Can something be done about Saryn?

[Extremyoshi]

One Tweak that comes to my mind for Miasma would be that it spreads like say... Molekular Prime. I think visually could it look awesome. It does decrease the killing speed a little bit of course. I wouldn't mind that.

I can't agree on the LoS treatment though. That would - indeed - break Saryns kit heavily.

[AkyFenrir]

Il y a 12 heures, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

Looking through an article linked earlier, and I found something interesting. I'm not on my computer, so formatting isn't as I would prefer.

"A phrase we used on the Civilization development team to describe this phenomenon is that “water finds a crack” – meaning that any hole a player can possibly find in the game’s design will be inevitably abused over and over. The greatest danger is that once a player discovers such an exploit, she will never be able to play the game again without using it"

I can't understand why anyone would want to play a game.... But not play it. 

"One of the dangers of players looking to optimize a game is that a single dominant strategy will emerge that drowns out all others."

Pretty self-explanitory there. 

But here's the kicker-

"Does the exploit drown out all other play styles, or is it a fun, alternative way to play?"

Saryn drowns out the playstyles of everyone in her squad and effectively chokes out everyone else's gameplay. 

The game is a team game. 

Teams are not about one person.

She should have to work with her team instead of over them. 

You're a genius ! Let's talk about what Civilization developers team think about game developping. Let's forget immediately it's a strategy game, you can't let yourself be bothered by the fact strategy and tps grinding games are different. It would ruin your argument from the very beggining if you pointed that out immediately right ?

Taking a random stuff those dev said about "water finding a crack" makes complete sense in a strategy game! if everyone play the same strategy the entire game is completely useless ! You need multiple strategies and counter for that genre of game! 

Second phrase from strategy game developper. Yes obviously people would abuse the best strategy available to win a STRATEGY game. Wait, i've forgotten something here. 

hmmm, Oh right there's pvp in this game... So it's a pvp argument. Let's get it out of context again, right ?

You do realize Civilization is a free for all kind of pvp ? No you don't. 

Can't wait to get you to take out of context every other game dev talk in any genre except the one we're playing on warframe. This is going to be soooo gold.

Il y a 3 heures, uAir a dit :

So let's dial down the mission types one by one.

Done that, Checke Pizzarugi answer last page. Well Saryn can be played in those mission, she can use her skills there so she's op ! Because being able to pick a warframe makes it the best in every gamemode for him ... 

It's impossible to have a good conversation with them. They don't know the game. They think they do but they don't. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by AkyFenrir

[Xepthrichros]

14 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

t's not just one warframe that needs nerfs. Saryn, Mesa, Volt, and Equinox can all nuke and they all equally need to be toned down. My current main Nidus is pre-nerf Valkyr levels of unstoppable, but he also needs to get toned down, same with Inaros. Chroma trivializes "Grand Bosses" like eidolons and also needs to get toned down. There are so many other frames that need to be looked at.

There you go. Proven we didn't straw man anything.. Yes yes, nerf all the things till we get 40 different Rhinos with different flavors. Good design recommendations.

That is why people are defending Saryn. Because it is to prevent an avalanche from occurring. Supposing the devs nerf Saryn. Lets say it was not a huge nerf. She becomes Volt-level strong. But look, there already exists calls for nerfs on Volt. So guess what? Time to nerf again, and eventually she, and maybe Volt too, become pushed to Mesa level (some might debate that Mesa is better than Volt, but this is not the point). But wait, that's not enough. The nerf callers continue. Now Mesa, Volt and Saryn continue getting nerfed to Equinox level. Now again the levels here can be debated on which is above the other but the point is you guys keep asking for nerfs until what? All of them are tanks with scaling damage like Nidus. But you also are against Nidus and Inaros and Chroma. Nerf those too. So now everything becomes..... .... Excalibur. 

Good job. Well played. Excalibur clones.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[selig_fay]

Warframe is better compared to borderlands. In the second part there is a krig which is a nucker. He is the best example of how saryn should work. Yes, he can blow up part of the map in seconds, but he can't blow up the whole map. 

[Veridian]

3 hours ago, uAir said:

So let's dial down the mission types one by one.
Arena- Any frame but I mostly see Nidus/Nekros because people are farming endo.
Assassination- Saryn sucks at this compared to any number of other frames or even any weapon that can deal damage.
Assault- Depending on the level and enemy type, Saryn's casting and dot makes her undesirable here and indeed, other frames can match or outshine her here.
Capture- No.
Defection- While her range would help keep the defectors safe here I rarely ever see her here, I wonder why? Maybe it's because she's not optimal, huh.
Defense (and by default, maybe Thermia?)- Again, nope. I don't see her used often in these missions either and there are better picks for keeping the defense objective safe. Maybe baddies who don't know what Gara is still take Saryn to Hydron and try to spam 4 but they're doing it wrong when Gara does it way better and Banshee does it way better.
Disruption- Nah, Saryn sucks here.
Excavation- Again, Saryn sucks here.
Exterminate- Oh, the mission type where you'd expect to see Saryn all of the time. I rarely ever see her.
Free roam/Bounty- Can't remember the last time I saw a Saryn out on the plains or vallis.
Hijack- Trinity or Hildryn?
Infested Salvage- Whoa, the one game mode where Ember is one of the top picks and her nerfs just made her better for this. 😄
Interception- Limbo, Octavia, not Saryn.
Junction- lol?
Mobile Defense- Limbo, Octavia, not Saryn.
Pursuit- Itzal.
Rescue- Not Saryn, maybe check Volt or Wisp or whatever fast frame we have instead?
Rush- Itzal.
Sabotage- Not Saryn, maybe check Rescue?
Sanctuary Onslaught- HOLY FREAKING HELL. One game mode where Saryn is top pick. Even then I don't see her significantly more than other frames on here. And unless it's Elite I tend to not see her at all. If you're solo, then Saryn. If you're SO with a friend then definitely not Saryn and if you're ESO then maybe Saryn.
Spy- Not Saryn.
Survival- Again, not Saryn. Her wide range kills enemies where the drops don't spawn making her not a top pick for players.

While you can complete ANY of these mission types with ANY frame there is only one mode where Saryn is a top pick and only
So the argument that, "omg, Saryn is too good and makes the game unplayable" literally applies to one game mode. And it's not that Saryn makes it unplayable, it's that Saryn is the only one that can basically 100% solo 8 waves without worry.

Ironically enough, there is a frame that pops out the most in all those game modes and I have the tingly feeling that most of the people complaining on the topic didn't bother with anything further than that one.

I'd even go as far as to disagree that she's top pick in ESO, everyone being complete leeches and all, 70% are Rhino, Inaros, Loki or Limbo, 20% are Trinity and then MAYBE the last 10% something of the rank of Saryn/Volt/Equinox.

Outside of ESO, anyone who can't outperform Saryn has himself to blame. Yesteday I encountered a total of 5 Saryns, 2 in ESO, 3 outside. I outdamaged them all, with Volt in ESO and with Wukong outside. She also requires all 3 abilities to maintain her damage output, unlike the actual braindead frames, so to anyone complaining about her, I'm going to be blunt - you can't play.

Another example of incompetence:
"Rhino is popping drop ships out of the sky and invalidating gameplay in bounties, while standing on the same spot"
Now should we:
A) Nerf IS and Roar
B) Enjoy being carried
C) Experiment with various builds to achieve similar results

[selig_fay]

2 минуты назад, Ver1dian сказал:

"Rhino is popping drop ships out of the sky and invalidating gameplay in bounties, while standing on the same spot"

When Rhino starts shooting down spaceships that drop capsules or teleport mobs to you, then we'll talk. And Yes, Saryn, too, can this, so as has simply divine augment on buff weapons. And she has a personal weapon buff. 

[Klokwerkaos]

13 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Looking through an article linked earlier, and I found something interesting. I'm not on my computer, so formatting isn't as I would prefer.

"A phrase we used on the Civilization development team to describe this phenomenon is that “water finds a crack” – meaning that any hole a player can possibly find in the game’s design will be inevitably abused over and over. The greatest danger is that once a player discovers such an exploit, she will never be able to play the game again without using it"

This is exactly what's happening with Saryn. Players found the "exploit" and now would have no idea how to continue on if that were to be taken away. (An exaggeration of course, but the point still stands.) They abuse Nukes, namely for this thread, Saryn, for the sake of efficiency. 

God forbid they actually have to play the game, instead of just push a couple buttons and win. Or, better yet, have someone else push two buttons and win for them. 

I can't understand why anyone would want to play a game.... But not play it. 

"One of the dangers of players looking to optimize a game is that a single dominant strategy will emerge that drowns out all others."

Pretty self-explanitory there. 

But here's the kicker-

"Does the exploit drown out all other play styles, or is it a fun, alternative way to play?"

Saryn drowns out the playstyles of everyone in her squad and effectively chokes out everyone else's gameplay. 

The game is a team game. 

Teams are not about one person.

She should have to work with her team instead of over them. 

your argument is a farce.  it's not an exploit, it"s intended design.  additionally, saryn is not the most powerful nuke in the game, that would be melee, and if you don't know what I'm talking about  it's because like so many others, you are talking out your butt without really knowing the game.

additionally, the entire purpose of eso is to kill everything as fast as you can.  simaris says it at the start of every mission.
doing what he tells you to do is part of the game design.

additionally other frames exist that nuke just as well exist and nobody complains about them.

your options are as follows:

1) complain on the forums forever until de buffs her again, just like the last 10 times.
2) put your own group together with people that have similar goals/playstyles.

3) play solo.

4) adapt and evolve
5) change your attitude and say "thanks for the carry and free loot"

6) uninstall

both options 2, 3,4 and 5 are very viable options.  additionally, other players have different ideas of fun, different goals and different expectations, however< when you join a pug, you get what you get.  either put on your big boy pants and deal, or you get frustrated and cry on the forums while other people rightly have no respect for you opinion.

i get it, you don't want to do any of that though, you want people to play the way you want to play, and you don't really care about anyone else's perspective, goals or ideals.  it's entitlement at it's best.

you want to know something though... you can grow out of it.

years ago i started playing nidus who would eventually become my main.  now at first i got really cranky that people would bust my balls and i couldn't get stacks.  i cried about it like a b* but then someone said to me "your stacks are you responsibility, if you can't manage it, that"s your problem".  and then it all made sense.  

now i have since adapted my playstyle so that i don't even use stacks because what is the point?  and i don't need them to go for 2 C rotations in arbs, because i did that thing, what's it called?  git gud scrub.  that... i stopped crying and i did that.

maybe other people can learn from that story.

volt can nuke just as well and my melee weapon nukes better than saryn (seriously i've had saryn's quite because they didn't do enough damage and got cranky in eso).  point being, your good time is your responsibility.  saryn is fine and has one spot where she trivializes game play, just like every other warframe (except trash tier ember who is the abused red headed step child of de).

guess what?  game is full of busted and broken mechanics everywhere and every frame has them, even vauban who can just practically afk solo interception missions.

i'm really tired of all the crying in this and several other dozen threads just like it.  people just want to cry and don't actually want to face the music and it's seriously embarrassing to watch.

[Veridian]

31 minutes ago, zhellon said:

When Rhino starts shooting down spaceships that drop capsules or teleport mobs to you, then we'll talk. And Yes, Saryn, too, can this, so as has simply divine augment on buff weapons. And she has a personal weapon buff. 

Are you comparing an ability which increases all damage by 50% on a frame built only for strength and duration, to an ability that buffs weapon damage by 30% on a frame, which needs range as some kind of a straw man to your argument?

How many Saryns have you seen in OV or the plains, honesty? I can tell you I don't even recall seeing one in the past month. If your attempt had any actual value outside of the realm of theory, that wouldn't be the case.

Can we instead talk about Mesa then? Cause I can nuke the drop ships and then just aim 4 at the capsules' general direction or does she also have some straw man reasoning for over performing in certain area, but being completely fine?

Surely the issue isn't that orange number in the stat screen that causes people's Epeen to take a hit. /s

I will repeat myself, if outside of ESO Saryn kills everything for you, then perhaps you should try something other than Hydron every once in a while.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Ver1dian

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb zhellon:

Warframe is better compared to borderlands. In the second part there is a krig which is a nucker. He is the best example of how saryn should work. Yes, he can blow up part of the map in seconds, but he can't blow up the whole map. 

saryn can't blow up the whole map. that just work on a very very small map like sanctuary onslaughter...

or did you ever see a saryn blown a whole spy map up? or sabotage map. 

[selig_fay]

48 минут назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

saryn can't blow up the whole map. that just work on a very very small map like sanctuary onslaughter...

or did you ever see a saryn blown a whole spy map up? or sabotage map.

Let's compare this to this. Closed area, waves of enemies, all as on the defensive. I want you to understand, I respect your right to blow up enemies at great distances. But I don't respect the right to do it in semi-AFK mode.

Спойлер

 

 

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

Let's compare this to this. Closed area, waves of enemies, all as on the defensive. I want you to understand, I respect your right to blow up enemies at great distances. But I don't respect the right to do it in semi-AFK mode.

  Masquer le contenu

 

 

There's no AOE at all in this video. Grenades with 3 meters radius? You mean like Ember fireball? That's what you want ? Borderlands 3 will release on september 12. Not much to wait to get that juicy borderlands gameplay you prefer! (On epic with local saves but hey xD).

When we say "You want a different game, it's out there" This is litterally 100% true for you. 

 

 

[selig_fay]

6 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

Grenades with 3 meters radius?

These grenades have no radius. Works of skill that all excess damage spreads to nearby enemies, causing a chain reaction.

Спойлер

https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Bloodsplosion

And Yes, I already bought 3 part)

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by zhellon

[AkyFenrir]

à l’instant, zhellon a dit :

These grenades have no radius. Works of skill that all excess damage spreads to nearby enemies, causing a chain reaction.

That's not what's shown on that video.

When this Krieg throw a grenade to a distant ennemy it's not aftecting the one on his left. So yeah there's a radius, it's ridiculously little. 

IF you get what you want, warframes power will turn useless and the melee meta would replace it, won't change a thing for your beginners with terrible loadouts anyway.

And i don't want Warframe to be a Space ninja borderlands game. There's borderlands game for that. Go play that! 

[selig_fay]

13 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

That's not what's shown on that video.

When this Krieg throw a grenade to a distant ennemy it's not aftecting the one on his left. So yeah there's a radius, it's ridiculously little.

IF you get what you want, warframes power will turn useless and the melee meta would replace it, won't change a thing for your beginners with terrible loadouts anyway.

And i don't want Warframe to be a Space ninja borderlands game. There's borderlands game for that. Go play that!

As it has long been so. Remove all items that restore energy. Make the mechanics of healthgate and shieldgate everything and you'll get borderlands, because you just won't have the energy to spam abilities. Well, maybe there are still differences in mobility, but pfft, hardly anybody uses it fully.

I'll play both games. But you probably don't realize how similar they are. In another moment you should understand that if warframe that kills by itself, if he almost never uses his weapons and equipment, if it gives a semi AFK farm is not correct. If it means nerf limbo, Ivara and Wukong spying - well, I'll take it. If you like to blow up everything - blow up, but more actively. Let it even be something other than killing an enemy explodes the nearest spores, inflicting the same damage and spreading the spores further - cool. But dealing damage on its own is a very lazy mechanic and it shouldn't exist.

Edited August 22, 2019 by zhellon

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 9 minutes, zhellon a dit :

As it has long been so. Remove all items that restore energy. Make the mechanics of healthgate and shieldgate everything and you'll get borderlands, because you just won't have the energy to spam abilities. Well, maybe there are still differences in mobility, but pfft, hardly anybody uses it fully.

I'll play both games. But you probably don't realize how similar they are. In another moment you should understand that if warframe that kills by itself, if he almost never uses his weapons and equipment, if it gives a semi AFK farm is not correct. If it means nerf limbo, Ivara and Wukong spying - well, I'll take it. If you like to blow up everything - blow up, but more actively. Let it even be something other than killing an enemy explodes the nearest spores, inflicting the same damage and spreading the spores further - cool. But dealing damage on its own is a very lazy mechanic and it shouldn't exist.

You play both games, you want same gameplay in both game. You want to deny every other warframe player their gameplay because you want warframe to be a borderlands clone (yet another pff)

Of course they're similar ! they're 3 person shooter grinding games ! Destroying every differences is not a good thing! 

Can't believe you're bringing spore again as an example for "inactive gameplay". Stop spraying your ignorance around! Can't you stop a second, just one, understand you don't know what you're talking about?

I've told you so many times. It's impossible to talk with someone who doesn't understand what he's talking about. 

Yet you don't understand how spores works, no matter how many times it's been explained to you. At some point you should stop and wait for borderlands. You'll have your fun there. I'll have my fun here. There's no reason for you to enjoy everything on your conditions.

 

[Cibyllae]

20 minutes ago, zhellon said:

But dealing damage on its own is a very lazy mechanic and it shouldn't exist.

You people need to leave this game and find a game you actually like. You're saying a frame that has existed since patch 7 shouldn't exist.  We are on patch 25, I'm not even sorry at this point, you just need to leave and stop turning Warframe into something that is not Warframe.

[Xepthrichros]

31 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Let's compare this to this. Closed area, waves of enemies, all as on the defensive. I want you to understand, I respect your right to blow up enemies at great distances. But I don't respect the right to do it in semi-AFK mode.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

And I want you to understand, that you should not nerf a character just because of one game mode. Different warframes do different things in different modes at varying levels of effectiveness. Saryn again won't be great at Orb Mothers and Eidolons and generally open world maps. Balance her to kill in an even smaller area and she becomes even more useless in open areas

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

If it means nerf limbo, Ivara and Wukong spying - well, I'll take it. 

EXACTLY The problem with you people. You won't stop with the nukers. When you are done, you go on to ask for nerfs on damage reduction, and look, here you are!  Whacking the stealth frames! Haven't even accomplished the first goal of killing Saryn and you are already moving on to attacking the stealth frames.

Go and play your borderlands. Thanks.

2 minutes ago, zhellon said:

But dealing damage on its own is a very lazy mechanic and it shouldn't exist. 

But farming the equipment to obtain the ability to do this damage, is NOT lazy. For non-prime, Saryn is found at the end of the star chart. No matter how fast you clear the star chart, the fact remains that you still invested at least... I'll low-ball and say around 50 hours into the game. It's not like you logged in on day one and you get small map nuker for free. Unless you bought her with plat or got her from some promotion. But even so, you still paid premium currency or real money to either DE or a DE-affiliated company to get an item. That money spent should be respected. Then you have un-modded no reactor Saryn. She can nuke, but her damage weakens off around  Hydron level. Then you mod her up and finally she achieves her famed level of clearing ESO and stuff. But all these requires modding and arcanes which all require time to get. It's not lazy. It is earned power. 

"But other warframes also require all that farming and mods and they don't have such power" is what some will argue. Well here is the point, not all of them actually require the same level of farm.. Some of them are available earlier in the star chart, on Mars or Venus, or Jupiter. They are not locked behind Kela de Thaym, who herself is locked behind Grineer Arena points. There's also the idea of functioning as advertised. Saryn has for a long time already existed as very similar to how she does now, even in her pre-rework days. Think of people who do not have her, and see her stats or hear about her in region chat about how she functions, to all them, it's like a product being advertised by word of mouth and if they liked what they hear, they will be working towards her. Sudden nerfs and changes will make such people salty over the loss.

 

But veterans often forget how much farm and time they put into getting all these gear, just get bored, and create silly suggestions to nerf all the things, as though that solves problems. No, that just pisses off people in the midst of farming said equipment or actually value their past effort to get the equipment. Imagine being a new player, you see someone else's Saryn either in one of your missions nuking stuff, or just read about her in the Market page and get interested: "Ooh that sounds promising and will help me grind faster, time to work towards it" You set forth on your journey, and on your 100th day of warframe, you are halfway through Sedna. DE suddenly decides to act on the whiners on the forums and just nerfs Saryn. Now imagine you again as new player "What the heck? I just almost reached there. Fml" 

But again, here we go. Veterans just making up bad ideas on how to "improve" the game. 

 

 

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 9 minutes, Xepthrichros a dit :

But again, here we go. Veterans just making up bad ideas on how to "improve" the game. 

Wouldn't say Veterans, i'm one and i'm not bringing this kind of arguments.

This guy love borderlands and want it's gameplay everywhere

He proved multiple time his ignorance about Saryn and the game on a global scale.

It's not a veteran problem, it's an ignorant who like another game gameplay and want to impose it on warframe problem.

Edited August 22, 2019 by AkyFenrir

[Xepthrichros]

10 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Wouldn't say Veterans, i'm one and i'm not bringing this kind of arguments.

This guy love borderlands and want it's gameplay everywhere

He proved multiple time his ignorance about Saryn and the game on a global scale.

It's not a veteran problem, it's an ignorant who like another game gameplay and want to impose it on warframe problem.

Ah, my bad. Noted.

[BLI7Z]

6 hours ago, zhellon said:

The percentage of DPS does not matter, because the numbers are broken. Is caused damage, not actual damage, as it should. If you're proud of injecting millions of damage into mobs that has 100 HP, then I have bad news. Quantity is more important.

By ouDPSing I also mean having a higher kill count. Sorry for not being specific enough.

[BLI7Z]

7 hours ago, zhellon said:

The percentage of DPS does not matter, because the numbers are broken. Is caused damage, not actual damage, as it should. If you're proud of injecting millions of damage into mobs that has 100 HP, then I have bad news. Quantity is more important.

And I have bad news for you. Real players love Saryn and nukers. Because they know how Warframe works and they've been playing Warframe for a long time. You go and play Borderlands or something else.

I love competitive shooters, but I go play CSGO for that. I also love MMORPGs, but I go play BDO. Wanting a game to have similar mechanics to a game that YOU like is plainly ignorant. Go play what you really like.

Nukers are overrated, I will say this over and over again. Kill counts of a nuker high in defense and ESO. Do you want to slowly do ESO with CC? Do you want to pick up one by one each enemy in defenses and kill them slowly? You don't understand what's Warframe about and how everything works if you think Saryn or any other nuker are overpowered. In any case, buff Ember please, she is useless. I can kill more than her in Lith Exterminates with only melee and snipers... she isn't even good for the anything she is good for. 

Stop comparing Warframe to Borderlands. Warframe is unique. Try to UNDERSTAND Warframe, and have at least 1000 hours of gameplay in your profile (whcih usually means nothing anyway).

EDIT. I see you have 1800hs.... wow, I thought you were a new player for what you say. Well, this shows that gametime and MR means nothing

Edited August 22, 2019 by BLI7Z

[selig_fay]

I have to give you an EXAMPLE of how it can be, how conservative players start to throw mud at me. I'm not asking you to DO AS IN BORDERLANDS. I gave an example of nucker from another game, which absolutely does not interfere with the game of other people and at the same time explodes everything that is around it. Instead of trying to understand and to begin to discuss, you throw your normal map, which I tired. I've been playing Warframe since the beta test and I know perfectly well what the game was like in the beginning (when Trinity + Ogris was op and the rest just prayed for energy orbs and energy regeneration aura) And I understand very well why we have come to a situation where some frames are too strong and others are too weak.

I'm tired of this discussion. You know what, I'm glad DE will do something about it. And I will be glad if Saryn gets the nerf, because you are not offering any compromises, no solution to this problem. I have the feeling that about Saryn care I, while you need just a cleanup tool from mobs in a radius of 50 meters.  I do not show up in this thread. There's nothing to talk about. Good luck.

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 37 minutes, zhellon a dit :

I have to give you an EXAMPLE of how it can be, how conservative players start to throw mud at me. I'm not asking you to DO AS IN BORDERLANDS. I gave an example of nucker from another game, which absolutely does not interfere with the game of other people and at the same time explodes everything that is around it. Instead of trying to understand and to begin to discuss, you throw your normal map, which I tired. I've been playing Warframe since the beta test and I know perfectly well what the game was like in the beginning (when Trinity + Ogris was op and the rest just prayed for energy orbs and energy regeneration aura) And I understand very well why we have come to a situation where some frames are too strong and others are too weak.

I'm tired of this discussion. You know what, I'm glad DE will do something about it. And I will be glad if Saryn gets the nerf, because you are not offering any compromises, no solution to this problem. I have the feeling that about Saryn care I, while you need just a cleanup tool from mobs in a radius of 50 meters.  I do not show up in this thread. There's nothing to talk about. Good luck.

Except, your example is not a nuker. I can show you footage of Wukong to explain how nukers are bad. Would be out of subject like you.

Point is you've nothing to talk about, because you have 0 arguments. Enjoy your borderlands Bye.

There's no guarantee at all, you're ignorance is so blatant it's not even funny anymore. Learn to argue for the future when you'll want things change on borderlands :)

[Aldain]

Wonder how the mods haven't closed this yet, now it is just people yelling "SHUT UP" at each other with more words.

But in order to stay on topic, I'll summarize my stance in a few lines:

DPS shouldn't overshadow other roles or trivialize content to the point where a series of macros could play the game the same way a player can.

Raw damage potential shouldn't force a designer to have to make content that denies everyone (not just the damage frames) use of offensive abilities through immunity to either damage or status effects.

Players shouldn't have to fight other players to contribute to the team in a co-op game regardless of the mode, nor should the game run on a "Carry or be carried" system.

The current energy economy is part of the problem enabling this debacle to the point it is currently at and infinite energy is a problem.

The current mission designs are outdated to the point where you don't even need to kill any enemies in at least half of them, which makes not just DPS frames useless but most other frames too.

For missions that you can't just bullet jump through DPS frames can blow up any threat effortlessly, and endless missions are dominated by these frames as well.

Weapons are also unbalanced in so many ways, but much like the DPS frames that is an issue with the damage SYSTEM not the items themselves (mostly).

I don't want another Ember nerf (I even want Ember buffed), I just want other frames to not look like current Ember by comparison to the top DPS frames regardless of role.

Lastly, some power creep is fine, exponential power creep however limits the game's growth by creating unnecessary bloat on both player and enemy power scales.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

21 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well, what we got as nothing to do with 3.0 as far as we know. Melee is already broken, Maiming strike is a reccurent complaint around here. I can't speculate about the future, we've no info to work with so far. 

To be honest, a complete rework of all the dps in the game would change things for sure. I'd be fine with that (well it would be difficult to get dps more broken at this point let's be honest). It's all about armor scalling right now. If DE can find a good solution or not, future will tell.

My point was, there's no point to nerf Saryn if it's the only thing done. There's so many replacements right now.

Yeah, that's kind of what I’ve been saying, but I don't think it'll ever happen. As I said before, this game has gotten to big to just put on hold while their team figures out how to make things work. It wasn't very obvious originally, but it's become very apparent that they didn't expect this game to succeed on the level it did, so what may have seemed like a small, fixable issue then, has grown into a massive problem. I can't really blame them for thinking that, really, since they shipped the game out with very little resources, and only scraps of an idea.

But it could be that I'm just being overly pessimistic about the future, and they'll find a way to fix this mess, eventually.

21 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

exact quote was "even as any "good". My farming team is Mesa/nekros/speedva/limbo (or trinity). I was answering to someone suggesting if there's one Saryn in a survival the rest of the team is useless... I'm trying to deal with that kind of stuff, at some point i might miss the mark and english isn't my mother language so yeah.

and most people don't leave the first site doesn't mean people can't leave that if they want to shoot, most survival 20 minutes are totally fine like that (not as efficient for sure, wouldn't be going in public to farm efficiently anyway)

Alright, I was typing that up in a bit of a hurry, so I apologise if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth.

What usually happens (for me) in a survival mission, is everyone runs to the first capsule, and then just stays there. There's always one who leaves to find statues or whatever, and I'll go on a kuria hunt. This stretches the enemies out, so the two who are still in the first area, eventually start following me and the other person. I can't just ask someone to stop following me, since it would incredibly rude, but I don't want to play around the nuker, so what am I supposed to do then? Leave? On some days, it can be difficult to pick up a group since my connection isn't the best.

21 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well, sure, can't really deny that part about convenience.

I've never denied it, i've said public game is a lottery, you get what you get, there are ways to avoid saryn. Somehow seems easier to come discuss 52 pages instead of doing just that. 

Nova part is interesting, considering you've total control about how this skill will affect ennemies speed. Whenever i encouter slowva, i'm trying to discuss with them how to control it. If they don't care and are just there to troll, well it's public game, i leave and join next group. Something anyone can do. Yet they prefer to stay and suffer for some reason ?

 

Mirage is on another scope. It's a graphic problem. Can be solved easily without affecting gameplay balance? Even possible to add one reduce special effects from other players like they allow us to mute octavia musics

Well, there's a problem with trying to discuss someone's behaviour over the internet. Your tone and intentions don't translate well, over written words, so even if you're trying to be helpful, the person you're talking could think you're being condescending, or that you're over-stepping public boundaries by telling them how to play. This happens to me, ever so often, people will interpret my tone as snide.

I don't think it would be a bad thing to allow us to disable visuals for some frames. I dis-like all the clutter Wisp and Nidus add to my warframes, and the green shimmer from Renewal.

21 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Yeah, massive rework, how it ends might get a different game, could be good or bad, it's a risky bet to take. 

Limits when they talk about range or affected generally comes from people who don't know nukers are the only overpowered things in the game. There will always be troll around with build to annoy people too. Should we nerf those ? Don't know.

Well CD is a very unique thing. let's say if it's 10 seconds like ESO it's kinda irrelevant, so you'll have to make it way longer minimum 30 Seconds. Than people would see maiming strike and other stuff, slighty less powerfull but still broken like you call it. 

Dev reaffirmed their will to keep warframe very accessible so, sorry i don't expect change on this very line.

Well, from my experiences, the limits also make you use the other abilities or weapons you have at your disposal. There are already some warframe with abilities that have a limited amount of targets they affect, like Nyx and Titania, and they aren't as bad as some say. I still thoroughly enjoy Nyx's kit, despite all the bad rep it gets.

I think most frames who have the potential to be troll builds have already been fixed, and I can't really think of a troll-frame who wouldn't been fixed to some extent by cool-downs or limits.

In the other games I've played that have cool-downs, 15-20 seconds is usually the perfect recharge time, for the stronger abilities, like Discharge or Maim's detonation. In this hypothetical situation, where all frames have cool-downs, I think Maiming strike and melee would've already been looked at and given restrictions like the abilities.

Yeah, their main source of income probably comes from casual players, so of course they need to keep it accessible to them, otherwise they'd be looking at some complaints. Like what happened with Arbitrations.

22 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well vaulted relics like valkyr are relatively old, since 25th september 2018. So yeah people who started 8 months ago can't have those... It's super easy to find groups for current relics. In fact i'm not even bothering to make premades for hieracon, most public groups are good there. Since you can leave whenever you want know you're not as trapped as you used to be.

Sadly i can't help you to solve people problems like you're experiencing. Only thing i can suggest is to try to contact him ? If you can't you either stay alone or find a new clan... I hope you'll get a good solution for you. (That's why i'm not really a huge fan of dojos. You can invest in there and lose access or control of it if you've a problem with leaderships. I'm focusing on my orbiter decoration, at least this one won't go away if things turn bad with my clan...)

It could just be the population differences between PS4 and PC. I have no trouble picking up groups for survival and defense, but if I'm trying to do an excavation mission or Disruption, I could end up sitting there for 30 minutes.

Their recent changes to the clan system helped a bit, when they made it possible to change owners if the original leader had left, so it's not as bad as it could be. I'm going to have contact my friend (the former second in command), and see if he can get in touch with the guy. I just want to finish up a throne room I was building.

21 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Sorry bud just cause you can think of a metaphor doesn't make the metaphor true. I have 42 mil xp on Saryn and have been playing this game since June of 2014. Please stop trying to make changes to things you dont understand. You even admitted that you believe shooting an enemy that is incapacitated is different from shooting an enemy that isn't there. Which means you never played during the cc meta. Which means you are new player, and I promise you that as a new player there are things you are not privy to which older players are by the mere fact that those things have never have existed during your duration of playing this game.

 

You are trying to resolve a meta problem with a bandaid, and I cannot figure out for the life of me why you think nerfing damage frames is going to work. You have no proof nerfing nukes is going to solve the problem you have with the game. And right now that problem is you can't have fun when X frame is in your party. Buddy there is always going to be a frame like that. And nerfing whatever fotm frame X happens to be isn't going to solve anything.

I don't think 2 years, and over 500 hours could be considered "new". And what would I not be privy to, regarding the history of the game? Everything that this game has gone through, is right out there on the internet. And it's history is so freely discussed here, it's hard to not know about things like paid revives, coptering, stamina bars, Ignus Dei, one room orbiters, orokin dojo's, Void_Glitch, and when Nyx was god-tier. I could even find footage from 2015 or even 2014 and figure out why the game changed, whether for better or worse. I know how bad things were, back when the only viable solution, was to camp in a pipe and spam CC abilities. You think I'd want that back? No, of course not, because that's as bad as camping in a small room and spamming nuke abilities. First hand experience in a videogame is not like first hand experience in real life. There are some moments in life, when you truly have to be there, in order to understand what happened. Games aren't like that. Their history is so richly detailed and preserved on the internet, through the hundreds of people who have experienced them.

I don't think I could've been any clearer about my position on this game, last time we talked. Maybe you should rewind and read my extremely, long-winded post on why we will never get a re-vamped damage system, and what I know nerfing frames would fix. It would fix nothing. Absolutely nothing.

It's obvious you and I will never reach an agreement on this subject, because our opinions, differ so drastically, despite being rooted in same issue: Why nerfing frames wont work. The best thing we could do for one another, would to simply move on and place each other on ignore. Because it's clear neither of us are going to budge on this subject.