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MrRixter

Can something be done about Saryn?

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

You can play anything after level 200. It is now considered a high level and Saryn damage there doesn't matter, you only cut the armor and kill with operator mines. We are talking about normal content. The normal content is in the range of 1-100 levels. Ember has a problem with it, but it was before. Remember when exactly there was a sortie and when it was nerfed Ember. Banshee same always crave the only for one button,.

ember hadn't a problem with it upon they nerfed several times her. if you don't know that, than you don't know what you are talking about.

high level is anything over 40 (or: everything after you reached sedna) and not 200. the majority of players will never reach a 200 level because thats a level you can't just play by joining. game design is mostly restricted to level 100 which is the top mission level unless you do endless mission with hours of playing. again - if you don't know that, you might have no idea what you are talking about.

as already pointed out, saryn is for enemies over 40, and yes - to strip their armor so the group can kill them easier. and whats the problem?

that misma kills enemies under 15? wuhu.. you can do that with a lot of frames with just pressing one button. because 15 is low level. a frame which is designed to play on lvl 60 should be able to kill such enemies. thats why you design a frame like this - to survive in harder levels. wouldn't it be kind of obscure if you get killed on lvl 15 like you get killed on lvl 60?

and no, you will not survive anything over 60 with every frame. third time you don't know what you are talking about - in just 3 lines.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

But we can't make fun gameplay if enemies die outside the walls.

Some people consider nuking enemies behind walls as fun too. Fun has many definitions and subjective. And the world doesn't cater to you. Especially in a game where such a mechanic already exists and people that enjoy said mechanic are using it. And you are the one asking these people to move aside and accept your demand for their enjoyed mechanic to be deleted or weakened till insignificance.

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

What's the point of a weapon if we have a warframe that kills everything within a 50-70 meter radius?

The weapon is to kill those pesky arbitration drones and nullifiers and eidolons and orb mothers. What do all these things have in common? Immunity to spores. Don't want to see Saryn so often? Want something to shoot even if Saryn is around? Go to those missions. Problem solved. Or play solo. Elementary.

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This only confirms my words that the new content can kill the nukers. You think this is good?

Better than ALL content being anti-nukers, which is what some people are asking for. If nukers are nerfed until they are useless everywhere, why even exist? You yourself acknowledge the nuking damage tapers off at high levels. And now what? You want to argue for it to be weaker at low levels too? Some have to nuke through walls because they are glass cannons. Just a sneeze at them from an enemy and they are dead, so they kill first before the enemy sees them and shoots them.

Anyway, not surprised if some of you really want to eliminate nukers entirely as a role anyway, and maybe even turn Saryn into female Rhino eventually. Or turn all nukers into tanks. I mean, just look outside this thread, and see other threads saying Ember and Banshee (two former decent nukers that have been nerfed) needing more tankiness. Yeah, take away the cannon out of glass cannons, and all that is left is glass. Then ask that glass to be reinforced. Oh look, we created Rhino reskins. 

What I am getting from the nerf crowd is basically we can't have variety of content. Can't have variety of frame roles. You all want nukers gone. Instead of the current state, where we have a mix of content: 1) some modes make nukers less efficient, thus you use other things - basically all the other frames besides your typical nuking frames, such as tanks, CC, healers, and boss killers like Chroma .2) easier content meant for farming and also satisfies power fantasies, where nukers can enjoy the power trip and kill hordes of enemies with a few button presses (and a LOT of modding which required a LOT of farming previously, it's not like this power was not earned, because it was very much earned after much endo spent).

No no no. Must make everything equally slow. Must totally delete one way of enjoying the game, and alienate people who like to nuke.

 

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

revenant is the best option for playing at a high level. I don't understand why you concluded that I think saryn is the best candidate

Because you are making a huge fuss against Saryn

 

 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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il y a 7 minutes, Arcira a dit :

1.) Arguing about wether or not Saryn is overpowered is kinda redundant don´t you think? The topic should be is this a problem or not and I think there isn´t really a viable alternative.

2.) Maybe maybe not. However I´d assume the major rework for Volt and Saryn around the same time ESO was introduced are supposed to encourage player to use them. Also the Ember changes were around this time as well suggesting the actual reason for the nerfs is they want to make sure she isn´t good in star chart clear and eso at the same time (deversity). But that´s just speculation on my side.

3.) Since this topic is mainly about Saryn I´m trying to limit myself. Otherwise this would escalate into dissertation rather than a statement.

4.) I´ll try to clarify a bit more. This is specifically not about mission types but about playstyles e.g. defend xy, kill as fast as possible, survive/endurance. While there are a lot of missions most of them require the same setup. As strange as it sounds adding new ways to play warfame is probably the easiest way to solve the problem.

5.) Equal doesn´t mean identical. Probably one of the most challanging things in video games and and most developer prefer the much more easy way one tool for one task. There isn´t really a point in discussing this in games like warframe. Especially with things like static kits this is impossible without severely limiting the latidue of design.

You do realise i was answering someone else right ? Reading what that person said would have gone a long way to make you understandable.

Le'ts try to take the few things that makes sense because of that.

1.nothing to do with my answer. Skip.

2. Speculating isn't an argument.

3. Well, no it started on saryn. Problem is not exclusive to Saryn though. There is a ton of stuff to nerf for OP to be happy.

4. Well, i explained it. You didn't understood it. What am i  supposed to do? it's not Most of them it's a 1/4 of them requiring nukes. and it's provoking nerfs request. 

5. Let me explain, if a DPS warframe is supposed to be as powerfull as a support warframe it's boring. That's what i'm saying. No need to talk about gamedesign difficulty for that.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

What's the point of a weapon if we have a warframe that kills everything within a 50-70 meter radius? We need to find a balance. Keep in mind that weapons cannot do damage through walls (at least most samples). Just the ability to act independently of you, that is, you have the opportunity to inflict additional damage or go to another part of the map, leaving the enemies to die. The problem is that people don't think about it. Either nuck the whole map or nothing.

What's the point of a warframe if it can't perform better than a weapon? Should every dps skill be single target now ? what would be the point there are a lot of aoe weapons ?

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

I take such accusations very calmly. Take Loki, put the "solo" mode and show a really good game.

I'm telling you ESO can be done solo without a nuker, you tell me this ? Loki gameplay has no point with nukers nerfs. What's your point ?

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

revenant is the best option for playing at a high level. I don't understand why you concluded that I think saryn is the best candidate. If by high level you mean a sortie, it can be passed by the operator, I already wrote about it. I describe the problem as excessive efficiency that hinders the game. I wrote it several times. How can I write this more clearly?

At this point, i feel the need to point out it's getting hard to figure out what you're talking about, taking differents post from me at the same time is really hard to answer too, loosing track you know ? If you want to be clear, write more than a sentence. Detailing what you want to say would make it more clear since you're asking.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

I didn't really play it. But we do not consider Ember as a CC frame here. She's never been a good nukers above low levels.

Since you didn't play her, obviously you never considered her as a CC either, not surprised here. And now she's a bad nuker on low levels? what's your point? The way i understand you it goes along "she was good to kill low levels, she's nerfed now => saryn kills low levels => nerf her ?" It's really hard to understand you.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

But we can't make fun gameplay if enemies die outside the walls.

I find it relatively fun.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

This only confirms my words that the new content can kill the nukers. You think this is good?

 

Let's say "it's good", people don't care about future content they want to nerf her for current content anyway, so it's not even the subject here.

il y a 13 minutes, zhellon a dit :

It's literally written on the back page. Yes, it is written in support of Saryn, but why can't I use this as an example? This is one message, you can find a lot of them.

Because the OP met saryn in the very best condition and rushed the forum without thinking ! Even going on to say "you don't need anything else if you have Saryn".  First is stupid, Op would have found any other nuker he would have made it on that Nuker. It's not against saryn it's against nukers. Op don't understand that since he lacks experience and knowledge about the game. Using arguments from people who don't know the game and want to impose to everyone their vision of their beginner experience is terrible. 

Saryn isn't the ultimate do all and win all. 

You didn't say anything about the part "everyone rush sorties" of my comment ? I'm wondering why (i'm sarcastic here)?

We're repeating that. Ignoring everything we says and keep repeating the "well there's a lot of this one bad argument, why can't I use that bad argument myself "?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Keep in mind that weapons cannot do damage through walls

This is already wrong. Take a look at staticor, take a look at melee whip with maiming strike, a 4+ punch-through rivens on beam weapons... take a... well... basically stop whining and go play the game, m8-

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Take Loki, put the "solo" mode and show a really good game.

"Take a frame what is not designed for this mission and show a really good game". You are simply ridiculous. Really.... This is beyond recovery.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

It's literally written on the back page. Yes, it is written in support of Saryn, but why can't I use this as an example? This is one message, you can find a lot of them.

->skip game modes != prioritize better game-play.

I am sorry. You are still deliberately sabotaging this conversation. Your last post is so full of nonesense, that even the most patient and good-willing teacher would give up on this.

Edited by TeaHawk
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6 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

I find it relatively fun.

So. That's what I wanted. You have fun killing enemies around you - it's great, but you should know that the players near you can suffer for your fun. Well, if you don't want nerf, let's think about how it can be done so that you keep this fun while not depriving players of the gaming experience. If you like, of course I have no right to deprive you of this, but you also have to respect my rights. We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

For example, I really like the idea of miniBosses appearing in every game, where they will be the main target for the kill, while regular mobs will just get in the way of that. That is, if we are talking about the defense, it will appear in the special mobs, killing them will stop the spawn wave. And the same for all modes like survival for getting special buffs, interception, for more efficient decryption of messages and more more more more.

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

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Posted (edited)
vor 9 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

thats basically wrong...

there are frame which are designed to kill fast single enemys which can used to kill every boss in seconds.

and there are frame which designed to deal mass damage, which inflicts all in a specific radius. they can kill fast this enemies, but will not kill boss or even harder enemy types.

it's not wrong that frame have different purposes - it's just like you use a shotgun for inflict damage on many enemies while you will take a sniper to deal damage to a single target.

you are talking about making something for everyone - then nerfing frames will not make anything better. 

the problem (AGAIN!) is the damage system itself. not the frames, not the abilitys. even the designer knows that and had done several tries to fix this.

but you still talking about nerfing because its the best way - it isn't.

prohibition and restriction never did anything good.

Edited by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, zhellon said:

 We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

Yes, why not? For instance I've never come to see a single person complaining about nukers/op utility ingame. I'm playing on public almost everyday. Nobody ever asked me, or another player to slow down. The sole thing I've been asked after nuking a whole room is "How did you do that?", suggesting that a person is at least interested in game possibilities.

I'm curious, have you ever tried to speak in chat and gently ask people to slow down, giving you more time to enjoy combat? In case they cannot provide it, ask why so?
It might be a perfect solution as well as a new way to make friends/stable teammates and learn the game.

Edited by TeaHawk
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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, zhellon said:

So. That's what I wanted. You have fun killing enemies around you - it's great, but you should know that the players near you can suffer for your fun. Well, if you don't want nerf, let's think about how it can be done so that you keep this fun while not depriving players of the gaming experience. If you like, of course I have no right to deprive you of this, but you also have to respect my rights. We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

For example, I really like the idea of miniBosses appearing in every game, where they will be the main target for the kill, while regular mobs will just get in the way of that. That is, if we are talking about the defense, it will appear in the special mobs, killing them will stop the spawn wave. And the same for all modes like survival for getting special buffs, interception, for more efficient decryption of messages and more more more more.

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

The problem with the idea of minibosses is that they would have to be absolutely crazy, like Wolf of Saturn Six levels of crazy, and would block the player's progress through the mission until they are dealt with. Anything less, and players will either melt them and move on or they'll simply ignore them. This seems like taking some of the bad mechanics that are already in the game designed to hinder players without nerfing them (nullifiers, enemies with high damage mitigation regardless of armor values, etc) and turning it up to 11. How long do you reckon it would take before most people are going to come on here and just complain that these minibosses need to be nerfed, because their nuke frame can't cheese them? 😛

And let's not forget another problem: Players who aren't running optimal meta builds are going to suffer even more. For nukers like Saryn, the minibosses would be like a roadblock. For everyone else, they're the Byzantine wall before the era of gunpowder.

I think it would just be easier to drop the nukers' stats and implement LoS restrictions. In Saryn's case, that would be range drops and LoS rules so she can't destroy everything 50+ meters around her regardless if they're behind obstacles or not.

10 minutes ago, TeaHawk said:

Yes, why not? For instance I've never come to see a single person complaining about nukers/op utility ingame. I'm playing on public almost everyday. Nobody ever asked me, or another player to slow down.

You're correct, but in my case, I just straight up leave the team. I don't play this game to have it played for me, because a teammate can't keep his finger off of 4. 😛

Edited by Pizzarugi
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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You're correct, but in my case, I just straight up leave the team. I don't play this game to have it played for me, because a teammate can't keep his finger off of 4.

Thus, you don't experience any other problem related to Saryn except occasionally willing-fully leaving a session with Saryn-teammate on premise of not having enough combat for you? Is this correct?

Personally, I hate Limbo. I really-really hate Limbo. His mechanics are sabotaging my game-play in close quaters static combat. Each time I have one in team and it's defense/capture, I'm leaving the session. I don't see any problem with this. I don't like it — I avoid it. Simple as that. I'm really glad you're doing it the same way.

 

Edited by TeaHawk

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il y a 1 minute, zhellon a dit :

So. That's what I wanted. You have fun killing enemies around you - it's great, but you should know that the players near you can suffer for your fun. Well, if you don't want nerf, let's think about how it can be done so that you keep this fun while not depriving players of the gaming experience. If you like, of course I have no right to deprive you of this, but you also have to respect my rights. We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

I'll start with your last part. "it should cover all content". Well Killing stuff all around in not "all content", i've proved it multiple times. She's good in Defense in small tilesets. That's all there is to her. If we consider mass killing for the 3/4 of the game, it's not even required. So tell me ? Why should we nerf something not covering all content or why should i find solutions for content not concerned with it ?

 

il y a 1 minute, zhellon a dit :

For example, I really like the idea of miniBosses appearing in every game, where they will be the main target for the kill, while regular mobs will just get in the way of that. That is, if we are talking about the defense, it will appear in the special mobs, killing them will stop the spawn wave. And the same for all modes like survival for getting special buffs, interception, for more efficient decryption of messages and more more more more.

I've a very hard time to make my mind around it. I don't think a miniboss would be a solution, i would kill all the trash with my nuke and oneshot the miniboss with my overpowered weapons anyway, I don't even thing anyone would get the time to see them. If they're not one shot than they're bosses. We've assassination already sooo. Would there be reward for specific places ? 

 

Don't get your point about survival. Saryn can't kill an entire survival map you can move around and mobs will spawn on you? Why do you need a specific mechanic where there's no need and plenty to shoot already for everyone ? Well raising efficiency is not really a good thing for DE, people getting stuff faster make them leave the game faster.

il y a 1 minute, zhellon a dit :

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

I'd rather explore more in depth ideas like your mini boss thing than nerfs. About how we could make it more fun for everyone than destroying nukers fan.

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Just now, TeaHawk said:

Thus, you don't experience any other problem related to Saryn except occasionally willing-fully leaving a session with Saryn-teammate on premise of not having enough combat for you? Is this correct?

In a game where the main premise is a hoard shooter that has co-op? Yeah, I leave. This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

Just a reminder, this is the game we're playing:
220px-Warframe_Cover_Art.png

Not this:
maxresdefault.jpg

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Mini-bosses such as... wait for it... Nullifiers? 😀

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

This week we have an Eidolon Hydrolist hunt night-wave challenge. I would like to see how does one person perform on it. I'd rather see that blossoming one person next time on arbitration capture, so I could peacefully enjoy my teacup instead of keeping eye on my point. Could you please take Saryn or whateverelse you consider self-sufficient and play within my squad? I'd appreciate some help of one-man-super-nuke on Eidolon hunts and an inlimited range-duration CC-healer-buffer on capture. I'm not saying it's that hard to do in solo, no. I'm just curious, because it seems, you've reached such a power level, that you can single-handedly go through this content with ease I'm yet to reach.

Edited by TeaHawk
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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

uhm.. what exactly are you talking about.. ?

lvl 0-15 ? 

really i don't know what you are talking about - which frame on which level should kill everything so noone else can do something

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, TeaHawk said:

This week we have an Eidolon Hydrolist hunt night-wave challenge. I would like to see how does one person perform on it. I'd rather see that blossoming one person next time on arbitration capture, so I could peacefully enjoy my teacup instead of keeping eye on my point. Could you please take Saryn or whateverelse you consider self-sufficient and play within my squad? I'd appreciate some help of one-man-super-nuke on Eidolon hunts.
 

Nice strawman, dude. Just because one frame can't tackle literally everything in the game, it doesn't suddenly make them not OP. Is it really necessary for me to have to say that? Here's a fun tidbit of info: Chroma is broken and can trivialize bosses, and yes, he should be nerfed so players can't run 3+ trios in a single night setting and flood the market with arcanes.

Also, what on earth does this have to do with Saryn nuking entire rooms of enemies 50+ meters around her irrespective of obstacles, which is the topic of the discussion?

1 minute ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

uhm.. what exactly are you talking about.. ?

lvl 0-15 ? 

really i don't know what you are talking about - which frame on which level should kill everything so noone else can do something

The feeling's mutual. What are you talking about?

And when are you going to cut out your own strawman that people who want to see Saryn balanced to not trivialize the game just want everyone to play at level 15 when the game goes all the way to 100? You're just as absurd as TeaHawk.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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Posted (edited)
19 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:

Mini-bosses such as... wait for it... Nullifiers?

😀

I would prefer to abandon Nullifiers. Just a big mob with his mechanics, which ignores the control and damage ability (debuff ability, in principle, it is necessary to leave). Wolf is a good example, but the main problem with him was that he was too fat, but not particularly deadly. Of course, bosses need to be loosened up for solo play because we don't want to deal with content that can't be passed alone. But when forming groups, then, will be more valuable and nuckers and a tank and a support and debuffer/bossSlayer. Everyone will play their role and everyone will get their share of the fan. Of course, a less balanced group will be less effective, but it seems to me that it should be so. 

Nullifiers and ancient infected - that's not what I want, as is the usual mobs, just with the properties of resistance abilities. We need real tough guys to stop us.

Edited by zhellon
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il y a 7 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

In a game where the main premise is a hoard shooter that has co-op? Yeah, I leave. This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

This is not an hoarder game (it's not an old solo RPG). It's a grinding game (or farming). Point is to grind ressources. There's not a single grinding game where players aren't using the most efficient equipment to farm. Using the right words is important.

il y a 7 minutes, TeaHawk a dit :

Mini-bosses such as... wait for it... Nullifiers? 😀

Sometimes I miss obvious stuff... Like the fact it's already in the game ....

il y a 1 minute, TeaHawk a dit :

This week we have a Eidolon Hydrolist hunt night-wave challenge. I would like to see how does one person perform on it. I'd rather see that blossoming one person next time on arbitration capture, so I could peacefully enjoy my teacup instead of keeping eye on my point. Could you please take Saryn or whateverelse you consider self-sufficient and play within my squad? I'd appreciate some help of one-man-super-nuke on Eidolon hunts.
 

I know a few people who could do a trio solo. Been doing it up to 5X3 in teams. I'm doing it in duo most of the times now with 2 unexperienced people to make them discover (from the clan...)

Still i like your style :) 

Can't wait for my 6X3 saryn carry! Must be cool !

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1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

Chroma is broken and can trivialize bosses, and yes, he should be nerfed

This one is absolutely amazing. It is beautiful. No words in whole human language can make this more beautiful.

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Nice strawman, dude. Just because one frame can't tackle literally everything in the game, it doesn't suddenly make them not OP.

We are not speaking of OP. You've been saying that warframe lack teamplay destroyed by OP. I've refuted that by giving a brilliant example of content that requires teamplay.
Stop pretending you did not say that. You're jest circlejerking, nothing more.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

The feeling's mutual. What are you talking about?

And when are you going to cut out your own strawman that people who want to see Saryn balanced to not trivialize the game just want everyone to play at level 15 when the game goes all the way to 100? You're just as absurd as TeaHawk.

ah. absurd because i have no idea why what you talk about?

just let me know on which level a saryn can kill everything else while noone else can kill something.

that only can be happens in a low level defense mission or in lower level symaris runs. any other mission type is to large, and every other enemie to strong...

the problem here is: i ask you for a simple prove of what you say. therefore: which frame, which level, which godlike-mods (because i dont know any mods thats makes saryn in a total overkilling monster) or which mission types.

but instead of an answer, you insult me.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

You do realise i was answering someone else right ? Reading what that person said would have gone a long way to make you understandable.

Le'ts try to take the few things that makes sense because of that.

1.nothing to do with my answer. Skip.

2. Speculating isn't an argument.

3. Well, no it started on saryn. Problem is not exclusive to Saryn though. There is a ton of stuff to nerf for OP to be happy.

4. Well, i explained it. You didn't understood it. What am i  supposed to do? it's not Most of them it's a 1/4 of them requiring nukes. and it's provoking nerfs request. 

5. Let me explain, if a DPS warframe is supposed to be as powerfull as a support warframe it's boring. That's what i'm saying. No need to talk about gamedesign difficulty for that.

Fairly certain I´m me. At least I hope so. English isn´t my native language and the wording might not reflect the things I´m trying to express.

1.) Maybe I did misinterpret your statement but it sounded like you are trying to defend an obviously overpowered kit.

2.) Anything is subjective. But I admit speculation might not be the best word here since it is kinda obvious what those changes are supposed to accomplish. You can´t tell me those buffs and nerfs at this time were done without eso in mind. Otherwise if those things happened unintentionally and the general gameplay experience is supposed to be differnet it would actually be a reason nerf her.

3.) I don´t get the problem. Because there is other stuff that is brolken I have to make a statement about this as well? I prefer to take on one subject at a time otherwise it becomes overloaded and confusing.

4.) I think we talk past one another. Essentially what I said is because of the way warframe works its far more simple to keep saryn broken in her area and introduce more new, sustainable and most important viable mechanics, missions, etc where she is useless but currently underperforming warframes overpowered. Certainly not my prefered scenario but the most likely one. Actually now that I think about it there might be another problem about time management which needs to be considered here as well.

5.) That´s quite limited thinking. The kit defines what type of role you are useful for. But nobody said one charackter can have one kit only. That´s a design decision. A theme like "Ice" for example can be anything whether it´s a tank, support, dps even something like assassin or whatever. In the end it comes down to creativity and how much effort you are willing to put into things like balancing, esthetic, gamplay, etc. The reason this doesn´t work in this game is because a warframe isn´t really considered an avatar you can adjust freely rather than one package or a tool (like a weapon).

Edited by Arcira

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

This is not an hoarder game (it's not an old solo RPG). It's a grinding game (or farming). Point is to grind ressources. There's not a single grinding game where players aren't using the most efficient equipment to farm. Using the right words is important.

In your perspective, you think the point of the game is to farm, which is not the intention set out for the game. The game is grindy as hell, don't get me wrong, but DE didn't sit down together and say "hey, let's make a game with traumatized space wizards piloting cyborg monsters, who's only job is to act as the janitor!". 😛

The game is a hoard shooter, but it's become so grindy that people are choosing to trivialize the game with the most efficient frames in order to circumvent it. I'm not blind to the reason people cheese the game with them, but it's not a reason to justify why they should be allowed to continue being press-4-to-win abusers.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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First thing to post: I don't necessary agree with what DE has done to Ember. However I'm going to post WHY DE FELT THE NEED TO NERF EMBER. Not that I actually agree with it. Also, while I thought Ember was perhaps a slight problem to low level and that she was probably hurting new player experience, I didn't agree she needed a nerf unless it was carefully done, which in this case it was not.

(By the way, I used to play alot of Saryn, Banshee and Ember alot back in the day. So you can imagine this topic is kind of making me sad for those old days also with what people are saying.)

People bringing up Ember and comparing them to Saryn seem to forget a few things while others hit the nail on the head perfectly. 

Ember has had many nerfs while gaining some buffs that have since been mitigated by more nerfs.

At the time I started playing Ember (around the time of Saryn and Banshee release), Ember's Overheat was pretty much the second best way to stay alive in Warframe at the time (With Rhino's Iron Skin also being a problem at the time.) She was pretty much kind of a close range frame due to this thanks to Fire Blast which the Ring of Fire has never increased by ability range. (Though the initial cast is.) Really the only ability that ever had any real range on Ember initially was World on Fire which saw quite a few bit of changes in terms of Duration/Toggle and Range. 

DE felt that Overheat was a problem and changed Ember from basically being a tank to making her be able to do tons more damage with Accelerant. They also started changing certain duration abilities with Toggles. Such as World on Fire and Soundquake (Which ALSO, before Augments was considered a massive problem.) Later on, Negative Duration Saryn was also considered a massive problem as well and thus she was reworked into Saryn 2.0. DE and everyone at the time were super against and hated 'Press 4 to win.' 

Ember's 'Last Problem' that people had with her was her insane ability to nuke low level/Star Chart enemies from orbit very quickly without thinking about it: A problem which DE stated as 'Press and Forget.' Hearing that people also wanted Ember to be 'more viable in Sorties' and such like, they increased her damage with World on Fire thinking that would be a fix, allowing her to 'be able to deal with Sortie level enemies.'

Ember was considered by most to ONLY be good at dealing with 'Low level Trash' and she was brought by many many people to do such as. Infact, many arguments why people didn't want Ember nerfed was because she was 'Only good at dealing with Low Level Trash and that we NEED a quick way of doing those missions.' While many other people argued they wanted Ember to be more useful outside of Low Level/Star Chart content and thus she needed a buff. This resulted in what we got: An Ember that lost range, gained increased energy drain but gained more power. That loss of Range is the most painful thing for Ember and thus DE decided that was the best way to make people 'Not Press and Forget.'

It's pretty flawed and DE have thankfully acknowledged it and want to fix Ember. So in the long run (very long run, sadly) we may benefit.

Now to Saryn: How does this apply to Saryn? Saryn actually has an opposite problem to Ember, which actually may be the reason Saryn is more fine than Ember actually ever was hilariously. 

Saryn has only one real mission in Star Chart that she actually 'dominates': Defence, which let's be clear, we need a way to clear Defence missions quickly. Not just in Star Chart, but in Sortie level also. If it's not Saryn though, it WILL be Equinox, Volt, Banshee, Khora, Nova and frames that nuke very quickly. Hell, I'll even make an argument that Ember herself could do Star Chart defence missions to Rotation C with her current World on Fire easily without any real form of challenge.

All other Star Chart type missions can be done quicker with other frames than Saryn. Even Exterminate, which again I'll actually argue that Ember can still do quicker and faster than Saryn. Equinox and Khora definitely can.

So where does this leave Saryn? The Post Starchart missions. Sorties, Long haul Endless, Arbitrations and SO/ESO. I can tell you for sure that out of all of those, Saryn is only useful in SO/ESO and anything to do with Post-Starchart Defence missions. Hell, the speed at which Saryn supposedly goes through Defence is not enough to make Defence a viable choice in Arbitrations. (However, that's due to Arbitration problems more than anything) which means you'll see more Limbo, Frost, Gara and Khora than Saryn in Arbitrations. 

So why does Saryn excel more in those than in Star Chart? Simple, because Enemy Scaling, especially Grineer and some Corrupted are insane. No one argues that Corrosive Projection x3 + Coaction Drift is almost a mandatory must/need against high level Grineer/Corrupted. No one argues that the best way to fight Eidolons/Profit Taker you need the massive DPS of Chroma. Yes, Saryn has access to the best elements in the game: Corrosive, Toxin and Viral. They can all proc also. However, it's due to late game armour scaling brokeness that these are basically required.

It seems Saryn 3.X was an olive branch to post-Star Chart stuff. She's mandatory because not even DE know how to fix their 'End Game' content currently. This is clear with the fact that they changed Arbitrations around and the way they messed around with ESO (And then subsequently basically abandoned it.) 

So is Saryn actually broken? Not in the content that DE actually want to balance things around. Is she broken in Post-Star chart? Depends how you think about it, but whether you think she's broken or not, she does become mandatory at really near endless levels in Defence and perhaps in Survival. Whether you think she is op/imbalanced or broken in that regard, you need to release that she is a SYMPTOM of the problems of Damage and Endgame scaling, not the cause. Nerfing Saryn doesn't fix these issues, it just makes it harder to deal with later down the road. 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:


Also, what on earth does this have to do with Saryn nuking entire rooms of enemies 50+ meters around her irrespective of obstacles, which is the topic of the discussion?

Excuse me, but here is your previous post:

 

46 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Just a reminder, this is the game we're playing:
220px-Warframe_Cover_Art.png

You're speaking about this game in general. I've answered on this. You have a lot of content, where cooperation is required. Morother, good and efficient Saryn requires at least one support to be as good as she can be as a full nuke.

There's only a couple of game modes there Saryn is really the most efficient way to go through and it's only SO and ESO. All the rest of this game allows you to make better combination and require team-play. Then again, if you speak about low-levels and mid game, then almost any proper build can make the whole rest of the team redundant. For example, Volt on capture/rescue missions for instance. You're just ignoring that.

 

To note for those, who don't understand simple concepts: Nuking is not required in most of content. It's a waste of time and energy. Thus, nuke frame is not the most efficient frame in most of content. I.e. please note, that killing everything is not what you should focus on missions. Okay?
You may find it repetitive, but I have a long experience of seeing people running around and killing everything without advancing mission objective at all.

— I mean... Yeah... it's cool you got new weapon.... But listen, we are on stealth here... Could you please... Oh, I see how beautifully they are burning but we should focus on the objective, keep quiet! No, I don't wanna listen how op your ult is, we're on freaking stealth m8! Oh god, you're not op, you're not doing anything useful, come on! Could you please stop your genocide-party and come here, I can't open that door, m8?  It needs two players to proceed...

Oh. to hell that. Enjoy. I'll do the job.

It happens all the time.
 

Edited by TeaHawk
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il y a 7 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Chroma is broken and can trivialize bosses, and yes, he should be nerfed so players can't run 3+ trios in a single night setting and flood the market with arcanes.

So you don't like nukers, you don't like groupe meta either. 

You've never played any trios if you think a single chroma can do 3+trio by night. It's litteraly the most perfect example of a 4players cooperating together to get stuff.

Nerfing stuff for economy is even worse than nerfing stuff to remove people fun.

By the way Chroma isn't the only one to trivialize boss, any warframe can clear most bosses in a few seconds. And chroma sucks in anything non boss related. Why do you want to destroy warframes so badly ?

il y a 7 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

And when are you going to cut out your own strawman that people who want to see Saryn balanced to not trivialize the game just want everyone to play at level 15 when the game goes all the way to 100? You're just as absurd as TeaHawk.

You don't want balance you want to destroy Saryn to an Ember level so you can start complaining on the next warframe to nerf (since you looooove nerfing stuff).

It goes way over 100 by the way.

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13 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Still i like your style 🙂

Thanks. Maybe we should play together someday. Or, at least, I'm curious, how to make 2-ppl Tridolon runs efficient. I have only one stable teammate to play with. It would be wonderful to learn the fastest way to complete hunts in duo.

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