Wukong rework first impressions

[(PSN)chibitonka]

Also... if i may since my main bud is topic atm.

Huh it doesn't show the same spacing in the embed link. X: Regardless a few of the problems that his cert rework are bringing up were already addressed in the one posted.

I do apologize for the length but gotta make sure details ain't left out lol. Color coding helped make it easier to read though xD.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

Just a monkey main don't mind me. Clones as resources woot woot.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

Monkey smelled bad happenings to his honor x: Clones for resources to feed powers gib xD

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I don't really play Wukong. For obvious reasons(to many). These proposed changes do seem like a bit of a drastic change-up. Speaking personally, I like these ideas as a starting point. I wouldn't mind seeing them more developed, though. If it can get me to try Wukong again, how bad could it really be?

That said, I understand how people feel when a frame can be changed into something that might be drastically different. It's hard for me to say "try it out before you complain" when my favorite frame, Nyx, was butchered in a recent "rework".

If I were a cynical man, I would say DE makes changes for the people that don't play these frames, not for the people that do. They want more people playing it even at the expense of the old players. I would be really afraid. If they can mess up Wukong, surely they can do anything.

Ironically in this regard they've listened to us. Those of us that play Wukong, and I mean actually play Wukong and not just immortal frame, have been asking for awhile for Defy to be changed. A taunt function on it has been heavily requested.

[(PSN)PRINCE_ALI_1985]

I feel ya but it's somethings I predicted a long time ago. I simply adapt and survive.

currently you have two choices as an endurance tank Revenant and Nidus a (Chroma, Inarous ect... will reach 1 hit phase once the scale break)

Syrin,Gara is next on the chopping block among and once scaling rewards is a thing expect other to be nerfed e.g Revenant, Nidus.

[Stalk-prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

No. I understand it's that they aren't doing him justice and just slapping things together hoping it works instead of actually proposing a coherent and cohesive kit

I think DE's definition of Wukong is a little off.
We want the Monkey King, not a naughty soldier.

 

[ZPERO]

I think being able to cycle "stances" on your clones with light taps of the ability is useful because it allows you to gain some control over them instead of relying on their awful AI.
So that's a good thing to try and fit in the build. Specially considering how common clone abilities are when Wukong appears in other games.
The iron staff also should be there in one way on another, but preferably with good stats (specially more range and status chance) after all, the iron jab is also really important to Wukong in lore.
Another important aspect of Wukong is invincibility. To quote the wiki on Sun Wukong "Sun Wukong was able to gain immortality through 5 different means. All of which stacks up to make him one of the most immortal and invincible beings."
So not dying is kind of a big deal. Now that I've had more time to think about it, I think it could be a good idea to make his immortality rely on some sort of meter that fills up when you deal enough damage or something like that. Or perhaps only while your clone is out, or some other mechanic. Basically to give it some sort of active requirement that must be met that makes the ability more that a simple toggle. 

Finally there's cloud walker. This is also kind of a staple in lore, but in warframe it's kind of the most boring and less useful ability. The main issue is that you can't actually do anything when you're a cloud. In my suggested build I tried to give Wukong another layer of complexity and synergy with his other abilities so his cloud walker isn't quite so boring.

[Moroi-Incoming]

I know the rework is still work in progress but the concept shown in the last devstream really left me with a sour taste in my mouth.

First of all,cloud walker survived...How in the name of all that's good in this world does this ability remain?Nobody likes it,nobody needs it.Can anyone tell me why would anyone want to stop their movement and smashing enemies to...turn into a fart cloud and fly around to get some probably insignificant crit?It basicly pulls you out of your gameplay to just stay in that blinding fog(because it sure as hell blinds me with all that foggy S#&$ in my screen,can't see anything 2m ahead of me),eventually coming out of it to maybe find out that everyone was already killed by your superior damage allies/nukers/whatever.No amounts of speed and buffs will make this sad excuse of an ability work.Trying to make us use it in combat is a funny joke.

Defy on the other hand,I can trade the permanent invulnerability for some active gameplay.But as I've seen above,suggested by others,the whole retaliate thing won't do.It's basicly a Nyx 4th ability with a taunt and tbh if I wanted to have it,I would have played Nyx instead.He needs either better stats to help his loss of permanent "tankiness",some stacking % Damage Reduction depending on damage taken during defy's invulnerability phase or some heal over time during and/or after defy to keep him going cuz rn,he lacks some in-built way to keep him in the fight.I don't really know,anything but the whole damage return bullcrap,its already used,not interesting at all and doesn't really work either.

[AntiMomentum]

Yes, I have no idea what is going on with their thinking but hairs on his back isn't even nearly as important as him being  IMMORTAL like 5 different ways in traditional lore.

Granted, simply keeping Defy just as it is now would eliminate the need for Cloud Walker in this game, even the new proposed Cloud Walker. And open that ability up to something completely new for this frame
In fact, reworked Cloud walker just seems like a self-buff version of what Harrow can do FOR THE ENTIRE SQUAD. Maybe it will buff the squad too? If not then RIP cloud walker. Even then, it better give them iframes like Harrow or something else too or pff that change. Increased mobility isn't really a big factor for Wukong players to begin with (reworked Cloud Walker). Not seeing the helpful Wukong in a squad style people have been looking for there.

On top of that, current Defy can at least help fuel his other abilities, provided he takes enough damage. Meaning if the mission isn't going fast enough, he can take a bunch of damage, gain the energy from rage/hunter adrenaline, and use other abilities more often!

You can't do that with new Defy, or even be truly immortal in long endurance runs, as you must gather damage to release it which pretty much means rage will no longer apply! Yikes! Energy cost without gain from damage. No more Chinese finger trap embrace all damage Wukong. Sort of like Rhino/Nezha already do but obviously differently, and they do it with squad damage buffs too unlike current or rework wukong. LOL!

Please DE, just keep classic Defy. Anyone who's bothered to mod for the immortality loop knows better. You already said you would keep Defy in the devstream second to last of last year! I'll be glad to pull clip if you want. Which leads me to my next point...

Seeing as about the only thing significantly improved is his 4th (with a passive meter similar to Baruuk), I'd honestly rather just have Wukong as he is now. His current tanking is enough to contend with other top tier tanks. Rework Defy seems more like a test run to rework Nyx's 4th tbh. 😞 Which is oddly enough the same Devstream you announced Nyx revisit/rework???

I've been in debates right here on the forums with people, whom I've disagreed with (like DE_Monkey), who still have proposed reworks that seem better on paper than what we saw on Devstream and that's assuming what we saw on Devstream is significantly improved. DE, if you're hiding something big with this rework now's the time to tell us.

Even yesterday's devstream chat was full of "RIP Wukong" I had no idea so many people agreed with it. Imagine thinking "RIP Wukong" of all frames first of all. Who deserves better by now. Second, in traditional lore Wukong can beat up Nezha and even tank more powerful gods' attacks. He took on Heaven without getting killed. o.O He tanked Budhha's palms, the size of mountains and survived that too. 😕

Less importantly, his 1st should spawn a second or even third clone at least. Or just something else because it's meh. Wukong has a lot of powers to choose from, but if nothing else he is supposed to be immortal like he already is in game right now.

Edited May 25, 2019 by AntiMomentum

[AntiMomentum]

This reply was meant for a different post

Edited May 25, 2019 by AntiMomentum

[DeMonkey]

55 minutes ago, AntiMomentum said:

I've been in debates right here on the forums with people, whom I've disagreed with (like DE_Monkey), who still have proposed reworks that seem better on paper than what we saw on Devstream and that's assuming what we saw on Devstream is significantly improved. DE, if you're hiding something big with this rework now's the time to tell us

Taking that as a compliment. 

[AntiMomentum]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Taking that as a compliment. 

I'd totally take your rework over the one on Devstream, despite our disagreements on Defy.

[toyetic]

After thinking about the reworks they showed on the devstream I realized 2 things 

A. they didn't show us very much at all and 
B. It could still end up fairly good

lemme explain

1. For the clone ability all they showed us was that we have a clone who switches between gun and melee. They didn't say how much strength it has, its duration, how far it can go out from you, whether it has laser sharp accuracy or not etc. This is to be expected from a WiP showing although I wish we got more details. 

This ability is more subject to DE's capability than anything else. Everyone I know who is against the idea of clones wasn't against it because it they thought it wasn't cool or didn't have potential. They ( and I ) didn't want it because DE's minions and clones have terrible AI. However they can obviously make the AI good and then most would have no problem with the ability. On top of that if they gave some buffs while you have his 1 active like speed it'd be a pretty good ability in general. If a warframes kit isnt build around it's 1 the first ability doesn't have to be octavia or inaros or nidus level just serviceable. The clones could definitely fit that description if executed correctly.

2. They showed us nothing about his 2 and the explanation didn't tell us much either. The "taunt then retaliate function" could be implemented tones of ways and we'll just need more information. however- 

If it's executed right it will be a positive even if it is a nerf on his current defy. I was someone who didn't want defy changed because I didn't trust DE to not mess it up. However giving us a taunt function is something that I and many others have wanted especially on wukong. This ability can be VERY good if they implement it correctly. IMO the best way would be to have a duration of invulnerability/ damage reduction in which all the damage you soak is converted into a damage buff. At the end of this timer you then get that damage buff for another period of time along with smaller amount of damage reduction. This way you're much more active and once your immortal state is over rather than reflection damage onto enemies which ,aside from octavia's 1 that has an 8x multiplier, has always been trash we get a good buff.

3. All they showed us was the speed and told us we'd get crit chance. As to be expected from a WiP showing they didn't tell us the duration, speed, or crit chance bonus of the cloud.

This ability is one everyone agreed should have been replaces but they kept it in so lets go with that. Currently there's no reason to ever go into cloud walker as it's made redundant by defy. This will likely change once the defy changes happen but there are ways to make it worth while to go into the cloud. Upping it's speed is a good start. The main thing I think it needs to do is heal. With all 3 umbrals wukong has around 3k ehp which isnt bad but not enough to have great sustain at high levels. If you change defy to be more active reason would dictate we would take more damage that could kill us. Giving cloud walker a function that heals us back ( while also giving us other buffs such as crit chance on exit) and still allowing us to move at a good pace to the next objective would be great. It would give cloud walker an actual use and make it something that people care about.

4. There wasn't much to show except for the new "baruuk styled meter" they're giving it which they didn't show but more importantly didn't tell us what it did....

Everyone heard baruuk meter and everyone (including myself) assumed that they were going to lock his 4 behind a meter which is not only thematically stupid and boring but also terrible in practice. HOWEVER this may not be the case . Right now wukong's staff's range is tied to the melee combo counter capping out at around 5 meters and dropping back down to around 1.5-2 when the combo counter decays. Switching that to a meter that rises faster and falls slower would be great and make it so there doesn't always have to be an influx of enemies to keep his range up. This could be a very welcome change or a completely unnecessary nerf we just have to wait and see.

But the main gripe I have is that they are buffing the wrong stats. Anyone who built wukong staff well knows that his raw damage is fine. Infact it has more raw damage than any other hammer, greatsword, or polearm in the game. The problem is on paper damage is worse than high range and worse than high status. It's never worth using wukongs 4 (aside from fun 😃 ) if any polearm will kill just as fast but in a 12m radius. Or any other good melee will kill that level 100 bombard 8x faster because it will strip armor. Damage on wukongs 4 isn't the problem. What needs to be buffed is the status chance and the range. Buff the range to 8-10m with the lowest it can decay to being 5. and buff the status to 40% and we have a true exalted weapon worth using.

These are my thoughts after thinking about what was shown on the devstream. They didn't show us much and some looked underwhelming. But I definitely think the foundation is there for this rework to make my main a much more solid frame

 

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

Deleted... reworked comment.

Edited May 29, 2019 by (XB1)Nightseid

[Xepthrichros]

10 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

This Is cutting his survivability easily and with the notion that this is to counter the "lazy gameplay" while having Mesa's and others 4 act the way it does is very hypocritical also with this new w.i.p kit it makes it look like your trying to keep to his lore but as I stated it's bland and uninspired. It's a core of his kit yet you destroy it effectively making him very unappealing to people new to him and also taking away a frame that people are attached to as well

 

I think DE won't mind going crazier with Wukong buffs, but their "hypocrisy" is mainly the result of people on the forums whining and calling on nerfs for all things.

If they nerf what is currently so-called OP (which are also the meta equipment), they risk many who enjoy the meta rage quitting, or these meta users come on to the forums or DE's twitter to make known their displeasure and call for reverts of the nerfs. (though it would be a good reality check to nerf callers so they know just how much of a minority they actually are. they are getting inflated egos with their several years of accumulated forum points from continued whining and an upvotes-only system)

But since DE would rather avoid a revolt by nerfing the meta, but still want to make the nerf-callers happy to some extent, they instead work their nerfs into new frames these days, and when designing reworks. Recent examples include no blender for Garuda. taking away Wisp's reservoirs being able to deploy their own AOE kill zones, Baruuk's restraint mechanic and line of sight for sleep, and line of sight requirement for Hildryn's 3, Vauban's buff and Nyx's changes barely doing anything. and now, most recently their rework for Wukong.

Though I am personally waiting to see what extent they buff Wukong's other skills to make up for the changes to Defy. Especially his exalted weapon. But I can say that they should remove their proposed baruuk-style limiter for starters. Why on earth would Wukong be restraining himself from unleashing his staff? He's not a pacifist. If it is a meter that gives a buff instead and makes his 4th stronger over time, then ok, like a superior combo meter? Yes. But if it is something that limits it, in the sense of limiting the duration of how much we can use the exalted weapon like Baruuk's - no. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[toyetic]

11 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Though I am personally waiting to see what extent they buff Wukong's other skills to make up for the changes to Defy. Especially his exalted weapon. But I can say that they should remove their proposed baruuk-style limiter for starters. Why on earth would Wukong be restraining himself from unleashing his staff? He's not a pacifist. If it is a meter that gives a buff instead and makes his 4th stronger over time, then ok, like a superior combo meter? Yes. But something that limits it, in the sense of limiting the duration of how much we can use the exalted weapon like Baruuk's - no. 

IK it sounds like they're locking his 4 behind a meter but all they said was that the meter was going to be used. They could tie the meter to his range or another function and if thats the case it could be a buff rather than a nerf, we just have to wait and see

 

[AntiMomentum]

42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Baruuk's restraint mechanic and line of sight for sleep, and line of sight requirement for Hildryn's 3, Vauban's buff and Nyx's changes barely doing anything. and now, most recently their rework for Wukong.

Though I am personally waiting to see what extent they buff Wukong's other skills to make up for the changes to Defy. Especially his exalted weapon. But I can say that they should remove their proposed baruuk-style limiter for starters. Why on earth would Wukong be restraining himself from unleashing his staff? He's not a pacifist. If it is a meter that gives a buff instead and makes his 4th stronger over time, then ok, like a superior combo meter? Yes. But if it is something that limits it, in the sense of limiting the duration of how much we can use the exalted weapon like Baruuk's - no. 

Nyx is in such a weird spot. But yeah it doesn't make sense to have a limiter on Wukong's 4th like Baruuk does. Not that's it needed, but I wouldn't mind if Baruuks ablities erode his passive a little faster.

As for Wukong yeah it would make no sense to have a limiter. I also don't see much of a point in Cloud Walker if it's just faster with a self-crit buff. If I want that I'd just use Harrow and buff the whole squad if not soloing.

I do like how the 4th itself is looking though. Certainly compared to what is in-game that's no doubt. I think DE did the 4th ability right it seems anyways. Unless it's full Baruuk style erosion and not actually buffing somehow like you mentioned. Pretty much agreeing with most of what you said in this reply as well

Edited May 25, 2019 by AntiMomentum

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, AntiMomentum said:

I'd totally take your rework over the one on Devstream, despite our disagreements on Defy.

Cheers. Despite my agreement with DE on removing the easy immortality, as per my own thread, I'm disappointed with the #1 and #3 changes, and to some extent the #2 as well. I was hoping for a little more than just a taunt, some DR and health regen would be nice.

Clones have always been a no for me. Perhaps as aesthetic fluff as part of a larger ability, but definitely not the sole focus of an ability.

Cloudwalker just needs to go.

The #4 I'm most interested in seeing as it's my favourite ability, but I'll reserve judgement until I actually see some footage.

Edited May 25, 2019 by DeMonkey

[toyetic]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Clones have always been a no for me. Perhaps as aesthetic fluff as part of a larger ability, but definitely not the sole focus of an ability.

I was also against clones mainly b/c DE fails to have good AI on them but if it stays near you and has the 100% accuracy that rescue targets have it could be solid.

 

8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Cloudwalker just needs to go.

I agree but i think theres potential if they implement it right. Making it faster means you'll be able to move from objective to objective while in it which means if you're using it you won't be completely useless. The main thing it needs to do is have a reason to use it in the first place. With the defy changes it's likely you'll be taking more damage and even though wukong has decent stats with umbrals we'll be more susceptible to dying. Giving the cloud some utility such as healing and better enemy blind/ disarm would give you somewhat of a panic button should you need it that would be worth going into

[AntiMomentum]

32 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Cheers. Despite my agreement with DE on removing the easy immortality, as per my own thread, I'm disappointed with the #1 and #3 changes.

Clones have always been a no for me. Perhaps as aesthetic fluff as part of a larger ability, but definitely not the sole focus of an ability.

Cloudwalker just needs to go.

The #4 I'm most interested in seeing as it's my favourite ability, but I'll reserve judgement until I actually see some footage.

Yep, other than Defy: Same. I was really hoping Cloud Walker would just get changed enitrely. 1 isn't impressive in any way. I pretty much never use Spectre AI as is or Umbra Excal passive for that matter. 4 seems like it should be good depending on how the meter works, the stats on his wepaon, and the AoE range. 

It would be akward trying to make his 1 like his own personal Nyx 1 (without actually requiring an enemy of course) or even Mirage's whatever (its been 2 years since I've used her forgot the names of her abilities)

One of the major complaints is how useful he is not in a squad. I'm just not seeing that being addressed in the rework, at least not so far from what little we've seen.

 

18 minutes ago, toyetic said:

I was also against clones mainly b/c DE fails to have good AI on them but if it stays near you and has the 100% accuracy that rescue targets have it could be solid.

 

I agree but i think theres potential if they implement it right. Making it faster means you'll be able to move from objective to objective while in it which means if you're using it you won't be completely useless. The main thing it needs to do is have a reason to use it in the first place. With the defy changes it's likely you'll be taking more damage and even though wukong has decent stats with umbrals we'll be more susceptible to dying. Giving the cloud some utility such as healing and better enemy blind/ disarm would give you somewhat of a panic button should you need it that would be worth going into

If they are going to keep Cloud Walker I'd rather it just be something like a decent blind duration ability with at least some kind of range that does NOT require line of sight. That could be a decent cc to benefit the squad or hold an interception point, ect.

Maybe if his 4th gets in range of an enemy opened to finishers by his Cloud Walker it does something extra. No idea what tho

Edited May 25, 2019 by AntiMomentum

[toyetic]

1 minute ago, AntiMomentum said:

If they are going to keep Cloud Walker I'd rather it be a decent blind duration ability with at least some kind of range that does NOT require line of sight. That could be a decent cc to benefit the squad or hold an interception point, ect.

That's also a good option, the main thing is that even though cloud walker is lackluster and won't ever be as good as some of the better abilities in the game, DE can make it useful, good and synergistic within wukongs own kit which is what most of us are asking for

[AntiMomentum]

25 minutes ago, toyetic said:

That's also a good option, the main thing is that even though cloud walker is lackluster and won't ever be as good as some of the better abilities in the game, DE can make it useful, good and synergistic within wukongs own kit which is what most of us are asking for

Yeah even Baruuk's sleep, Excal's Blind, ect require LoS so it'd be nice for Wukong to have some kind of edge over that even if he can't have as much range for balance. Especially to have cc without current Defy. I'd be ok with replacing Defy with some strong range-based cc (certainly beyond just knockdowns), even if somewhat limited range. Maybe the new Defy or Cloud Walker will do something like that besides just sending damage back like in the devstream

Or maybe rather than opening enemies to finishers he does some percentage of scaling damage using another ability with his 4th. Like 15 or 20% scaling damage. That'd be interesting. Certainly still slower than Mesa or Saryn in damage but if you hit the enemies enough times they are garunteed to die as long as it's not a boss or something. 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by AntiMomentum

[SerjRozov]

Hey everyone! Glad to see so many people complain about Wu rework.

As for the 1st ability yep maybe a clon would be more interesting especially in tandem with the equipment clon, though the fact that it will use melee when I use range is kinda meeh, bet it won't give any help in a hot fight since it's an ai. Have to say that Poke sometimes can be very useful, it can knock off big guys such as Knox, when you're on reload or something.

Defy.. Well I really, really don't like the idea of changing it. It's pretty balanced as it is in a curent state, here's why: Wukong not a damage dealer, since his stick is pretty much useless on regular kind of missions, people only use it when upping weapons in rank; Wukong can only do damage with range or melee (not stick, since it's draw energy and there're better alternatives anyway) but you won't ever see Wu done most of the damage in a team or killed more mobs, so if there're Mesa or Saryn or any other range damage ability frame in a team Wukong stands aside paying attention to Zeroes, tanking bosses as Wolf and reviving team mates. And even Wolf's attack damage (when you're using damage=energy mod) don't give you energy so you end up empty and die. Teralists same story. You have to measure all the time the amount of damage that you've taken for not to die. You're saying Defy is a permanent invulnerability but it's not, it's pretty tricky ability and without it or changing it you guys gonna just rip Wukong's balls off. Please don't ruin thing if it's not broken!

Cloud walker: well it's useless in a curent state, first of all you can't see s in a fog to run away to hide\to use a tablet\ revive and you even can't use it! only with an operator. Changing speed of the ability won't change the fact that it's just a dusty parachute that you'll might use when you're low on energy+turning off defy\stick, but more likely you'll kill some mobs\take damage\use tablet.

Stick of truth: even with a good build on it, it's a close range weapon, on a high lvl you ain't able to use it without defy, it's a double energy drain + how does it help when all your team mates already killed everything that moves and even that target that you're kicking with that stick? 

Deluxe skin: well I'm glad that you guys finally threw the skirt off, hope that shining anus joke is also in the past. The helmet.. well it looks like Amber's, I will still use steam tennogen one. If you won't kill Wukong! I also hope that those spiky shoulders are removable parts. 

This is it, I really hope You guys reading forums, and will listen to our prayers not to kill\cut off balls of our favourite WarFrame - Wukong!

Greetings from Russia! Thank You for the Great Game!

 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by SerjRozov

[ZoneDymo]

I so far like the changes coming: 

I like Wukong's current 1st ability but 'Hair of the King" I would like even more.
However, one tiny request for that ability specifically, pls make it a (rather cheap) channeling ability for once.

I say for once because Nyx her 1st buddy maker ability is duration based AND Equinox her Duality Augment is also duration based.

For some variation, can we make this one for Wukong either channeling based or based purely on health left (aka the specter would just go away when it dies)?

Also allow the specter to revive you and allies should anyone go down and the specter is summoned and close enough.


Also considering we currently have an augment for Wukong's 1st ability and that the new ability is completely different thus the augment needs to be changed, a suggestion for that as well.
When you die and have your specter out, the specter dies in your place and you gain a short time of invulnerability
 

[ZoneDymo]

seems to me you never tried the duality augment.

 

sidenote cannot believe or understand how casual the general playerbase of this game seems to be, the game is too easy to the point of boredom as is and you all fight to keep yet another immortality power in the game?

Go play Revenant, Rhino, Inaros, Hildryn, Oberon, Valkyr, Chroma, Nekros, Nezha and many others if you want that....

I mean far from me to tell you how to play but its beyond me why so many people seem to enjoy having no challenge at all, why do you even play games?

Edited May 25, 2019 by ZoneDymo