Can something be done about Saryn?

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

22 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

this is a fair but bad criticism.

if you don't want a grinding slog you can pay, or, you can not do F2P games.  

if  you don't  pay with money, you pay with time, and that's the trade off.  if you want reasonable reward structures get a solo play experience from the 90s that doesn't  connect to the internet before they invented microtransactions, because now even single player games are infested with that  crap... but the one  place grind has a reasonable place to  exist is in  free to play games, which warframe is.  

additionally, no matter what, people will always be hunting for how to be most efficient  and win the hardest, best and fastest, not just in warframe but in any game, so decreasing grind would leave people  with  less pressure, but  they would still use the meta to clear stuff at a fast rate.  plus de would be giving away a free game  without much incentive for people to support it.

like, you're right, the grind sucks, but it's there  by very intentional design, and in a way, it's completely  justified.

don't get me wrong, i totally gripe  about crap drop  rates,  especially  when i can't buy  something  with  plat, but... even if i'm  not buying with plat, at least it's giving me something to do.

 

I wasn’t trying to criticize anyone. Just saying that since this game requires a lot of grinding and farming, people are going to naturally find builds that can destroy multiple enemies at once. Warframes like Excalibur are meant for taking out tough guys one at a time. While Saryn is meant to take out the weaker hordes. People can exaggerate on how quickly she can take them out all they want. But I’ve NEVER came across a Saryn that can wipe out level 60+ without being buffed by my Rhino. 

It is not our fault that this game requires killing everything we encounter without relent. Many other games do too and people complain about those as well. Most people complaining are newbies that don’t know anything about the game or else they will be complaining that there is too much grinding. 

Most of us learn to play the game. Level up in the game. Obtain newer and better gear. And figure out the best builds to get the job done as quickly as possible in order to farm for what we need to build the things we need/want within a few days instead of months. 

If DE hadn’t made this game to be so grindy then maybe I could see these newbies’ points. But what they are demanding is for DE to hold the rest of us back because they are either ignorant or slow. And it wouldn’t be long before these same people are on here complaining that it takes too long to farm for everything.

I have 2,000 orokin cells. Now to a newbie that appears to be a lot. But to someone who has farmed every day or at least played this game a few hours everyday, it is not. 2,000 over the last 2 years!!! It took me 2 years of just farming and grinding for me to be holding this many. Which just shows how rare these things are. And prime gear require 10-15 each time. I use to spend hours farming specifically for these cells to build all the primes I finally managed to obtain everyday. I would be lucky to get 40 orokin cells in one day without the use of a booster. 

So frames that wiped out the map made it a lot easier for me. Now I have all these frames and these newbies want to take it all away from not only us but from themselves too? 

If DE ever gets it in their head to nerf the frames, then they better nerf the enemies and buff the drop rates. And otherwise a lot of old and new players are gonna quit this game cause not everybody has the time to spend weeks farming for resources to build just one new item. Especially the newer ones that come with newer resources to farm for. 

Point is, people really need to think before they speak about a change to the entire mechanic of the game. 

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

12 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

First, please check what you've typed before you post. It's clearly painful to read.

Second, elitism is an argument brought against us. There's no denial elitism exist, in this post scenario it's not the case. I don't care that you encountered a low level player elitist (MR 18 is low seriously!).

Third, you confirm everything i've been saying so far : MR is not related to skill, it's related to level stuff, as incredible as it can be it means we know something about EFFICIENCY related to farm when we're 27 in a low amount of hours. Our efficient way of leveling stuff under attack is what we're proving to be stupid and selfish right now. We're not fighting "elitism".

Can you please stay on topic instead of derailing completely about a fake argument against ours ? thank you!

They were literally saying MR doesn't mean anything but that you've had a lot of stuff. 

This victim mentality you've adopted about this situation is also confusing. No one and nothing is under attack. People are debating on the balance issues caused by a frame and playstyle. 

Also: Being passive aggressive isn't a great way to make a point. 

[Klokwerkaos]

3 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

But I’ve NEVER came across a Saryn that can wipe out level 60+ without being buffed by my Rhino.

i can, as can anyone else with the resources to build her properly.  also, put a zaw in the hands of any warframe and 60+ Is nothing.  until enemies get to the 140+ bracket they are basically wet tissue paper.

that said, i also have all the god tier stuff in the game to min max any build i want to make it viable for solo endless for hours, so it's not exactly a specific frame that is the problem, it"s that we have god tier players playing next to newbs and that causes tension.

sure they fixed the issue with ember just roasting the whole board (at the cost of making her the only truly trash tier frame atm), but the experience is still the same for a newb, they run behind the beefy player and pick up loot on their way to extract, often not firing a single shot.

 

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

If DE hadn’t made this game to be so grindy then maybe I could see these newbies’ points. But what they are demanding is for DE to hold the rest of us back because they are either ignorant or slow. And it wouldn’t be long before these same people are on here complaining that it takes too long to farm for everything.

i completely agree.  there is no pleasing the public.  at a certain point people need to accept that there is  a lot of grind in the game because it's F2P, and as a result, more experienced players will have access to grind faster, because they have more to invest in that.  this is often refer to this brand of player as overly entitled... they want a free game, with little to no grind, and to be god tier all at once... I'm actually embarrassed for them.

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Point is, people really need to think before they speak about a change to the entire mechanic of the game. 

i 100% agree, however, this is the internet.  and these are the official warframe forums.  well thought out intellectual discourse is not exactly the base expectation.

I'm usually happy if people aren't flinging their own poo at others.  low expectations makes survival here easier 🙂
 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[kwlingo]

 

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

18 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And not everyone signed up to play "shoot brain dead AI simulator". An AI whose patterns one generally knows after the first few weeks of playing. Then it's just a matter of tanking the damage / killing them faster than they can even deal damage. Thereafter they play warframe for other content. Thus they rather kill fodder enemies in Hydron fast so they can get their freshly forma'ed gear back to 30, and go back to their scheduled 3x3 tridolon hunting on PoE or Orb Mother slaying. Different people signed up for different things. Not everyone is a Hydron main like some of you. And in ESO, Simaris' dialogue literally says "do not relent" "kill faster", implying what DE was thinking when they built that game mode, but meanwhile forum mains are like, "no, must nerf all of us so we kill slower"

 

But other people's wants or ideas for the game don't matter right? Only forum mains matter.

I myself am not a routine tridolon hunter but I can understand very much why some people choose to use nukers and want to do things fast. And yes, when I really want to go slow, I play solo, I don't go into public games and do passive aggressive things like AFK and watch the nuker, or create host migrations when I see some nuker that I think will disrupt my desire to go slow. That's the nature of public game, you live with whoever and whatever RNG gives you. Can't accept? Don't want to accommodate? Go solo. This is not a troll suggestion to be honest, this is very much just being courteous to other players - i.e. accepting both fast AND slow methods, i.e. variety and diversity. Not just demanding only slow methods allowed (i.e killing diversity and creating homogeneity) , which is what most people on the "nerf the things" camp are calling for. One side is very much advocating for restricting and limiting player options - the nerf side, and yet they somehow are completely oblivious to their unfriendly approach towards others. 

While your statement is indeed correct, it does contain some flaws. Even though I thoroughly dislike the lacklustre enemy AI, I'll still kill them whenever I see them, whether I gain affinity or not, because that is a core part of the game. Killing enemies to get more resources and items, so you can go and grind the next item. It's what makes the grind bearable; so when there are no enemies to kill, either out of necessity or boredom, you're left with nothing to do but go afk. Yes, you still get the resources if your team-mate kills the enemies, but how much enjoyment do you gather from waiting for someone to finish nuking? Heck, most of the examples you provided still require you to actively engage in killing brain-dead crewmen, eidolons, or random grineer.

I understand the need for nukes, in order to make getting through the slog (I myself, have frequently used Volt to just get through missions I dislike), a lot quicker, but as I said before, it can be done, without nuking the entire map or removing an element of game-play from others. ESO is not something I'd use as an example of why this game needs nukes. Removing ESO really wouldn't affect anything, since it provides barely anything or worth, and like Arbitrations, the rewards are too heavily saturated with things like relics and endo; the primary incentive for going into ESO would be levelling, since most of the other rewards have such low drop chances, it's not even worth it (unless you're devilishly lucky, and got an entire vandal, peculiar mod, or Khora set on your first try).

The wants and ideas of others are as important as your own, but if you can't be bothered to voice those ideals or opinions, then you really are in no position to complain about the outcome of the event. These forums aren't hidden, and everyone has a free voice here, why, you could say any number of preposterous things, and you'd probably find someone who'd agree with you.

When it comes to public groups, I opt to just let it go; it makes everything so much easier. However, when the balance of the game comes into question, I will undoubtedly say what I think needs to be said, because whatever happens would end up affecting me, regardless of whether I play solo or not.

Organising a group through recruiting chat is a laughable suggestion, since it's become overrun with people looking to do tridolons (especially after the day and night cycles changes), relics or farming. I've tried gathering groups for very specific missions, and each one resulted in failure. Running missions with clanmates? My clan has six members, all of them are my friends or mutual friends, but now, none of them log on, and I've invested to much to just up and leave. After having spent hundreds of hours in public groups, with a fair amount of delightful (or strange) encounters with randoms, I just find solo to be very isolated. It's a lot of fun, to occasionally "handshake" with a random, or have a dance off at extraction.

Frankly, I think both sides are being very abrasive towards one another, due to a loss of respect. To the Saryn + nuke fans, they may believe this side is being very restrictive, whiny, or or just needlessly destructive towards something they love. To the anti-nuke crowd, they may think the nuke fans are being equally whiny, destructive, or restrictive. There are times when I'll be re-reading something I've posted, and I'll realise I was being a bit of a prick towards the person I was arguing with, until I come across some denigrating comment, or a part where they're clearly talking down to me.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typos

[Arcira]

On 2019-08-20 at 12:22 AM, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Our enemies being vastly underpowered is where the heart of the issue lies.

As long as they remain in their current state, we will continue to encounter this problem. I believe already addressed this fact, in one of my older posts. However, I also touched upon the unlikely hood of this issue being acknowledged by DE and properly dealt with.

Nerfing Saryn temporarily solves a portion of the problem, but this horrendous damage system shall continue to generate problems, until DE is forced to take a look at it. Which isn't going to happen, anytime in the near future.

I find Lenz to be an excellent mass killer, however, due to the restrictions placed upon it, you probably won't be able to nuke things at the same level of Saryn (I am excluding rivens in this estimation, due to how problematic they are).

A simple combo with huge area of effect, low energy costs, no line of sight restriction, no limit on affected enemies, no cooldown, incredible damage scaling/ramp up and the in general as best considered status effects in the game. Might just be me but sounds fundamentally broken and smells a bit like favouritism.

Anyway, eventhough Saryn is somewhat of an extreme case I think there is a general idea behind this. The lack of "difficulty" is a topic constatly mentioned but I´d argue warframe is far from easy if you play the regular way. There are simply ways to bypass any difficulty with certain abilities, weapons or mods. Sometimes this is obviously unintentionally but sometimes not.

In case of Saryn (and Volt) I´m pretty sure it´s absolutely itentionally to make them broken. It´s probably the most efficient approach for developer since you make certain warframes the choice for a specific mission aka the easiest way to "encourage" diversity. From there perspective this is reasonable because they put a lot of effort into creating individual warframes, skins, etc.

 

Anyway I can think of two solutions here:

Increase mission variety. The main issue is quite obvious: There are 40 different warframes already but realistically like 5 relevant game modes. I´m not talking about adding another defend xy style mission type but a new, relevant and sustainable way to play. "New" obviously because otherwise there is no need for an another warframe choice and "relevant" means.. let´s just say loki is kinda broken in (..the actual part of..) spy missions but stealth isn´t really a game defining playstyle in warframe. And of cause "sustainable" because it never becomes core if it will be abandoned after some time.

Alternatively you could make every warframe equally viable which first of all condredicts the point mentioned above and secondly makes the overall design process much more difficult. Also this would need a major system overhaul i.e. not gonna happen.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Arcira

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

1 hour ago, Arcira said:

A simple combo with huge area of effect, low energy costs, no line of sight restriction, no limit on affected enemies, no cooldown, incredible damage scaling/ramp up and the in general as best considered status effects in the game. Might just be me but sounds fundamentally broken and smells a bit like favouritism.

Anyway, eventhough Saryn is somewhat of an extreme case I think there is a general idea behind this. The lack of "difficulty" is a topic constatly mentioned but I´d argue warframe is far from easy if you play the regular way. There are simply ways to bypass any difficulty with certain abilities, weapons or mods. Sometimes this is obviously unintentionally but sometimes not.

In case of Saryn (and Volt) I´m pretty sure it´s absolutely itentionally to make them broken. It´s probably the most efficient approach for developer since you make certain warframes the choice for a specific mission aka the easiest way to "encourage" diversity. From there perspective this is reasonable because they put a lot of effort into creating individual warframes, skins, etc.

 

Anyway I can think of two solutions here:

Increase mission variety. The main issue is quite obvious: There are 40 different warframes already but realistically like 5 relevant game modes. I´m not talking about adding another defend xy style mission type but a new, relevant and sustainable way to play. "New" obviously because otherwise there is no need for an another warframe choice and "relevant" means.. let´s just say loki is kinda broken in (..the actual part of..) spy missions but stealth isn´t really a game defining playstyle in warframe. And of cause "sustainable" because it never becomes core if it will be abandoned after some time.

Alternatively you could make every warframe equally viable which first of all condredicts the point mentioned above and secondly makes the overall design process much more difficult. Also this would need a major system overhaul i.e. not gonna happen.

 

Your opening line highlights exactly why I also maintain the position that we need limitations on our abilities. Both a broken damage system and an unfettered access to such power contributes greatly to our current dilemma.

Saryn has, as someone else put it, the holy trinity of damage types. That description is entirely correct because toxin, viral, and corrosion work beautifully against every faction; there is currently no need for any other damage type, with the exception of slash, and radiation. Electricity only works up until level 100, maybe longer if we're dealing with Corpus.

I do however, disagree with your position about difficulty in the game. It's very possible to clear the starchart without using anything other than Excalibur, a hek, and guandao, as long as you mod them decently.

I'm fairly certain Saryn was the result of a massive oversight. Although now, they can't really do anything about it, since she's become very popular.

I think Disruption is a good start, since you actually have to prepare for the mission, and straight up damage wont cut it for very long.

Currently, equalising the warframes is impossible, since there will always be one who's better than others at specific mission types. The only way we could achieve this is, yes, through a massive overhaul, that could transform the game into something completely different.

I overall, I do agree with you, although it's dis-heartening to realise that reworking the combat and damage system are unlikely to ever happen, and a sizeable portion of the community rejects cool-down mechanics, or any means of toning down their power scale.

[Cibyllae]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

and a sizeable portion of the community rejects cool-down mechanics, or any means of toning down their power scale.

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

36 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

Prime example.

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

9 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

The problem is the absurdity of the power level. 

Nerfing and rebalancing are essential to the health of a game, especially those with players interacting with players. This happens across all genres, across games for all ages. Even Pokemon will nerf and tweak things.

Rejecting any and all changes will make the game stagnate and die. 

Saryn has an absurd ammount of power, and its accessible laughibly easy. She has no limitation, no downsides to her power. Nothing to make her even remotely cooperative in a co-op focused game  Even Equinox has to wait or work for a similar level of elimination. She at least has to rely in allies kilking things and killing things herself. Even Equinox has supportive play functions. 

Saryn effectively eliminates the gameplay for the team, and uses her teammates for nothing more than upping the spawnrates, and thus, her kills. She kills through walls, she has no restrictions on her killing abilities. There is no such thing as Line of Sight with her. She has a high range, high output and very low energy costs. She doesn't have to work to be able to blast away every non-Tenno living being. As someone else put it, this is fundamentally broken.

Even Equinox has a constant passive drain on her energy from Maim. Even Equinox has to wait for the time she can detonate her Maim. 

Even most other powerful Frames are limited or hindered by something.

The problem is that Saryn's abilities don't have anything to restrict her in any sense. Abilities like hers should have some sort of counterbalance to them, or, alternatively, her killing ability needs to be toned down. She needs limits.

The other problem is yes, the enemies are weak. Most people can manage to scrape together a build on a decent weapon that'll get us a pretty good ways. They die easily and aren't very smart. 

But killing them shouldn't be as easy as pressing two buttons from the other side of the room, where you can't even see them.

We need a solution that helps both problems. 

[Cibyllae]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Prime example.

How much Xp do you have on Saryn?

Edit: Cause im getting extremely tired of your bull s h i t

Edited August 21, 2019 by Cibyllae

[Cibyllae]

14 minutes ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

She needs limits.

She had limits and then people complained . What makes you think the community is going to get it right this time?

[TeaHawk]

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

But killing them shouldn't be as easy as pressing two buttons from the other side of the room, where you can't even see them.

Why? Just because a newcomer from well balanced competitive shooter would come and say so?
Warframe is a game about overpowered ancient technology, unlimited fearsome one-frame army if you wish. Being able to eliminate a huge nuber of enemies without engaging them directly is a core gampeplay. Even if you read the description of Saryn provided by Lotus:

Quote

This is Saryn, elusive and deadly.

Saryn is a deadly force on the battlefield. Get down with the sickness, Tenno.

Does the word "elusive" mean something for you? She's designed to be what she is — a perfect flawless killer with decent damage scaling.

 

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Even Equinox has supportive play functions.

Even? Do you know that Equinox's main gimmick is being half-dp-half-support? She's literally designed to be a combination of two. She's an exception. That is a bad example.

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

pressing two buttons

Here again you are lying. Playing Saryn on high levels (lvl. 120+) requires management, maneuvers self-preservation, and, of course a decent build with materials you've been collecting through out the game. You will not do well on ESO without a properly moded frame. You will simply die/run out of energy/loose your stacks.

Indeed, stock Saryn performs well on beginner levels (<40). It's normal, considering her role given by description of this frame. It's normal, considering her damage types.

Before going forward in this discussion I want to see a screenshot of you playing solo/no support on 8th room of ESO with Saryn doing exactly what you described: unstoppable elimination. The condition will be: no support frames in your team and no melee/staticor. If Saryn is as good as you describe her, 8 rooms of ESO without proper teammates and weapons should be a casual walk for you. As you said previously warframe is a time-killer. Hence, I suggest you sacrifice half-an-hour in order to bring up a viable proof of Saryn invincibility what will reanimate this discussion with new indisputable argument. Why do you think?

Let's resume: go on ESO with your Saryn. No support frames in your team. No aoe weapons in your inventory. Complete 8th room. Have much larger dps and kills than your teammates. Take screenshot of used build and inventory, as well as a proof of completion.

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[Veridian]

So we nerf Saryn.
Then we nerf Volt
Then Mesa
Gara
Equinox...

So on and so forth, until your noob trap build of Rhino+Arca Plasmor finally manages to outdamage a DPS frame?

Do people not realize that if those frames could not outperform general gunplay there would be 0 reason to play them?

Edited August 21, 2019 by Ver1dian

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Sea_Blue_Stars:

The problem is the absurdity of the power level. 

no... thats not the problem... 

did you ever play a saryn with "this absurd" power level you talk about?

no?

thats because a saryn with this does not exist...

you can build her to deal lot of damage - agree. but mostly for specific situations. and thats exact what this frame is for. like other frame are for other situations.

beside that she never will kill "everything on a blink" like so many repeatly write. 

miasma can deal with lowest level enemies very easy, yes - but that because it's meant to be used in high level missions to strip enemies to make them more attackable while they lost armor, health and be stunned for seconds.

spores already have so much restriction that you will have all hand on to make them go in circles so your team will have enough to do.

more restrictions will make the frame and her powers unusable. like ember already. 

thats not balancing. thats destruction. and that will never help any game - this has already destroyed many game in the past.

yes, saryn is not for enemies under lvl 30. may thats the case why she is farmed on sedna - a planet with the highest power level up to 60.

like a lot of other frames saryn is a perfect balanced frame for playing high level content without frustration.

you line "absurdity of power level" just point out a single thing: you have absolute no idea what you are talking about... ( do you really understand the mechanics of warframe? ) but you want to destroy a real good frame.

Edited August 21, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
add some...

[Xepthrichros]

2 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I'm fairly certain Saryn was the result of a massive oversight. Although now, they can't really do anything about it, since she's become very popular.

I'm fairly certain Saryn is working as intended since Pablo reworked her and made her exactly as she is now, still strong. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

The only way we could achieve this is, yes, through a massive overhaul, that could transform the game into something completely different.

Yeah so alienate current player base, everyone who ever invested in Saryn, bought skins for her, etc. consider her a main, and also everyone else who isn't maining her but understands her purpose and role in terms of fodder-clearing DPS and use her for that, and then use other warframes to do other things like Chroma to kill Eidolons, just to satisfy complaints. Eliminate one good tool and make it useless just to appease some people that do not understand her purpose.

1 hour ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Nerfing and rebalancing are essential to the health of a game, especially those with players interacting with players

Subjective. What some see as imbalance. Some see as fine and working as intended, each frame fulfilling their intended role. Some warframes are virtually immortal, with super high effective HP. Some are invisible all the time. Some can literally enter another realm and avoid taking damage altogether. You can interact with a Saryn in defense maps or ESO by giving her energy, buffing her damage etc.

 

1 hour ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Saryn effectively eliminates the gameplay for the team, and uses her teammates for nothing more than upping the spawnrates, and thus, her kills. She kills through walls, she has no restrictions on her killing abilities. There is no such thing as Line of Sight with her. She has a high range, high output and very low energy costs. She doesn't have to work to be able to blast away every non-Tenno living being. As someone else put it, this is fundamentally broken.

Even Equinox has a constant passive drain on her energy from Maim. Even Equinox has to wait for the time she can detonate her Maim. 

You all will call for nerfs on Equinox shortly after you are done with nerfing Saryn. I've seen even some folks mention Mag is OP (only thing this person doesn't mention is Oberon, yes the Oberon that can make his team unkillable and make the game boring for all team mates as all challenge and threat of failure is removed, the Oberon that can nuke a lot of the map, CC them with radiation, and solo kill eidolons, etc. yet Oberon is not mentioned by him to be nerfed, but everything else, because Oberon is his main - of course he wants his main to shine, and nerf all the rest for that)

But I digress. So you talk about nerf the whole game until everything is equal. Let entertain this hypothetical game. When that day comes, and that is achieved, I will ask: Why level up? Why farm anything? Why bother with mods? Why MR? For what? It's all the same. All cosmetic differences. No real difference or diversity of power and gameplay, just an illusion of it. Everything is the same, from the day I create an account, to the day I see a meaningless MR26 or whatever number we reach at that point.

The solution is to make more game modes where DPS frames become less relevant and other types of frames with CC or tanks or stealth are relevant.  Such modes should also be more  rewarding in proportion to the hassle or stress involved. This can be done by tweaking enemy damage and ability resistances and giving them smarter AI too since if they are going to be alive longer, they better be interesting and not boring bullet sponges. But if players do not like these difficult modes, they still can fall back on their favorite easier modes and take a Saryn / (insert favorite nuker here) to some good old nuking at some map to vent their anger or satisfy power fantasies. You don't need the entire game to be one experience.  The game has some of this currently with modes like Disruption, Arbitration, Low Energy Sorties and Energy Drain Nightmare, Orb Mothers and Eidolon hunts where map wide nukers are less prevalent. For people desiring to see less of Saryn, perhaps go there if you hate map nukers so much. Problem is some of you see Hydron and other low level content  as the beginning and end of warframe experience. Might as well rename the game "Hydron". Or perhaps you actually can't handle the restrictions and inconveniences the other modes put on you, you still want to feel OP and have power trips, but your main isn't Saryn, you are salty whatever it is you main can't be played the way you want and just want the entire game nerfed to your level. Basically a selfish game design approach.

Nerfing the DPS frames to the ground or rebalancing the entire game to be a uniform difficulty experience with just some flavor and setting differences is NOT the solution. You kill the game even faster. Supposing the Devs actually listen to you and overhaul the game. New players find out the start to end of game is just the same thing against more or less same AI but with different Iron Man wannabe costumes with so-called different powers that are actually just cosmetic variations of 1) Single Target nuke. 2) DR / survival skill 3) heal skill 4) Small AOE nuke. Guess what? Boring. Tried one frame, tried them all. Watch people quit even faster. Heck, it's already a problem right NOW. I have friends who quit exactly because they see no point farming new warframes after a certain point, cos the OG frames do their roles very solidly and the recent releases just get a "meh" out of them. I tell them about the newer frames since PoE and they will just refer me back to an older frame they got from star chart bosses that can do the same thing. Frames released with cosmetic/thematic reskins of a pre-existing mechanic. People who don't care about cosmetics see through it and just hand wave farming that as a waste of time. I am repeating myself at this point but you do what you have to do when people make the same repetitive arguments at you. 

 

... Even Dark Souls allows me to level up and one-shot enemies of lower levels to allow faster farming.

[TeaHawk]

13 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The solution is to make more game modes where DPS frames become less relevant and other types of frames with CC or tanks or stealth are relevant.

These modes already exist. Moreover, they make more than half of the gameplay. A person who is taking dps everywhere is inefficient. Pure DPS is very limited.

13 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

uch modes should also be more  rewarding in proportion to the hassle or stress involved.

The whole reward system should be entirely reworked. At current state there's no scaling, no need do go further, no need to struggle with higher levels. It's simply inconsistent as it is.

Even new game modes as disruption still don't have proper rewards. There's no need to go where after you collected all mods, and materials to build Wisp and a couple of weapons.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[AkyFenrir]

Il y a 11 heures, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

They were literally saying MR doesn't mean anything but that you've had a lot of stuff. 

This victim mentality you've adopted about this situation is also confusing. No one and nothing is under attack. People are debating on the balance issues caused by a frame and playstyle. 

Also: Being passive aggressive isn't a great way to make a point. 

I'm not passive aggressive here, the one I quoted LITERRALY derailed the subject on elitism ! This has nothing to do with the current subject. If he has a problem with elitism he should go on one of those countless elitist complaints post.

People see agressivity everywhere these days, since you're the one using words like "toxic" i'm not surprised you can't handle it.

Il y a 7 heures, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

1. While your statement is indeed correct, it does contain some flaws. Even though I thoroughly dislike the lacklustre enemy AI, I'll still kill them whenever I see them, whether I gain affinity or not, because that is a core part of the game. Killing enemies to get more resources and items, so you can go and grind the next item. It's what makes the grind bearable; so when there are no enemies to kill, either out of necessity or boredom, you're left with nothing to do but go afk. Yes, you still get the resources if your team-mate kills the enemies, but how much enjoyment do you gather from waiting for someone to finish nuking? Heck, most of the examples you provided still require you to actively engage in killing brain-dead crewmen, eidolons, or random grineer.

2.  understand the need for nukes, in order to make getting through the slog (I myself, have frequently used Volt to just get through missions I dislike), 

3. The wants and ideas of others are as important as your own, but if you can't be bothered to voice those ideals or opinions, then you really are in no position to complain about the outcome of the event. These forums aren't hidden, and everyone has a free voice here, why, you could say any number of preposterous things, and you'd probably find someone who'd agree with you.

4. When it comes to public groups, I opt to just let it go; it makes everything so much easier. However, when the balance of the game comes into question, I will undoubtedly say what I think needs to be said, because whatever happens would end up affecting me, regardless of whether I play solo or not.

5 organising a group through recruiting chat is a laughable suggestion, since it's become overrun with people looking to do tridolons (especially after the day and night cycles changes), relics or farming. I've tried gathering groups for very specific missions, and each one resulted in failure. Running missions with clanmates? My clan has six members, all of them are my friends or mutual friends, but now, none of them log on, and I've invested to much to just up and leave. After having spent hundreds of hours in public groups, with a fair amount of delightful (or strange) encounters with randoms, I just find solo to be very isolated. It's a lot of fun, to occasionally "handshake" with a random, or have a dance off at extraction.

6. Frankly, I think both sides are being very abrasive towards one another, due to a loss of respect. To the Saryn + nuke fans, they may believe this side is being very restrictive, whiny, or or just needlessly destructive towards something they love. To the anti-nuke crowd, they may think the nuke fans are being equally whiny, destructive, or restrictive. There are times when I'll be re-reading something I've posted, and I'll realise I was being a bit of a prick towards the person I was arguing with, until I come across some denigrating comment, or a part where they're clearly talking down to me.

 

 

1. If you don't know the best way to grind ressources is trough Survival ... Where Saryn isn't even a "good" thing there. My point is : I reached a point where i want to limit my time spent to grind ressources by going with the best option available. Saryn isn't even there, it's just a way to go quickly trough defenses. I don't particularly like a mode where there's so long down times between fights, and since i'm farming over and over Hydron with gear to formate, I can't even imagine spending 3 to 4times that time with barely playable stuff.

2. They're really cool, it cut down my Hydron time by 3 to 4 depending the team if there's none.

3. Here's the thing, I don't think a correct argument has less value than mines. However when it's about destroying a convenience, while there are ways to avoid it (and not requiring nerfs). Who's the bad one here ? In my opinion ruining other players gameplay because you don't like it (even if you can actively avoid it) is worse than suggesting to go premade. => one wants to deny gameplay, the other offer a solution that can be done now. Whatever the subject i'll always side against gameplay reducing nerfs.

4. So let's say we Nerf nukers, we can't use them solo either anymore ? Would affect us a lot. There's one obvious point about "difficulty" in the game. Whenever it's added by DE complaints are flying "too hard and stuff". I'm not of of those people but, as mentionned by dev themselves they want an accessible content everyone can enjoy. If it starts to get challenging people will go off. I'll add here i've no idea how this change would affect the game in term of players, it's complete speculation.

5. Well I suppose it depends what you're looking to do. If you're going for unpopular missions it'll be hard for sure. For hydron, ESO and so on it's relatively easy (and that's where nukers shine anyway). I do get you don't want to leave your inactive clan, it's on you if you're not joining an active clan. Gotta say i'm in a big clan and can't really play in clan. Since you don't want to quit, maybe you should ask the rights to your friend so you could join an alliance to play with other players ?

6. I won't deny it, it's true. As stated earlier, destroying options is always bad when there's options available to avoid nukers (it requires some "work"... )

 

Il y a 7 heures, Arcira a dit :

1. A simple combo with huge area of effect, low energy costs, no line of sight restriction, no limit on affected enemies, no cooldown, incredible damage scaling/ramp up and the in general as best considered status effects in the game. Might just be me but sounds fundamentally broken and smells a bit like favouritism.

2. Anyway, eventhough Saryn is somewhat of an extreme case I think there is a general idea behind this. The lack of "difficulty" is a topic constatly mentioned but I´d argue warframe is far from easy if you play the regular way. There are simply ways to bypass any difficulty with certain abilities, weapons or mods. Sometimes this is obviously unintentionally but sometimes not.

3. In case of Saryn (and Volt) I´m pretty sure it´s absolutely itentionally to make them broken. It´s probably the most efficient approach for developer since you make certain warframes the choice for a specific mission aka the easiest way to "encourage" diversity. From there perspective this is reasonable because they put a lot of effort into creating individual warframes, skins, etc.

 

 Anyway I can think of two solutions here:

4. Increase mission variety. The main issue is quite obvious: There are 40 different warframes already but realistically like 5 relevant game modes. I´m not talking about adding another defend xy style mission type but a new, relevant and sustainable way to play. "New" obviously because otherwise there is no need for an another warframe choice and "relevant" means.. let´s just say loki is kinda broken in (..the actual part of..) spy missions but stealth isn´t really a game defining playstyle in warframe. And of cause "sustainable" because it never becomes core if it will be abandoned after some time.

5. Alternatively you could make every warframe equally viable which first of all condredicts the point mentioned above and secondly makes the overall design process much more difficult. Also this would need a major system overhaul i.e. not gonna happen.

 

1. Never seen a saryn playing spore in defense, at this point any nuker is the same. Suggesting there's a problem with ESO, the only place spore is really played, is kinda... unexpected.

2. Most of the times, dev would think of a concept but not in every way. Player will scan everything and develop a meta to do it as fast as possible. There's not much that can be done at this point, even if you nerf nukers some players like op won't be able to kill stuff, nukers aren't the only anti play mechanics in the game.

3. You've missed so many nukers here, sad you know only 2 :)  And of course there are better options for missions types. Funny nobody request nerf about "spy" warframes. Oh right, most of people are waiting for the one who knows to do it and don't complain about it. Funny right ?

4. Let's See: Capture/Sabotage/rescue/defense/mobile defense/survival/exterminate/spy/assassination/ESO/Arbitration/defefection/disruption. Nukers are a problem for what 2 out of 12 modes? ok. 

5. If everything is the same, everything is boring. It's an obvious fact... There's no way a Loki can be as viable as a Saryn anyway ? and nukers are relatively equivalent. Don't get your point here ? 

Il y a 4 heures, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

1.Saryn has, as someone else put it, the holy trinity of damage types. That description is entirely correct because toxin, viral, and corrosion work beautifully against every faction; there is currently no need for any other damage type, with the exception of slash, and radiation. Electricity only works up until level 100, maybe longer if we're dealing with Corpus.

2. I do however, disagree with your position about difficulty in the game. It's very possible to clear the starchart without using anything other than Excalibur, a hek, and guandao, as long as you mod them decently.

3. I'm fairly certain Saryn was the result of a massive oversight. Although now, they can't really do anything about it, since she's become very popular.

4.i  think Disruption is a good start, since you actually have to prepare for the mission, and straight up damage wont cut it for very long.

5. Currently, equalising the warframes is impossible, since there will always be one who's better than others at specific mission types. The only way we could achieve this is, yes, through a massive overhaul, that could transform the game into something completely different.

6. overall, I do agree with you, although it's dis-heartening to realise that reworking the combat and damage system are unlikely to ever happen, and a sizeable portion of the community rejects cool-down mechanics, or any means of toning down their power scale.

1. Except it isn't good against infested past a certain level too.

2. That's totally true, thank you to point it out.

3. Ember was popular sooo... 

4. hmm'yeah I suppose.

5. Let's say for argument sake: the game get "balanced" a dps frame should not be equivalent to a furtive or support or tanky one. Or they're all the same and there's no abilities anymore.

6. They're working on melee 3.0 ... We'll see after that maybe ?

Il y a 3 heures, Cibyllae a dit :

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

We're passive agressive to suggest that ...

Il y a 3 heures, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

1. The problem is the absurdity of the power level. 

2. Nerfing and rebalancing are essential to the health of a game, especially those with players interacting with players. This happens across all genres, across games for all ages. Even Pokemon will nerf and tweak things.

3. Rejecting any and all changes will make the game stagnate and die. 

4. Saryn has an absurd ammount of power, and its accessible laughibly easy. She has no limitation, no downsides to her power. Nothing to make her even remotely cooperative in a co-op focused game  Even Equinox has to wait or work for a similar level of elimination. She at least has to rely in allies kilking things and killing things herself. Even Equinox has supportive play functions. 

5. Saryn effectively eliminates the gameplay for the team, and uses her teammates for nothing more than upping the spawnrates, and thus, her kills. She kills through walls, she has no restrictions on her killing abilities. There is no such thing as Line of Sight with her. She has a high range, high output and very low energy costs. She doesn't have to work to be able to blast away every non-Tenno living being. As someone else put it, this is fundamentally broken.

6. Even Equinox has a constant passive drain on her energy from Maim. Even Equinox has to wait for the time she can detonate her Maim. 

7. Even most other powerful Frames are limited or hindered by something.

8. The problem is that Saryn's abilities don't have anything to restrict her in any sense. Abilities like hers should have some sort of counterbalance to them, or, alternatively, her killing ability needs to be toned down. She needs limits.

9. The other problem is yes, the enemies are weak. Most people can manage to scrape together a build on a decent weapon that'll get us a pretty good ways. They die easily and aren't very smart. 

10.But killing them shouldn't be as easy as pressing two buttons from the other side of the room, where you can't even see them.

11We need a solution that helps both problems. 

1. It's a one sided opinion i'm not sharing.

2. That's why saryn got buffed in her next rework so now she has to use spores to be effective... You know running around. 

3. I'm not rejecting "any" changes. I'm rejecting poor thought nerfs.

4. So you mean that staying on a single fix position and waiting for other people to raise your stacking dps is "better" than saryn? Equinox is easier to play. Point is Saryn is more active, that's why we play her for defense (exclusively, people like op thing she can do "everything" xD)

5. Any nukers do that. That's why we say it's stupid to go after saryn. Going for a boring long succession of nerfs request isn't really what i'm looking for.

6. Yeah and Saryn has to raise and maintain spores. Can't be done in defense, and there's other nukers than equinox. It's a reccurent problem to see people don't even know every nukers here, some being even better.

7. Saryn is kinda weak and need to be proactive to maintain her spore. Equinox need to wait to press a button. I'd say saryn is harder, yet you claim the opposite?

8. Limits were made to Ember, yes i'm bringing it back because it's relevant here. Any suggestion made against saryn would get her like Ember. It's not like your stucked forever with a Saryn on your group is it ? Or you don't like to be unable to use weapons you're adding forma to level up? (Are you even at this point ?)

9. There are so many overpowered stuff after nukers. A beginner would never be able to shoot something if there's a profficient farmer in the game anyway. What are you hoping for ?

10. I'm pretty sure you can do that just fine with one button for starchart. Knowing about what you want to nerf would go a long way to get you more credible.

11. You need to stop farming Hydron and look at the game :)

il y a une heure, TeaHawk a dit :

1. Why? Just because a newcomer from well balanced competitive shooter would come and say so?
Warframe is a game about overpowered ancient technology, unlimited fearsome one-frame army if you wish. Being able to eliminate a huge nuber of enemies without engaging them directly is a core gampeplay. Even if you read the description of Saryn provided by Lotus:

Does the word "elusive" mean something for you? She's designed to be what she is — a perfect flawless killer with decent damage scaling.

 

2. Even? Do you know that Equinox's main gimmick is being half-dp-half-support? She's literally designed to be a combination of two. She's an exception. That is a bad example.

3. Here again you are lying. Playing Saryn on high levels (lvl. 120+) requires management, maneuvers self-preservation, and, of course a decent build with materials you've been collecting through out the game. You will not do well on ESO without a properly moded frame. You will simply die/run out of energy/loose your stacks.

4. Indeed, stock Saryn performs well on beginner levels (<40). It's normal, considering her role given by description of this frame. It's normal, considering her damage types.

5. Before going forward in this discussion I want to see a screenshot of you playing solo/no support on 8th room of ESO with Saryn doing exactly what you described: unstoppable elimination. The condition will be: no support frames in your team and no melee/staticor. If Saryn is as good as you describe her, 8 rooms of ESO without proper teammates and weapons should be a casual walk for you. As you said previously warframe is a time-killer. Hence, I suggest you sacrifice half-an-hour in order to bring up a viable proof of Saryn invincibility what will reanimate this discussion with new indisputable argument. Why do you think?

6. Let's resume: go on ESO with your Saryn. No support frames in your team. No aoe weapons in your inventory. Complete 8th room. Have much larger dps and kills than your teammates. Take screenshot of used build and inventory, as well as a proof of completion.

1. Yep, you're right.

2. Well I do, most of people here don't know the game.

3. Of course it does, they don't play Saryn though. They just "suffer" from her in low lvl defenses.

4. Ideally, Saryn should be terrible to LVL <80 to make those whiners happy...

5. Done that too, some don't even have her. 

6. We both know this will never happen ;)

il y a une heure, Ver1dian a dit :

So we nerf Saryn.
Then we nerf Volt
Then Mesa
Gara
Equinox...

So on and so forth, until your noob trap build of Rhino+Arca Plasmor finally manages to outdamage a DPS frame?

Do people not realize that if those frames could not outperform general gunplay there would be 0 reason to play them?

I would resume it like this. They do realize that, they don't care, they want to be competitive with the most awful loadout versus optimized saryns. That's most of the subject.

Or "makes the game too easy" well, saryn isn't the problem anyway. Warframes aren't even the problem. Those people have no idea what they're talking about. Expecting us who do know to get our gameplay destroyed.

[TeaHawk]

32 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

I would resume it like this. They do realize that, they don't care, they want to be competitive with the most awful loadout versus optimized saryns.

I have a couple of thoughts to add:

This game has a lot of hidden mechanics, non-linear progression and huge gap between veterans and beginners. I may understand frustration of a new player dealing with a well optimized veteran, or even another new player, who has come to meta. However, what really hurts me is that instead of learning the game some decide to grow willingfuly ignorant.
Instead of going forward, they're eager to drag everybody on their lows. Instead of asking for help with builds and advancing forward, they decide to change the game to fit their appetite for the challenge.

But the real challenge in this game is not clearing the map with 1000 perfect headshots while flying like a jet-fighter.

The real challenge here is progression, creativity and efficient management.

The real challenge starts when you find a new wonderful way of using your gear, but you always need more to reach perfection. The real challenge starts, when you discover the meaning of optimization. The real challenge starts when you begin to understand what every frame has its own role and a perfect way to use it. The real challenge starts when after hours of building you discover a flaw, that makes your rethink the whole concept. We real challenge starts when you understand what this game is about.
Don't work around it. Accept it, face it and go forward. If you don't like it —  you will never get everything this brilliant game has to share. That's just a matter of fact a cruel indisputable God-signed truth you have to acknowledge.

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[selig_fay]

Let's make Saryn unavailable for public and group play? It seems to me that we will not come to anything, because people just do not understand and do not listen to each other.

[AkyFenrir]

Il y a 1 heure, zhellon a dit :

Let's make Saryn unavailable for public and group play? It seems to me that we will not come to anything, because people just do not understand and do not listen to each other.

Yeah sure, why rushing to one side when you can balance an argument right ? There's no way i would accept this fake solution.

Let's be clear here just for you.

One side who don't know about the game want something.

The other group who know the game bring arguments.

They argue that the game should change to accomodate their own preference (gameplay/difficulty) and I say they should play something else if they want a different game, if they like the game there are ways to avoid nukes without being this extreme anyway.

You're not listening for people defending Saryn and nukers in general. Don't criticize people doing what you're doing yourself. 

[selig_fay]

30 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

You're not listening for people defending Saryn and nukers in general. Don't criticize people doing what you're doing yourself.

First, give us a sufficient opinion to consider. There was an opinion that Saryn is not so strong - I denied it with screenshots from the game. Now only the view is considered that players should be able to skip game modes with certain frames, because that's the point of the game (the point of the game is not to play. You hear yourself? ) Warframes must provide unique mechanics. Well, let this mechanic is scaling AOE damage. But I'm sorry, 50 meters. Don't you think that's a bit much? Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

I just do not see the point in this dispute, as opponents do not take into account any arguments, but only send to play alone. And if you think that I'm new to this game - you are mistaken. I'm a person who already has nothing to do and I played on nuke frames only in ESO, because ESO 8 waves is simply impossible to pass otherwise, as the game itself supports AOE damage, not manual killing. It's not even a challenge, because a lot depends not on how I play, but on how nice the map is generated.

Edited August 21, 2019 by zhellon

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

wow... thats... 0o

ember was a frame for high level content. you was able to survive and kill your enemies unless you get enough energy.

now you can only kill them to lvl 15... which is basically 3 planets of the whole system. thats shall be better? why? because a few people don't want her power?

the "rework" kills the frame. as already mentioned: how many embers do you see out there? 1 in 6 month playing? isn't exactly a prove of you "but ember is still good" don't you think?

now you want saryn become the next ember...

which next? equinox? oberon? whats than? 

cripple frame isn't the way.

just improve the damage system instead of killing frames, weapons and pressing all fun out of the game....

[selig_fay]

6 минут назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

wow... thats... 0o

ember was a frame for high level content. you was able to survive and kill your enemies unless you get enough energy.

now you can only kill them to lvl 15... which is basically 3 planets of the whole system. thats shall be better? why? because a few people don't want her power?

the "rework" kills the frame. as already mentioned: how many embers do you see out there? 1 in 6 month playing? isn't exactly a prove of you "but ember is still good" don't you think?

now you want saryn become the next ember...

which next? equinox? oberon? whats than?

cripple frame isn't the way.

just improve the damage system instead of killing frames, weapons and pressing all fun out of the game....

I didn't say ember was good, I said nothing had changed. When Ember was good at high-level content, this high level was 40-50, and sorties were still new. And Ember was never good against armor. I'm sure there are people who are really passionate about Ember and can build it against level sorties against enemies without armor. But it is not required because there is Saryn.

Edited August 21, 2019 by zhellon

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 13 minutes, zhellon a dit :

First, give us a sufficient opinion to consider. There was an opinion that Saryn is not so strong - I denied it with screenshots from the game. Now only the view is considered that players should be able to skip game modes with certain frames, because that's the point of the game (the point of the game is not to play. You hear yourself? ) Warframes must provide unique mechanics. Well, let this mechanic is scaling AOE damage. But I'm sorry, 50 meters. Don't you think that's a bit much? Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

I just do not see the point in this dispute, as opponents do not take into account any arguments, but only send to play alone. And if you think that I'm new to this game - you are mistaken. I'm a person who already has nothing to do and I played on nuke frames only in ESO, because ESO 8 waves is simply impossible to pass otherwise, as the game itself supports AOE damage, not manual killing. It's not even a challenge, because a lot depends not on how I play, but on how nice the map is generated.

I've done it multiple times. If you didn't read all the post and assumed my arguments are wrong it's not even debating. Exacty what i said before.

Going on this "skip" thingie is ridiculous, they're playing the game. And as I stated earlier, it's funny people keep complaining about nukers in defense and NEVER  complain about the Spy meta (Oh right, being afk there is fine i guess ?). Yes warframe must provide unique mechanics. What's the point of a warframe ultimate if you can do the same thing with a weapon ? You won't all aoe weapon gone too? You want melee gone ? Problem are not nukers. 

 

Oh yeah Ember. a very good CC warframe for endgame without CC, without range, without dps. Pretending Ember is totally or something that we should aspire too is soooo out of touch.

I think you don't know what you're talking about. The way you suggest ember is fine is a perfect proof for that. There are people who never learn mechanics outside of shooting and take build from internet. It's not how you now the game. 

You've nothing to do? How is it relevant ? You would have stuff appearing by magic if you get saryn nerfed ? (little spoiler no you won't). 

ESO can be done without nukers, you would need to be skilled for that, thing what you're going to do.

Can you explain how a mode designed for nukers is an argument against nukers ? 

People keep playing eso everyday by the way think about them ?

Yeah sure it's easy to find yourself excuses to go nuker whenever it benefits you and ask tho ruin them whenever you don't need nukers anymore.

Arguments you said ? oh no "opinion" makes sense

il y a 1 minute, (PS4)NewcastleDisease a dit :

just improve the damage system instead of killing frames, weapons and pressing all fun out of the game....

.they would have to think critically to get to that kind of demand. Seeing something and reacting to it is faster sadly.