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Kuva Weapon Rivens + Disposition Process Changes


[DE]Connor

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9 hours ago, ErsatzInsomniac said:

They should design around their customers, just so happens their customers have the average intelligence and attention span of your average person - IE not much. Remember the people on these boards, even the ones who aren't all that informed, are still paying vastly more attention than your average player who just logs in, wows at the flashy lights, and spends some money with that super lucky 50% off coupon to get plat to buy a riven mod for their super favorite weapon.

They aren't going to read about stuff like this, they aren't going to pay attention to many of the details, they're just going to slap that riven into the new prime version of their favorite weapon and say "But wait, why does it only have half the numbers it just said earlier?"

 

That isn't a reason to not make changes. For those that keep up or are curious the information is readily available. For those that do not care to, well like all the other mechanics in the game, if they don't want to properly understand them that is up to them. This is true of a lot of things in the game. Should we also get rid of elemental combos because some people don't bother to learn which ones work against what or get rid of red and orange crits because people don't bother to look up how crit chance works past 100%? Warframe may be easy but there are a lot of complex mechanics in it and that is part of what makes it such an interesting game.We shouldn't kill that for the part of the community that can't even be bothered to come here and read or leave feedback.

 

9 hours ago, ErsatzInsomniac said:

 

That's problem number one before you even begin to take into account the issue of game health people have already described where 5/5 dispo will generally beat 1/5 dispo on similar weapons even if the base stats are higher on the 1/5. 5/5 dispo will absolutely crush with weaker base stats than 1/5 dispo things with higher stats. Even 3/5 is vastly stronger than 1/5. The customers who DO figure out their mistakes on weapon variants aren't even going to bother with the prime unless it's Gram to Gram Prime levels of higher stats. (Pre balance pass normal Gram had unsalvageable 7.5%cc/10%sc and Gram P rolled in rocking around 30/30) This has further possibility of lost revenue unless DE power creeps the hell out of every new variant release which is likely to just further compound everything.

Rivens are meant to allow you to invest in weapons that aren't top tier to elevate them to being able to compete with stronger ones. You say this is an issue. I say it is working as intended. In addition to this people still farm new gear for a lot of reasons. If the meta was the only concern we would be seeing only kitguns, zaws and Tigris Primes on every loadout but that isn't what we see. Even gear that doesn't push the meta constantly forward is farmed, grinded and ultimately some people will hold onto them. You are also basing this on the fact that every or even the majority of players is going to have a good riven for every variant that comes out and that just isn't the case. The person with 120 rivens or actively collecting them for all of their loadouts is not the norm.

 

9 hours ago, ErsatzInsomniac said:

t just feels really short sighted in a huge aspect. I respect the effort, I respect trying new ideas, but I also respect them enough to try to point out any and all ways this could blow up in their faces and I really feel they're going to tick off far more of their player base than just the die hard riven marketers.

And I see this being a massive boon to build diversity and giving people a reason to actually invest in older or less powerful weapons, you know, what the riven system was supposed to do. Will it make some people mad, sure, will it confuse some others, undoubetdly. Big changes usually do, especially when they involve rivens. That doesn't mean that they are bad and where DE fails to properly explain something, the community will do what it always does and pick up the slack and help our fellow Tenno when possible.

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On 2019-11-07 at 5:14 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Kuva weapons earned from Liches are top-of-the-line statwise.

Well not really with the kuva quartakk.
People who preferred firing from the hip with the original quartakk for hundreds of hours. Now they are forced to use the weak auto-fire mode with no punch through, no decent cc and cd, way lower fire rate and lowe accuracy. 
I have been questioning from the start: why we can't just fire from the hip with the normal fire mode? switching between fire modes so people who prefer auto fire can use it while aim, and who prefer the burst can use the burst fire mode from the hip. Why is this so hard to understand 😢 ?  People not like the quatz's mechanic for a reason: because it just feels bad to use, fragmented, annoying. And I really not wanna talk about the others what I not main because their mains posted their feedback on them.


And this riven system well.. it's really a two-sided blade and it's bad for  DE's pockets and for the community too. I get the basic idea but it's will just make people think: why I should even bother farm out the better version of this weapon?  

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<< "And so, it begins." >>

You're going to still base your riven disposition changes on popular usage, correct? With this in mind, what are you going to do after a prime variant is released with a prime frame? When everyone has that weapon, due to prime relic farming, what are you going to do with the usage data for that prime variant weapon? Will you determine its use is too high from the data feed and lower the riven disposition for the prime variant only? 

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For what reason? Are you trying to shoot yourselves in the feet? This means the player population will first spend time farming the shiny, new, prime variant weapon. Heavily, might I add. << " Working as intended, am I right ? " >>  Next, they have spent platinum buying the riven (which is increased in price from the supply-demand business model). Last, they watch their riven get its leg cut off? You're doing this just because people have the prime variant you promoted and they're using it? 

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Why should I get the prime variant of that new weapon with this in mind? Why should I farm your prime relics?  << " Hey there, Sparky. Got a fresh batch, just came in. You want first pick? "  >> When player usage of a variant goes up, the riven disposition goes down. That's your model, correct? Is this to discourage me from your Orokin relics? Are you considering what this will do to unused variants (or even basic variants) of the same weapon? Once the prime variant gets its disposition changed, people can move to the prisma, vandal or wraith variant because it's designed to be a cosmetic (and statistical?) improvement over the basic variant. Then, when the wraith variant goes up in usage, that disposition is brought down. You will look at the usage data again and see a heavy usage change from weapon prime to weapon wraith, yes? That's why you would want to bring the riven down for the wraith? 

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Are you willfully making us play a game of hopscotch with a single riven? Is it, dare I say, amusing for you to see the player base go from a new prime variant, to an old wraith variant, to maybe even a basic variant?  The players will try to adapt to your riven changes after you've scanned usage data and crippled that used variant as a result of that same use. Have you even read the trade chat? There are rivens going for beyond the USD ( or " $ " ) equivalent of 50 or even 100. I could buy a whole other game with that sack of bits. <<  " Hey, Tenno. You like deals ? "  >> Even while considering the buyer's mistake of paying so high a price with the quote from P.T. Barnum, " there's a sucker born every minute, " are you also considering how radical this will make the free market? With this in mind, consider the following: 1 -  a riven for a weapon goes for next to nothing. 2 - its prime comes out, it is farmed and becomes popular. The riven is bought in high quantities. 3 - the prime variant's disposition gets crippled because the prime is being used a lot. 4 - the riven's price plummets again and is sold in high quantities. 5 - you release a variant of the same weapon (i.e. wraith), that wraith variant becomes popular and the cycle repeats.

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I'm only going from what you've done so far, so I'll ask you - Is this a good idea? Are you aware of what this will do to your new gear variants regardless of their lore source? Have you thought this through? How do you plan to handle the conclusion I've proposed? Is there something else you are going to try? I'm not making statements; I'm asking questions because I don't like what I see. 

<< " Speak, Lotus. The pieces are set. It is your move."  >>

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After reading the comments in the forum, I noticed that most of the players, who seem to be expert economists and game designers, predict a collapse in the purchase of platinum and therefore of financial revenue for DE.

In truth they know very well that the one to collapse will be their platinum balance sheet.

And this simply because all the rivens for the next primed version of weapons (Daykiu, Cornith...) that are in their stock, which have probably bought at ridiculous prices from noobs, are worth probably half of the budgeted gain (probably less).

And this is freaking them out...

Great work DE... Keep it up!!!

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...this thread is honestly painful to read through. Between the circlejerking and the lack of basic information, it should be clear why the devs don't look at the forums much for feedback.

Firstly, the immediate assumption that Rivens will be nerfed into the ground on all "upgrade" variants, leaving the base form as objectively the strongest, is just ridiculous. They'll be balanced so that the base form is competitive with its upgraded forms, but ultimately Primed variants will win out, if only because they need to keep sales up on Prime Access. They're not so short-sighted that they would damage their profit model in the name of balance.

Secondly, people keep acting like the stats would change with zero warning when equipping a Riven on a Primed weapon, but we've already seen that's not the case. The Riven screen is getting a tweak to show the stats that each version of the weapon would receive when equipped to it, so you could easily scroll through and see specifically what your preferred weapon would get from a given Riven. There's no surprises, no possibility for exploiting unaware players, no risk of suddenly realizing you've wasted your plat on a Riven you didn't want.

When it comes down to it, this thread is just a whiny echo chamber for people who are upset that their toys are getting brought in line, and don't want their power trip to end. There's a startling unawareness in this community of just how unhealthy raw power fantasy is for the future of a game, and we're already suffering from the effects of power creep limiting development possibilities. Things like this need to happen, and should have happened a long time ago. There comes a time when you have to let go of the big numbers if you want this game to continue to grow.

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I might be biased since I despise rivens and the constant changing of something that some players invest time and money in, but what does balancing rivens based on individual weapons accomplish? 

If I love using tiberon, I am going to get the prime variant. Even if the disposition on the prime is distinctly lower than the original (not to mention, in this case, prime has crit and original does not), the prime is usually objectively the better weapon (which is why, you know, they are for sale on release).

Now I end up with a very good prime weapon where my riven is useless on (+cc riven can be outpaced by argon scope). And then what? Ditch my investment and use the new variant? Continue to use the rivened variant and forget about the weapon that I farmed or paid for? 

The only exceptions that I can see are absolute god rolls that still justifies using a nerfed riven on primes (2/5 dispo and something like +cc +cd +multi - zoom). 

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I hate how some riven users believe that everyone has a riven for everything, and base their opinion around this idea.

The truth is that many players don't actively seek rivens, and even those who get one won't roll 66+ times to get that godly roll, especially because of the time investiment and the actual return. Most weapons don't need rivens to work well, even in sorties. They actually only come into play during long endless missions or arbitrations, and this is a very niche group of players.

As for base weapons and their prime counterparts. Ideally the normal version with a riven should at least get on par or a bit better than the prime, but the prime version with a riven will still probably be stronger due to stat differences. Some weapons like Rubico and Rubico Prime don't have too much difference in crit stats, but the prime has 37% higher fire rate, which should make them equal or similar if you put rivens. The difference in riven stats will therefore be small, maybe 0.7 vs 1

On another hand, Gram is vastly inferior to Gram Prime, and will probably be less used. I'm suspecting it will get a 1.44 riven dispo while the prime remains at 0.7 or something. But the normal version has 47% less damage, 53% less crit and status, and has 0.4x less crit damage. So even if you slap a riven on both, the normal Gram will barely surpass the prime, and will lose if you put the riven on the later.

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2 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

...this thread is honestly painful to read through. Between the circlejerking and the lack of basic information, it should be clear why the devs don't look at the forums much for feedback.

Firstly, the immediate assumption that Rivens will be nerfed into the ground on all "upgrade" variants, leaving the base form as objectively the strongest, is just ridiculous. They'll be balanced so that the base form is competitive with its upgraded forms, but ultimately Primed variants will win out, if only because they need to keep sales up on Prime Access. They're not so short-sighted that they would damage their profit model in the name of balance.

Secondly, people keep acting like the stats would change with zero warning when equipping a Riven on a Primed weapon, but we've already seen that's not the case. The Riven screen is getting a tweak to show the stats that each version of the weapon would receive when equipped to it, so you could easily scroll through and see specifically what your preferred weapon would get from a given Riven. There's no surprises, no possibility for exploiting unaware players, no risk of suddenly realizing you've wasted your plat on a Riven you didn't want.

When it comes down to it, this thread is just a whiny echo chamber for people who are upset that their toys are getting brought in line, and don't want their power trip to end. There's a startling unawareness in this community of just how unhealthy raw power fantasy is for the future of a game, and we're already suffering from the effects of power creep limiting development possibilities. Things like this need to happen, and should have happened a long time ago. There comes a time when you have to let go of the big numbers if you want this game to continue to grow.

Well said.

As long as the Riven chat links (and ideally the Trade Screen too) give clear information on the stats of the Riven for each of its variants, I cannot see any issues with the change to separate dispositions. (The riven rolling screen actually does this for the kuva/regular versions at the moment, though only for the variants that you own.)

If a base variant is close to its Prime (e.g. Rubico) it'll end up with a disposition close to said Prime. If the base variant is much weaker than the prime (e.g. Sicarus), the base variant won't even come close, even with max disposition.

There might be some mid-way weirdness, like Tiberon vs Tiberon Prime and Sancti Tigris vs Tigris Prime, but we'll have to see.

 

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Words can not express how dissatisfied this update makes me from a market standpoint. Perhaps I'm over-reacting here, but I'm doing a DEEEEP concern.

On 2019-11-07 at 11:14 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Greetings Tenno!

We hope you’re having fun Vanquishing Kuva Liches left and right on PC (update coming to consoles in the near future, stay tuned for updates!)

As this new system was mostly aimed at experienced players with a wide arsenal, the Kuva weapons earned from Liches are top-of-the-line statwise. However, most were based on older weapons that didn’t see as much use by players at higher Mastery Ranks. As a result, players who equip a Riven on one of these Kuva weapons may notice a slight discrepancy.... Rivens have lowered stats on Kuva weapons, because they have a different disposition.

This is a change we have wanted to make regarding Rivens for awhile, and Kuva Lich weapons presented the perfect opportunity to make it a reality. This change was meant to appear in The Old Blood: Update 26.0 patch notes, but was unfortunately missed during the Mainline madness - and for that we’re sorry! It’s a complicated change to convey in-game, so thank you for being understanding while we update UI across the game to reflect the changes.

Going forward, weapon dispositions will be tuned per weapon, instead of per weapon family. For instance, this means a Kohm Riven will have a disposition of 1.4 on a regular Kohm, but only a disposition of 1 when applied to a Kuva Kohm. 

This has exciting implications for the future of Riven disposition changes! In the past, new Prime weapons would cause the usage of a weapon family to increase dramatically, forcing us to reduce dispositions for the entire family. With individual dispositions, we’ll be able to set new dispositions for Primes and other upgraded weapons right at launch, leaving your current Riven build unaffected.

We have always balanced dispositions based on the most powerful variation of the weapon in its respective family - now that this is no longer necessary, expect to see us increasing the power level on many lesser variations of weapons in our next set of disposition changes, scheduled for December. These increases will not be huge, as we don’t intend to make any base variants explicitly better than their upgraded counterparts, but it will offer a more appropriate boost that isn’t influenced by a more powerful weapon that you may not own yet.

Speaking of our next set of disposition changes, The Old Blood also introduced Melee Phase 2. Now that the weapon power balance has been redistributed, Melee Rivens will soon be affected as part of Prime Access rebalance schedule….. but not quite yet. To give players time to experiment, and to give ourselves a more reliable set of usage stats, we will start Melee Riven changes in the following revisit, scheduled for early next year.

Thanks for reading!

2 points about this before we get into the nittygritty: Firstly, as a player who buys, sells, and uses rivens on a multiple times in a day basis, I can tell you this does not have exciting implications for the future changes to riven dispo, to me as a player. It is incredibly depressing to me that at least you @[DE]Connor, thought I'd gather the team you speak for, sees nerfing the power of variant weapons as exciting and forward looking. 

Oh, a cool new prime of one of my favorite weapons! Can't wait to go make good use of it! "Yeah, but its dispo is S#&amp;&#036; compared to your current weapon"

....You're telling me as a player I now need to farm up a new variant of one of my old weapons (So rarely any actual functionality increases bar things like the pryana- stronger stats is the main improvement here), invest all the forma, time, effort, and potato into it, and after all of that, its now going to be arguably worse than the base *BECAUSE* its a prime/variant? *BECAUSE* its new and shiny, its a downgrade to my riven? 

Even if it isn't worse, or to phrase it correctly, even if the stat boosts carry the day (and its not a .4 dispo hit for being a "different type" of the same weapon), the kick-ass riven you have for it is going to be worse? Why?! How does this fix any of the balance issues within the game?! 

Secondly, how is this going to affect Primes? Vandals? Wraiths? Syndicate weapons? Weapons with Syndicate mods down the line? How will this affect people who play "exalted" frames like Gara, Khora, or Atlas, who rely on the riven of the weapon to augment the power of their 1st abilities? Are we now as players encouraged to ignore even the most shiny orokin improvements of our weapons because of the frame we play? When these frames aren't even close to the biggest offenders of "balance"?

Is the eventual plan to make these abilities exalted? And if so, how are you going to compensate us for the multiple hundreds of % boon rivens give us when/if that change rolls around?

My 2 immediate concerns aside, lets talk about this from a multiple player standpoint. Timmy, Johnny, and Spike, to pull a magic terminology.

Timmy, the low MR player who just plays the game for fun and because he can do cool ninja parkour tricks

Johnny, the intermediate player, who has some of the capabilities of endgame, but isn't so completed that he's mastered it all. He plays the game for some of the synergy of improving his weapons and frames, and because the playstyle of the game, even if a "grind" is fun.

Spike, the master/serious player, who has leveled most everything there is to level, and optimized many of his builds to the tenth or farther percentile. He plays the game for success- making platinum, carrying his clan to glory, and you might even see him in Lunaro, though lets not get too crazy or off base here. 


As a player, I'm probably more of a Johnny, although then it comes to Atlas in particular,  I'm definitely a Spike, but lets look at it as though these are just completely random people.

Timmy starts up warframe and sees these changes. Most of the new kuva stuff or rivens probably don't really matter to him, and he probably moves on his way. For the most part, Timmy doesn't really care about stats or anything, he's just playing the game to have fun. While I'm sure we can all relate to playing a game for the fun of it, MOST of the 27 million losers that I've met are playing the game for more than just that "basic" enjoyment. However, Timmy might notice that his shiny new red gun gets a little less benefit from his purple mod than his not so shiny grey gun, and if he even cares, maybe that will cause him to flip some mods around.

Johnny players are going to look at this update and see some of their precious synergy being tampered with. Johnny just got a cool new kuva weapon, and it just so happened to be an improved variant of one of his favorite weapons! Its got some decent crit now, along with some other boons, and even an innate element effect! There are so many things he can do with these new stats now, but there's one catch: his riven that he's had for a while doesn't really "work" on this new weapon. Maybe its a basic shotgun riven with like, 120% status chance, so he doesn't have to run 2 dualstats- On this new, shiny, interesting weapon, it might only give say, 80 or 100%. He still needs to run a dualstat on top of that to hit is status goals now, because this new weapon "would be too powerful otherwise", sans nerf. Most of the players I've met are at this tier: they play the game for the fun of playing it, but also for doing the cool things within- taking a weapon many people consider bad, and making it function better, or finding improvements to make the weapons/frames they use more fun. It's kinda hard to want to try and find some cool new uses for some of these kuva weapons when one of the main tools of making weapons more powerful, Rivens, are directly/indirectly being hampered by it being a "variant" weapon. 

Spike players, the few that I've met that still hang around and play actively, I would imagine this update really won't matter to them either, but not for a good reason. This update won't really matter to a "master level" player, because they probably weren't going to use many of these new weapons consistently to begin with. They'll still grab it for the mastery, blast through the new content, and instead of really....caring, most of them will just discount the new variants as Mr fodder or trash weapons, unless they prove themselves in some way to these players. If they do, the players will probably do a lot of science with it- come up with a cool new build, or make the thing remove 150+ content in a click or two. Now, these new weapons must not only contend with whatever well oiled machine the Spike was using previously, they have to do that with a significant lesser boon from rivens. 

Riven changes aren't going to severely impact balance. It won't stop people from using a "problematic weapon" (See, the catchmoon), and it doesn't really *matter* in the scheme of things. If you want to balance the game, actually balance it then. Change the weapons stats rather than #*!%ing with the riven, and you'll see a much more dramatic response in terms of balance. 

As it stands, all I've seen or received from the Disposition changes has been nerf after nerf, and to be honest I don't really care. Couple of my favorite weapons lost some dispo, but it doesn't mean they were made *bad*. Catchmoon got dispo nerfed into the dirt, and then kicked while it was down by the falloff nerf, but its still fun to use. Just because a mod does a few less % doesn't mean its a reason to quit playing the game, and the game is still fun regardless.

This however, is not merely a disposition nerf. Now, whenever a new weapon comes out, one of the guns I'm waiting for gets primed/variant-ed, or whenever I'm thinking of messing with a prime/variant weapon, I'll have to account for the fact, as a player who plays the game for more than surface level enjoyment, that my riven in particular won't do what it says on the tin. While not to over-exaggerate it, it almost feels like I'm being told to choose between riven and variant. As someone who actually enjoys rivens for the certain fact that rivens have such variety to them, this update hurts my ability to enjoy the game more than it does balance any of the broken things I can do as a player. 

I asked it before when the first bit of "Disposition changes" rolled around, and I'll ask it again now since I still haven't gotten a straight answer: "Why is changing the rivens the path DE is choosing to go down? How is that healthy to the game? How does it accomplish anything other than screwing with the market?"

Again, from a balance standpoint, these riven changes do nothing much, so clearly I have so little to be salty about, right? It's not the balance these riven changes hurt so badly, its the market. Before these changes, I could hop on and sell rivens til my trades ran dry, and it was honestly enjoyable. Now, people rarely if ever want to buy anything, because it *might* get nerfed, weapon or riven both. The exceptions are cheap trash rolls for less than the cost of a prime set, or actual perfect rivens people just can't hope to roll, so they shell out for. If I can attest to nothing else, it is that these riven disposition changes have royally screwed up the riven market for me as a player and riven trader, between off-sites like Riven.market and even just trade-chat itself. 

As a last, VERY salty aside, I've half a mind to draw attention to this paragraph. 

On 2019-11-07 at 11:14 AM, [DE]Connor said:

This has exciting implications for the future of Riven disposition changes! In the past, new Prime weapons would cause the usage of a weapon family to increase dramatically, forcing us to reduce dispositions for the entire family. With individual dispositions, we’ll be able to set new dispositions for Primes and other upgraded weapons right at launch, leaving your current Riven build unaffected.

Prior to the "Riven Dispo updates" that now come every prime cycle, this was not a concern.  A weapon being primed was cause for celebration! Your favorite gun is gonna have some cool new stuff! Post that update, Dread. Your favorite gun will likely get dispo nerfed due to popularity. Now, after this update, We're being sold this "We can leave your current riven build unaffected" pitch as though it will be better than the days before these pointless disposition changes. "In the Past" is not some bygone era of warframe, where the Devs walked among the star-chart dealing nerfs to weapons as primes hit.

This is not a gift or a cause for celebration, it is little more than a (Rather poorly done,might I add) band-aid to a pointless fix that was done in the all too recent past- Balance the WEAPON if there are issues with the game, but for the love of the Void, leave the riven alone!

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So normal variants will have better rivens. People will start to use them more if stats end up being better, so they will then get their disposition lowered because people will be using more the normal ones than the other variants (except some cases that specific mechanics make it better). At the end it will be the same to just use a normal weapon that's easy to get vs a weapon that's hard to farm. Just feels pointless. Will have to wait how the numbers end up being.
 

 

Why don't you just remove Rivens and make weapons have 10 mod slots instead of 8?

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Just now, BLI7Z said:

So normal variants will have better rivens. People will start to use them more if stats end up being better, so they will then get their disposition lowered because people will be using more the normal ones than the other variants (except some cases that specific mechanics make it better). At the end it will be the same to just use a normal weapon that's easy to get vs a weapon that's hard to farm. Just feels pointless. Will have to wait how the numbers end up being.
 

 

Why don't you just remove Rivens and make weapons have 10 mod slots instead of 8?

Because of powercreep. Tigris Prime has super low riven disposition because it is a monster and many people use it, adding more slots would make it worse. Rivens are not meant to boost high end gear, which is usually the most used weapons, they are meant to boost fun weapons that have lower stats. But we can't boost their base stats either, due to gear progression. DE can't make Tigris Prime MR 4, for example.

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2 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Because of powercreep. Tigris Prime has super low riven disposition because it is a monster and many people use it, adding more slots would make it worse. Rivens are not meant to boost high end gear, which is usually the most used weapons, they are meant to boost fun weapons that have lower stats. But we can't boost their base stats either, due to gear progression. DE can't make Tigris Prime MR 4, for example.

Fun weapons is a subjective concept. So weapons should end up having balanced stats and killing power regardless of MR required and farming deepness, so everyone can feel happy and safe using any weapon they want from the 300+ arsenal? That kills progression. 

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Just now, BLI7Z said:

Fun weapons is a subjective concept. So weapons should end up having balanced stats and killing power regardless of MR required and farming deepness, so everyone can feel happy and safe using any weapon they want from the 300+ arsenal? That kills progression. 

Fun weapons mechanic-wise, like a secondary fire mode. And as I said above, not everyone has a riven for everything, so it won't kill progression for 90% of the people. And I'm not saying the riven mechanic is great either, because it isn't. And even low MR gear will not be saved with a riven,  an akbolto with a gody riven won't  surpass Akbolto Prime, even more so because you can put the same riven(although with less stats) on the prime version. It won't be like the Dragon Nikana scenario.

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I said it a long time ago during one of the riven dispo changes, and I'll say it again. Rivens are just plain lazy. They are late game material, and there exists better solutions than what is currently in place. For instance:
 

1.) Locking riven stats. You are able to lock certain stats during rerolls, or even just locking a single stat, rest are random. Upon locking, the riven becomes un-tradable, and make it so preferred stats are only really achievable upon locking stats. For instance, a status type bonus will always come with a status percent negative until locking, or a crit chance will come with a negative crit damage, +damage -multishot, etc. Once locked, you can reroll and have higher chances at better stats. "God-roll" rivens will almost cease to exist, and will put the riven market in a much healthier state, where players trade maxed but unrolled rivens, or just plain straight rivens that aren't maxed. Even better, you can make it so you can only trade unrolled rivens, and those rivens stats will only be revealed on first roll. Paired with locking stats, players will be more enthused about getting good stats for less-used weapons. At least I would be.

 

2.) Bumping stats of less used weapons slightly every now and then, a percent of crit chance here, a percent of status chance there, maybe come damage increases, etc. Less used weapons may find a use when paired with a riven if their stats are at least usable. 5% crit chance with 10% status chance is not really ideal, and rivens (usually) cannot fix that. I'm not saying "make the regular weapons equal to the prime variants". Far from it in fact. Minor increments might see players experimenting with different builds, and if you see a healthy use for that weapon, stop buffing it.

 

3.) As stated by others, toss a 1.0/1.1 dispo on all rivens, standardize them. I'm in opposition of this change unless other changes are made to control the riven market, as 1.0/1.1 still gives "God-roll" rivens and will keep the market toxic (unless that's what people prefer, I don't particularly care as there are weapons that simply outperform other weapons with "god-roll" rivens, so the community can deal with that hehe. My trusty Tigris Prime will do me well)

 

Nerfing rivens just upsets those that put in the time and effort (yes, I said effort, kuva survival isn't all that fun tbh, but that's just me) to get those rivens. Of course others opt for the trade chat for rivens, but I'm not touching that filthy thing. Absolutely disgusting.

 

Anyways, long story short, as these things are late game content, I don't see the issue of them being strong in a PVE game, as long as it isn't game-breaking and there is a way to limit the use of them through the 3 methods above (or other good ideas that may have been mentioned in this thread/previous threads). We've seen balance with other weapons, and while it isn't always successful, it is usually at least enough to mix up the meta a bit here and there.

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As for the weapon, with pleasure:

Comparisons:

  • Tiberon Prime, compared to Tiberon (burst mode)
    • Higher base damage (46.0 vs. 44.0)  
      • Higher Impact b Impact damage (13.8 vs. 11.0)
      • Lower Puncture b Puncture damage (18.4 vs. 22.0)
      • Higher Slash b Slash damage (13.8 vs. 11.0)
    • Lower fire rate (7.38 rounds/sec vs. 9.09 rounds/sec) (19% less fire rate)
    • Larger magazine (42 rounds vs. 30 rounds) (+40% ammo)
    • Faster reload speed (2 s vs. 2.26 s) (12% faster reload)
    • Different polarities (Madurai PolNaramon PolNaramon Pol vs. Madurai Pol)
    • Higher Mastery Rank required (14 vs. 10)
    • Higher crit damage (3.0 vs 2.4) (25% more crit damage)
    • Higher status chance (20% vs 16%) (25% more status chance)
    • 2 extra fire modes
    • +versatile

Diffferences (in percentage, compared to the base version, because rivens consider base stats)

+4% damage, -19% fire rate, +40% magazine, +12% reload speed, +25% crit damage,+25% status chance, +2 fire modes.

Therefore, still a lot better on the long run.

Comparisons:

  • Pyrana Prime, compared to Pyrana:
    • Lower base damage (240.0 vs. 264.0) (-9% damage)
      • Lower Impact b Impact damage (19.2 vs. 26.4)
      • Lower Puncture b Puncture damage (19.2 vs. 26.4)
      • Lower Slash b Slash damage (201.6 vs. 211.2)
    • Higher critical chance (24% vs. 20%) (20% more crit chance)
    • Higher critical multiplier (2.2x vs. 2x) (10% more crit damage)
    • Higher status chance (12% vs. 10%) (20% more status)
    • Lower fire rate (4 rounds/sec vs. 4.17 rounds/sec) (4% less fire rate)
    • Longer range before damage falloff starts (18m vs. 15m) (+20% damage falloff range)
    • Longer range before damage falloff ends (36m vs. 30m)  (+20% damage falloff range
    • Larger max damage reduction due to falloff (75% vs. 72.73%) (-3,1% less reduction)
    • Larger magazine (12 rounds vs. 10 rounds) (+20% magazine)
    • Faster reload speed (1.6 s vs. 2 s) (+20% reload speed)
    • More accurate (6 vs. 5) (+20% accurate)
    • Akimbo if you kill 3 in quick succession (+100% fire rate?)
    • Different polarities (Madurai PolMadurai Pol vs. None)
    • Higher Mastery Rank required (13 vs. 12)

Differences:

+20% crit chance, +10% crit damage, +20% status chance, +20% damage falloff start range, +20% damage falloff end range, +3,1% overall damage due to less max reduction, +20% magazine, +20% reload speed, +20% accuracy, -9% damage and -4% fire rate. +100% fire rate when in akimbo mode.

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3 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

*snip*

Comparisons:

  • Pyrana Prime, compared to Pyrana:

*snip*

Differences:

+20% crit chance, +10% crit damage, +20% status chance, +20% damage falloff start range, +20% damage falloff end range, +3,1% overall damage due to less max reductio, +20% magazine, +20% reload speed, +20% accuracy, -4% damage and -4% fire rate.

Don't forget about the Pyrana Prime passive. Significant increase in DPS when activated.

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Just now, VolatileAcidity said:

I said it a long time ago during one of the riven dispo changes, and I'll say it again. Rivens are just plain lazy. They are late game material, and there exists better solutions than what is currently in place. For instance:
 

1.) Locking riven stats. You are able to lock certain stats during rerolls, or even just locking a single stat, rest are random. Upon locking, the riven becomes un-tradable, and make it so preferred stats are only really achievable upon locking stats. For instance, a status type bonus will always come with a status percent negative until locking, or a crit chance will come with a negative crit damage, +damage -multishot, etc. Once locked, you can reroll and have higher chances at better stats. "God-roll" rivens will almost cease to exist, and will put the riven market in a much healthier state, where players trade maxed but unrolled rivens, or just plain straight rivens that aren't maxed. Even better, you can make it so you can only trade unrolled rivens, and those rivens stats will only be revealed on first roll. Paired with locking stats, players will be more enthused about getting good stats for less-used weapons. At least I would be.

 

2.) Bumping stats of less used weapons slightly every now and then, a percent of crit chance here, a percent of status chance there, maybe come damage increases, etc. Less used weapons may find a use when paired with a riven if their stats are at least usable. 5% crit chance with 10% status chance is not really ideal, and rivens (usually) cannot fix that. I'm not saying "make the regular weapons equal to the prime variants". Far from it in fact. Minor increments might see players experimenting with different builds, and if you see a healthy use for that weapon, stop buffing it.

 

3.) As stated by others, toss a 1.0/1.1 dispo on all rivens, standardize them. I'm in opposition of this change unless other changes are made to control the riven market, as 1.0/1.1 still gives "God-roll" rivens and will keep the market toxic (unless that's what people prefer, I don't particularly care as there are weapons that simply outperform other weapons with "god-roll" rivens, so the community can deal with that hehe. My trusty Tigris Prime will do me well)

 

Nerfing rivens just upsets those that put in the time and effort (yes, I said effort, kuva survival isn't all that fun tbh, but that's just me) to get those rivens. Of course others opt for the trade chat for rivens, but I'm not touching that filthy thing. Absolutely disgusting.

 

Anyways, long story short, as these things are late game content, I don't see the issue of them being strong in a PVE game, as long as it isn't game-breaking and there is a way to limit the use of them through the 3 methods above (or other good ideas that may have been mentioned in this thread/previous threads). We've seen balance with other weapons, and while it isn't always successful, it is usually at least enough to mix up the meta a bit here and there.

Allowing you to lock stats wouldn't solve the problem, greedy players would roll 200+ times without locking just for the chance of selling it for 6k+ plat or something. As for the negative stats to counter the positives, I think this would destroy the whole reason I want that stat, because we would have a Nukor scenario (4x crit multiplier but 3% crit chance). However, limiting trading for only unrolled rivens would help reduce the insane prices of the market, because it is very unlikely to get god rolls on the firs try (although I got 3 very good rivens on the unveil).

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2 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

The guy said that some players complaining were more worried about the riven prices, and that doesn't mean you're a criminal. You're putting this on their mouth.

As for the weapon, with pleasure:

Comparisons:

  • Tiberon Prime, compared to Tiberon (burst mode)
    • Higher base damage (46.0 vs. 44.0)  
      • Higher Impact b Impact damage (13.8 vs. 11.0)
      • Lower Puncture b Puncture damage (18.4 vs. 22.0)
      • Higher Slash b Slash damage (13.8 vs. 11.0)
    • Lower fire rate (7.38 rounds/sec vs. 9.09 rounds/sec) (19% less fire rate)
    • Larger magazine (42 rounds vs. 30 rounds) (+40% ammo)
    • Faster reload speed (2 s vs. 2.26 s) (12% faster reload)
    • Different polarities (Madurai PolNaramon PolNaramon Pol vs. Madurai Pol)
    • Higher Mastery Rank required (14 vs. 10)
    • Higher crit chance (3.0 vs 2.4) (25% more crit damage)
    • Higher status chance (20% vs 16%) (25% more status chance)
    • 2 extra fire modes
    • +versatile

Diffferences (in percentage, compared to the base version, because rivens consider base stats)

+4% damage, -19% fire rate, +40% magazine, +12% reload speed, +25% crit damage,+25% status chance, +2 fire modes.

Therefore, still a lot better on the long run.

Comparisons:

  • Pyrana Prime, compared to Pyrana:
    • Lower base damage (240.0 vs. 264.0) (9% less damage)
      • Lower Impact b Impact damage (19.2 vs. 26.4)
      • Lower Puncture b Puncture damage (19.2 vs. 26.4)
      • Lower Slash b Slash damage (201.6 vs. 211.2)
    • Higher critical chance (24% vs. 20%) (20% more crit chance)
    • Higher critical multiplier (2.2x vs. 2x) (10% more crit damage)
    • Higher status chance (12% vs. 10%) (20% more status)
    • Lower fire rate (4 rounds/sec vs. 4.17 rounds/sec) (4% less fire rate)
    • Longer range before damage falloff starts (18m vs. 15m) (+20% damage falloff range)
    • Longer range before damage falloff ends (36m vs. 30m)  (+20% damage falloff range
    • Larger max damage reduction due to falloff (75% vs. 72.73%) (-3,1% less reduction)
    • Larger magazine (12 rounds vs. 10 rounds) (+20% magazine)
    • Faster reload speed (1.6 s vs. 2 s) (+20% reload speed)
    • More accurate (6 vs. 5) (+20% accurate)
    • Different polarities (Madurai PolMadurai Pol vs. None)
    • Higher Mastery Rank required (13 vs. 12)

Differences:

+20% crit chance, +10% crit damage, +20% status chance, +20% damage falloff start range, +20% damage falloff end range, +3,1% overall damage due to less max reduction, +20% magazine, +20% reload speed, +20% accuracy, -4% damage and -4% fire rate.

More like you putting it on my mouth saying i considered myself higher than anyone (except white knight, like i said, anyone in this forums is better than white knights) 

And since unlike huge difference in braton family, it is not obvious at all that the absolute value difference is not that great that you have flex in the percentage to make it more considerable. Not that i disagree with ya, because i know how riven works, i will just states out some specific absolute value in case some people may misunderstand your idea

Tiberon prime has

2 more base dmg than tiberon (46 vs 44)

2% more cc than tiberon (28 vs 26)

0.6 more cd than tiberon (3.0 vs 2.4)

4% more sc than tiberon (20 vs 16)

Pyrana prime has

24 more dmg than pyrana (264 vs 240)

4% more cc (24 vs 22)

0.2 more cd (2.2 vs 2)

And after all, considered their dispo before and after, when those rivens still provided DOUBLE the value of the current one (for example, in terms of secondary maximum 400% dmg vs sthg like 200% dmg now, maximum 280%cc vs sthg like 140% cc now) Are those tiny differences can really effect the end result? Unlike braton, which no dispo difference can save it, many not beginner weapons can just straight up diss out more dmg while their prime (prisma, syndicate...) version may have more utilities, which force people to build (not craft and only bring it to hydron for one or two time) them if they want maximum dmg. And that's what people are concerned about. 

 

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Just now, Kboy2608 said:

More like you putting it on my mouth saying i considered myself higher than anyone (except white knight, like i said, anyone in this forums is better than white knights) 

And since unlike huge difference in braton family, it is not obvious at all that the absolute value difference is not that great that you have flex in the percentage to make it more considerable. Not that i disagree with ya, because i know how riven works, i will just states out some specific absolute value in case some people may misunderstand your idea

Tiberon prime has

2 more base dmg than tiberon (46 vs 44)

2% more cc than tiberon (28 vs 26)

0.6 more cd than tiberon (3.0 vs 2.4)

4% more sc than tiberon (20 vs 16)

Pyrana prime has

24 more dmg than pyrana (264 vs 240)

4% more cc (24 vs 22)

0.2 more cd (2.2 vs 2)

And after all, considered their dispo before and after, when those rivens still provided DOUBLE the value of the current one (for example, in terms of secondary maximum 400% dmg vs sthg like 200% dmg now, maximum 280%cc vs sthg like 140% cc now) Are those tiny differences can really effect the end result? Unlike braton, which no dispo difference can save it, many not beginner weapons can just straight up diss out more dmg while their prime (prisma, syndicate...) version may have more utilities, which force people to build (not craft and only bring it to hydron for one or two time) them if they want maximum dmg. And that's what people are concerned about. 

 

No, base stats do make a difference. 

Lets say that 1.0 dispo gives +150% crit chance and +120% crit damage.

For Tiberon Prime it gives +42% crit chance and +3.6x crit damage. 

Normal tiberon gets +39% crit chance and 2.8x crit damage

While the crit chance difference is marginal, the crit damage is huge. And while the minor buffs don't make a difference on their own, after all 3% higher crit wont make a difference, everything else combined makes a big difference, especially reload speed and magazine size.

Now, let's take a look at this scenario: 1.44 for Tiberon and 0.85 for Prime (considering 1.0 as +150% crit chance and +120% crit damage) 

Normal Tiberon: +56% crit chance and +4.14x crit damage = 82% crit chance and 6.54x crit damage.

Prime: +35.7% crit chance and +3.06x  = 63.7% crit chance and 6.06x crit damage.

Yeah, prime loses on these stats and it still has -19% lower fire rate, but +40% magazine size and +12% reload speed, which affects DPS, and considering that both have very low magazines (42-30), you will be reloading a lot. So even though the regular Tiberon has a better riven in this scenario, the Prime will surpass it on the DPS run simply because it will be able to fire more bullets for longer periods of time, and reload faster.

And please consider that this is quite an extreme scenario. If normal version had 1.30 dispo the numbers would be:

Normal  Tiberon: 76.7% crit chance and 6.14x crit damage.

 

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People keep arguing about stats and how the upgraded variants will still be better under this new system but seem to completely ignore how it's already broken now... few pages back I posted picture showing how my new Kuva variant of the same weapon does UNDER HALF the damage of my old weapon... you tell people not to worry that old weapons won't make new ones irrelevant when it's already happening now, I don't even LIKE rivens or Kuva weapons (Permanent weapon stats are not the place for RNG IMO) and I'd be fine if they were removed altogether. But this change just makes getting newer weapons feel worse, and you know what I like more than I hate Rivens? Having a sense of progression.

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1 hour ago, HolySeraphin said:

Allowing you to lock stats wouldn't solve the problem, greedy players would roll 200+ times without locking just for the chance of selling it for 6k+ plat or something. As for the negative stats to counter the positives, I think this would destroy the whole reason I want that stat, because we would have a Nukor scenario (4x crit multiplier but 3% crit chance). However, limiting trading for only unrolled rivens would help reduce the insane prices of the market, because it is very unlikely to get god rolls on the firs try (although I got 3 very good rivens on the unveil).

The negative stat is temporary and the locking of the stat will allow you to change that. Basically, until you lock the riven -- that is, if you want to keep the riven and are committed to not trading it -- you will be forced with stats that counter-act each other. For instance, a +damage -multishot riven that has been locked will now allow you to keep the +damage, but you can roll for any stat. Basically, you can remove the -multishot and get something random, like -zoom or something in it's place, but only after the riven has been locked. This means god rolls become impossible before the riven has been locked. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, sorry about that. PM me if I wasn't clear enough 😅

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Just now, VolatileAcidity said:

The negative stat is temporary and the locking of the stat will allow you to change that. Basically, until you lock the riven -- that is, if you want to keep the riven and are committed to not trading it -- you will be forced with stats that counter-act each other. For instance, a +damage -multishot riven that has been locked will now allow you to keep the +damage, but you can roll for any stat. Basically, you can remove the -multishot and get something random, like -zoom or something in it's place, but only after the riven has been locked. This means god rolls become impossible before the riven has been locked. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, sorry about that. PM me if I wasn't clear enough 😅

I meant that it is unlikely that a person that wants crit chance will accept a negative crit damage stat, therefore they won't buy the riven.

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Just now, HolySeraphin said:

I meant that it is unlikely that a person that wants crit chance will accept a negative crit damage stat, therefore they won't buy the riven.

Aaaah. Well that's where the hard work comes in. You are rewarded for your effort in getting good rolls, and (objectively) good rolls are more likely. This will make riven prices crash, which is something I would rather see over the ridiculous prices they currently are, as rivens are just a lazy form of "balance".

Instead of rolling for god rolls, anyone can just grab an unrolled riven and get a decent/usable riven. People will sell rivens if they don't like the weapon/don't have the weapon, and with the overall understanding that decent stats are able to be had, almost to the point of guaranteed, prices would even out (hopefully).
 

To be completely honest, fixing the mess that is rivens is ridiculously hard. A hard 1 trade limit would hit the "god roll" riven sellers right where it hurts. They try to buy low, sell high, but if they can't re-sell, they are basically out of the business (which I think is fair).

All my ideas are merely speculations, attempts at fixing a broken feature. As someone in computer science, fixing that sh!t would be a freaking nightmare. Locking rivens/incremented buffs to vanilla is just what I thought would be the simplest fix.

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Just now, Sylonus said:

People keep arguing about stats and how the upgraded variants will still be better under this new system but seem to completely ignore how it's already broken now... few pages back I posted picture showing how my new Kuva variant of the same weapon does UNDER HALF the damage of my old weapon... you tell people not to worry that old weapons won't make new ones irrelevant when it's already happening now, I don't even LIKE rivens or Kuva weapons (Permanent weapon stats are not the place for RNG IMO) and I'd be fine if they were removed altogether. But this change just makes getting newer weapons feel worse, and you know what I like more than I hate Rivens? Having a sense of progression.

Comparing the numbers of Kuva Ogris vs Ogris (with the riven build)

Kuva Ogris has:

 -47% damage 

+4% crit chance

+9,78% status chance

It is semi-auto instead of charge, so no 0.3s charge time (It felt like 100% faster in a video)

3 ammo vs 5 (-40% magazine)

+0.4s reload speed (16% faster)

It feels more like a sidegrade, although it is indeed a bit weaker.

On a side note, having cold damage is not ideal on a status weapon, which was your case. Having toxin or eletricity would be far better because it would increase the corrosive damage and proc chance, therefore stripping more armor faster, especially because it has 83.3% status chance after mods while regular one has 73% status after mods. This would make quite the difference. And fire rate also helps DPS

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