Ogris & the upcoming Kuva Ogris; Why the underlying mechanics of the Ogris itself need an overhaul

[Sdric]

 Ogris, Torid  and Tonkor try to fulfill the rocket/grenade launcher fantasy, with the Torid & Tonkor being more of a grenade launcher and the Ogris being more of a rocket launcher. I'll exclude the Tonkor for now as closest to viable of the three.

 

Both, Torid and Ogris, however are status based.

• The Torid - For the Torid is very much makes sense - it's procs synergize very well with status builds. Sadly it suffer from some poor QoL; a low magazine when you'll usually need around 3 projectiles minimum to get things rolling. Bad flight speed making its delivery unreliable. Some minor changes, could make it viable again, though.

• The Ogris (part I) - is a mess. It's a status based weapon with low RoF in addition to a charge trigger that result in a VERY low status proc frequency. In addition it's Blast base damage type synergizes poorly with status builds as it's a status that does not benefit from frequent proc. Being channeled into one damage type also leads to a high frequency of appearance, even if modded for another status. Overall its hole concept is BAD for a status weapon and only works in a very limited selection of frames, a very specific level range and a God tier status riven against enemies vulnerable to both Gas and Toxin.

• The Tonkor - is a crit damage focused grenade launcher, it's possibly even more of a counterpart to the Torid than the Ogris when it comes to means of delivery. It used to be a very popular weapon until nerfed into the ground. It's no really that far off, but the minimum explosion distance can make it awkward to use at times. Crit damage leads to some impressive numbers, even against level 80 enemies. The upcoming Exilus mod changes in addition to the upcoming Kuva Tonkor varient are likely going to get it back on its feet.

• The Ogris (part II) - the Ogris now has to find its own niche somewhere between those two. As the two weapons are both more grenade than rocket launchers, being the token rocket launcher is more than likely the best route to go. So, what do we expect from a rocket launcher?... MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS!
  • I've explained before why status stats are wasted on the Ogris for multiple reasons, so the question is - what stats would it need to fulfill the power fantasy of big tasty numbers? We all now that it's a rhetorical question: It needs improved crit scaling. That's the only real way to stay relevant at Kuva Flood / Arbitration level unless you can deliver a massive amount of corrosive procs in quick succession which does NOT work for the Ogris.
  • So, what else does it need? A trigger type change. There isn't a real reason for it, but my subjective reason which many people seem to share is that charge weapons are often really, really unfun. If it's on a weapon with massive self damage it's not only unfun, but also awkward to charge until that charge is right in your face and the lowest of low enemies suddenly becomes the worst of foes, right after your own weapon when self damage is a part of the equation. Thus a trigger type change is needed. Changing trigger directly however would result in a DPS increase affecting Bombards. That's something we'd all like to see, right? no So, a RoF decrease might keep overall Bombard DPS the same, while making the weapon by far more comfortable to use still.

The upcoming Kuva Ogris might help with the unfortunate base damage type, with just a little QOL change we might even be willing to accept the mess that is Cautious Shot and end up with a really great set of launchers!

 

(TL;DR) To sum my suggested changes up:

 

• Ogris:
  • Fire Rate reduced by 25%
  • Trigger changed to Semi-Auto (from charge).
    • More comfortable usage, making it feel like a rocket launcher (which it is) rather than a worse Lenz.
    • RoF nerf keeps DPS roughly the same for Bombards.
  • Status Chance 35% -> 5%, Crit Chance 5% -> 25%
    • The current Ogris has a weird design, it's a rocket launcher (which is usually high upfront damage), but it's lack of crit fails to fulfill the fantasy while status builds still feel unsatisfying. That's a role of a status launcher is something the Torid should fill instead (particularly as it has the better base damage type for it!).

 

• Torid:
  • Flight Speed increased by 66%
    • The low projectile speed makes this weapon too short-ranged to be useful in many situations.
  • Magazine size increased by 3.
    • Makes it scale better into high level content where usually multiple projectiles are needed to kill.
  • Trigger type: Semi -> Automatic.
    • The Torid is a status based launcher, but for doing Gas or Corrosive builds it usually requires multiple hits to really get the conditions rolling. This change is supposed to make getting those stacks (/continuous fire) a little bit more comfortable.

 

• Tonkor:
  • Let's chill and wait for Kuva Tonkor + Weapon Exilus slots.

 

Note that the suggested changes have the Kuva variants in mind and might undershoot a bit for the normal variants.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Sdric
Formatting

[NinjaZeku]

29 minutes ago, Sdric said:

Status Chance 35% -> 5%, Crit Chance 5% -> 25%

No. Just no.

If you want a Crit Launcher, use Lenz or Acceltra.
If you want a semi-auto Launcher with an annoyingly unreliable Crit Chance outside of Riven help, use Secura Penta.

Leave my poor ol' (not-even-God-Riven'd) Gas Ogris alone. Please.

[AlphaPHENIX]

As someone with a +Status ; +Damage ; +Damage to Grineer ; -Magazine size Riven - 100% Status Gas build Ogris, I may be biased, but am not in agreement with killing the Status of Ogris.

Here's a novel idea. Why can't we for once have a weapon, that reaches the damage numbers of what something else may do with crits, without actually critting? Keep the Ogris able to reach 100% Status, bring the Crit Chance down even lower and multiply the base damage. 
But Adarza kavats! - Tenno 26 000 000
Oh please. Like we don't have more broken things in the game. What would one more do to the currently unexistant balance?_{Also the Nukor exists} 

Also the Orgris's fire mode was changed briefly, some hot-fixes ago...felt wierd...just plain wierd. I can't even describe that as bad or good, or anything in between...it just didn't feel right.

[KirukaChan]

If Ogris' status, which can reach 100% without a Riven, got nerfed and replaced with 25% crit which cannot reach 100% without a Riven, I'd have even less reason to use it than I do now.

I absolutely agree with the trigger type change though. I think charge trigger should only exist on weapons that can fire uncharged shots too.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

3 hours ago, Sdric said:

Ogris:

• Fire Rate reduced by 25%
• Trigger changed to Semi-Auto (from charge).
  • More comfortable usage, making it feel like a rocket launcher (which it is) rather than a worse Lenz.
  • RoF nerf keeps DPS roughly the same for Bombards.
• Status Chance 35% -> 5%, Crit Chance 5% -> 25%
  • The current Ogris has a weird design, it's a rocket launcher (which is usually high upfront damage), but it's lack of crit fails to fulfill the fantasy while status builds still feel unsatisfying. That's a role of a status launcher is something the Torid should fill instead (particularly as it has the better base damage type for it!).

Crit means accuracy - headshots and the like. The Ogris projectile does not often get headshots either.

You're using crit to boost the damage, and I think that's wrong - it should be a status weapon with almost no crit.

The Ogris should just have massive up-front damage: 1600 blast for the explosion, 1000 impact + 1000 blast for the projectile.

Expand the radius to 10m, but have the damage fall off from 4m so that an enemy at exactly 10m gets about 100 damage (but still the same proc chance).

If you get hit by this pain to fire, low ammo, self damage specialist weapon it should just hurt. It shouldn't be about stripping one target's armour, but about proc'ing an entire room at once.

[Sdric]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb NinjaZeku:

No. Just no.

If you want a Crit Launcher, use Lenz or Acceltra.
If you want a semi-auto Launcher with an annoyingly unreliable Crit Chance outside of Riven help, use Secura Penta.

Leave my poor ol' (not-even-God-Riven'd) Gas Ogris alone. Please.

So, how often do you use your "awesome Gas Ogris", because frankly, I can't recall the last time I've seen anybody in a pub post level 40 use an Ogris in the last 2000 hours of playtime. The one argument I hear for keeping the Ogris as it is "but my Gas" build, which then however nobody proceeds to use because it's objectively worse than nearly every AoE alternative due to how limited it is. 

I haven't seen a single person "in the wild" who actually went through with this.

As it stands the Ogris is a weapon "for show" and some Simulacrum best-case scenario theory crafting. I know people tend to get to be defensive if confronted so directly, but please, be honest - how frequently do you actually use it? I just can't see any empirical evidence that anybody actually frequent this playstyle even remotely.

[Sdric]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb (XB1)KayAitch:

Crit means accuracy - headshots and the like. The Ogris projectile does not often get headshots either.

You're using crit to boost the damage, and I think that's wrong - it should be a status weapon with almost no crit.

The Ogris should just have massive up-front damage: 1600 blast for the explosion, 1000 impact + 1000 blast for the projectile.

Expand the radius to 10m, but have the damage fall off from 4m so that an enemy at exactly 10m gets about 100 damage (but still the same proc chance).

If you get hit by this pain to fire, low ammo, self damage specialist weapon it should just hurt. It shouldn't be about stripping one target's armour, but about proc'ing an entire room at once.

Crit is first and foremost a damage modifier. It benefits from crit but it surely not limited to it Tonkor, Lenz or Ignis are some extreme examples against it. Even the Acceltron is considering how much it sprays, not to mention crit based shotguns like the Corinth or the Pyrana, then there's the popularity of the Heavy Calbier for further modifying crit as evidence against the need for accuracy.

[Sdric]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb AlphaPHENIX:

As someone with a +Status ; +Damage ; +Damage to Grineer ; -Magazine size Riven - 100% Status Gas build Ogris, I may be biased, but am not in agreement with killing the Status of Ogris.

Here's a novel idea. Why can't we for once have a weapon, that reaches the damage numbers of what something else may do with crits, without actually critting? Keep the Ogris able to reach 100% Status, bring the Crit Chance down even lower and multiply the base damage. 
But Adarza kavats! - Tenno 26 000 000
Oh please. Like we don't have more broken things in the game. What would one more do to the currently unexistant balance?_{Also the Nukor exists} 

Also the Orgris's fire mode was changed briefly, some hot-fixes ago...felt wierd...just plain wierd. I can't even describe that as bad or good, or anything in between...it just didn't feel right.

Cyanex would be an example for that. It's popularity instantly got responded to with dispo nerfs, though.

[TylerFreeman]

Yes to crit.

I want more reasons to bring it out of the dusty storage bin.

[NinjaZeku]

46 minutes ago, Sdric said:

So, how often do you use your "awesome Gas Ogris"

I never said it's an awesome weapon, Ogris can easily stand to get buffed 😛

But I've used it quite regularly on the Plains / Vallis, not least to clear out (T5 Bounty) Dropships in a single shot, that's always fun,
and raining down death from above in Archwing against enemy clusters on the ground, mmh, so good.

I also like it in combination with e.g. Khora's Ensnare / Larva Burst Nidus / Vauban, or anything CC really,
the double whammy of Gas proc and Nightwatch Napalm Heat DOTs is again just entertaining (and decently effective, to boot).

As unreliable as the Profile stats are, my Ogris currently sits at 3.3% used and 61.1k kills, FWIW
(which interestingly enough, is right between Tonkor at 3.1% / 51.8k and Secura Penta at 4.2% / 68.5k, woo AoE damage).

Edited October 6, 2019 by NinjaZeku

[(PSN)Ragology]

Where did you hear about the kuva ogris? Ogris is one of my favorite weapons.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

11 hours ago, Sdric said:

Crit is first and foremost a damage modifier

Crit is a dice roll with a skill modifier: if you get lucky then more damage, headshots to improve that.

You're left with an Ogris that sometimes does decent damage, if you're lucky, but that you can't get headshots with.

On a rapid fire weapon this doesn't matter - crit is just the proportion of enhanced shots.

On the Ogris this would just be annoying.

It doesn't need lucky bonus damage. It needs base damage.

[Test-995]

I mean, you could increase fire rate of it, giving free 25% crit chance, keep status, and make it semi-auto without getting power creep...

[Tiltskillet]

Quote

Status Chance 35% -> 5%, Crit Chance 5% -> 25%

I don't use the Ogris, but i think it's generally poor form to flip an established weapon from entirely status to entirely crit, or vice versa.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

If only my ogris can proc two status per hit rather than looking at the stats to determine which is higher. Add to the fact that heat procs are going to be changed to strip armor, we might have a fun weapon now.

[(PSN)Quantaminum]

Minimum explosion distance was a great change to Tonkor.

Like the Acceltra, it's probably there so you don't accidentally kill yourself.

[AlphaPHENIX]

22 hours ago, Sdric said:

Cyanex would be an example for that. It's popularity instantly got responded to with dispo nerfs, though.

Example to which part of my post exactly? Sorry, I didn't get the point.

[AlphaPHENIX]

22 hours ago, Sdric said:

As it stands the Ogris is a weapon "for show" and some Simulacrum best-case scenario theory crafting. I know people tend to get to be defensive if confronted so directly, but please, be honest - how frequently do you actually use it? I just can't see any empirical evidence that anybody actually frequent this playstyle even remotely.

Not often.
However, I also don't frequently change up my arsenal these days, simply don't feel the need to.
Make sure my companion is equipped (because of Animal Instinct addiction), roll with x frame and y weapons for weeks, get bored or switch to newly added ones, repeat.
So I don't always use my Ogris, but I don't always use my Buzlok, or my Paris Prime; can't even remember the last time I as little as looked at my Dex Sybaris.

[Madway7]

On 2019-10-06 at 11:22 AM, Sdric said:

Ogris:

• Fire Rate reduced by 25%
• Trigger changed to Semi-Auto (from charge).
  • More comfortable usage, making it feel like a rocket launcher (which it is) rather than a worse Lenz.
  • RoF nerf keeps DPS roughly the same for Bombards.
• Status Chance 35% -> 5%, Crit Chance 5% -> 25%
  • The current Ogris has a weird design, it's a rocket launcher (which is usually high upfront damage), but it's lack of crit fails to fulfill the fantasy while status builds still feel unsatisfying. That's a role of a status launcher is something the Torid should fill instead (particularly as it has the better base damage type for it!).

Imo it could be the only primary weapon with exactly 40% base crit chance (100% with just point strike)

The status chance shouldnt be nerfed that far, maybe to 15-20%

And maybe give it about 0.8 fire rate

 

On 2019-10-06 at 8:26 PM, (PS4)Ragology said:

Where did you hear about the kuva ogris? Ogris is one of my favorite weapons.

Devstream 131, shows up for 1 second.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Madway7

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I love Ogris as is.

[Dr.Membrane]

I realy love rocked launchers and since i´am boored of WF i started to make a little Rollplay build. I wanted to make a heavy unit with raw damage output and also make the frame looking like that, so i thought the best visual for that job would be a grineer based outfit. So i choose Atlas(Prime now), Ogris, Brakk and Furax, for all of them i have a god riven to make it viable. All in all it does ok´ish damage and i kill everything over Lv.120+ which is ok, since the reward didnt scale it wont make sense to go further in the most cases (for any mission that goes above that i choose another loadout and build ofc that can handle higher or extrem high levels)

I have now over 200k kills on the Ogris with an perfect riven for it and i can tell its ...ok. When you equip a kavat and 2 Arcane Avenger you can get a feeling how a ogris could work with crits... Its a way to much work to do so, to be honest. But still at this point i wont add base crit.chance anymore, for that reason i would see forward to the Kuva Ogris and let this thing to be new Crit Ogris. 

Some Ideas for strengthen the Ogris:
Iff we want to make the old Stat Ogris to be more viable we could just combine the most worst element (explosion 700dmg) with the most powerfull physical damage (slash +-300dmg for example). It could work similar like the zaars alt fire, the rocket burst in 10 shrapnels on impact and only hit targets in explosion radius (10 shrapnels for each rocked+ multishot)which adds the slash damage and adds a proc based on the status chance.

Another idea would be that the explosion element gets an rework and has the abbility to ignore 30% of armor or ignors 30% of damage reduction (+- % it depands).
Or the explosion proc has a mild form of "Condition Overload" like: for each element proc on the enemy the gun does 10% more damage.

[000l000]

Le 06/10/2019 à 21:29, Sdric a dit :

Cyanex would be an example for that. It's popularity instantly got responded to with dispo nerfs, though.

The main difference between Cyanex and any Ogris is that it has innate gas and apply tons of procs at once, thus making any corrosive build highly viable.

Slow firing mostly status weapons such as Ogris are worthless against heavily armoured enemies though, someone mentioned Penta Secura which is a good example of what performs well at higher levels. Even with a gas build, you can build a Hunter munition launcher with enough critical, which greatly helps with such enemies.

I would wait for heat procs rework though cause Nightwatch Napalm applies heat procs, maybe this would help the Ogris against high level Grineers. Anyway, i often read people asking for status only slow firing weapons and i still don't get why, slow firing status only weapons are the worst ever.

[(XBOX)xSeeMyEvilx]

i have 3 god roll as of now for my ogris an I fell in love with it. it not over power in any mean but the way you use it can be. it a room clearer an can reach 17 m blast range with no fall off in damage. I think it status chance is fine were it is. but I would like to see a small boost to it grit game I feel it show be able to do both some what well. there are lot of hybrid weapon out there that just skill faster so I dont think a crit boost would break it. I have tested it with orange crit an my other weapon can still kill faster it for the chaos an wide range it has. in long run I noticed that evin when it fall off I keep the dmg lead as the dmg really adds up over time in long run an hitting an stun lucking enemy in fire from it Nightwatch Napalm dealing great dmg over time. evin to enemy that have great resistance.   at the end of the day all I belive it need to be great is a crit boost. an I would not say no to dmg. but im trying to keep is safe from getting it disposition destroyed. I feel make other thing that work for it would go a long way as will like furax wraith mode Amalgam furax body count. 20% blast radisu is great on ogris that dont have fall off damage like other launchers.  so plz consider keeping it as is. but boots it. or make a new one like the kuva ogirs witch im looking forward too it.  sorry for poor grammer