Wukong rework first impressions

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, ZoneDymo said:

I understand that sometimes straight duration is better, BUT when casting a buddy, that you just want to have all the time, at least I do, channeling would be better if its a bit cheap.

Sorry, but no, we did the maths on it. At no point is a Drain ability a better choice than a long Duration cast. It's not opinion, it's proven fact. For the simple reason that just an Energy Siphon will mitigate the cost of 18 energy (130% Efficiency) in 30 seconds, so the net cost is 0 or less if the ability lasts longer, while a Drain ability would not only cost energy, it would prevent you getting energy back for the other abilities you want to cast in the mean time. If you're using Zenurik, you can make the energy cost back in seconds, while the Drain will completely remove that as an option.

That's the literal reason that some abilities are Drains in the first place, like Peacemaker, Hysteria or Exalted Blade. It's a literal nerf to prevent you using that ability permanently, you must come out of it unless you're killing fast enough that the RNG on Energy Orbs can sustain you, or you're at a low enough level that you can exploit the Rage mechanic to take damage for energy. Hysteria used to be a Duration, it was considered too powerful as one because you would never have to come out of it except for the duration of the recast, you would always have the energy necessary by the time the next recast came around. It was put on a Drain to prevent this exact level of power.

You might not personally like to recast abilities, and there are people that would join you on that. But no, a Drain is never a preference over a Duration from an objective standpoint. It's just a nerf, and that's what DE literally uses it for.

If DE are taking off the Drains from Wukong, then be happy. Literally be happy and don't try to put them back on.

[Violet_Xe]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

We got this information on Friday though?

Well yes we got this info friday. but they aren't coming back till tennocon. maybe some leaks on purpose via twitter but other than that, we've got nothing. Unless I'm missing something. Wu Kong development will go dark until then.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

Well yes we got this info friday. but they aren't coming back till tennocon. maybe some leaks on purpose via twitter but other than that, we've got nothing. Unless I'm missing something. Wu Kong development will go dark until then.

Sorry, misunderstood. Non-issue to me personally.

[(PSN)sonicizanagi]

17 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If DE are taking off the Drains from Wukong, then be happy. Literally be happy and don't try to put them back on.

If its not recastable than no but if so than I have no problem but will still prefer something else.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, ZoneDymo said:

 

I would think that would be self evident from the criticism, Iron Jab is a fine ability, it sends a single target flying, does good damage that is further enhanced by your melee mods.
Fight a crowd of enemies, spot the strong, for example Nox enemy, knock him away with Iron Jab and carry on.

As far as 1st abilities are concerned its a solid one, fast, strong and if not deadly at least capable of controlling the threat.

It’s not self evident when you’re defending a bad ability.

Iron Jab does pitiful damage. Ragdoll CC of a single enemy does not make up for that either.

If I’m in a crowd of enemies and see a Nox it’s much more efficient to disable it rather than just bunt it away. Like freezing it with Frosts 1. Any of the other heavy units are significantly less tank than them tho and can be dispatched along with the grunts.

As far as first abilities go it’s incredibly outclassed. We live in the time of frames like. Nidus, Garuda, and Atlas who show that not only can first abilities be good, they can be the best ability of the frames kit.

[Violet_Xe]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s not self evident when you’re defending a bad ability.

Iron Jab does pitiful damage. Ragdoll CC of a single enemy does not make up for that either.

If I’m in a crowd of enemies and see a Nox it’s much more efficient to disable it rather than just bunt it away. Like freezing it with Frosts 1. Any of the other heavy units are significantly less tank than them tho and can be dispatched along with the grunts.

As far as first abilities go it’s incredibly outclassed. We live in the time of frames like. Nidus, Garuda, and Atlas who show that not only can first abilities be good, they can be the best ability of the frames kit.

I actually missed this, huh.Yeah iron jab, unless it does scaling damage, just doesn't work in his kit and i'm happy it was taken out for something else.

We have spores which can do upwards of 6k damage to over 20 enemies and applies corrosive
We have Garuda who can instant kill and bomb enemies in blood baths for 50k-ish damage.
We have Atlas who punches enemies out of existence if modded right
We have Nidus who's got amazing synergy and an incredible first damage ability.
Ivara's got an endless quiver that can put enemies to sleep, distract enemies, create giant cloaking fields, and make ziplines
Banshee can do more but better and has an even better augment which strips armor.
Harrow can pretty much chain an army in place.
Khora whips enemies for massive splash and long crowd control
Inaros can pocket sand covert kill enemies to regain health
Mag can do the same thing but pull enemies towards her, it's now strong but it affects more enemies.
Mallet is a thing from Octavia
Wisp has some of the best team buffs with broken reservoirs that has cc, healing, and speed.
Ash can completely strip armor off several enemies
Baruuk can hold a staring contest with heavy gunners and be fine.

So yeah... how does iropn jab compare to those exactly? Some of them literally just do iron jab's job but better, others kill enemies rather than booping the enemy out of the way. A clone is honestly more useful than jab. Granted yes iron jab would be fun to use, but you could easily just add that to Primal Fury no?

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Violet_Xe said:

Yeah iron jab, unless it does scaling damage, just doesn't work in his kit and i'm happy it was taken out for something else

Even with scaling damage it would be useless. The time spent casting and potentially hitting a single enemy can be better served by just bullet jumping and attacking, thus hitting every enemy.

[Violet_Xe]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Even with scaling damage it would be useless. The time spent casting and potentially hitting a single enemy can be better served by just bullet jumping and attacking, thus hitting every enemy.

Trying to give some benefit of the doubt 😄 but I do honestly think that if it was given some semblance of scaling it could be used... sometimes. But that's why it should be removed because just simply put other abilities would be better.

I've seen some cool modifications to Iron Jab that make it somewhat ok, like a sweeping variant that trips all enemies in a cone in front of Wu Kong. or maybe some special interaction by marking the booped enemy to blow up for X% of max hp. All abilities can be made better but iron jab is just better off gone for a different ability.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Violet_Xe said:

Trying to give some benefit of the doubt 😄 but I do honestly think that if it was given some semblance of scaling it could be used... sometimes. But that's why it should be removed because just simply put other abilities would be better.

I've seen some cool modifications to Iron Jab that make it somewhat ok, like a sweeping variant that trips all enemies in a cone in front of Wu Kong. or maybe some special interaction by marking the booped enemy to blow up for X% of max hp. All abilities can be made better but iron jab is just better off gone for a different ability.

My proposal involved actively leaping to a target to jab them, in a manner similar to Garuda. Would provide much needed mobility.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

If you actually knew what you were talking about you would know Sun Wukong erased his name from the book of Life and death and also took the pills of longevity. So I'm not seeing your point for acknowledging a part of his lore and praising it (hair of the king) for being in his kit, While defy is in his kit you want to dismiss it. It makes absolutely no sense and with out the ability he would be dead long before he could accomplish anything lore and gameplay wise.

Um, what? Again, where exactly does Defy represent anything that you've just described, other than only the vaguest notion of tankiness? Again, I'm not saying Wukong shouldn't be tanky, I think he should be tanky too, my point is that Defy is the absolute least interactive way of going about it, and trying to claim that it's thematic or a part of Sun Wukong's lore reeks of desperation. Just admit you want to avoid death with zero effort.

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes it maybe "unique" turning into a cloud to increase movement in that mode, But how useful is that when you have bullet jumps and defy not very. Oh you get stealth multipliers yes that nice, But why would a tank need that when it only affects a hand full of enemies around  while slowing down gameplay  him yeah very game changing isn't it.

... it lets him avoid damage, and lets him deal more damage, while also giving him a unique stealth component? You seem to believe that tanks should only take damage and nothing else, while utterly failing to realize that Wukong is incredibly unpopular precisely because the only thing he can do adequately is survive damage. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Oh but what about the bonus critical chance not really useful when you have an augment for the 4 which will trivialize the 3 to begin with.

You... you do realize critical strike chance can go beyond 100% to give orange and red crits, right? It's not like one bonus cancels the other one out, and you reasoning along those lines leads me to believe you may not be nearly as knowledgeable about the game or warframe as you are trying to come across.

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

If you polish a turd it's still a turd so I'm not getting why your defending this poor ability,

... because I don't think it's poor? Just because you personally do not like that one ability does not mean that that ability is objectively bad, nor that anyone is a baddie just for disagreeing with you on the matter.

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

they are killing his survivability in order to keep this ability around what aren't you understanding.

I'm sorry, where did DE claim that they were "killing his survivability"? Do you have any of the numbers for the new abilities under discussion? Because you seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions in order to whine about how the Wukong rework will be a massive nerf, when you don't even know how tanky the new Defy will let him become. In other words, you're making a lot of grand claims with seemingly absolute certainty on things you cannot possibly know anything about.

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

And remember when D.E said they were going to give Wukong a full rework this is just an ability change with a big Nerf and buffs that don't really matter.

Literally every active ability is receiving some change, and his 1 and 2 are completely different. It is a full rework, just not the one you want. For someone who tries to make themselves look like they care so much about Wukong, your insistence on throwing away his literal entire kit for something different, aside from one notoriously problematic ability you are hypocritically defending, suggests the opposite. If you want a tank that doesn't need to do anything in order to survive, why not just play Inaros?

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

How is effectively killing everything through the wall not boring

... you have to actually gauge where your opponents are? I can agree that Exalted Blade gets boring when it's easily spammed and leads to camping strats, but that got nerfed, and the core idea of a lightwave-launching sword is largely considered fun and interesting. Defy, on the other hand, is notorious for being exceptionally uninteresting.

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

how is taking any threat and trivializing it for your whole team not boring when you can say the same for wukong's defy.

Because Blessing requires Trinity's active participation, whereas Defy is just a toggle? Your comparisons are absurd.

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Again it makes no sense and actually the gameplay behind defy is being a tank that takes the blows your team can't,

... that's not gameplay, though. Plenty of frames are capable of "being the tank that takes the blows your team can't", except they tend to do it in much more interesting ways, e.g. Atlas generating armor from rubble, Hildryn stealing shields, Rhino using augments and playing enemy bowling to rack up massive Iron Skin values, and so on. Pressing a button at the start of a mission to not die, on the other hand, is about as passive as it gets, second only to Inaros's ridiculous base stats (and even then, Inaros has some abilities that are actually interesting).

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

while I don't have a problem with the added aggro to enemies out right nerfing that ability keeps Wukong from being useful. Yes you taunt enemies and you can take the hits but what about when your stun-locked and you die from something beyond your control,

How is itanerf? Explain to me which piece of information you have, that nobody else seems to possess, that leads you to believe that Wukong is getting a nerf? Do you know how strong the durability buff will be? How long it will last? How powerful the taunt and damage reflection will be? Because if not, why pretend that you do?

2 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

and making defy a passive will open up a space for another ability that can be beneficial for his kit. So then you can freely rework the kit so that both sides can be happy how are you not understanding this, Effectively freeing up space he will be able to adopt another trait to his kit and isn't that what everyone wants for Wukong to be a helpful teammate besides tanking?

Passive - Defy: Wukong can't die.

Yeah, brilliant idea right there. Such interactive, very gameplay. 🤦‍♂️

... but yeah, if you honestly cannot see what is wrong with moving Defy to Wukong's passive, and thereby making it some always-on, drain-free effect that would permanently save him from lethal damage, I don't think I'm the one failing to understand anything here.

 

[toyetic]

Hopefully someone at DE working on the wukong rework will take note of this. From what I've seen about 4 topics have been merged into this singular topic, I would even go so far as to call this a megathread at this point. Even though there has been arguments and disagreements a lot of good feedback was presented that could make the proposed rework very good. Even though it's unlikely someone from digital extremes will take the time to read this and even more unlikely they'll take any of it , the good or the bad, in consideration it's nice knowing theres always a community willing to discuss these things in the hopes they do take our advice. TY all 🙂 

Edited May 27, 2019 by toyetic

[Atsia]

2 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

Well yes we got this info friday. but they aren't coming back till tennocon. maybe some leaks on purpose via twitter but other than that, we've got nothing. Unless I'm missing something. Wu Kong development will go dark until then.

You're assuming we're not gonna hear anything about it at TennoCon on any of the streams.

[UltraLYT]

7 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The problem with DE (that persists) is that they often nerf overused abilities and buff ones that players don't use, to make things more balanced in terms of usage, not knowing that most players do not use warframes with all abilities, but rely on 1 ability for a specific task.

Obviously they slap the deluxe skin to try and revamp the warframe and reduce complaints, but at this point, a deluxe skin is a sign of bad changes.

Defy is usefull since it's an invencibility ability that costs energy, making other tank warframes more deadly overall and usefull if energy is really a concern, nerfin the ability may turn the entire warframe worthless since the task meant for it is no longer possible.

Am i happy with the changes? No

Will this change anything overall? No. Players that are effient remain efficient, those that are inefficient will remain like that, nothing really changes since the player ultimately makes the difference, not the warframe.

My issue is that i made wukonk for a purpose (it's existance in my inventory has a reason), if the ability becomes unreliable or has other unreliable mechanics behind it, then the warframe usage will drop even more, atleast for me.

Exactly, Wukong is useful for specific tasks because of Defy.  Players who use him extensively for these tasks are mostly veterans, because only veterans would have amassed a wide range of heavily forma'd powerful weapons that go well with Wukong because he has no buff himself, building up a wide range of heavily forma'd arsenal takes a lot of times and works.

I have nearly 3k hours of playtime (non-steam), 10.5% for using Wukong, removing the current level of invincibility of Defy will destroy the player base full of veterans who devoted lots of times and efforts in building up their Wukong for specific tasks, I have a feeling DE have no respect to these veterans just in favor of new comers and players who have no interest in playing him before.

But you know what, DE?   I have seen new players in Hydron who have playtime of only about a hundred hours completely outperformed the whole team without doing much by using Saryn, why would they use a taunting Wukong with a free spector who could not even handle self damaging weapons?  Wukong in such a state is not a monkey god at all, he is just a taunting monkey.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

My proposal involved actively leaping to a target to jab them, in a manner similar to Garuda. Would provide much needed mobility.

Feel like it would serve better as a wide sweep on cast charge. As for mobility idk about others but being able to launch yourself opposite of where it hits sounds splendid. Even more so if they don't give it such pitiful range to blast off. 

Jumping upward but about to get shot by a rocket? Jab off a wall or ceiling or any other object nearby to get out of the way. About to get one shot? Jab to get out of danger. The augment ability to launch was a step in the right direction but when it was only off floors it was ew. x:

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

You know, given the fact that literally no feedback was used for Baruuk or Hildryn post release (Baruuks didn’t even get a feedback post). I don’t see how anything we say here is going to affect DE’s plan for Wukong.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You know, given the fact that literally no feedback was used for Baruuk or Hildryn post release (Baruuks didn’t even get a feedback post). I don’t see how anything we say here is going to affect DE’s plan for Wukong.

true. Thinking that listen to player feedback thing is baloney. 

[Violet_Xe]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You know, given the fact that literally no feedback was used for Baruuk or Hildryn post release (Baruuks didn’t even get a feedback post). I don’t see how anything we say here is going to affect DE’s plan for Wukong.

 

1 minute ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

true. Thinking that listen to player feedback thing is baloney. 

No there's always hope they will. during oberon, hydroid, and nezha, they listened to feedback and built around what the community talked about. Maybe were putting in feedback too early and they'll ignore us because he's so far into the "concept" part that feedback has little to no meaning to them, or maybe they will listen to us. We honestly can never tell with DE.

As for baruuk and Hildy, we did't get much on them probably because they had really good releases. Also the fact that not many players even had access to them. Wu Kong should be different though. He's one of the frames people have instant access too upon starting the game because of clans. I they want to better the new player experience they need to nail Wu Kong down.

[(PSN)sonicizanagi]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Um, what? Again, where exactly does Defy represent anything that you've just described, other than only the vaguest notion of tankiness? Again, I'm not saying Wukong shouldn't be tanky, I think he should be tanky too, my point is that Defy is the absolute least interactive way of going about it, and trying to claim that it's thematic or a part of Sun Wukong's lore reeks of desperation. Just admit you want to avoid death with zero effort.

Because that is what defy is based on how are you not you not understanding, and I said I'm not opposed to buffing and or adding some mechanic to this ability. And what is up with the condensing attitude I just pointed out how eager you were to have a built in Warframe specter which isn't the least bit interesting and almost as boring as defy because the game is basically playing it self. But insist on getting rid of defy which can be fixed with a decent balance. And defy is a core part of his lore and kit as I have to state again, if you don't believe me you can skim a wiki since that seems to be how much effort your putting into your argument. And really that's a very weak counter argument I've spent 4 years in this game.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

it lets him avoid damage, and lets him deal more damage, while also giving him a unique stealth component? You seem to believe that tanks should only take damage and nothing else, while utterly failing to realize that Wukong is incredibly unpopular precisely because the only thing he can do adequately is survive damage. 

Yes... I get that but you will have teammates that will likey be killing the enemies before you use the movement speed in the cloud, the crit buff is questionable, But stealth is literally not a factor for Wukong because it's counter intuitive for defy have you ever used it?Not very impactful when you just use your primary and it gets the job done faster. Yes Wukong only trick is his survivability but this rework is to expand upon his kit and add what he is lacking.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You... you do realize critical strike chance can go beyond 100% to give orange and red crits, right? It's not like one bonus cancels the other one out, and you reasoning along those lines leads me to believe you may not be nearly as knowledgeable about the game or warframe as you are trying to come across

Yeah I realize that but as I must state again. They are tacking buffs on to a dead ability how many times have you used cloud walker when playing a mission? Is a crit buff going to encourage you to use it more? I don't know maybe if its significant but if it isn't and it's mediocre let me state this again. an ability that is movement based is more useless than parkour, has a minimal duration so you can apply stealth, and probably has a dismal crit chance. yeah it's slightly better but it's still a dead ability that kills the speed of the game your wasting energy for what people usually complain about slow, clucky, and frankly boring abilities and your argument is displaying your ignorance on this topic. Yeah I know It can be a great kit but the way we were presented the WIP rework really was disorganized, slapped together, and frankly nobody seemed to offer any attempt of asking the community for feedback like they did with Sayrn. Which already is questionable since this is a long awaited thing for the rework category, also this is was on the last devstream before tennocon which means we may or may not get in depth showings of the kit.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

because I don't think it's poor? Just because you personally do not like that one ability does not mean that that ability is objectively bad, nor that anyone is a baddie just for disagreeing with you on the matter

Tell me a redeeming quality about this ability post rework. Personally I would like it to be better but at the rate we're going this is not improving Wukong if any other frame got this buff then maybe it would be very beneficial to keep but for Wukong this is a no-go and yes you can have differing opinions I don't care but if these opinions are going to effect a frame that is going to change dramatically then I would like to know the reasoning instead of you just trying to be contrarian to the points I'm making.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, where did DE claim that they were "killing his survivability"? Do you have any of the numbers for the new abilities under discussion? Because you seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions in order to whine about how the Wukong rework will be a massive nerf, when you don't even know how tanky the new Defy will let him become. In other words, you're making a lot of grand claims with seemingly absolute certainty on things you cannot possibly know anything about

This question I will come back to  and see if I find anything about that but it was an opinionated guess did you not read the title of the topic? Wukong rework first impressions and yes I don't know that's why i made the comments I did, If I knew I would lay it out and have a through discussion.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

that's not gameplay, though. Plenty of frames are capable of "being the tank that takes the blows your team can't", except they tend to do it in much more interesting ways, e.g. Atlas generating armor from rubble, Hildryn stealing shields, Rhino using augments and playing enemy bowling to rack up massive Iron Skin values, and so on. Pressing a button at the start of a mission to not die, on the other hand, is about as passive as it gets, second only to Inaros's ridiculous base stats (and even then, Inaros has some abilities that are actually interesting).

I did not say I was opposed to positive changes for this ability yes its passive but I would like to be interactive as much as anyone else but it wasn't stated to be recastable and that is a big Nerf yet we still have abilities like Revanent's but your not making a comparison on these 2 abilities Inaros has to work to keep his survivability.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Literally every active ability is receiving some change, and his 1 and 2 are completely different. It is a full rework, just not the one you want. For someone who tries to make themselves look like they care so much about Wukong, your insistence on throwing away his literal entire kit for something different, aside from one notoriously problematic ability you are hypocritically defending, suggests the opposite. If you want a tank that doesn't need to do anything in order to survive, why not just play Inaros?

Full rework means all abilities. 1 was completely changed while better it's not very impactful. 2 seem to aggro enemies while nerfing the capability of his survivability by having it turn to a duration instead of a Google while seemingly not being recastable. 3 is the same except an increased speed while in that mode and a crit chance bonus s was applied. 4 was literally just melee 3.0 while having a Barruk styled meter which will restraint his 4 as I must say again, Inaros is very interactive because all he can do is CC survive and heal while Wukong is a pseudo aggressive tank with dismal CC.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How is itanerf? Explain to me which piece of information you have, that nobody else seems to possess, that leads you to believe that Wukong is getting a nerf? Do you know how strong the durability buff will be? How long it will last? How powerful the taunt and damage reflection will be? Because if not, why pretend that you do?

As I have stated it was a first impression of the rework and i was assuming that would be the case based off what was shown.

 

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Passive - Defy: Wukong can't die.

Yeah, brilliant idea right there. Such interactive, very gameplay. 🤦‍♂️

... but yeah, if you honestly cannot see what is wrong with moving Defy to Wukong's passive, and thereby making it some always-on, drain-free effect that would permanently save him from lethal damage, I don't think I'm the one failing to understand anything here.

No a passive form of defy wear as he can't die but will.have hampered effects as in lowered movement speed which will give use to that cloud walker ability that you want to keep and making defy a passive will as I state again give him more room to work with a full rework of the kit.

[birdobash]

(Deleted duplicate post)

Edited May 27, 2019 by birdobash
It duplicated my post for no reason

[birdobash]

10 hours ago, ZoneDymo said:

Gotta back up that statement Im afraid, I know warframes dont exist in vaquums but lets compare 1st abilities for a bit and see how they hold up.

Imo Wukong's 1st beats out: Banshee, Chroma, Ember, Frost (ish kinda similair), Loki, Mag (well tied I guess, less damage but larger crowd affacted), Nekros, Rhino (also tied), Valkyr, Volt.

And while im not entirely against the idea of it being part of Primal Fury, that does mean you have to have PF activated to use it, which would kinda go against the "wow big guy, PLONK, bye big guy" sorta playstyle it allows now.

I don't think iron jab beats out certain ones that you say it beats out, but there are some where I agree it beats.

Taking a look at iron jab, it is a single target ragdoll, even if it scales off melee mods it's still pretty bad.

Iron jab beats:

Ember, Nekros, Valkyr, Volt, Chroma

Ember: Fireball has trash damage, and has a decently long travel time. The crowd control potential is generally on par BUT ember already has CC.

Nekros: it's just a less damaging version of iron jab, with extra ragdoll.

Valkyr: cast time is much longer and locks animation.

Volt: Bad damage and short crowd control.

Chroma: straight trash tier ability.

The rest I think they're objectively better than iron jab, either because they crowd control multiple enemies, have a better form of CC than ragdoll (which isn't a very good form of cc), or have gimmicks that make them much much better. Example being augments, OR specifically in the case of loki, decoy can be used to sort of manipulate and break enemy targeting AI and make them become unhostile.

Regardless, all of the abilities you listed are all old and outdated, and are purely still a thing because they haven't been updated since times where they were the norm. They really should all be tweaked and changed.

Edited May 27, 2019 by birdobash

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Don't be, whatever comes out bad I'll kick up a storm about.

You might end up broken and cynical like me since Zephyrs rework.

[Xepthrichros]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You might end up broken and cynical like me since Zephyrs rework.

I think he's already broken and cynical. Look at how long they took to finally address Wukong. Only other person I can think of who is quite as broken might be Rahetalius 😛

Edited May 27, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[SkyBlueFox1]

Boy, I haven't posted on a forum like this in... going on five years now, maybe? Bringing back some good memories. Miss stuff like this. Less of a mess compared to something like Twitter or Tumblr, y'know?

Anyway, is it okay for a semi-casual player to drop his two cents in on the Wukong rework? I realize my word might not be as impactful as someone who number-crunches the meta or whatever, but I've put like 750 hours into the game and 90% of that was Wukong (going by my game profile anyway), so you could say I have a bit of an attachment.

(And despite calling myself semi-casual, I'm around MR14, have done plenty of sorties and finished Harrow and Sacrifice in my last few months of playing. Even though I think most high level (70+, Eidolons/Wolf/actually most bosses tbh, etc) content suffers from Blizzard Difficulty Balancing that makes it horrifically unfun to play, I've still suffered through it.)

Defy isn't as much of a problem as the rest of the community (of people who don't play Wukong or just grinded him for mastery and tossed him in the bin, I should add) likes to meme it into. I didn't even build around it personally until I reinstalled the game for the third time this past holiday season, and I was able to get through about 3/4ths of the starchart without even realizing that it was possible to utilize Defy in this way. Speaking personally, I also find myself sometimes forgetting that I have it on in the heat of the moment, which then results in me suddenly remembering it's on, turning it off, and then not having a whole lot of energy later in this mission or that. To say nothing of the fact that magnetic damage/status is basically a hard counter to its usage, given Wukong's average energy pool. God knows I learned that the hard way. Multiple times.

Speaking personally again, I've always seen Wukong as the Luigi to Excalibur's Mario (or if I want to be cheeky and play my hand, the Zero to Excalibur's X 😜). Granted, this is partly because I bought Wukong with some holiday cash back in 2016 when I first joined the game, being the first new frame I acquired after Excalibur, but I think it's worth pointing out the obvious similarities. A 1 that serves as a melee attack of sorts with an Exalted weapon. A 2 that serves as some sort of supportive de/buff - in Excal's case, a blind-stun, in Wukong's case, invincibility. A 4 which is the exalted weapon. Not to mention similar stats: Wukong trades some sprint speed for a few extra shields, but otherwise they're pretty identical. And I liked that. I still like that. If anything, making Wukong an alternate Excalibur is how they should have done this rework, I even came up with an "alternative rework" of my own to push in that direction (if anyone's interest I could post it, even if it is too little too late now).

I'm honestly baffled by the rework news because it feels like DE listened to the community who turned the frame into a meme, rather than the people who actually enjoy playing him. And the worst part is, I can see the mindset they were working with. He """fits the Wukong mythos""" better, and in some strange world he has his weird little niche of "the guy who makes clones of himself", meaning he actually fills... some sort of purpose. But given the rework doesn't solve any of his ability-synergy problems and removes the one thing that made him good, thus shooting whatever goal it was aiming for in the foot... well, it makes me want to drop the game. As if getting burnt out by grinding Nightwave wasn't hard enough.

Edited May 27, 2019 by SkyBlueFox1

[Violet_Xe]

2 hours ago, birdobash said:

I don't think iron jab beats out certain ones that you say it beats out, but there are some where I agree it beats.

Taking a look at iron jab, it is a single target ragdoll, even if it scales off melee mods it's still pretty bad.

Iron jab beats:

Ember, Nekros, Valkyr, Volt, Chroma

Ember: Fireball has trash damage, and has a decently long travel time. The crowd control potential is generally on par BUT ember already has CC.

Nekros: it's just a less damaging version of iron jab, with extra ragdoll.

Valkyr: cast time is much longer and locks animation.

Volt: Bad damage and short crowd control.

Chroma: straight trash tier ability.

I wanna talk about this a bit. But these abilities have a saving grace.

Volt, his shock increases the shields damage. Looking at the ability itself isn't how you should judge an ability. it's ynergy with the kit should also be taken into account. Volt's first is better that Iron Jab.
Nekros has an incredible augment if you're in a tile and can't manage to spare the time to revive a team mate. it instantly revives someone. yes the damage sucks, however in a pinch it can be great. Yet there are better augments and nopt many nekros use the Soul Punch augment, but that being said, with the augment it allows nekros to do something to other warframe can do.
As for Chroma, ember, and valkyr, yeah iron jab beats those. those desperately need a touch up.
 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

 

No there's always hope they will. during oberon, hydroid, and nezha, they listened to feedback and built around what the community talked about. Maybe were putting in feedback too early and they'll ignore us because he's so far into the "concept" part that feedback has little to no meaning to them, or maybe they will listen to us. We honestly can never tell with DE.

As for baruuk and Hildy, we did't get much on them probably because they had really good releases. Also the fact that not many players even had access to them. Wu Kong should be different though. He's one of the frames people have instant access too upon starting the game because of clans. I they want to better the new player experience they need to nail Wu Kong down.

They clearly didn’t go to the community for Hydroid rework ideas because he still has undertow, the one ability everyone wanted removed.

Oberon was a frame everyone agreed was good ability wise but needed to be stronger.

Nobody talked about Nezha reworks. Pablo just dropped the god tier rework on us.

there is a good percentage of the community that just buys the frame right out. So saying that “not enough people played Baruuk and Hildryn” is a flat out lie as there are more than enough people to give feedback on the frame. Heck there’s already over 200 comments on the Wisp feedback and it hasn’t even been a week since she’s been out.

And you’re mistaking “ok releases” for “really good releases”. Baruuks 4 is still embarrassingly weak when compared to the other exalted melees and Hildryn is still useless against Infested as well as her 4 being super restrictive with no benefits outside of “it Crowd Controls” and her 3 having an insanely high shield/sec cost against enemies for what’s literally just a single stagger and low damage.