Should DE follow bungie's footsteps on balancing for endgame?

[844448]

5 minutes ago, Knight_Ex said:

.....hard and challenging in warframe? please continue o_o

Oh, you already know, about this complaints from community about everything is too ez and need something harder and complaint when they get it

[thor_sten]

Am 18.5.2019 um 07:09 schrieb 844448:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

To avoid the sh1tstorm and as a compromise: Perhaps they could do something Conclave-like, i.e. making the rebalanced skills/stats a separate "set" compared to the normal ones. Thus giving players that want a challenging mode the option to switch to an "iron man nightmare" mode, where they are just matched with like-minded players, while giving DE the chance to experiment with the rebalancing without the need to touch the current "balance" of powers in the rest of the game.

[Ikyr0]

I just watched Bungie's ViDoc, and i'll say IF they deliver an FPS with mmo/rpg elements, a good story, an actual endgame (i.e. raids, dungeons, etc), and a decent pvp experience, i'll definitely be playing. Hard to tell if I'll stop playing WF, but the brainless looter shooter mechanics are getting quite a bit stale.

[844448]

19 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

I just watched Bungie's ViDoc, and i'll say IF they deliver an FPS with mmo/rpg elements, a good story, an actual endgame (i.e. raids, dungeons, etc), and a decent pvp experience, i'll definitely be playing. Hard to tell if I'll stop playing WF, but the brainless looter shooter mechanics are getting quite a bit stale.

one thing though, we're thanos when compared to other game characters, but it's far from brainless when you have these status/crit/power calculations

[GABRIEL0296]

i remember watching a video a while back where the person claimed how SOME of the warframe community is stupid, instead asking for tougher content from the devs they want everything to be nerfed to get FAKE difficulty... Now I know where he got that impression... Iv found the source of that stupidity!

 

On a side note.. warframe's whole purpose is to feel powerful.. its supposed to be like (2000 kills in 1 hour) for example... in destiny you dont get 2000 kills an hour..

[844448]

26 minutes ago, GABRIEL0296 said:

i remember watching a video a while back where the person claimed how SOME of the warframe community is stupid, instead asking for tougher content from the devs they want everything to be nerfed to get FAKE difficulty... Now I know where he got that impression... Iv found the source of that stupidity!

 

On a side note.. warframe's whole purpose is to feel powerful.. its supposed to be like (2000 kills in 1 hour) for example... in destiny you dont get 2000 kills an hour..

We're basically gods so what kind of challenge you can have as gods? Since people cry something is too hard when we have something slightly tougher and demand the nerf

A big dilemma here

[Guest]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

We're basically gods so what kind of challenge you can have as gods? Since people cry something is too hard when we have something slightly tougher and demand the nerf

Look at the recent threads on the Corpus Spy Sortie

It is not even harder, just different layout. Already people want it removed.

I mean I won't complain if I get to go back to vanilla vaults with no brain needed...

[Ikyr0]

4 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Look at the recent threads on the Corpus Spy Sortie

It is not even harder, just different layout. Already people want it removed.

I mean I won't complain if I get to go back to vanilla vaults with no brain needed...

they really have to stop listening to the vocal minority of morons. that's DE's main problem imo.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ikyr0

[844448]

3 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Look at the recent threads on the Corpus Spy Sortie

It is not even harder, just different layout. Already people want it removed.

I mean I won't complain if I get to go back to vanilla vaults with no brain needed...

See? I have 2 ideas for something resembling a challenge stirring up in my brain to the point of hurting my brain constantly but I can't release them because it would be "too hard"

It's really a vortex in here, almost unable to think straight

[Tricky5hift]

I think DE came very close to an actually challenging endgame with Arbitration missions.

Tough enemies, 1 life, and decent rewards albeit with rather stingy drop chances.

I thoroughly enjoyed running Arbitration missions because it really pushed you to the limit of how powerful you can be. We all have our idea of a perfect build but before we never really got to test them to their full capability. I feel like Arbitration missions really allowed that.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

I think DE came very close to an actually challenging endgame with Arbitration missions.

Tough enemies, 1 life, and decent rewards albeit with rather stingy drop chances.

I thoroughly enjoyed running Arbitration missions because it really pushed you to the limit of how powerful you can be. We all have our idea of a perfect build but before we never really got to test them to their full capability. I feel like Arbitration missions really allowed that.

But then they added revives!

[Tricky5hift]

16 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

But then they added revives!

Yeah that was a bit disappointing.

[spirit_of_76]

On 2019-05-17 at 10:09 PM, 844448 said:

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

chroma needs a rework no a nerf.  (his 2 & 3 would be nerfed but brought in line with rhino and Oberon)

On 2019-05-17 at 10:09 PM, 844448 said:

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

agreed but ESO would need changes it is currently only practical to do with a Saryn.  you can use a Excal with a Valk to a similar effect but it is not as good and harder to pull off.  

On 2019-05-17 at 10:09 PM, 844448 said:

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

I like the suund of this but I like playing Oberon and Valk (and now wisp) because they can support and help the team, however they currently need a buff if they are to me of much use.  Oberon on his own does not have quite enough healing and Valk gives % armor if she game DR or flat armor then she would be a better support wisp is almost purfect as a suport frame with a good and synergistic heal good CC and decent speed boost.  her only problem is that she doen't stack with her self (but does stack with Oberon making both frames better together)

many frames need buff and nerfs but it must be done through reworks and game changes not welp mesa now does half of the damage she used to.  that will be hard to do but better for the game in the long run.  as of right now they need to pick a frame in each category and balance to that frame support would be wisp, tank would be Valk, ect.  each frame roughly fits in one or two RPG classes and that should be used to their benefit when trying to attain balance but when you need to add 4 frames a year with 2 major content releases per year it can be difficult to do.  

[Brynslustafir]

Hell no.

[Nighteyezzz]

Nope!!

 

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

No.

[SenorClipClop]

You're hitting things pretty on the head, but...

On 2019-05-18 at 1:50 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

I'm pretty annoyed by every elite/boss-type enemy immediately getting some BS immunity to powers, status procs, and eventually armor-stripping effects like Shattering Impact/Corrosive Projection/etc.

 

On 2019-05-18 at 1:50 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

these tools are just plain game-breaking so DE finds it more convenient to simply turn them off whenever they actually make a serious difference (y'know, rather than just letting us overkill hapless mooks by 20x instead of 10x)

What are you complaining about here? DE totally lets us overkill basic enemy units (and that's most of them) with whatever silly methods we like. Those are the mooks. Other rarer, more elite enemies have counter-Tenno measures so that they feel different to fight, portray some depth in enemy capabilities, and ideally ask us to mix up our playstyle, customizing to better deal with the variations in enemies. If literally every enemy in the game were easily defeated by Warframe powers alone, for example, this game would turn into a Mesa-based idle game for iPhone and Android.

[--DSP--Jetstream]

Should just simply make the enemy has more hp when more people in the squad, like every 4 player team based game ever.
Thats the simplest way to add some sort of balance so no "1 guy press 4 and other 3 afk" thing because enemies are stronger in full squad and team contribution is needed.
but heh, seems people who play warframe really just wants easy wins so thats not gonna happens

[DiabolusUrsus]

11 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You're hitting things pretty on the head, but...

 

What are you complaining about here? DE totally lets us overkill basic enemy units (and that's most of them) with whatever silly methods we like. Those are the mooks. Other rarer, more elite enemies have counter-Tenno measures so that they feel different to fight, portray some depth in enemy capabilities, and ideally ask us to mix up our playstyle, customizing to better deal with the variations in enemies. If literally every enemy in the game were easily defeated by Warframe powers alone, for example, this game would turn into a Mesa-based idle game for iPhone and Android.

Holy crap this was a long time ago.

Anyway, simple typo on my part - I meant to switch the places of the 10x and 20x. The gist of my point is that it's really annoying to me that DE decides to fully shut-off portions of the player's arsenal rather than tone down the arsenal as a whole to let all the different tools at our disposal play nicely with one another. Enemies that are tougher to kill with powers than guns, or vice-versa? Fine. Enemies that favor melee over gunplay, or vice-versa? Fine.

But where I draw the line is when resistances turn into lazy immunities, and the mechanics consequently boil down into a simple color-by-numbers jump-through-the-flaming-hoop puzzles. I don't particularly enjoy having the game dictate when I can or cannot use specific tools to my advantage; it cheapens the power fantasy IMO. All that needs to happen is that particularly powerful tools (take your Peacemaker example) need to be suitably limited.

Nullifiers, etc. are one thing, but when you have major foes like the WOSS and Eidolons catering to a very specific subset of builds due to outright ignoring everything else the player can throw at them I find that decreases variety rather than sustains it.

[844448]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Holy crap this was a long time ago.

Anyway, simple typo on my part - I meant to switch the places of the 10x and 20x. The gist of my point is that it's really annoying to me that DE decides to fully shut-off portions of the player's arsenal rather than tone down the arsenal as a whole to let all the different tools at our disposal play nicely with one another. Enemies that are tougher to kill with powers than guns, or vice-versa? Fine. Enemies that favor melee over gunplay, or vice-versa? Fine.

But where I draw the line is when resistances turn into lazy immunities, and the mechanics consequently boil down into a simple color-by-numbers jump-through-the-flaming-hoop puzzles. I don't particularly enjoy having the game dictate when I can or cannot use specific tools to my advantage; it cheapens the power fantasy IMO. All that needs to happen is that particularly powerful tools (take your Peacemaker example) need to be suitably limited.

Nullifiers, etc. are one thing, but when you have major foes like the WOSS and Eidolons catering to a very specific subset of builds due to outright ignoring everything else the player can throw at them I find that decreases variety rather than sustains it.

We have this limitation on peacemaker, and this happens

 

[Kuestenjung]

DE shouldn´t follow anyones footsteps, but nevertheless they will in one way or another.

DE should balance the game, but again they won´t. They had the chance when they introduced Sorties, but they didn´t. Sure there will be balance passes every now and then but powercreep will allways play a role.

[SenorClipClop]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

it's really annoying to me that [1] DE decides to fully shut-off portions of the player's arsenal rather than [2] tone down the arsenal as a whole to let all the different tools at our disposal play nicely with one another

To me that sounds like [1] DE is removing the effectiveness of powerful stuff against a few specific objectives so they can't be cheesed the same way as everything else. And they are doing this instead of [2] flat-out nerfs to those weapons/powers etc. A lot of the community is pretty vocally against nerfs, and while a few need to happen sometimes, sweeping nerfs to the high-power-low-effort meta would piss off a lot of people. I think DE takes their players' interests much more to heart than Bungie (or at least the people at Bungie in charge of the nerfs mentioned in OP), seeing as how there are certain things in WF that could do well with a nerf but remain as strong as they are.

Anyway, the reason they do this is to make players change up how they solve in-game problems, and sometimes the devs need to draw firm lines like immunities to make that change-up a reality. For example, if a Nullifier reduced Warframe Ability damage by 90% instead of eliminating it entirely, the amount of ability damage we regularly inflict would make Nullies absolutely meaningless until at least Sortie 3 level, probably higher. Then instead of being a Tenno counter-measure unit, for the majority of play they're just another trash mob enemy that Saryn doesn't even see before she deletes them from the map.

Edited June 18, 2019 by SenorClipClop

[SenorClipClop]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

when you have major foes like the WOSS and Eidolons catering to a very specific subset of builds due to outright ignoring everything else the player can throw at them I find that decreases variety rather than sustains it.

I get behind this. I'm all for challenging a player's command of their arsenal by providing a somewhat narrow scope of effective solutions; however, when most of the newer bosses (Eidolons, WoSS, Demolysts) have only one solution, the same solution, which just amounts to "throw a LOT of damage at it", it starts to feel stale.

[Toran]

Am 18.5.2019 um 07:09 schrieb 844448:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

The day they do that is the day I stop playing Warframe.

Nerfing is no answer and usually futile in Warframe. Nerf one thing and we'll use something other, Warframe has tons of ways to get overpowered.

Warframe is not exactly a teamplay game. I don't know about you, but I hardly play two missions with the same guys. Hell, many players leave after every part of Sortie, even if things run smooth.

As for Destiny: scaling enemies suck. You don't get much sense of progress and the game feels very much alike through the levels.

About the lack of challenge: this could be taken care of very easily without touching the core game.

Solution 1: Left for Dead mission type: extreme hordes, mixed with deadly special enemies. You don't stick together? Prepare to die!

Solution 2: handcrafting challenge missions with predetermined loadout. This could be anything, from a noob setup versus star chart enemies to a demigod loadout (nice preview for newcomers) versus extreme level enemies.

Solution 2 requires more work and balancing but could bring back the excitement veterans miss. Shame, that there isn't a mission designer, we would see some awesome stuff!

[DrivaMain]

Destiny’s target audience are hardcore players while Warframe’s target audience are casuals (looking at current endgame content). DE can pull a huge nerf like bungie did, but I worried that DE will not survive the fallout. I would expect massive riots or boycotts in the community if this were to happen and would alienate the majority of warframe’s playerbase from endgame content.

Don’t believe me? According to steam achievements only 4.9% of players have defeated an eidolon terralyst. Now let’s say DE folllows bungie’s philosophy those 4.9% of steam warframe players can adapt to the change, but what about the 95.1% of steam warframe players ? Those players are already scared to try eidolons with the current setup and nerfing it even further would make those players aren’t gonna even bother to touch eidolons ever again.