Slide attack macro abuse needs to be looked at

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Well it should be gone when melee 3.0 hits in 2030.

Next instance of the Melee update is this month (or early next), part of the mainline update with Grendel, the Reworks for Ember and Vauban, and so on. Confirmed on the most recent DevStream. This one is the Stance animation and input overhaul, and they even mentioned the Combo Counter system rework and Melee Stat rework is going to be included in that. I think they're able to move a lot faster with it now that they're implementing this strange data-blade thing that will replace our melee finishers (so that DE only need to design a melee finisher per enemy type instead of designing one per enemy per melee weapon type).

Just thought I should put that here, in case people had missed the stream and were thinking nothing was happening for years. Or were being sarcastic and hoping for upvotes from single line 'zinger' comments.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

and everything you said there is accurate.... but what of it? what is the significance of it.
i don't think there is any.

The significance is that people can get more out of the game by not really playing it by using something that wasnt intended for them to begin with.

 

[Ramflare]

On 2019-10-14 at 4:35 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

protip:

you actually don't want the game perfectly balanced, you just think you do.  instead you want your play style to be the most viable, and nobody really cares about your wants specifically.

additionally, kill slide macro and people will just use the next most effective room nuke, or whatever new thing they invent because a large chunk of vet players get to that point because they are efficient players, meaning, they will very often choose the most efficient method to do a task, and if your method isn't the most efficient (and if it's run and gun, it never will be), then you will always be frustrated by more powerful players who will vastly outperform you, so your task would be to either choose one of the three options above, or git gud, and learn the more efficient methods at play as the flavor of the week.  You will always be frustrated by players that are just more powerful than you if you continue with your current attitude.  I suggest you get over it.  No, you don't get to be as powerful as people with 5K+ in mission hours, sorry, you didn't earn that yet.  this will continue to be a problem until such time as de sees it fit to actually produce endgame content that is gated to players that are already 1 man armies and I would recommend against holding your breath for that.

Haha That's not a tip, it's a feeble attempt at putting words in my mouth. I want a relatively level playing field, at least a good variety of legitimate tactics at the top tier so it's not "get a whip or GTFO". You seem to be implying that it takes 5k hours to get a couple mods & a whip. That's my entire point, it's not hard it's lazy and a tactic that someone can use 50 hours in. They didn't earn that power, mostly I just think it's sad they've gotten to the point where they're not even playing anymore, they  must be bored out of their minds.

I'm fine with people using the most efficient option when it doesn't rely on cheese and machine assistance, I've seen whip spammers with mastery in the 10s regularly outpace players in their 20s using the likes of saryn. By your own emphasis on in-game hours doesn't that seem a tad unfair?

[Ramflare]

On 2019-10-13 at 4:51 PM, BananaSlamJamma said:

Putting in zero effort and getting better results? Have you not played like 99% of this game? That literally describes every frame and weapon. Its called power creep and its not caused by people spinning in circles with a whip. Its solely on the fault of DE for introducing so much #*!%ing power creep, get off your high horse. Saryn takes 0 effort, Equinox takes zero effort, so does Wukong, Mirage, Chroma, Ember, Trinity, etc. If that is your major gripe about people getting rewarded for doing nothing then this game isnt for you.

So an entire game isn't for me because a couple of items massively outpace 95% of the gear in the game? My major gripe, as indicated by the title of this thread is primarily using machine assistance to achieve results that aren't feasible for a typical player to maintain without serious injury. The problem with most of your examples is unlike whip spam they either; don't scale to high levels, are limited by line of sight or rely on a players movement speed. Slide attacks are possibly quicker than bullet jumps, add in automation and you've got something vastly more powerful than the competition, capable of covering a larger area in the same time. Even by warframe's standards, it's absurd.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Ramflare

[Steel_Rook]

On 2019-10-15 at 5:17 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

overall it's just a bs complaint by players that want everyone to play their way, and not the way they want to play... without realizing that in a pug, they don't control that.  they instead demand everyone caters to them, and it's all crybaby nonsense.

I hope you realise that you're covering the stereotypical Internet Tough Guy talking points, including epithets here. The complaint is bullS#&$, people are crybabies, etc. I'm genuinely surprised the word "entitled" didn't show up at any point. Besides, you undermine your own argument. If you go to pick-up groups to either carry or lose, then there wouldn't be this purported overwhelming number of people who went there to BE carried.

And yes, the ultimate solution is to simply solo, which is what I do. However, having to choose between actually playing the game and actually teaming with other people because the two are incompatible is not a good look for a purported multiplayer game. Moreover, if your central claim that many people exist who are perfectly happy to have the game played for them is true, then that speaks to fundamental issues with the core game inspiring people to resent playing it and by extension welcome means of progressing without doing so.

I default back to what I said: As with most Live Service games, this game's community seems made up predominantly of burnt-out players who don't enjoy the core game loop but are hooked on the Skinner box and so compelled to progress regardless. That right there would be a massive design red flag, if it weren't status quo for the industry.

[Klokwerkaos]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I hope you realise that you're covering the stereotypical Internet Tough Guy talking points, including epithets here. The complaint is bullS#&$, people are crybabies, etc. I'm genuinely surprised the word "entitled" didn't show up at any point. Besides, you undermine your own argument. If you go to pick-up groups to either carry or lose, then there wouldn't be this purported overwhelming number of people who went there to BE carried.

And yes, the ultimate solution is to simply solo, which is what I do. However, having to choose between actually playing the game and actually teaming with other people because the two are incompatible is not a good look for a purported multiplayer game. Moreover, if your central claim that many people exist who are perfectly happy to have the game played for them is true, then that speaks to fundamental issues with the core game inspiring people to resent playing it and by extension welcome means of progressing without doing so.

I default back to what I said: As with most Live Service games, this game's community seems made up predominantly of burnt-out players who don't enjoy the core game loop but are hooked on the Skinner box and so compelled to progress regardless. That right there would be a massive design red flag, if it weren't status quo for the industry.

1 )  game isn't multiplayer, it's multiplayer AND solo from the ground up.  see all dev streams for the last forever.  It's meant to be played both ways to provide options for players that have issues with one or the other so they can find and tailor their own preferred experience which is going to innately have trade offs.  this is a very important distinction.

2) you took away the wrong philosophical lesson of go to carry or go to fail.  the point is that you need to plan ahead so that the other players are either planned as part of your squad (you set it up ahead of time) or, that the composition, and even if there are any at all who zone in, is completely irrelevant, leechers or not.  Do that and you'll significantly care a lot less what other players do and don't do in pugs.

3) internet tough guy?  sure, why not, whatever... yes, it is entitled and whiney behavior.  It's a free game you are playing with random strangers on the internet, the world doesn't revolve around you, put up and deal, or stfu, or be branded a crybaby.  is that upsetting to someone's feelies?  i sure hope so, and I hope it hurts their feels enough to either grow the F up, or quit, or at least shut up about it.  It's one thing man if someone's like "hey, I'm trying to do X, could you give me a little space with the slide" and be like "sure, cool" or alternately "no, screw you, I do what I want!" obviously one of those is the right response and the other one is the jerk response, but the thing is, as a player, at any power level, you're going to have to plan to get a mix of both reactions and realize that some people, give literally zero F's about you and that's just too bad, welcome to the real world and the internet.  Nobody is required to give any F's about your feelings, your good time and your experience, and many people won't and worse, will be additively exploitative and antagonistic if they sense the slightest hint of weakness.  Obviously those people aren't fun to game with, but guess what?  It's a pug.  you get what you get and that's either part of your calculated risk when you join a pug or it isn't and either way the responsibility for your good time is your personal adult responsibility alone.









 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[-Milmo-]

On 2019-10-15 at 11:30 AM, Ramflare said:

So an entire game isn't for me because a couple of items massively outpace 95% of the gear in the game? My major gripe, as indicated by the title of this thread is primarily using machine assistance to achieve results that aren't feasible for a typical player to maintain without serious injury. The problem with most of your examples is unlike whip spam they either; don't scale to high levels, are limited by line of sight or rely on a players movement speed. Slide attacks are possibly quicker than bullet jumps, add in automation and you've got something vastly more powerful than the competition, capable of covering a larger area in the same time. Even by warframe's standards, it's absurd.

Dude go play solo I don't know what to tell you. There are plenty of abilities that can easily outpace some dumb dumb using a slide attack macro. There can be a whole plethora of reasons for why they use a macro such as convenience or not straining ones hands. And yeah, there are a relatively small amount of gear that outpace the majority, its called power creep and once again blame DE for literally doing nothing about it except for making the problem worse. I will say it again, this game is not for you if that is a problem. DE have demonstrated multiple times that they literally do not care about power creep and continue to trivialize any "challenge" that there is in this game. Also on another note, I don't seem to understand why you care so much about what other people do in a PvE game, its not like you are being hindered in anyway. They aren't cheating or exploiting any bugs, DE permits this. Once again, if you do not like this, then simply stop playing. I agree, machine assistance does assist players, but with a game with this much power creep I don't really see that much of a difference between someone manually spinning with a whip killing everything vs someone using a macro to spin to kill everything. The end result is still the same.

[Ramflare]

2 hours ago, BananaSlamJamma said:

Dude go play solo I don't know what to tell you. There are plenty of abilities that can easily outpace some dumb dumb using a slide attack macro. There can be a whole plethora of reasons for why they use a macro such as convenience or not straining ones hands. And yeah, there are a relatively small amount of gear that outpace the majority, its called power creep and once again blame DE for literally doing nothing about it except for making the problem worse. I will say it again, this game is not for you if that is a problem. DE have demonstrated multiple times that they literally do not care about power creep and continue to trivialize any "challenge" that there is in this game. Also on another note, I don't seem to understand why you care so much about what other people do in a PvE game, its not like you are being hindered in anyway. They aren't cheating or exploiting any bugs, DE permits this. Once again, if you do not like this, then simply stop playing. I agree, machine assistance does assist players, but with a game with this much power creep I don't really see that much of a difference between someone manually spinning with a whip killing everything vs someone using a macro to spin to kill everything. The end result is still the same.

Yeah I get it, this isn't such a big issue that I'm going to quit. I personally consider macros to be exploits unless an individual has a medical condition but as you say it doesn't really matter when DE won't fix their game so you can't sleep through the highest levels, can't blame me for wishing certain aspects were better but it's clear now the community doesn't want what I want. 🤷‍♂️

[Test-995]

10 hours ago, Ramflare said:

Yeah I get it, this isn't such a big issue that I'm going to quit. I personally consider macros to be exploits unless an individual has a medical condition but as you say it doesn't really matter when DE won't fix their game so you can't sleep through the highest levels, can't blame me for wishing certain aspects were better but it's clear now the community doesn't want what I want. 🤷‍♂️

I just don't get why certain aspects can be better by disallowing macros, there is no actual difference in gameplay, people like you could feel a little better but that's it.

[Steel_Rook]

19 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

3) internet tough guy?  sure, why not, whatever... yes, it is entitled and whiney behavior.  It's a free game you are playing with random strangers on the internet, the world doesn't revolve around you, put up and deal, or stfu, or be branded a crybaby.  is that upsetting to someone's feelies?  i sure hope so, and I hope it hurts their feels enough to either grow the F up, or quit, or at least shut up about it.

It's not a matter of hurt feelings. It's a matter of personal integrity, which reflects on how much weight your word carries. With this post right here, you've demonstrated two things. Firstly, you've conducted yourself like an absolute jerk and brought toxicity to the discussion which is not just unwarranted but also disruptive. Secondly, you've demonstrated that no matter how eloquent you may phrase you thoughts, you're arguing in bad faith. Both of those combine tell me that attempting to appeal to your reason and presenting you with arguments in good faith - attempting to engage you in conversation, in other words - is both pointless and disruptive. When attempting to come across as tough, it's important to understand that this is not going to result in you dominating people. It's going to result in people dismissing what you have to say.

Or, as the case may be, putting you on ignore. You can feel free to respond, but I'm not going to read it. Your conduct in response to me and in the rest of the thread tells me all I need to know.

 

3 hours ago, Test-995 said:

I just don't get why certain aspects can be better by disallowing macros, there is no actual difference in gameplay, people like you could feel a little better but that's it.

Generally speaking, heavy use of macros tends to be indicative of poor underlying design. The usual example I give is very fast-firing semi-auto weapons causing people to use autoclickers or bind fire to the mouse wheel. If a game mechanic is balanced by repetitive strain injury and controller wear, that's a badly-balanced game mechanic which should probably be looked at and rebalanced. On the subject of slide attacks, their design suggests that they're not intended to be used all of the time. They CAN be and there's nothing "cheaty" about doing so, but they're being used out-of-context and that's causing obvious issues. We're essentially looking at the next generation of "coptering." Sooner or later, DE will need to decide on whether they want this in the game in which case it needs to be standardised, or whether they don't want it in the game in which case it needs to be changed.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Steel_Rook

[40PE]

On 2019-10-14 at 12:30 PM, taiiat said:

you also, seem to be unable to separate one thing from another, and blame something for something else that you don't like.
why don't you blame the source of the problem? is it because you like that source and want to keep the Damage Multipliers of it so you can use it yourself, but still have something to try and high road in some way on?

Not sure what you think I blame cheating on something else. Mainly, hardver devices do support such macros for e.g. Mice. That doesn't mean games support it and they clearly say -most of the time, not sure what is the policy on WF.- that one action requires one button push.

So if WF has the same policy, then macroing a complex movement and attack on one button push should be considering cheating if not then we don't really have anything to complain about. 🙂

[herflik]

Just balance the mod, make it work the same way as other critical chance mods and problem will be solved automaticly.

Stop being afraid of whining people that dont have respect to balance. The "we are afraid to offend old players" attitude is breaking tons of games. If it out ot balance then balance it, you shouldnt even care about what people might say. If you have logical arguments of why it need balancing just write a news about it and implement the change. DE is just stoping the progress of game due to bunch of people not understanding any reasoning.

 

[taiiat]

On 2019-10-17 at 7:44 AM, 40PE said:

that one action requires one button push.

does that mean that we should all be banned from just about every game, when they innately have Compound functions where one button does more than one thing? *smirk*

i agree with the original view that Digital Extremes viewed in this area - don't automate your Gameplay. making my own Compound functions, moving buttons to other places, changing what signal a button sends, changing what the standard press/hold signal types does.... it's all useful stuff. and all of it falls into the Category of 'Macros', because a Macro is just a script, it can do all sorts of things.

 

7 hours ago, herflik said:

Just balance the mod, make it work the same way as other critical chance mods and problem will be solved automaticly.

so you mean by giving Blood Rush a normal, sane Formula, right? i hope so.

because i can do the exact same thing that people grumble about, with other Crit Chance Mods because it's Blood Rush that causes it, nothing else.

Edited October 18, 2019 by taiiat

[TheSkunkyMonk]

The game is not competitive so I don't really see the issue. Mind the fact you can use any macro at all in this game without getting a ban ensures I will never touch PVP other than that one accidental click(I won:)).

[Educated_Beast]

You don't need a macro to spin to win.  I've never used a macro, played plenty with whips.  

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2019-10-16 at 10:11 PM, Ramflare said:

I personally consider macros to be exploits unless an individual has a medical condition but as you say it doesn't really matter when DE won't fix their game so you can't sleep through the highest levels, can't blame me for wishing certain aspects were better but it's clear now the community doesn't want what I want.

Argumentative people are always going to be argumentative, they don't actually care if this result you want happens. They genuinely wouldn't mind if macros (other than access assistance) went away, but their overall argument is 'why should they put the effort in to change it?' not 'they shouldn't change it', which is a big difference in argument.

On the plus side... DE just showed how they're fixing the game so you can't sleep through the highest levels (at least with melee) and certain aspects are definitely now going to be better.

It'll need a lot of testing to find out what the new exploits are, now that things like Maiming Strike are being converted to normal percentage scaling and not the flat percentage additive that they were before, and now that the Combo Counter is a resource for Heavy Attacks, not for scaling up your base melee damage... it's going to be interesting.

[Andele3025]

It is very entertaining to see people talk about whips as if they (and sword & whip) weapons werent bugged since hitscan check to get stuck to 2m range never extending thus being worse than daggers at aoe the vast majority of any mission time.

[Ramflare]

19 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It is very entertaining to see people talk about whips as if they (and sword & whip) weapons werent bugged since hitscan check to get stuck to 2m range never extending thus being worse than daggers at aoe the vast majority of any mission time.

If this was true I wouldn't be seeing the results other people get using this tactic and more people would be complaining. I actually just tested it and it's clearly not a common issue or it got fixed since you last checked. 

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Ramflare said:

If this was true I wouldn't be seeing the results other people get using this tactic and more people would be complaining. I actually just tested it and it's clearly not a common issue or it got fixed since you last checked. 

You denying the truth doesnt mean reality will change. All extending weapons range still get cut off and bugged for the next strike if the hitscan check added for melee hits any part of the environment before the middle of the animation, ignoring that there might be enemies you can make a straight line to to the left or right of whatever map part it hits.
Clearly a weapon hitting for at least under half its range (or worse the higher your attack speed) around 30% of the time is "not a common issue".
If you want to reliably reproduce it in simulacrum instead of actually looking at the combo counter in gameplay and seeing a +1 despite the whip spin attack going through 4 of them or the sweep and double whirl on snapdragon phazing through enemies due to range being turned shorter than the blade attacks, do a charge attack after the 2nd attack of a whip, regularly they had/have the same 10~m range as base attacks, now 80% of the time its 8 or below (or if you want 99.99% reproduction rate, the no stance charge attack where you even see the animation bug out).

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

With all the complaining this community does about other player's loadouts, you'd think this game was PVP.