Should DE follow bungie's footsteps on balancing for endgame?

[Vesiga]

No.. lol.. 
Warframe is not that kind of game. 

It's always been fast. 
It's always been a horde looter shooter.
Things are supposed to be this weak, and we're supposed to feel this powerful. 
On top of it all, RNG is so low that killing a few thousand things doesn't even get what you need. 
Even boss runs can enter 100+ for specific items.

and ESO is BUILT AROUND killing as fast as possible as much as possible.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Vesiga

[George_PPS]

15 minutes ago, lnfine said:

Because if you don't want optimal setups to be required, you want there to be no optimal setups. If there's a frame-specific damage multiplier, the frame with the best applicable multiplier will be required for the specific role like shooting eidolons. Effective DPS is a natural number. Set of natural numbers is ordered. Limited subset of natural numbers has a maximum element that is greater than all the other elements in that set. It is the "best effective DPS" element in this case. Which is meta. Meta is not a game design error or a free mason conspiracy. Meta is a natural property of objective reality.

If optimal setup/frames/weapons/load outs are required for missions, what is the purpose of having so many varieties in weapons/frames and abilities? It’s the modding/improving/optimizing builds that are fun and give players a sense of improvement and direction. 

Those asking for all quick/mediocre builds for all things are super casual players who may not even spend time to play or learn how to mod gears. I am sure you are not one of them. Warframe is a game of depth,  not a 10-hour game. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by George_PPS

[Cubewano]

20 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

For newer players, most “easy” high level contents we are doing with ease are not easy. We have ESO and Arbitration. We also have Eidolon hunting that require specific and specialized loadout to do efficiently. Newer and mid tier players don’t have that. 

As it should be, power progression is a thing, but the problem is that power progression begins to fall extremely flat once you leave the new player experience, once you're remotely familiarized with this game you can very quickly cheese essentially everything. Even eso, even arbis, the only mission you probably can't just broad leap past are eidolons because they are heavy mechanic locked so abilities only go so far on their own, but even that's mostly if you just want to maximize caps per night, so congrats on a single 3 series boss fight being the only potentially engaging content long term for players. But outside that? No, most of this stuff isn't difficult, which is wild since the list you offered in and of itself is pretty paltry, three missions for any remotely familiar player to get engagement from? Really? That players can out-scale most of the content in a game with infinite scaling capabilities is eerily sad.

[lnfine]

13 минут назад, George_PPS сказал:

If optimal setup/frames/weapons/load outs are required for missions, what is the purpose of having so many varieties in weapons/frames and abilities? It’s the modding/improving/optimizing builds that are fun and give players a sense of improvement and direction.

They aren't required. You are still capable of playing non-optimally. You don't need a full 4-man squad to do a tricap. You can do it solo. It will be slower and more annoying, but it's still possible.

Optimal setups are required to run missions optimally. If a mission can be run optimally, it means there is an objective metric that can be used to compare different runs. Which gets us back to the good old ordered set with a maximum element. For tridolons it's the tricap time (actually it's tricaps per night, but for simplicity we'll just consider tricap time). If different setups result in different tricap times, there's objectively a best setup that results in the smallest tricap time. If you want to run optimally you are required to use this setup. Because any other setup will be slower. Objectively. If you don't want to run optimally, you can use whatever floats your boat. Honestly, you could solo tricap with Ember and Zenurik, but then you would want to siucide.

If a mission can not be run optimally it either means that there's no objective metric to compare the results (how? why?), or that variation in results does not depend on your actions. At which point modding/improving/progression does not exist, only fashionframe.

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, Drivrius said:

You don't remove the tires on a car because it crosses the finish line too fast or with too little effort on the part of the driver, you make a longer race track or add more turns and elevations.

But DE did that and everyone pitched a fit, nullifiers were the most hated enemy unit addition in the game, people just about ruptured their spleens over the cc for profit taker, people complained left and right about how abilities didn't matter with exploiter, and do I even have to bring up the wolf? 

So what do they do now? Making the track more difficult didn't work and just gave them riots and a still unsatisfying race. 

[George_PPS]

3 minutes ago, lnfine said:

They aren't required. You are still capable of playing non-optimally. You don't need a full 4-man squad to do a tricap. You can do it solo. It will be slower and more annoying, but it's still possible.

Optimal setups are required to run missions optimally. If a mission can be run optimally, it means there is an objective metric that can be used to compare different runs. Which gets us back to the good old ordered set with a maximum element. For tridolons it's the tricap time (actually it's tricaps per night, but for simplicity we'll just consider tricap time). If different setups result in different tricap times, there's objectively a best setup that results in the smallest tricap time. If you want to run optimally you are required to use this setup. Because any other setup will be slower. Objectively. If you don't want to run optimally, you can use whatever floats your boat. Honestly, you could solo tricap with Ember and Zenurik, but then you would want to siucide.

If a mission can not be run optimally it either means that there's no objective metric to compare the results (how? why?), or that variation in results does not depend on your actions. At which point modding/improving/progression does not exist, only fashionframe.

That’s right. 

“Optimal setups are required to run missions optimally.“

And optimizing loadouts and gears to do missions optimally is a big part of the game. Players are always optimizing their builds. You are optimizing your builds. Would you bring a sloppy loadout for a wrong mission? You wouldn’t. 

[Drivrius]

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

But DE did that and everyone pitched a fit, nullifiers were the most hated enemy unit addition in the game, people just about ruptured their spleens over the cc for profit taker, people complained left and right about how abilities didn't matter with exploiter, and do I even have to bring up the wolf? 

So what do they do now? Making the track more difficult didn't work and just gave them riots and a still unsatisfying race. 

Exploiter having long invulnerable phases, Profit Takers constant knock backs/knock downs, Wolf bullet sponge damage reductions do not make them more challenging bosses, just more annoying.

If a mechanic does not increase the likely-hood of failure then it's doesn't make something more difficult.

 

DE didn't make the track more difficult, they added a mandatory pit stop and called it good.

 

Other then Nullifiers none of the things you mentioned made things tougher and sadly the other things are considered "endgame"

 

[Cubewano]

Just now, Drivrius said:

Exploiter having long invulnerable phases, Profit Takers constant knock backs/knock downs, Wolf bullet sponge damage reductions do not make them more challenging bosses, just more annoying.

If a mechanic does not increase the likely-hood of failure then it's doesn't make something more difficult.

 

DE didn't make the track more difficult, they added a mandatory pit stop and called it good.

 

Other then Nullifiers none of the things you mentioned made things tougher and sadly the other things are considered "endgame"

 

It does when the other option is instant deletion, even if just to the extent of it allowing for more potential screw ups and resource depletion. It's also really the only tools they have left if nerfing is off the table. 

Or how else do they make the tracks more difficult if adding new jumps, longer routes, and more obstacles aren't an option either? 

 

[dEjAvU5566]

Endgame? what endgame? There is no endgame in warframe.

Everything is easy once u have the setup, the rest is up to how long can you keep awake and not falling asleep.

Warframe is never a game to challenge players, it is here to make players feel good about themselves, and willing to spend some money or time into it to feel even more OP.

[rand0mname]

*hisses

I suggest you leave Chroma alone, Tenno.

*waves Rubico in absolutely non-threatening way

What’s next? “Jumping in WF is too easy and do not reward skill, so let’s turn our frames into Guardians and make falls fatal. And while we are at it, Catalysts seem neat!”

Also. Hands. Off. Chroma.

😉

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 hours ago, Drivrius said:

A blanket Nerf to make existing content "challenging" is easily the best way to alienate a player base, new harder content is a better choice IMO.

 

You don't remove the tires on a car because it crosses the finish line too fast or with too little effort on the part of the driver, you make a longer race track or add more turns and elevations.

So what do you do for a race car that can fly and moves at light speed?

[rand0mname]

Только что, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu сказал:

So what do you do for a race car that can fly and moves at light speed?

Let the driver enjoy the ride?

[Legion-Shields]

2 hours ago, Drivrius said:

A blanket Nerf to make existing content "challenging" is easily the best way to alienate a player base, new harder content is a better choice IMO.

 

You don't remove the tires on a car because it crosses the finish line too fast or with too little effort on the part of the driver, you make a longer race track or add more turns and elevations.

Yeah man Group B rally 2019 is gonna be so dope

[0_The_F00l]

Is it a nerf if even the enemies are weakened?

is it a buff if enemies are even stronger than the strongest weapon?

Will it be noticeable in actual game play or will it just be numbers on paper but inconsequential while playing?

 

DE has dug itself into a ditch with powerful weapons and then drawn itself into a corner with equally powerful enemies to compensate.

Both these aspects need to addressed for balancing prupose

 

 

[(PSN)KingGuy420]

Bungie also does a stupid thing where "oh you're level 650? Well this content is meant for lower than that so we're gonna throttle your stats down to that level. Congrats on wasting your time getting that number up for no reason though!!!!"

Should DE add that too? Like "oh you have 260% power strength? Well we don't think you should be over 115% so we're going to throttle you down to that. Congrats on wasting all that Endo!!!!"

Personally, I play Warframe cause I think balance is over rated and I respect the crap out of DE for not caving. So many games have been ruined by over balancing that it's not even funny. I'd much rather a few things be over powered as opposed to having everything feel the same, it's not even a debate which situation is better in my mind.

People only think they want balance until they actually see what that amounts too. Borderlands is a great example of this. Borderlands 2 was unbalanced as hell and it's still massively popular and active. Borderlands Pre Sequel comes out and people cry "pweeease balance this one, don't let it be unbalanced like 2". Less than 6 months in the game was dead with a ton of hardcore players saying over balancing was the reason they left. I'd bet big money Gearbox won't make the same mistake with 3 lol.

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

They are more in meltdown because the meta weapons got nerfed.
Many of those weapons were earned through legitimately hard as all hell quests, time-gated questes, and time gated activites.

So the nerf stings heavily.

Whisper quest was hard for a bit.. then it became easily done. Sleeper was easy to get period. Lord of Wolves was pretty easy to get from bounties. Exotic armors is RNG, so some may have taken awhile.

Ppl are seriously blowing it out proportion.

Whisper with raid flags, and 14 mag size is still a top weapon. Sleeper will still be good, even if its not meta, it was meta for a year, metas need to cycle. A lot of class stuff was buffed so not having constant supers isn't a big deal imo if they're more deadly.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, rand0mname said:

Let the driver enjoy the ride?

Welp, that's how I feel.  I enjoy just being an OP ninja/samurai/warrior with crazy powers and cool weapons fighting hordes of enemies and giant beasts.

I don't see why people need to overcomplicate it.  Sure, they may seek more "challenge" or whatever, but I might seek more pizza at a dessert bar.  Just because I want it doesn't mean I'm gonna get it -there-. 

And again, people assume that there never was any challenge anywhere in Warframe, and that's just not true.  I constantly mentor new players, and my gf plays as well...she's a total novice in the game.  I see her and others struggle early on until they have better gear (common in MANY rpgs and mmos) and develop their skills. 

When you get to the point that you've got top tier gear AND top tier skills... why WOULD it feel challenging?  Doesn't mean the challenge isn't present, just means you've already beaten it.  So, uh... ggwp.  Move on.

In the case of the race car driver, it's like they've mastered the course and have the best vehicle, as well.  At this point, the only reason they WOULD drive is "for the thrill of driving".   If they don't enjoy it, they simply wouldn't continue doing so.

But they shouldn't accuse the track's construction team of making the track "too easy".  or providing "no challenge".  That's just...ugh.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

37 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Is it a nerf if even the enemies are weakened?

is it a buff if enemies are even stronger than the strongest weapon?

Will it be noticeable in actual game play or will it just be numbers on paper but inconsequential while playing?

 

DE has dug itself into a ditch with powerful weapons and then drawn itself into a corner with equally powerful enemies to compensate.

Both these aspects need to addressed for balancing prupose

 

 

Well, tbh, halving our power or doubling the enemies' power...mathematically has basically the same outcome.

Whether I double your wages or halve the price of the product you want, you're going to be paying the same amount, RELATIVELY speaking.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)KingGuy420 said:

People only think they want balance until they actually see what that amounts too.

Basically this.  Every time DE "balances" something, people cry about it.  When things are "imbalanced"..people cry about it.

Honestly, this game isn't about balance.  It's about us being super strong bada$$es and being one-Tenno armies, taking on the entire solar system.

Why does that need toning down?  Because it's "too easy"?  Meh..it kept most people engaged for 1000's of hours, so it's clearly fine.  If it doesn't keep players retained -forever- that's not a poor design, that's just inevitable.  That's just people.  

But I don't want this to become a superman game where I can supposedly lift the EARTH, but I struggle with street thugs.  All in the name of "balance".  We don't have that, and we don't need it. 

[Test-995]

They could add no-mods mode for balanced challenging mission.

[EdinburghKev]

No, DE should not do this.  I stopped playing Destiny for this very reason, nerf's of exotics and weapons ruined the experience and investment in the game for me.  

[-Temp0-]

Stop bringing other games, fps especially in comparison to warframe.

Games like Destiny are (more) balanced already from day 1 because they only have 1 - 3 classes to 'balance' 2 none of the classes have insane healing or invincibility. Theres warlock healing that is just super slow and some supers but supers are also for MOST players a thing that occur once in several minutes 3 your damage is severely limited by your weapons since you have no mods and overall damage output level based progression is absolutely different 4 game is cooldown based - again, exotics to bypass that take months to get and dlcs to get and unobtainable for many so I dont count that

In short other games are way more grounded than warframe. Warframe has WAY too many ways, mechanics, mods and warframes to deal insane damage or become invincible to any kind of "end game balance" to have place. But still the biggetst thing is healing and invincibility

[FlusteredFerret]

4 hours ago, Drivrius said:

A blanket Nerf to make existing content "challenging" is easily the best way to alienate a player base, new harder content is a better choice IMO.

 

You don't remove the tires on a car because it crosses the finish line too fast or with too little effort on the part of the driver, you make a longer race track or add more turns and elevations.

Kind of a silly comparison. What you actually do is change the engine formula to a smaller size, remove turbos etc. to reduce power and you can limit aerodynamics. You can even change the wheel size & tyre design to reduce grip. These are things that have actually been done.

What if there is no room to extend the circuit, or it costs too much money to redesign? Actually easier just to change the car design regs in some cases.

 

A blanket nerf is also the quickest, easiest and most logical way to create balance. But because DE recognise a large part of the player base would spit their dummies out, they are looking at ways to increase difficulty instead. Could be a long time coming though, so don't hold your breath...

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, NaoEthelia said:

Have you seen how poorly the balance changes were received? The entire reddit is in massive meltdown: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame

heh, kind of glad I got away from that game when I did.

I don't think DE should follow Bungie on this at all, and I think that the lack of balance in Warframe is a much deeper issue. I think a system where ability spam can be done, but gives diminishing returns would work best: if you want to spam CC, you can, but after a few casts, enemies are only affected for a couple of seconds, discouraging it from being used too heavily, but without actually denying the player the chance to use it. I think in modes like ESO and Arbitration, which DE want to categorize as "endgame", a modifier like this could apply to nuke abilities: players can keep using them, but with diminishing returns.

that said, there would still be a lot of pushback: most people like, or at least tolerate, nuke spam because it makes farming for that item with the ludicrously low drop chance a lot faster and easier. take that away abnd you'll usher in a chorus of "the farm takes too long" threads.

[Gabbynaru]

I thought Bungie's decision to nerf those guns was highly unpopular, so why would DE try and follow that? It's not like the result will change, if anything the backlash could possibly be even worse.