What would you do about CC frames?

[MrMrs]

I've honestly been sad about the state of cc frames because the more cc frames I get the more I love them and wish that I could use some of them a lot more frequently like Nyx who I really enjoyed leveling. Unfortunately, due to the damage meta cc frames have been pushed to become more irrelevant than me in 6th grade. I've honestly wondered what people wanted to do about the state of cc and frames based off that in general since I don't really see a lot of people talking about it so I just wanted to pose this thread. What would you do about cc frames to make them more relevant and useful?

[MrMrs]

I've honestly been sad about the state of cc frames because the more cc frames I get the more I love them and wish that I could use some of them a lot more frequently like Nyx who I really enjoyed leveling. Unfortunately, due to the damage meta cc frames have been pushed to become more irrelevant than me in 6th grade. I've honestly wondered what people wanted to do about the state of cc and frames based off that in general since I don't really see a lot of people talking about it so I just wanted to pose this thread. What would you do about cc frames to make them more relevant and useful?

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Scaling rewards on Rotation C in endless missions.

[844448]

21 minutes ago, MrMrs said:

I've honestly been sad about the state of cc frames because the more cc frames I get the more I love them and wish that I could use some of them a lot more frequently like Nyx who I really enjoyed leveling. Unfortunately, due to the damage meta cc frames have been pushed to become more irrelevant than me in 6th grade. I've honestly wondered what people wanted to do about the state of cc and frames based off that in general since I don't really see a lot of people talking about it so I just wanted to pose this thread. What would you do about cc frames to make them more relevant and useful?

Nerf damage frames 

*evil laugh

[K4RN4]

Bring back the old void.

[RX-3DR]

@844448 has it right. The best way to tackle the problem with CC being weak now, is to stop prevent damage abilities from sweeping the map every 5 seconds. The question is, what is the preferable way to achieve it and will the community not whine about it?

Buffing up CC will not create a better scenario because it's still not going to kill enemies. If you doubled the range and duration of Nyx's Chaos which are the only things you can really do with CC, people will still ignore it because the extra stats is not valuable and it's still not killing enemies automatically for you unlike pressing 4 with something else. CC used to have a significant benefit of sustainability in an age where damage abilities had harder ceilings with mods and when energy was sparse. You can return that advantage of sustainability and consistency by reducing the damage that damage abilities do, or making abilities less spammable at their current effectiveness.

You can reduce damage through a number of ways, hard nerfs on the stats is the most obvious way but will also affect people who don't play in that manner, making the ability borderline pointless without 200% or more power strength. You can put in enemies that take reduced ability damage, essentially Nullifier 0.5 but you would just create a Corpus only situation or an Arbitration drone situation where it lacks coverage or where people are mad that it affects their specific playstyle. The last alternative is to stop people from stacking multiple mods of the same stat and having some restrictions on modding. If you prevent people from hitting 200% Power Strength with 200% Range, CC will make a very big come back because 200% Power Strength with 100% Range will not be able to cover large rooms unlike CC which can be built comfortably for 200% Range and 100% Duration to lockdown enemies for 10 seconds or so.

The other way, is to adjust the rate energy gain and cost. Most hard CC abilities are 2nd or 3rd slot abilities costing 50 or 75. Meanwhile, most damage abilities that can nuke a room are 4th abilities. If you were to adjust the energy drops and costs so that you actually have to save up to use something like Miasma as opposed to just running around for 5 seconds while picking up 3 Energy orbs off the floor of the previous pile of enemies, you would bring back the cost efficiency of CC abilities. If you were to only reduce the cost of CC, it wouldn't make a difference because damage abilities are too spammable right now and will almost always just feed themselves into a loop together with all over energy recovery options. You would have to tackle the energy economy as a whole.

Edited July 26, 2019 by RX-3DR

[Guest]

Actually, all that was uttered is Platitudes.

DE murdered CC with their own game design of "everything that means something and needs to be CCed is immune to CC". Changing damage doesn't change anything. Limiting mods doesn't change anything. Pressing a button for zero effect is why CC died. There are tonnes of enemies that simply switch off CC. At least when you use damage, you do ... something.

Nerfing damage will not make CC relevant when it fails to do anything that really matters in the first place.

 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

2 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Actually, all that was uttered is Platitudes.

DE murdered CC with their own game design of "everything that means something and needs to be CCed is immune to CC". Changing damage doesn't change anything. Limiting mods doesn't change anything. Pressing a button for zero effect is why CC died. There are tonnes of enemies that simply switch off CC. At least when you use damage, you do ... something.

Nerfing damage will not make CC relevant when it fails to do anything that really matters in the first place.

 

This. Nullies, arbitration drones, etc, combined with bosses and endgame fights (yes its close enough to be the endgame) like profit taker, ediolons and eso all require damage and not cc

[.Dracula.]

22 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

@844448 has it right. The best way to tackle the problem with CC being weak now, is to stop prevent damage abilities from sweeping the map every 5 seconds. The question is, what is the preferable way to achieve it and will the community not whine about it?

Buffing up CC will not create a better scenario because it's still not going to kill enemies. If you doubled the range and duration of Nyx's Chaos which are the only things you can really do with CC, people will still ignore it because the extra stats is not valuable and it's still not killing enemies automatically for you unlike pressing 4 with something else. CC used to have a significant benefit of sustainability in an age where damage abilities had harder ceilings with mods and when energy was sparse. You can return that advantage of sustainability and consistency by reducing the damage that damage abilities do, or making abilities less spammable at their current effectiveness.

You can reduce damage through a number of ways, hard nerfs on the stats is the most obvious way but will also affect people who don't play in that manner, making the ability borderline pointless without 200% or more power strength. You can put in enemies that take reduced ability damage, essentially Nullifier 0.5 but you would just create a Corpus only situation or an Arbitration drone situation where it lacks coverage or where people are mad that it affects their specific playstyle. The last alternative is to stop people from stacking multiple mods of the same stat and having some restrictions on modding. If you prevent people from hitting 200% Power Strength with 200% Range, CC will make a very big come back because 200% Power Strength with 100% Range will not be able to cover large rooms unlike CC which can be built comfortably for 200% Range and 100% Duration to lockdown enemies for 10 seconds or so.

The other way, is to adjust the rate energy gain and cost. Most hard CC abilities are 2nd or 3rd slot abilities costing 50 or 75. Meanwhile, most damage abilities that can nuke a room are 4th abilities. If you were to adjust the energy drops and costs so that you actually have to save up to use something like Miasma as opposed to just running around for 5 seconds while picking up 3 Energy orbs off the floor of the previous pile of enemies, you would bring back the cost efficiency of CC abilities. If you were to only reduce the cost of CC, it wouldn't make a difference because damage abilities are too spammable right now and will almost always just feed themselves into a loop together with all over energy recovery options. You would have to tackle the energy economy as a whole.

Boy am I glad you're not a dev.

[Teljaxx]

Basically, the way CC vs. DPS should work is this: CC should instantly incapacitate enemies, but only temporarily. DPS should permanently incapacitate them, but it should take longer to do so. This way, you need CC to keep the enemies from killing you while the DPS kills them.

The main problem right now is that there are far too many abilities that can both instantly and permanently remove enemy threats. Why would you put a group of enemies to sleep for a few seconds when you can simply kill them instantly and never worry about them again?

Back in the earlier days of Warframe, when Vauban was the CC king and everyone loved having him in their squad, this was more how it worked. Overall player damage output and durability was so much lower that most enemies could very easily kill you faster than you could kill them, and without CC you were screwed. But now, thanks to all the power creep that has been added over time, its nearly impossible to find enemies that don't die instantly to even your weakest attacks. Along side that, with how many new enemies have resistance or straight up immunity to CC powers, is it really any wonder why no one ever uses CC specific frames? I mean, even the smallest melee slam attacks offer more effective CC through ragdolls than most CC focused frames at this point.

 

So, what would I do about CC? Basically, a massive nerf to player DPS across the board, along with a removal of most CC resistances on enemies. Infinite enemy scaling should also be removed, and DE should pick a specific maximum level to balance everything around. You can't have an endgame if there is no end, after all. This should also have the added benefit of making the game more challenging and engaging by requiring more strategic uses of powers than just the "hit 4 to blow up the universe" meta we have now.

Honestly, I don't expect this to ever happen because it would require a massive overhaul of most of the game. And it would most likely end up driving off a huge number of players, which could potentially kill the game. But if CC is to ever be as useful as it used to be, more limits need to be introduced elsewhere.

[Cubewano]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

This. Nullies, arbitration drones, etc, combined with bosses and endgame fights (yes its close enough to be the endgame) like profit taker, ediolons and eso all require damage and not cc

So what exactly is your suggestion here, remove any CC limiters from the game and let it run wild? How do you think that would impact the combat experience and balance of certain content and enemy designs? 

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, Teljaxx said:

Basically, the way CC vs. DPS should work is this: CC should instantly incapacitate enemies, but only temporarily. DPS should permanently incapacitate them, but it should take longer to do so. This way, you need CC to keep the enemies from killing you while the DPS kills them.

The main problem right now is that there are far too many abilities that can both instantly and permanently remove enemy threats. Why would you put a group of enemies to sleep for a few seconds when you can simply kill them instantly and never worry about them again?

Back in the earlier days of Warframe, when Vauban was the CC king and everyone loved having him in their squad, this was more how it worked. Overall player damage output and durability was so much lower that most enemies could very easily kill you faster than you could kill them, and without CC you were screwed. But now, thanks to all the power creep that has been added over time, its nearly impossible to find enemies that don't die instantly to even your weakest attacks. Along side that, with how many new enemies have resistance or straight up immunity to CC powers, is it really any wonder why no one ever uses CC specific frames? I mean, even the smallest melee slam attacks offer more effective CC through ragdolls than most CC focused frames at this point.

 

So, what would I do about CC? Basically, a massive nerf to player DPS across the board, along with a removal of most CC resistances on enemies. Infinite enemy scaling should also be removed, and DE should pick a specific maximum level to balance everything around. You can't have an endgame if there is no end, after all. This should also have the added benefit of making the game more challenging and engaging by requiring more strategic uses of powers than just the "hit 4 to blow up the universe" meta we have now.

Honestly, I don't expect this to ever happen because it would require a massive overhaul of most of the game. And it would most likely end up driving off a huge number of players, which could potentially kill the game. But if CC is to ever be as useful as it used to be, more limits need to be introduced elsewhere.

I agree with most of your start, but you lose me at the removal of scaling. Yes enemy threat is virtually nonexistent at the moment because of power creep, and due to that there is virtually no need to use CC, just flat out removing an enemy is just as effective as CC'ing them and at no cost or risk that would be better aided by disabling the enemy first. That needs to be addressed, and until it is CC is never likely to see much value again, at least in general play. Toning down our damage (especially our aoe damage), alongside our durability, would go leaps and bounds in making for a more balanced state where enemies are threatening enough to worth disabling in the first place just to aid with killing them. But in regards to cutting off endless mission scaling, that I'm not sure is necessary, yes we should have an established level range for players to operate at in general play, where gameplay is meant to be balanced and manageable, but that doesn't mean content outside that range should cease to exist for people who want to go outside that rift, it just needs to be as optional as it presently is. Just because levels past x exist doesn't mean you need to balance around them, they can just be extra levels, they can be the no mans zone where people who want to be reckless and truly tested can go to push their capabilities to the breaking point and throw reasonable difficulty to the wind for fun, that's not a bad thing, and there's no reason to remove more options just for the sake of it. We can have both, and I'd prefer it that way at the least. 

[.Dracula.]

32 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Basically, the way CC vs. DPS should work is this: CC should instantly incapacitate enemies, but only temporarily. DPS should permanently incapacitate them, but it should take longer to do so. This way, you need CC to keep the enemies from killing you while the DPS kills them.

The main problem right now is that there are far too many abilities that can both instantly and permanently remove enemy threats. Why would you put a group of enemies to sleep for a few seconds when you can simply kill them instantly and never worry about them again?

Back in the earlier days of Warframe, when Vauban was the CC king and everyone loved having him in their squad, this was more how it worked. Overall player damage output and durability was so much lower that most enemies could very easily kill you faster than you could kill them, and without CC you were screwed. But now, thanks to all the power creep that has been added over time, its nearly impossible to find enemies that don't die instantly to even your weakest attacks. Along side that, with how many new enemies have resistance or straight up immunity to CC powers, is it really any wonder why no one ever uses CC specific frames? I mean, even the smallest melee slam attacks offer more effective CC through ragdolls than most CC focused frames at this point.

 

So, what would I do about CC? Basically, a massive nerf to player DPS across the board, along with a removal of most CC resistances on enemies. Infinite enemy scaling should also be removed, and DE should pick a specific maximum level to balance everything around. You can't have an endgame if there is no end, after all. This should also have the added benefit of making the game more challenging and engaging by requiring more strategic uses of powers than just the "hit 4 to blow up the universe" meta we have now.

Honestly, I don't expect this to ever happen because it would require a massive overhaul of most of the game. And it would most likely end up driving off a huge number of players, which could potentially kill the game. But if CC is to ever be as useful as it used to be, more limits need to be introduced elsewhere.

in 'the early days' you camped in a pipe. I'd say power creep did us a favor.

[kikasnoob]

2 hours ago, MrMrs said:

I've honestly been sad about the state of cc frames because the more cc frames I get the more I love them and wish that I could use some of them a lot more frequently like Nyx who I really enjoyed leveling. Unfortunately, due to the damage meta cc frames have been pushed to become more irrelevant than me in 6th grade. I've honestly wondered what people wanted to do about the state of cc and frames based off that in general since I don't really see a lot of people talking about it so I just wanted to pose this thread. What would you do about cc frames to make them more relevant and useful?

CC frames a quite well designed in my opinion and if my memory serves correctly, Vauban holds an ODD record from 3 plus years ago. (He literally broke ODD)

Also in a game where the average War framer won’t stay in a single mission any longer than 20 minutes ( apparently but more like ten minutes in my experience) fighting enemy weak enough to kill with a wet sp,,,,,,, floof, it’s no wonder cc frames seem irrelevant.

Having said that, I have seen a few Limbos, Nyx and Nova’s lately, oh and stomp rhinos but the content were they excel is few and far between and/or buried under about 3-4 hours worth of time to get to it.

Edited July 26, 2019 by kikasnoob

[BDMblue]

Well if you want CC viable make a new game + put the levels in it between 100-400.

damage is going to be king until we have a reason to go beyond damage frames.

[Cubewano]

28 minutes ago, .Dracula. said:

in 'the early days' you camped in a pipe. I'd say power creep did us a favor.

Power creep didn't stop that pattern, the void rework did, it was a result of repetitive endurance runs which isn't a standard practice in the game anymore. If it returned we'd likely do the same, but with even less involvement since a single frame can more or less do what a full group could do in the past. All power creep did was render CC even more irrelevant after the difficulty barrier for content was lowered overall, all the while making the co-operative experience weaker by introducing tools far too powerful to allow for remotely equalized play between all players -a single player can more or less invalidate a mission for a whole squad to great extremes- none of which sounds like much of a favor. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Cubewano

[0_The_F00l]

What we need is a "rewarding" game mode where doing damage would reduce your effectiveness. 

Eg:

infested incubation :

An anti-virus has been deployed in the environment, we need to infect as many enemies as possible with it, after a fixed amount of time being infected they will drop a resource that will increase your progression. 

the longer an enemy stays alive the more points you get (resource gets better the longer enemy is infected) .

The longer they stay infected their damage ramps up as well.

They are still enemies and they want to kill you but if you kill them then you will lose out on the resources they would have dropped.

 

[0_The_F00l]

I believe this is a duplicate post? Will ask mods to delete or merge it. 

[.Dracula.]

2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Power creep didn't stop that pattern, the void rework did, it was a result of repetitive endurance runs which isn't a standard practice in the game anymore. If it returned we'd likely do the same, but with even less involvement since a single frame can more or less do what a full group could do in the past. All power creep did was render CC even more irrelevant after the difficulty barrier for content was lowered overall, all the while making the co-operative experience weaker by introducing tools far too powerful to allow for remotely equalized play between all players -a single player can more or less invalidate a mission for a whole squad to great extremes- none of which sounds like much of a favor. 

You can reminisce about camping in a pipe with Vauban all you want, but DE is never going to nerf damage, sorry. With power creep came more active and flowing ability kits instead of being forced to mod for one ability or the other like the game use to be. For the record, sitting in a pipe behind a vortex while Trinity gives you energy is probably just squeezing by the definition of 'teamwork'. I also never ever run into a mission where a single player is doing literally everything. Is this just a pseudo "nerf Saryn" thread I never see her anywhere outside of ESO. All that needs to happen is more content that benefits more from locking down enemies instead of killing them, not an all around damage nerf, which is hard to do for a looter shooter hoard game.

Sorry I forgot about the ever so engaging mesa sits on a box and presses 4 while mag pulls in energy orbs.

Edited July 26, 2019 by .Dracula.

[Grekkatarq]

In the beginning the CC was something and damage frames was weak because their potential stopped scaling. Now the roles changed and now CC is what weaker. Basically both should be an equal option but the balancing is a never ending task for any developer so they probably need to do a mass revisit. Nerfing damage could not help because still the CC abilities won't be super useful if there are enemies what are immune to certain CC abilities. The problem is mostly the game core idea itself because the devs want us to be godlike mass murderers but in other hand they want provide challenge. Challenge can only be achieved if they can provide a difficulity what the players needs. The most certainly thing what can provide this thing is the pvp. The pvp is not beloved here because the game peer to peer and our ability spamming options are wide and noone like when someone using your abilities against you. The other option what they can do is adding more sponge enemies which simply has too many hp so cannot be killed easily or using ability immunity or any kind of status resistance. The star chart is doable with the basic modding route so the 4 base ability boost, flow, vita-redi plus 1 other mod and 1 exilus and a choosen aura. The difficulity is only the one shot enemies on higher level but the star chart can be dangerous if you are not using the recent meta mods or augments. 

The endless mission modes are in other hand has not strict scaling rules and the scaling in one point can goes rapidly. This game mode not meant to be balanced in your standards because this created to challenge your ability to survive as long as you can. 

If they add a better AI the game would be more focused on single target challenges but the the horde shooter tag become useless. They hardly can do what the playerbase needs and everything what they tried mostly is pvp oriented becuse they know the pvp is the only real option when you wish to compare player vs player skills in a mode. Which is not that bad I certainly would like some capture the flag mode or siege like in the mount and blade series but the question is how they could balance our damage output?

Will they just remove the abilities or limit the damage of weapons can do? Or they just making a matchmaker revisit to scale the difficulity so probably you could meet with similar skilled players.

Anyway the CC frames still can shine because their abilities always will work on enemies on higher levels regardless it is 100 or 1000. The damage still fall fast on a point where the CC frames can shine well and be useful for the team. Most of these frames needs some self sufficiency which can be some damage, status remover, healing ability or energy replenishment so they can continue CC-ing. Frames like Loki is still useful and he is not changed too much because his design was smart and he can disarm the mobs with a press of button. He can go invisible and that gives him some extra dmaage which is not scaled but on starchart works. In higher levels also his abilities won't work 100% but that not meant to be in the first place. I am not arguing with the idea these and other damage dealer frames needs some tweaks but the starchart is the core of the game and that is the level for balance things. Endless missions just means extra things which can be done for better rewards which really needs fix there is the rewards itself. The scaling in other hand could be revisited but that itself won't help a lot becuse in the end they will instead nerf our ability to deal with the mobs than reworking a full system which mean the core of the game and not meant to be a darksoul.

In the developers point of view it is a hard task to stay attractive for new players and advanced players and please your veterans which probably will burn out sooner or later depending on what time they spent on the game. If the coop component become a crucial part of the game so we really depend on each other to achieve success in the missions then the gameplay will be slower and most players would leave immediately. Also if you get lower level or skilled players in your team you need to cater them and if the mobs harder to kill and have better tactical options then most of the skilled players will only play with their skill levels and left behind the newest players whom still don't understand how to play for example a survival.

A better tutorial needs, also some content levelling which is basically started with the addition of junctions and higher mastery reqs for weapons. This way they could make harder enemies which not instant kill you but give a much better option to beign challenged.

 

Sry for my long post, that is just my idea how I see it and I think the CC frames are not tragically bad at the moment.

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

I would remove some CC aspects of the frames and add more or lean towards dps skills for them.

Edited July 26, 2019 by (XB1)Dex Xean

[Loza03]

Same thing as with most of the stuff in the game.

Better balance. And I mean actual better balance, not just nerfing a few things and saying 'that's fine'. I mean getting rid of all the win buttons, either by replacing them Wukong rework style or by rebalancing them with more limits in mind similar to how Ivara and Wisp's invisibilities work compared to Loki's or Octavia's. We've got BFG's with Infinite Ammo, the ability to turn off AI forever, Immortality. That just removes gameplay overall. DPS Warframes just happen to be the most direct way of doing it right now.

[Guest]

I will repeat - the reason why CC died is because anything which actually require to be CCed (things like Demolyst, Wolf of Saturn Six, Eidolon, Boss, Ancient Disruptor etc) are flat out immune to CC, while trash mobs which would be cleared by damage anyway, even from a gun, can be CCed but don't actually have to be CCed. Crowd Control is only useful if it can take something you cannot kill out of the fight so you can buy time to deal with it, but all these things where time needs to be bought, they are immune to CC anyway.

This is why, nerfing damage does not make CC relevant. It makes damage frames as useless and as irrelevant as CC frames, and makes the only viable content a strong gun with high damage. That solves nothing. A CC frame right now is like a powerlifter being asked to run in 100 meters sprint, because, say there is a ban on power lifting in the olympics. You don't cut off the legs of the actual runners to make the powerlifter relevant, you give him back the sport he excels at.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Guest

[khazlol]

Well they have talked about reworking damage for years. but it was delayed and then forgotten

[Mover-NeRo]

6 hours ago, K4RN4 said:

Bring back the old void.

Old void was trash with only one def map over and over ... braindead Mirage or Ivara CC.