are challenges. You should try 1000 times to finish the challenge and not do it 1000 times to play roulette. Its extremely bad. Dont protect this behavior.

Forcing gear choices on players is unfun. Challenges should encourage you to think outside the box, not restrict your gear choice. Forcing solo is awful and should not be a challenge. I would much rather have progressive grind over RNG, but the majority of players will ensure that the challenge is not very hard or long. At this point, I'm happy with either as long as DE sticks to the numbers they release with and double check before shipping. If the next rare drop is 1% or 25%, as long as that's the final value, I wouldn't mind. Changing drops months after is annoying.

[DerGreif2]

52 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Forcing gear choices on players is unfun. Challenges should encourage you to think outside the box, not restrict your gear choice. Forcing solo is awful and should not be a challenge. I would much rather have progressive grind over RNG, but the majority of players will ensure that the challenge is not very hard or long. At this point, I'm happy with either as long as DE sticks to the numbers they release with and double check before shipping. If the next rare drop is 1% or 25%, as long as that's the final value, I wouldn't mind. Changing drops months after is annoying

Challenges should only doable with the most optimized gear and frames. Thats why its called a challenge. If something is difficult there is one way to do it the securest way. Thats a fact. To solo Eidolons or Orbs is difficult for the most people and that is the point: they are not for the vast majority of players. Otherwise you could just slap a platinum price on it or a roulette (like it is in the moment). Also there is no progressive RNG grind. The chances are the same every time and dont rise over time. A newby with luck could get it in the first run and a vet would give up after 100 runs. Is that fair or equals "challenging" for you? Its the best way to burn out players by slapping RNG on it to acquire. And changing after months is annoying? Dude? Thats called fixing, tweaking or changing in games in general. That RNG BS is also the reason why people are so pissed about the wolf. Its RNG (if he shows up) over RNG (if you get a part) over RNG (that you get the right part. Why not make him an actual boss and let people grind him (fair RNG) or give us the weapon after we beat him and make him extra hard. RNG is not a way to reward players. It never was and it never will be. People need a goal or a bar so that they can work on it. Not pure RNG.

[SordidDreams]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

The wolf will be very common by the end of the season, or so DE says so.

Um, it is the end of the season already. They said it ends May 15th or so. We've had two months of it, now we're down to the last week and a half.

[(XBOX)Nikolai420]

Rewards like ephemera and such should be either skill based or grind based...either conquer an insurmountable challenge to get it or get it after doing things a set number of times..not rng based..as far as the exploiter and thumpers are concerned that is totally unfair to the "vets" and others who took the time to gather all these materials AND grind for the standing..as it us now an mr 2 can be carried to get all the mats they need then just get to the requisite level for that faction and buy the bps for say amps and just craft em..its a slap in the face to people who actually took the time to gather all this stuff..same goes for arcanes from factions..took lots of grinding for some...easy pickins for casuals and newer players..and dont get me started on tri caps..low mr/no gear players by all means should be able to do teralysts they need it to level up the quills..but tri caps should be mastery locked til players are about mr 15 or so where they at least have a decent frame and amp and possibly a good sniper..we need mr locked content with rewards to boot so veterans arent left out in the dust while DE caters to newer players....make it happen DE plzz..end rant...

[Anduvriel]

I did play a lot during Nightwave, lvl46 almost and have seen wolf 10 times actively looking for him. 9 rewards were mods that i have in hundreds. 1 sledge head and thats it. Day before yesterday i bought the weapon. It is my first and only mr giving item in the game that i have obtained by buying and not farming (mr27) which "was" my personal goal. I did it because there is only a week remaining and i dont trust my awesome luck that when he gets even more rare (or disapeares completely) i will get the rarest parts.. and i didnt want to pay 1-2kp someone in few months, might as well do it today. 

Whenever they introduce new boss i dread that it will have those hated stupid rng mr weapons that will leave me in despair for years of war with broken myself - buy and brake my rules or stay like i stay in forever despair(lessness).. 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Um, it is the end of the season already. They said it ends May 15th or so. We've had two months of it, now we're down to the last week and a half.

They meant the last few days, not weeks.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

They meant the last few days, not weeks.

That kinda defeats the point of Nightwave not requiring players to be online at one particular time, doesn't it?

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That kinda defeats the point of Nightwave not requiring players to be online at one particular time, doesn't it?

I would agree, yes. But I see this as DE making up for the near-zero chances overall from the event. I mean, they implied that the wolf would become very common last devstream towards the end of this season, and that the wolf will still be available afterwards. But I'm still a bit skeptical since DE said on the beggining that the chances would improve and the wolf would become more and more common, when it seems what they truly meant was "the wolf will become a nudge less rare).

So I guess we'll wait and see. Even if I already have everything I wanted from season 1.

[Els236]

I feel the need to chime in here.

It's not just cosmetics that are put behind ridiculous grindy RNG walls. It's Warframes and weapons too! 

Nidus, Khora and Ivara immediately come to mind. I shouldn't have to spend an hour on a quest (for Nidus BP) then days or even weeks playing the same mission over and over and over in the hopes of getting these frames' parts.

Same thing goes for Lato and Braton Vandal. We all know they aren't top-tier weapons and are only useful for MR fodder, yet they are locked behind some seriously bad RNG, high-tier/late-game missions. 

 

It's just stupid. 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Sorry OP

but there's plenty of psychological research that suggests the opposite

that having unreliable rewards actually increases addiction 

lookup 'variable ratio schedule reinforcement'

 

 

(DE likes to call it 'engagement' since addiction is a bad word...)

 

[SordidDreams]

13 hours ago, Els236 said:

I feel the need to chime in here.

It's not just cosmetics that are put behind ridiculous grindy RNG walls. It's Warframes and weapons too! 

Nidus, Khora and Ivara immediately come to mind. I shouldn't have to spend an hour on a quest (for Nidus BP) then days or even weeks playing the same mission over and over and over in the hopes of getting these frames' parts.

Same thing goes for Lato and Braton Vandal. We all know they aren't top-tier weapons and are only useful for MR fodder, yet they are locked behind some seriously bad RNG, high-tier/late-game missions. 

 

It's just stupid. 

Difference is, there's actually a reason why frames and guns are behind bad RNG, namely the fact that you can buy them. Those hard-to-get items 'encourage' players to spend money on the game. That's how the f2p business model works in a nutshell, you deliberately put an annoyance into the game and then give players the option to pay money to bypass that annoyance. And yes, that does mean you're deliberately making the game worse, which is why I'm very much on the fence about f2p.

The problem with the Wolf mask is that you can't buy it. The ridiculous RNG serves no purpose there, it makes the game worse for no benefit to anybody, neither players nor devs. The only reason I can think of for why they'd make non-monetized aspects of the game as grindy as monetized ones is to make the latter not stand out so much as a cash grab from the former. Which means that the f2p model si damaging the quality of the game not only in directly monetized areas but everywhere else as well. Not a very encouraging thought.

Edited May 7, 2019 by SordidDreams

[arimanari]

And here is I, who have killed the wolf dozens of times and I never got anything. Anything! ❤️

[arimanari]

" Those hard-to-get items 'encourage' players to spend money on the game. "

That's not how it works, especially if you simply can't afford it, have no credit card, no parents to pay for it, etc etc. As i've said it before, by the same logic we can assume that homeless people should be able to buy homes if put under pressure.

[Steel_Rook]

23 hours ago, Voltage said:

Now, the major issue these days in my eyes is a portion of players want to have cool rewards, but they don't want to play the game for it.

And what about people who want to play the game WITH the cool rewards? When Atmospheric Archguns first became a thing, my motivation to play wasn't GETTING my Atmospheric Archgun, but rather having AND USING an Atmospheric Archgun in content after having earned it. Locking that behind Orb Heist bounties just made the process of obtaining one longer and more tedious as I had to grind out a few levels with Solairs United. There's this bizarre logical construct in MMOs that items only have value before the player earns them and lose that value once obtained. If a player had everything - the logic goes - that player would just get bored and leave because there's no value in having stuff, only in earning it. The implication here is the game itself is so dreadfully boring and unengaging that nobody would play it without the Skinner box of rewards.

Well, I disagree. When a new weapon that I actually like comes out, what I look forward to isn't wasting hours of my life earning it, but rather having a new toy to play around with. I love the Opticore, so obviously I wanted the Opticore Vandal when that came out. Not because I enjoyed closing Fissures - I didn't, it's a terrible game mode - but because I wanted an improved or at least different version of the toy I already liked. And it turned out to be a lot of fun! The same was true when I read about Inaros. His core design appealed to me, even if the quest to earn him was pretty dumb. In 1500 hours, I've used him over 60% of the time because I like my toy just that damn much. Sure, there's value in pacing progression and staggering rewards. I'm not denying that. But this idea that people want rewards but don't want to play the game is silly.

I want to play Warframe because I like Warframe. Preferably, I want to do so using cool-looking, fun toys along the way. I'm not looking for "pride and accomplishment," I'm looking for a fun game. This over-focus on reward structures to the exclusion of everything else create the bizarre situation of pursuing rewards, but then not actually enjoying them once they arrive. That seems counter-productive to me.

[AndyBeans]

45 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

And what about people who want to play the game WITH the cool rewards? When Atmospheric Archguns first became a thing, my motivation to play wasn't GETTING my Atmospheric Archgun, but rather having AND USING an Atmospheric Archgun in content after having earned it. Locking that behind Orb Heist bounties just made the process of obtaining one longer and more tedious as I had to grind out a few levels with Solairs United. There's this bizarre logical construct in MMOs that items only have value before the player earns them and lose that value once obtained. If a player had everything - the logic goes - that player would just get bored and leave because there's no value in having stuff, only in earning it. The implication here is the game itself is so dreadfully boring and unengaging that nobody would play it without the Skinner box of rewards.

Well, I disagree. When a new weapon that I actually like comes out, what I look forward to isn't wasting hours of my life earning it, but rather having a new toy to play around with. I love the Opticore, so obviously I wanted the Opticore Vandal when that came out. Not because I enjoyed closing Fissures - I didn't, it's a terrible game mode - but because I wanted an improved or at least different version of the toy I already liked. And it turned out to be a lot of fun! The same was true when I read about Inaros. His core design appealed to me, even if the quest to earn him was pretty dumb. In 1500 hours, I've used him over 60% of the time because I like my toy just that damn much. Sure, there's value in pacing progression and staggering rewards. I'm not denying that. But this idea that people want rewards but don't want to play the game is silly.

I want to play Warframe because I like Warframe. Preferably, I want to do so using cool-looking, fun toys along the way. I'm not looking for "pride and accomplishment," I'm looking for a fun game. This over-focus on reward structures to the exclusion of everything else create the bizarre situation of pursuing rewards, but then not actually enjoying them once they arrive. That seems counter-productive to me.

I think you're taking the phrase "people want rewards but don't want to play the game" too literally. It's hyperbole, it doesn't actually mean they don't want to play, it means they don't want to do what's required to earn the rewards.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, AndyBeans said:

I think you're taking the phrase "people want rewards but don't want to play the game" too literally. It's hyperbole, it doesn't actually mean they don't want to play, it means they don't want to do what's required to earn the rewards.

Sure, I get that much. My point is I don't see much of a problem with people not wanting to "do the work." I'm of the opinion that the point of having cool toys is actually playing with them, rather than the effort of getting them. Warframe in general has this problem where by the time I complete a task and reap its rewards, it's time to junk them and work on the next task. The way MR works is particularly egregious: if I choose to play with my maxed-out weapon then I don't make progress, but if I choose to make progress then I don't get to play with my favourite toys. I love my Opticore Vandal but I don't get to play with it a lot because I need to level up a bunch of other weapons I actually hate.

Again, there's this belief that letting people have what they want will in some way damage their experience and that having "goals" is the only way to stay invested. I feel exactly the opposite. Having what I want is when I enjoy the game, and actually having stuff to do with it is what keeps me around. Throwing Vaulted Relics back into circulation doesn't give me more stuff to do. It just offers more rewards for stuff I was already doing. In fact, the removal of Alerts damaged my enjoyment of the game quite substantially because they were an easy way to have the game pick my next mission for me - something Nightwave doesn't do.

In short, I feel Warframe needs to focus less on grind and time sinks keeping players from having the cool guns they want and more on giving us opportunities to actually use them.