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(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Wukong rework first impressions

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Well, to be fair, Wukong doesn't need a whole lot of work, and the clone summon replacing his 1 is a much appreciated change.

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33 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Because Pablo reworks frames only if he has a good idea for it, not because people demand it.

That means de themselves need to step it up with frame reworks. One man shouldnt be the only compent developer to making good frame reworks.

 

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6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

One man army frame, not super specialised niche frame.

Trinity says hello.

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Couldn't have said it better myself, one thing I do wish they did was make his 4's range much larger than the current ~4.5m we have

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4 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

Trinity says hello.

Hello Trinity.

I see you're still totally capable of taking on an army, keep up the good work.

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Because Pablo "reworks" them into simple, brainless press 4 to win frames.

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Just now, DeMonkey said:

Hello Trinity.

I see you're still totally capable of taking on an army, keep up the good work.

Except she wasnt designed for that. She inherited it from the general warframe and weaponry design.

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25 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Edit: Just a reminder, %range increases are changing to flat +m increases, so his staff SHOULD become the highest reaching staff in the game. This nonsense range is going away most likely.

Was this in the initial melee 3.0 workshop and I missed it? Not trying to throw shade or anything just wondering where you got this from

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4 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

Except she wasnt designed for that. She inherited it from the general warframe and weaponry design.

She wasn't designed to take on lots of enemies at once? Lol.

Come on, your personal interpretation is just as irrelevant as my own. 

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2 minutes ago, toyetic said:

Was this in the initial melee 3.0 workshop and I missed it? Not trying to throw shade or anything just wondering where you got this from

Don't remeber exactly where i got it from, maybe heard it on a stream? %range will become +meters increase. Dont have the source sorry, take it at you will. I supposed it will make short weapons more worthwhile

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4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

She wasn't designed to take on lots of enemies at once? Lol.

Come on, your personal interpretation is just as irrelevant as my own. 

Quite right, your statements run hollow.

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Warframe mods, give me back my thread. It had nothing to do with wukong! 

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4 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

Quite right, your statements run hollow.

I'm not the one using my personal interpretation to make an argument. That's you.

By that logic, your argument runs hollow.

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Just now, DeMonkey said:

I'm not the one using my personal interpretation to make an argument. That's you.

By that logic, your argument runs hollow.

I put valid arguments, while you put invalid ones or try to hide behind words, who's argument runs hollow?

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2 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

I put valid arguments, while you put invalid ones or try to hide behind words, who's argument runs hollow?

"Valid arguments".

No, you said 'this is how I view Warframe, new Wukong doesn't meet this view therefore it is bad'.

I then showed you that this view of yours is as inconsequential as my own view, and therefore isn't the basis of an argument. It's an opinion, not a fact. You cannot prove that Warframe's are designed to have a niche, just as I cannot prove that they're designed to be one man armies.

Try and follow the argument please, it's not hard.

 

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I would love to throw an idea in that keeps the spirit of old wukong but works like the new one.

What if you do it like this - while the clone of hair of the king is alive - you cannot die - cause there is a fraction of you somewhere else 

So in that way you would keep the invincibility but it will still work with the new kit - also if the Taunt ability of the new Defy ability is only applied on you but not on your clone,

then you will protect it from harm longer (as the enemies do focus you) - thus having a longer frame of invincibility

In this way you would keep the spirit of the old wukong - as beeing hard to kill - but also involving the new ideas into his kit.

thanks for reading 🙂

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49 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

"Valid arguments".

No, you said 'this is how I view Warframe, new Wukong doesn't meet this view therefore it is bad'.

I then showed you that this view of yours is as inconsequential as my own view, and therefore isn't the basis of an argument. It's an opinion, not a fact. You cannot prove that Warframe's are designed to have a niche, just as I cannot prove that they're designed to be one man armies.

Try and follow the argument please, it's not hard.

 

First off i never said that, even with the new changes Wukong still meets "this view", he simply drops down in that view, hard. And without much reason, very similar to what happened to other warframes. I never said Warframe as only the warframes, but to Warframe, the whole game, weapons, arcanes, companions and everything the combination of it all.

Second. You're not correct. First my original argument is supported by warframes' history - that design never changed for the whole history of warframe. And not that it couldnt change. It is the current design and its a fact. Trying to put it that its simply my opinion is called state of denial. You avoided it by changing the subject to a specific design decision. But that assumption is invalid, because the one-man-army is in the base of all warframes. When they designed of trinity the initial 'base' design was done and all they had to do is design the new things, which they choose to be niche support - thats a fact, not an opinion, we can see the base so many years later still being in effect.

Be in denial all you want. I'm done with this useless argue.

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1 minute ago, scourge213 said:

First off i never said that,

"Warframe is all about being situationally best at something. Wukong's current defy made him situationally the thoughest frame around. I dont see how the new changes make him situationally best at anything.""

That's what you said.

This is you stating your personal interpretation, assuming that it is the correct one, and stating that the new changes to Wukong don't fit your personal interpretation and are therefore bad as evident by your amendment later on in which you include "I.e. don't change his defy!"

3 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

even with the new changes Wukong still meets "this view"

Quite the contradiction from your previous statement, isn't it? You just said he doesn't.

Make your mind up. :wink:

4 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

Second. You're not correct.

I'm afraid that's just your interpretation of this argument.

5 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

First my original argument is supported by warframes' history

So is my belief that Warframe's are designed to be one man armies regardless of the balance problems it causes. This is also backed up by Warframe's history, it is very much the current state of Warframe. This is also a fact.

And yet, it's still not relevant when talking about balance. If a frame is released and it isn't a one man army, it isn't inherently bad. Just because it doesn't fit how I personally believe the game is designed, doesn't make something bad.

7 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

I'm done with this useless argument.

Coward.

You still haven't commented on the fact that Defy doesn't actually make Wukong the toughest Warframe around. 9 times out of 10 Revenant gets that award. Wukong has bsaically no niche, nothing he is the best at rendering your entire "he needs to keep his niche" rather moot.

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So, Wukong is getting a rework! We should say "Hooray!"... right?
Well, not so quick. There is plenty of stuff that came to mind when seeing and hearing what the devstream showed.

1. Defy - His bread and butter ability, the only thing that has kept him going for all these years, Defy, is being flat-out REMOVED and replaced with something that is not even a vague remnant of its former self. Reworking a frame does not have to mean making a nearly new Warframe. Expanding on what made them good in the first place is what made other reworks so succesful, but this luxury is not bestowed onto the Monkey King. Instead, we get a "Timed invulnerability" which will deflect damage. Nothing was shown, of course, as DE knew this was the most controversial move of the entire rework.

2. And yet, his (arguably) most useless ability, Cloud Walker, is barely being touched upon. The main gripe was that it was quite useless in combat, but now it moves faster (How much faster? We don't exactly know.) and gives a Crit Buff (How much of a buff? We also don't know. For how long? Oh, we also don't know). No fundamental changes to how it synergizes with other abilities, just a tweak of numbers. Great.

3. His Iron Jab is being replaced, rightfully so, but the clone we're getting in its place is incredibly counter-intuitive. When I'm shooting at enemies that are 15-20m away, it won't help me shoot the enemies, no, on the contrary: It will wave its melee about! If thise clone does not have reviving us when we're down as his "mirroring" mindset, you've missed the goal. We also don't know how it's going to work. Does it have HP? Duration-based? (I heard "Duration", but nothing concrete afterwards.) Constant drain? No information. A clone that would "Watch your flank", as Rebecca put it, would not be locked to mirroring you. Please reconsider this.

4. His Iron Staff is being buffed (REJOICE), but is supposedly being gated by an arbitrary "Baruuk" meter that does not fit the character of Wukong whatsoever. Wukong is a mischievous and impulsive monkey, not someone to show restraint or a lot of tact. A "meter" à la Baruuk does not fit him character-wise nor playstyle-wise.

5. With the introduction of the new Melee System SoonTM, and the fact that his entire kit is being looked over, one could argue that it would be time for a new passive as well. Sadly, there was nothing mentioned about this, so all we can do is wait, and hope for the best.

 

6. This is not something new, we have seen this a couple of times before. A lack of acknowledgement as to WHY a Warframe was played in the first place, or an intense desire to change their playstyle altogether, has proven to be the wrong way to go about a rework.

Both times Ember was "reworked", they changed her more powerful and "core" abilities. Overheat (Damage Reduction) got removed and replaced with a stun, and a weak and situational buff. World on Fire just got absolutely demolished and turned into something that was counter-intuitive to what it was used for before: large AoE low-level grinding, or large AoE knockdowns with its augment. Neither of which are as viable as they should be anymore.

Nyx her initial "rework"/nerf demolished her Chaos, which was her bread and butter ability.

Mag's rework changed her Magnetize to be nowhere near as powerful as it was before, instead making her rely on her 2+3 (and sometimes 4) synergy. Again, changing the "core" ability in favor of a completely different playstyle.

 

7. Which reworks did bode very well?

NeZha, Excalibur, Saryn, and Limbo.

Why? None of these changed their core ability drastically (or even removed it).

NeZha's Ring was altered, but ended up giving him more tanking potential. His speed stayed intact, as well.

Excalibur's core ability, Radial Javelin, was turned into his 3rd ability, Slash Dash got Melee Combo added, and he got an all-new ultimate that suited his general theme and playstyle incredibly well.

Saryn was a typical "Press 4 to win" frame, but Saryn her Spores got changed (multiple times, sure) to synergize better with her other abilities, and her 4 is STILL a powerhouse, but requires a bit more lead-up. Combined with greater usability of her 3, she has become, once again, one of the top-tier frames.

Limbo's "Rift" and being untouchable was not infringed upon, it was actually EXPANDED upon. It became his passive instead of an ability. He got a proper Statis that synergizes extremely well with his Cataclysm, as well as making his Banish an AoE instead of single-target. His strengths were kept and improved upon.

 

8. Moral of the story:
Do not change the core aspects that made people stick with the frame in the first place. Defy required a specific build of duration, tankiness, and efficiency to pan out properly. It was not "Press Button To Win" ability, as it offered nothing but survivability. It was, quite literally, THE reason people still bothered with Wukong. 

The WIP rework, as shown in Dev Stream 128, has (IMO) completely missed what Wukong was supposed to be: A rampant annoyance on the battlefield. He cannot be as he is depicted in his origins as that would break the game, and that's okay, really, but it seems like we're swapping the old mismatched and lacking abilities for, presumably, new abilities with more of the same issues.

Please, reconsider what you are doing to him. You initially said that you want the rework to come out with his Deluxe Skin, but if we're following the MM/FF Prime Access schedule, as well as the chronological releases we've come to uphold and maintain, the next primed frames are going to be Atlas, and then Wukong. Releasing the rework alongside Wukong Prime is a very acceptable (and maybe even desirable) alternative if time is the constraining issue here.

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4 minutes ago, JariWeis said:

His bread and butter ability

Lol.

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Make your mind up. :wink:

All i see is that Warframe, the game, is about being situationally best. And wukong, a small part of the system, stops being one of its peaks is a contradiction? Not at all. He simply falls off in that system. You might have started with that so i can point out frames like ember that aint at the top in anything right now and need a rework. Your misinterpretations are not my concern.

As for revenant vs wukong, yes its arguable. Both can take on anything, but technically revenant must restore his charges way more often than wukong needs to restore his defy. So that little time he can take some more damage and that makes him the thoughest. Even if i'm not 100% on this, it matters little, he can't be killed if managed so he's either top or on par with revenant - i.e. still top.

You're still in denial and i see that you ignored the trinity argument - thank you for which, i see that you're not worth arguing with because of that. I no longer care. Bye.

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Look, I get it.  Baruuk's 4 being built up by his other abilities for him to unlock and expend sounds good and all, until he does an actual mission with other players.  As he has to crowd control for his 4, Excalibur (or anyone else really) can beat him to all the kills in many missions.

As for Wukong:  if you're going to give his 4th ability a DMC style build up mechanic, it should go "full on" devil trigger and buff up the base ability rather than lock him out of it.  Don't make him like Baruuk, who has to fight his teammates to get to enemies to CC them first to use his 4 to kill them to go back to finding someone to CC just to wield his 4.

Very rough example:  as Wukong lands multiple consecutive hits on every swing with Iron Staff, he builds up a meter.  At maximum, channel while using Wukong's 4 to pulse radial waves of damage that stun enemies and open them to finishers in an area with each consecutive attack.  Swinging and not hitting an enemy, or remaining out of combat, starts a decay back to zero on the meter.  Hitting another enemy pauses the decay.

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1 minute ago, scourge213 said:

All i see is that Warframe, the game, is about being situationally best.

Yes, that's what you see. That's my point. What you see, how you perceive the game, isn't going to be the same way everyone else sees the game, including the developers.

The game to you may be about every frame having it's niche and being the best at something, but you can't prove that that is design intent, and thus it isn't relevant to an argument.

3 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

As for revenant vs wukong, yes its arguable. Both can take on anything, but technically revenant must restore his charges way more often than wukong needs to restore his defy. So that little time he can take some more damage and that makes him the thoughest. Even if i'm not 100% on this, it matters little, he can't be killed if managed so he's either top or on par with revenant - i.e. still top.

I'd take Revenant any day, because whilst he might need to recharge more often he has no energy concerns as Zenurik or pads can recharge him whenever it's required. Wukong generally speaking can run into energy concerns, especially when taking into account environmental and self damage which won't charge him up via Rage.

And even forgetting energy for a second, even if toughnesswise both abilities are on par, Mesmer Skin still wins because it has other uses in the form of free casts of your #1, stuns and the ability to recharge it via Reave reducing the time you go without Mesmer Skin active.

Wukong has no niche, Defy is not a good ability.

6 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

You're still in denial and i see that you ignored the trinity argument

It's not relevant. She can still take on an army, just as she was able to do from the very beginning. The point you think you're making, you're not making.

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That new clone ability looked like the most useless ability I've ever seen in a rework. Cloudwalker still looked terrible. Defy is F. 

Onwards to looking like a great rework! /s

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

open them to finishers

Don't open them up to finishers as the finisher animation takes too long with the iron staff, instead just increase the damage they take OR strip the enemies armour.

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