Why Spin2Win is hated so much?

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Illgore said:

But stop assuming that a majority of a griunding game ain't have any efficiency ambitions. 

I didn't, Sunshine. 

Would you like me to repeat what I said again?

"Many of us don't play for efficiency".

That's not me saying the majority, that's not me giving a number or percentage at all, just a statement that there is a relevant number of people who actively dislike the hyper efficient tactics.

Cute strawman though, it gets a 2/10 from me.

Continuing to go on about the matchmaking options is not as cute, it gets an 8/10 on the not-cute scale, it's still not relevant to my post and I'm still waiting for you to get that.

[Illgore]

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I didn't, Sunshine. 

Would you like me to repeat what I said again?

"Many of us don't play for efficiency".

That's not me saying the majority, that's not me giving a number or percentage at all, just a statement that there is a relevant number of people who actively dislike the hyper efficient tactics.

and did I accept that if I wasn't clear enough. But those "relevant number of people" (which I am counting myself into them) already have tools to look for people with their playstyle.

But if you say, there is a large amount of people who dislike those tools for finding non efficiency driven people or that they would like to skip the needed social interaction, than I doubt that. Is it so hard to find a guild with your mindset? For me it wasn't. Advertising warframe to your online friends with similar mindset is also an alternative. And if you don't have online friends with similar mindset, than you should invest some time into finding a few in warframe.

You could also make a topic for looking for more people/a guild with your mindset, but you did choose to complain that there isn't any single button press to fix your problem.

And if you do want a single button press solution, I already advertised the speedrun random group and slow spaced random group option. But as it seems, that doesn't satisfy you either. So what kind of solution have you in mind? You just press random and the game reads your mind if you want a speedrun or not? You have to at least tell the game in some kind what you want or else it won't work. Either by more socializing (chatting before joing a mission) or asking for the mentioned one button solution (aka 2nd random group option for slow spaced non social groups).

So what is it what you want? Or did you just needed to vent off here?

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Illgore said:

So what is it what you want?

To answer the OP's question, which I did quite succinctly.

Remember the OP? They're the person I directed that original post at, not you, but you've decided to push this huge argument regarding matchmaking on me, despite it being IRRELEVANT to my post.

I've told it's irrelevant multiple times now, and yet you still don't get it.

So I'll throw your question back at you, why did you quote me and respond to my statement regarding "many of us don't play for efficiency" with an irrelevant argument that you keep pushing over and over again? What is it that you want, or did you just need to vent?

[JujuHex]

The difference between Warframes with AoE room clearing powers and meme-strike-bot-macro-abusers is that the first looks cool doing it, and the second looks absurdly lame.

[Sylonus]

On 2019-06-13 at 5:03 AM, Jiminez_Burial said:

As stated by DeMonkey, the people who hate spin2win also hate those Warframes.  And at the end of the day it's not really the act itself that annoys us, it's the fact that you obviously didn't need to join a squad in order to be as efficient ('cause you're gonna one hit everything anyway) and yet you still did.  Do that in solo and no-one will complain.

I agree that most of those who hate spin2win also hate Warframes with high clear potential. But about the "don't need to join a squad part", this depends on the situation. Unless I'm mistaken, more players = more enemies = more affinity, so often people who are trying to maximize efficiency do in fact need to join a squad to maximize their efficiency. I frequently play Saryn on Hydron for instance, usually to level a friend's weapons quickly, most of the people I random queue with are like, "Yay a carry.", though you do get the occasional complainer.

I personally would say the onus is on the person who "doesn't want to play with certain playstyles" to opt out of random queue, rather than anyone with a specific playstyle choice.

[000l000]

I don't mind spinning but spin-2-win is more like (1) exploit max range to not bother with enemies targeting and (2) using a macro or stupidly spamming spinning attacks to exploit animation speed.

Problem most players have with spin-2-win players is that they're lazy and using badly balanced features to clean the map faster than aiming & shooting. At this point there's something people tend to forget, they're not playing alone and perhaps there would be less toxicity in this kind of games if players weren't so selfish, hence only caring about their own experience and not caring at all about other people potential fun.

Tbh games were way much fun when grind or farm weren't even a thing, nowadays many players consider games as a job, with dull objectives instead of really enjoying what they're doing. As far as i'm concerned i don't even see what's really fun in spamming all day long the same command, but to each their own.

[ShadowStalker]

23 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

I don't mind spinning but spin-2-win is more like (1) exploit max range to not bother with enemies targeting and (2) using a macro or stupidly spamming spinning attacks to exploit animation speed.

Problem most players have with spin-2-win players is that they're lazy and using badly balanced features to clean the map faster than aiming & shooting. At this point there's something people tend to forget, they're not playing alone and perhaps there would be less toxicity in this kind of games if players weren't so selfish, hence only caring about their own experience and not caring at all about other people potential fun.

Tbh games were way much fun when grind or farm weren't even a thing, nowadays many players consider games as a job, with dull objectives instead of really enjoying what they're doing. As far as i'm concerned i don't even see what's really fun in spamming all day long the same command, but to each their own.

For me and a lot of other people spin2win/Aoe Nukes/Instant Kills  and completing missions fast is fun and its really selfish when someone wants to drag out a 5 min extermination mission into an hour long mission just because they want to play in slow motion with really inefficient  weapons/frames/methods 

[--END--Rikutatis]

On 2019-06-13 at 7:03 AM, Jiminez_Burial said:

As stated by DeMonkey, the people who hate spin2win also hate those Warframes.  And at the end of the day it's not really the act itself that annoys us, it's the fact that you obviously didn't need to join a squad in order to be as efficient ('cause you're gonna one hit everything anyway) and yet you still did.  Do that in solo and no-one will complain.

Dude, if you hate spin2win, saryn, mesa, equinox and god knows what else, I think you're the one who should be playing solo, instead of expecting anyone who uses AoE dps to go play solo. And I don't even like spin2win, I think it's boring. 

[YUNoJump]

2 hours ago, ShadowStalker said:

For me and a lot of other people spin2win/Aoe Nukes/Instant Kills  and completing missions fast is fun and its really selfish when someone wants to drag out a 5 min extermination mission into an hour long mission just because they want to play in slow motion with really inefficient  weapons/frames/methods 

Their method is the default way to play the game though, If you asked most people (and the devs) how Warframe is designed to be played, they wouldn't say "spamming powerful AoE abilities ad infinitum", they'd say something like "a shooter with in-depth melee features and various types of superpowers". Spin2Win may be allowed to exist but it shouldn't be developed as a primary form of combat.

People also shouldn't have to match the speed of the fastest person in the mission. There are builds in the game that outclass all available content other than endurance runs, and bringing those builds to content below that level doesn't mean that people using the builds designed for that level are "dragging out" the mission. If you're using builds or strategies that outclass the mission's level then you aren't in charge of everyone else's speed, and Spin2Win builds/map clearing oneshots are a type of build that outclasses all available content, especially with my first point in mind regarding the intended playstyle of the game. 

It's fine to want to go fast using whatever build you want, but nobody is in charge in a pub group, and nobody in those groups should be forced to adhere to the playstyle of someone using an abnormal build. If you want to speedrun the game, find friends, or Recruiting chat squads, who can understand your plan before you subject them to it.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Their method is the default way to play the game though, If you asked most people (and the devs) how Warframe is designed to be played, they wouldn't say "spamming powerful AoE abilities ad infinitum", they'd say something like "a shooter with in-depth melee features and various types of superpowers". Spin2Win may be allowed to exist but it shouldn't be developed as a primary form of combat.

I would say that this is false. 

In a pub mission, nobody should be allowed to dictate the pace, because it is a pub game.  The people using the "abnormal builds" you speak of also do not deserve to have to pander to those without. The bottom line is: don't drag your team back if you are the weakest/slowest, but don't expect them to keep up if you are the strongest/fastest. It is a pub game of randoms. You can't expect anything from anyone, but again, no one can expect anything from you except the most basic of etiquette.

[Jiminez_Burial]

1 minute ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Dude, if you hate spin2win, saryn, mesa, equinox and god knows what else, I think you're the one who should be playing solo, instead of expecting anyone who uses AoE dps to go play solo. And I don't even like spin2win, I think it's boring. 

Your assumption is that I don't play solo most of the time.  I'm not one of those people who complains about stuff and keeps doing what they're doing when there's a way out, I took the way out.  If I'm doing basically anything other than random fissures then I do choose solo.  I'm just explaining why we hate it.  And before you make another assumption and ask "Well if you play solo all the time how do you know you hate spin2win", there was a time when spin2win wasn't as prominent as it is now.  Yes coptering meant people were doing it but they didn't have the broken mods we now do, nor did we even have whips/tonfas.  When it became common is when I became a mostly solo player.  If I don't have much time a particular day I might even take a basic spin2win melee and put it on my Ember/Equinox but the key difference is I always make sure I'm solo, I never subject others to it.  It all comes down to basic courtesy - I get physically angry when someone knows very clearly that what they're doing is annoying a total stranger (obviously friends doing it to eachother is fine) and they just don't give a damn.

[--END--Rikutatis]

2 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Your assumption is that I don't play solo most of the time.  I'm not one of those people who complains about stuff and keeps doing what they're doing when there's a way out, I took the way out.  If I'm doing basically anything other than random fissures then I do choose solo.  I'm just explaining why we hate it.  And before you make another assumption and ask "Well if you play solo all the time how do you know you hate spin2win", there was a time when spin2win wasn't as prominent as it is now.  Yes coptering meant people were doing it but they didn't have the broken mods we now do, nor did we even have whips/tonfas.  When it became common is when I became a mostly solo player.  If I don't have much time a particular day I might even take a basic spin2win melee and put it on my Ember/Equinox but the key difference is I always make sure I'm solo, I never subject others to it.  It all comes down to basic courtesy - I get physically angry when someone knows very clearly that what they're doing is annoying a total stranger (obviously friends doing it to eachother is fine) and they just don't give a damn.

For me it's not really a matter of courtesy, but rather game design and rampant power creep in the name of "Fun". The devs allowed the game to come to this point. Some builds like spin2win and AoE nuke frames can clear entire maps before the other player even had a chance to swap his weapon. Can't really expect common courtesy among strangers on the internet to address this, it's a game balance and design issue, a dev responsability. If the game allows it, even encourages it, we really shouldn't be blaming the players who use it, but rather the devs who let these broken mechanics like meme strike+blood rush to fester in the game for years.

[YUNoJump]

1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

I would say that this is false. 

In a pub mission, nobody should be allowed to dictate the pace, because it is a pub game.  The people using the "abnormal builds" you speak of also do not deserve to have to pander to those without. The bottom line is: don't drag your team back if you are the weakest/slowest, but don't expect them to keep up if you are the strongest/fastest. It is a pub game of randoms. You can't expect anything from anyone, but again, no one can expect anything from you except the most basic of etiquette.

I partially agree that playstyle shouldn't be largely restricted in pub groups, but the intended level of the mission should be considered, and meta map-nuking builds are currently vastly overpowered for all available content. 

Mission level, along with the specific mission type, should be the most major factors in deciding what gear you will bring to a pub group, because those are the factors that you know about before loading into the mission. You know what you are getting into, basically. Because of this, bringing overpowered gear for any given mission is just as bad as bringing underpowered gear, because you are actively building for a different set of parameters from what the mission is offering. Many Spin2Win/map nuke builds outclass even level 100 enemies, and are not effectively countered by anything in the game, making them overpowered in pretty much any pub mission you'd ever join. Using such overpowered gear at lower levels means that you are voluntarily outclassing the intended audience of that mission, i.e. people using gear that is balanced for that mission.

This leads to OP players wiping the entire map very quickly, while the players that are supposed to be receiving a challenge struggle to keep up through no fault of their own. This means that they are effectively being denied the intended function of the game itself.

[Test-995]

58 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

I partially agree that playstyle shouldn't be largely restricted in pub groups, but the intended level of the mission should be considered, and meta map-nuking builds are currently vastly overpowered for all available content. 

Mission level, along with the specific mission type, should be the most major factors in deciding what gear you will bring to a pub group, because those are the factors that you know about before loading into the mission. You know what you are getting into, basically. Because of this, bringing overpowered gear for any given mission is just as bad as bringing underpowered gear, because you are actively building for a different set of parameters from what the mission is offering. Many Spin2Win/map nuke builds outclass even level 100 enemies, and are not effectively countered by anything in the game, making them overpowered in pretty much any pub mission you'd ever join. Using such overpowered gear at lower levels means that you are voluntarily outclassing the intended audience of that mission, i.e. people using gear that is balanced for that mission.

This leads to OP players wiping the entire map very quickly, while the players that are supposed to be receiving a challenge struggle to keep up through no fault of their own. This means that they are effectively being denied the intended function of the game itself.

Game is always meant to be played in maximum efficiency, look at all those ~5% drop chances, look at those affinities for levelling, and how many times you have to level things, think about why gear power isn't restricted to mission level range, why OP players will be rewarded too in fast low-level content.

And for someone want to play their own way, this game has clan, recruit, and solo mode.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

This leads to OP players wiping the entire map very quickly, while the players that are supposed to be receiving a challenge struggle to keep up through no fault of their own. This means that they are effectively being denied the intended function of the game itself.

Which is why when one is undergeared, they should work hard towards better gear.

If you want to Speedrun/Play Underpower, do a Premade Comp, pretty muich. Pubs is going to be completely random and out of your rules.

I mean, I don't join Sortie spy expecting to fail 3 times in a row on pubs but it happens because some lazy players don't even learn the vaults.

[YUNoJump]

7 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Game is always meant to be played in maximum efficiency, look at all those ~5% drop chances, look at those affinities for levelling, and how many times you have to level things, think about why gear power isn't restricted to mission level range, why OP players will be rewarded too in fast low-level content.

And for someone want to play their own way, this game has clan, recruit, and solo mode.

That's true in practice, but the default state of pub missions should be the default playstyle the game has, which is being appropriately levelled. A person playing a mission with the correct gear for that level is more in the right than someone bringing gear designed for somewhere else. A MR26 player bringing a Plague Kripath with a riven to a Mercury mission doesn't have more of a right to dictate the speed of a mission than a player running appropriate starting gear.

Pub is the default choice for someone wanting to "play their own way", the game isn't designed for solo mode to be default, and organising a mission with recruiting or a clan allows you to set up your squad's builds before joining, meaning that they're a better choice for using abnormal builds.

As per my previous comment, factors in build choice can be decided based on what you know of a mission before entering it. That's only level and type for pub missions, but it can be anything if you are in direct communication with your squad while you are choosing your build.

6 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Which is why when one is undergeared, they should work hard towards better gear.

If you want to Speedrun/Play Underpower, do a Premade Comp, pretty muich. Pubs is going to be completely random and out of your rules.

I mean, I don't join Sortie spy expecting to fail 3 times in a row on pubs but it happens because some lazy players don't even learn the vaults.

"working hard towards better gear" is all well and good, but that doesn't mean that players who have passed that threshold don't need to care about other players in their missions. A player using overpowered map clears is negatively affecting other players' ability to use core gameplay, that doesn't go the other way other than the act of just running to the end past a pile of corpses. Pub shouldn't just be a race to finish the mission, by default it should be fun for the average player at that level.

Failing missions is a part of the game, causing a squad to fail the mission because of a lack of knowledge or ability isn't the same as causing a squad to miss out on combat because of an abundance of knowledge or ability. If you want to play in a squad which never fails missions, organise a squad before joining the mission. A balanced squad has an inherent risk of mission failure, and skilled players don't have a right to say that random pub players should be skilled enough to never fail missions by default.

[Test-995]

4 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

That's true in practice, but the default state of pub missions should be the default playstyle the game has, which is being appropriately levelled. A person playing a mission with the correct gear for that level is more in the right than someone bringing gear designed for somewhere else. A MR26 player bringing a Plague Kripath with a riven to a Mercury mission doesn't have more of a right to dictate the speed of a mission than a player running appropriate starting gear.

Pub is the default choice for someone wanting to "play their own way", the game isn't designed for solo mode to be default, and organising a mission with recruiting or a clan allows you to set up your squad's builds before joining, meaning that they're a better choice for using abnormal builds.

As per my previous comment, factors in build choice can be decided based on what you know of a mission before entering it. That's only level and type for pub missions, but it can be anything if you are in direct communication with your squad while you are choosing your build.

No, pub is never be the choice for someone who wanting to "play their own way", because, the more "play style" is, the more harder to achieve, and warframe has so much of way to play.

Pub is always meant to be "want someone, but don't care how they play", so you can't say S#&$ at someone who playing maximum efficiency (the way game is designed past some point) and someone who playing challenging way (and this is the way game is designed till some point)

Vets doesn't have right to dictate other's play style, neither newbie has.

[Izumi_S]

Well it's a game, just use what you want.

I wouldn't mind being carried when I toy with my arsenal of trash weapons such as the Ninkondi, there really is no reason to hate.

Catchmoon is the only broken weapon right now and everyone uses it. I mean spin-2-win isn't even that good when compared to that, esp in complicated maps with lots of obstacles and cliffs.

Why even bother spinning when you can one shot groups of enemies with the mushroom gun.

[Althaline]

1 hour ago, Izumi_S said:

Catchmoon is the only broken weapon right now and everyone uses it.

I miss the days when Catchmoon had the terrain collision bug that actually made it require skill to use properly.

Back to OPs point, I personally hate the no-skill plays, the weapons that require zero effort to clear everything on the map. Whether it's Ignis, Plasmor, whatever Whip you've Riven'd up today, it doesn't matter. It's not fun to play Walking Simulator 2014, I want to play Warframe, and that would require that the enemies I'm fighting don't mysteriously vanish the moment you decide to press your "I win" button.

[TheGreenFellow]

I don't care about making use of maiming strike. That's on D.E. for putting it there.

What I dislike is seeing obvious macro users that have 2-3 different attack speed mods on spamming spin attacks endlessly around the map.

[(PSN)Glitschig]

On 2019-06-13 at 9:48 AM, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

In my experience I find the spin to win player the first one to go down. So I patiently wait with my clap emote ready, for the inevitable, kinda like a hyperactive 4 year on to much sugar that you've told to slow down or you'll bump your head. 

 

I tend to notice the exact opposite.  It's usually the s2w frame bailing everyone out when theatres get high (casual groups with normal players, not pros like most when are reading here) 

[(PSN)Glitschig]

On 2019-06-13 at 3:10 PM, EndermTheSwordsman said:

I dislike it due to the absolute and utter lack of creativity it brings. I prefer to be creative and find interesting ways to fight that don't rely upon using the same copy and paste build that makes me mind-numbingly bored by doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over until the end of the mission, and take up the fun of BEING IN THE MISSION with a team. 

I apologize if I throw salt on this.  Really not my intention, but using the s2w tactic is absolutely no less creative than what many many players who are trying to be efficient and DPS gods do.  At least with s2w, you have to use the controller (PS4 player here) and have some coordination and approach, whereas some of the frames mentioned by the OP just sit in a corner and casually click a button.

I dont know about other consoles but the entire "being in the team" mention is worthless.  If you are on a random PUG, hardly anyone talks unless it's to compalin about something (that they could have prevented had they talked on mic for 5 seconds in the beginning), aND there is no interaction.  Just people racing to be first to a target, never caring if the others even make it there before poor Phorid dies, or running off in their own direction.   And at the end of it all, they are doing exactly what you criticized (doing the same thing over and over).  They are standing there spraying their Ignis, they are camping in a hallway spamming their 4th ability, etc. It's all the same, it's just some people run around with whips and some people spam 4 and enjoy knowing they wiped out the entire map.   The conflict comes up when that s2w guy kills the spawn the other guy needed to get HIS damage numbers up and look godly.   

Edited June 21, 2019 by (PS4)Glitschig

[(PSN)Glitschig]

On 2019-06-14 at 8:04 AM, Teridax68 said:

Here's the thing: spin2win by itself isn't that bad. It's fun to spin and murder a crowd of enemies you just happened to be passing through. The problem is when spin2win gets so dominant that it essentially becomes the only way to play melee at higher levels, which is currently the case with the exception of Redeemer Prime. When you start having to mash crouch with every strike in rapid succession, and so over hours of play, it starts to grate, and it's this repetition, coupled with some pretty bad balance problems, that makes the feature unpopular.

If you are not the one having to do the crouching....and aiming g....and attacking...then what do you care?  I mean, the s2w'ers probably appreciate your concern for them but at the end of the day, they are not going out of the way to say "I sure hate those pistol and rifle people.  It's a shame they have to aim and pull their trigger for hours on end.". Let people play and have fun.  If they tire of it, they will stop.  

[Tarak]

It boils down to the fact that warframe is a power fantasy. And having the agility as one player to just spam 2 buttons in a circle around the map and keep it cleared of enemies leaves nothing for anyone else to do. That's why saryn was updated so that you had to keep moving around and killing things to keep her ability going. Her ability also allows other players to interact thorough killing to keep it spreading, and can burn itself out.

[(PSN)Glitschig]

On 2019-06-14 at 1:36 PM, George_PPS said:

All players have the freedom to choose not to use certain attack styles. It is better to suggest adding more weapons like Redeemer Prime because nerfing is not the answer. Beside this, there are also other Warframes or weapons being too powerful in certain situations. Do you prefer to nerf them all because they are too powerful? There are always going to be certain things that are more powerful than others. It’s in all games. Warframe is the game with the most powerful characters, weapons, and attack styles. It’s the best about Warframe. 

That is it exactly.  People are so looking at the weather thing here.  We shouldn't want to Nerf others who are having fun and being productive with their builds.  Where does it stop?  "They needed my fun with melee...well, I hate nuke frames and that damned Saryn that kills 90% of the spawns in ESO....Nerf them too.". 

Does really want a game where we all end up reduced to the equivalent of tossing paper was at each other?  Of course not.

What we SHOULD be focused on is asking and demanding new content designed to challenge the and stress these awesome designs we have come up with in all these frames. Make it to where we are begging for help from a speed volt or Saryn or we appreciate that bail out moment when. The guy with the atterax wipes the room and staves off being over run by lvl 300 corrupted.  Make is appreciated the power of others and the teamwork it inspires instead of griping the equivalent that "we are all so overpowered that it makes me take notice that you are in my way.".