Your opinion on adding anti-nuke enemies to the game.

[Jarriaga]

Some devstreams ago, Steve mentioned on a dev stream (Around PoE Remastered) that they were working on an enemy type with a special armor class that would only take melee damage. In case that idea was not scrapped, here are some implications:

1) Is that enemy type going to take ability damage? It would be trivialized by Saryn, Equinox and Mesa, making the melee focus pointless.

2) If not, and assuming they will NOT any take damage from abilities unless it's from a melee exalted weapons (Mesa Peacemaker deals 0 damage, Baruuk and Excal deal normal damage), them how bad will the community backlash be?

This is a similar conversation as to why Demolysts can not be fully stopped with crowd control abilities (Other than Magus Lockdown, which should be addressed with a cooldown in my opinion). Their sole purpose is to rush to Conduits in Disruption to destroy them, so making them susceptible to CC by fully stopping them with high duration would invalidate their design intention for the game mode. In this case, CC abilities took a hit since the game mode took priority and you can't go left and right at the same time. The Profit Taker, Exploiter Orb, Ropalolyst and Demolysts hint at DE going for anti-cheese enemy designs as a solution rather than directly nerfing nuke frames. 

How would you feel about an enemy you can not damage its health until its armor is drained first? Meta players would reply "My Redeemer deals 7 million damage, so it's pointless), but what if you could only drain its armor after a set number of melee hits irrespective of your damage output like 20 hits from melee before the armor is drained? It would serve multiple purposes like somewhat addressing map nuking, player's avoidance of melee, and how easy it is to kill enemies. 

I personally like the idea.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Lutesque]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

I personally like the idea.

So this where we are now....

How Unfortunate.... :(

[sleepychewbacca]

4 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So this where we are now....

How Unfortunate.... :(

Like most of your posts? :P 

Back on topic though, I do think more, mechanically diverse enemies would be an interesting addition. The Grineer Nox is already a very popular example of this, in that you need to know how to approach him before wiping him out faster than just spamming abilities. 

So i'm full in with OP's suggestion. Not necessarily armour alone, but a feature of the enemy that has to be interacted with, before moving on to wiping said enemy. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by sleepychewbacca

[Midas]

22 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Demolysts can not be fully stopped with crowd control abilities.

Magus Lockdown grants you that ability on any frame. 😉

Edited August 26, 2019 by Midas

[Loza03]

Partially. I'd prefer them for some of the nukes, and take other options for others.

Like, Blunts/Vector Shields and Shield Lancer shields being able to draw Peacemaker's aggro when in her reticule would be a good idea IMO, stuff like that. Other powers should get their limits built in, kind of like Baruuk's restraint. That'd give a bit more variety to powers, in that some are less restricted in what they can be used on but are instead restricted in how often they can be used to full effect.

There's evidence to suggest that more effort causes the brain to be more sensitive to reward or loss, which means that injecting a bit more effort into nuking or mass CC, as well as preventing the degree of Automation we can reach and maybe encouraging teamplay a bit more, will actually make the process more enjoyable.

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, Midas said:

Magus Lockdown grants you that ability on any frame. 😉

Hmmmmm..... can you do the same thing using the Proton Set ? 

[evilChair]

Yes. Make 'em aim.

[Jarriaga]

20 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So this where we are now....

How Unfortunate.... 😞

Care to elaborate?

4 minutes ago, Midas said:

Magus Lockdown grants you that ability on any frame. 😉

I was not aware of that. I think it it should be modified so a cooldown is applied to the Demolyst, or that they can use their random red nullifier pulse with them as well for consistency and to prevent cheesing them out. Still, that's off topic.

 

[ReaverKane]

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Partially. I'd prefer them for some of the nukes, and take other options for others.

Like, Blunts/Vector Shields and Shield Lancer shields being able to draw Peacemaker's aggro when in her reticule would be a good idea IMO, stuff like that. Other powers should get their limits built in, kind of like Baruuk's restraint. That'd give a bit more variety to powers, in that some are less restricted in what they can be used on but are instead restricted in how often they can be used to full effect.

There's evidence to suggest that more effort causes the brain to be more sensitive to reward or loss, which means that injecting a bit more effort into nuking or mass CC, as well as preventing the degree of Automation we can reach and maybe encouraging teamplay a bit more, will actually make the process more enjoyable.

But that also means they would need to beef up their rewards, because lets face it, Warframe is nice, but the grind is only tolerable because we have nukers. Otherwise farming the same map for the n^th time trying to get that one relic that you need to open a dozen of them because it's the rare drop... It's annoying to say the least, and yeah they want to make it annoying to sell some Prime Acesses... But there's a line between annoying and downright not fun. And i don't know if adding more "work" to the line up would be ok.
Not to mention that there's scaling issues, i mean, sure this is all fine and dandy on 20 waves, but on 60, 80? It becomes a bit less ok.
This is another issue, DE isn't really clear in what their goal is, if people are meant to go past the first C rotation, then they can't remove builds that trivialize those first 80 lvls, because that is the power level required for the 80-200 lvl enemies.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, ReaverKane said:

But that also means they would need to beef up their rewards, because lets face it, Warframe is nice, but the grind is only tolerable because we have nukers. Otherwise farming the same map for the n^th time trying to get that one relic that you need to open a dozen of them because it's the rare drop... It's annoying to say the least, and yeah they want to make it annoying to sell some Prime Acesses... But there's a line between annoying and downright not fun. And i don't know if adding more "work" to the line up would be ok.
Not to mention that there's scaling issues, i mean, sure this is all fine and dandy on 20 waves, but on 60, 80? It becomes a bit less ok.
This is another issue, DE isn't really clear in what their goal is, if people are meant to go past the first C rotation, then they can't remove builds that trivialize those first 80 lvls, because that is the power level required for the 80-200 lvl enemies.

Not really? For one, there's more intrinsic reward for playing as I mentioned. And for another, I'm not saying throw the nukes out the window entirely, just make them so you actually have to put some effort into them.

 

Plus DE have said repeatedly that, no, they aren't all that fond of people going super long-term, so that elements not really much of an issue. They've consistently had the max base level be 100 thus far for quite some time.

[ReaverKane]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Not really? For one, there's more intrinsic reward for playing as I mentioned. And for another, I'm not saying throw the nukes out the window entirely, just make them so you actually have to put some effort into them.

 

Plus DE have said repeatedly that, no, they aren't all that fond of people going super long-term, so that elements not really much of an issue. They've consistently had the max base level be 100 thus far for quite some time.

Intrinsic rewards go out the window after the 10th time doing the exact same thing. Sorry...
DE might have said that (i never saw such announcement), but then again, Arbitrations, and the fact that every single new game mode added in the last 4 years was an endless mode,  kind of seem to indicate otherwise?

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, ReaverKane said:

Intrinsic rewards go out the window after the 10th time doing the exact same thing. Sorry...
DE might have said that (i never saw such announcement), but then again, Arbitrations, and the fact that every single new game mode added in the last 4 years was an endless mode,  kind of seem to indicate otherwise?

None of the bounties or bosses are endless and Railjack won't be endless, so...

And, no, they don't really, unless you don't actually really enjoy the game in the first place. People still like playing the old classics after all, and people play stuff like DMC for hundreds of hours. Intrinsically rewarding gameplay will remain so, otherwise it was just a novelty.

[ReaverKane]

Just now, Loza03 said:

None of the bounties or bosses are endless and Railjack won't be endless, so...

And, no, they don't really, unless you don't actually really enjoy the game in the first place. People still like playing the old classics after all, and people play stuff like DMC for hundreds of hours. Intrinsically rewarding gameplay will remain so, otherwise it was just a novelty.

Bosses aren't a new game mode, but yeah bounties are the exception. I'll give you that, but you have Bounties vs Arbitration, Defection and Disruption... So 3/4 of the new game modes they added are endless...

People go back to those games for one of a few reasons, they haven't played it a while and feel nostalgia, they wanna try something new at that, or they are trying to beat their scores, etc.
No one does the same thing over and over just for doing it, there's always an extrinsic reward to motivate them, they wanna get better at it, they want to break a record, they want to get that item at the end. No one does the same thing 100 times in a day for giggles, sorry.
And in warframe, there's only one single motivator, the rewards at the end. So after a few runs, that's the only thing motivating anyone to keep doing anything there, that's why everyone has that Nightwave tunnel vision now... It's basic human nature, you can try to deny it, but even monks and priests get a woody now and again!

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, ReaverKane said:

People go back to those games for one of a few reasons, they haven't played it a while and feel nostalgia, they wanna try something new at that, or they are trying to beat their scores, etc.
No one does the same thing over and over just for doing it, there's always an extrinsic reward to motivate them, they wanna get better at it, they want to break a record, they want to get that item at the end. No one does the same thing 100 times in a day for giggles, sorry.

Let me put this in perspective.

You know how people complain that the Sacrifice and cinematic quests are just 45 minutes of content?

The entirety of the first Megaman game as well as 2 fits into that time. Yet people have hundreds of hours playing them. I'm pretty sure it's not just what you say at that point. They must be doing something right.

5 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

And in warframe, there's only one single motivator, the rewards at the end. So after a few runs, that's the only thing motivating anyone to keep doing anything there, that's why everyone has that Nightwave tunnel vision now... It's basic human nature, you can try to deny it, but even monks and priests get a woody now and again!

And that's the problem. A bunch of people don't play Warframe because they enjoy it, they play it to get stuff.

Extrinsic rewards should be the breadcrumbs that lead you to the game, not the game itself. (Plus people do the deed and thus get woodys because it feels good. Intrinsic reward.)

9 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Bosses aren't a new game mode, but yeah bounties are the exception. I'll give you that, but you have Bounties vs Arbitration, Defection and Disruption... So 3/4 of the new game modes they added are endless...

Arbitrations were added to shut those people up remember and aren't really a new gamemode, just variations on existing ones.

50% of the actually new gameplay, plus what Railjack is shaping up to be...

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

2) If not, and assuming they will NOT any take damage from abilities unless it's from a melee exalted weapons (Mesa Peacemaker deals 0 damage, Baruuk and Excal deal normal damage), them how bad will the community backlash be?

Sooo magically Baruuk and Excal just get a pass.....

Now normally I don't do this because for the most part I think it's dumb buuut when you're making exceptions for your own proposed limitations I can't help but wonder....Oh hey look your Profile says that Valkyr Prime (a melee oriented Exalted user) is 25% of your playtime.... hmmmmmmmm~

Also can we stop pretending Excals exalted blade is Melee? It's about as Melee as the Fluctus. 

 

 

[(NSW)Edcaous]

 

58 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Like, Blunts/Vector Shields and Shield Lancer shields being able to draw Peacemaker's aggro when in her reticule would be a good idea IMO, stuff like that. Other powers should get their limits built in, kind of like Baruuk's restraint. That'd give a bit more variety to powers, in that some are less restricted in what they can be used on but are instead restricted in how often they can be used to full effect.

This is a very good idea. I support this.

[WoodedSkate89]

Would be an interesting counter to people like saryn and volt. And instead of just blanket nerfing saryn and volt, give them a counter. (even something like adding more bombards, nox's, and special corpus units would do the trick)

[844448]

You guys want some popcorn for upcoming threads where people complain because they can't wipe this anti nuke enemies with a button press?

[Raqiya]

Is the idea that foes will have a second health bar which has to be depleted with our weaponry (Primary,  Secondary and melee) before they can be affected by warframe abilities? 

Edit: similar to nullifiers but without the bubble? 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Raqiya

[Uhkretor]

... Turn everyone into Kuva Leeches? Hell yeah.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Sooo magically Baruuk and Excal just get a pass.....

Now normally I don't do this because for the most part I think it's dumb buuut when you're making exceptions for your own proposed limitations I can't help but wonder....Oh hey look your Profile says that Valkyr Prime (a melee oriented Exalted user) is 25% of your playtime.... hmmmmmmmm~

Also can we stop pretending Excals exalted blade is Melee? It's about as Melee as the Fluctus. 

 

 

Magically? Their exalted weapons are melee type. DE can further tune this up by requiring for the exalted weapon itself to contact the enemy as opposed to the energy waves in order to damage them. There's even a precedent for this in Excal's exalted blade waves not adding to his melee combo counter, but actual hits from the blade do.  

Also, if you are going to stalk my personal profile in order to attempt to invalidate my suggestions by implying an underlying vested interest (Instead of addressing the topic itself), at least research my posting history. I moved on to Khora and abandoned Valkyr more than a year ago, and she's currently at 24% usage.

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Jarriaga]

28 minutes ago, Raqiya said:

Is the idea that foes will have a second health bar which has to be depleted with our weaponry (Primary,  Secondary and melee) before they can be affected by warframe abilities? 

Edit: similar to nullifiers but without the bubble? 

I'm afraid Steve has not provided more information on this and has never commended on it after that one time, so I can only speculate about the implementation if it wasn't already discarded and abandoned. I have reached out to him on Twitter and posted the question in dev stream threads but no answer so far.

Indeed, what comes to mind works like a nullifier bubble that only takes melee damage (In concept).

Edited August 26, 2019 by Jarriaga

[WoodedSkate89]

33 minutes ago, 844448 said:

You guys want some popcorn for upcoming threads where people complain because they can't wipe this anti nuke enemies with a button press?

That will be the new "rework rivens" posts. Now it'll be "remove anti-nuke enemies"

[kuciol]

In my opinion they should just make every single ability in game be limited by walls. That alone would solve most issues. No more whole map nuking but you still keep room nuking and you do not F..k over less powerfull frames that also happen to use nuking abilities like Mag for example. Hey and Ember wont feel so bad compared to others. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by kuciol

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

laughs manically in recruit chat