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[DE]Connor

Kuva Weapon Rivens + Disposition Process Changes

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Just as the devs understand they can't nerf kohm so easily because the weapon is incredably sensitive to the 100% SC breakpoint.... they should also understand if they overbuff a non prime weapon disposition it'll become stronger than the prime. It should be very easy to calculate new DPSes with riven dispo changes however. Just as they have to be careful of shotgun 100% SC breakpoints they should also realize they can't make non primes drastically overshoot primes because of dispo changes and instead rig the non prime dispo changes to make the non primes become roughly equal to the prime at most.

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Why can't you nerf or balance the guns instead of the rivens. There's so many guns that use of a riven is pointless because the riven got nerfed into the ground do to weapon use. People have put in work a lot of work rolling rivens or money to get a good riven only to have it $%^/ on. There is no balance to the weapon system. Rivens are meant to make the gun op.  If you don't  want bosses to be one shot, make them harder. 

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I honestly would be lying if I didn't feel that "side grade" variants of weapons would suffer due to this as the Aklex Prime has for a while now. Although requiring 2 whole Lex Prime sets, DE for some reason chose to make it weaker than the Lex Prime dispo wise. I know that no one is perfect and mistakes happen but I hardly ever see Aklex/Lex Prime being used and yet the Aklex in the past was on the receiving end of several back to back nerfs. iirc there were at least 3 back to back patches that nerfed its dispo for some reason. I know that there's a TON of weapons and statistics to keep track of but because of the Aklex rivens being nerfed into the ground I fear that it'll happen again.

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" the Kuva weapons earned from Liches are top-of-the-line statwise."

Can you please look over the Kuva weapons then? The Kuva Kohm for instance is a massive downgrade compared to the regular Kohm, before even factoring in the worse Riven disposition. It loses 33.3% of the Kohm's base damage, and the damage fall off at max range goes all the way down to ~6% compared to the Kohm's ~50%. That's massive, and due to the short fall off  means the weapon is completely nonviable (just shooting the end of a hallway already reaches max fall off!).

This is silly. The weapon is already crippled by needing a fantastic roll to have the same base damage as normal, and then is further crippled by dealing 8x lower damage even with that fantastic roll. The 'benefits' it has over the regular are also almost completely useless (+ crit on a non crit viable shotgun, where the crit chance mod sucks? Minor +firerate on a gun you generally need to build firerate already?), or are useless in the face of those nerfs (+status means you can 100% status without a Riven, but dealing 8x lower damage means that it's still worse then a regular Kohm with no Riven for 100% status).

So, y'know. Please look over and actually buff these weapons. As is my enjoyment at getting what I consider a close to perfect Kuva Kohm after hours grinding my Lich died the instant I used it and found out it's the same as my regular Kohm, except S#&$tier.

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1 hour ago, More-L said:

While the idea of this change seems very good, I feel like the actual implementation won't be. The difference between every variant of a weapon varies quite a bit from weapon to weapon, there will be at least a few situations where the "weaker" weapon is actually stronger because of a riven, which may cause more use of the weapon only for it to be nerfed, for people to move on to a variation of it (because it has less use) only for that to be nerfed and the normal one to be buffed and so on...

That's a general issue with rivens and popularity-based disposition, isn't it? It's not specific to this change.

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Not sure if it was intentional or not but I do think this might have been carried over to the kitgun rivens. 

 

Edited by Kevvin
updated forum page
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Something needs to be done about warframe powers that use melee mods (khora atlas and gara). i have a good riven for the kogake that makes whipclaw really good. i put 3 forma into the kogake prime for a total of 6 polarities just to make it work. with these changes my kogake prime becomes useless and i will have to then build the normal ones and catalyst and put 6 forma into it just to then have a melee that isnt great to use but makes whipclaw really good. something needs to change with modding these abilities cause its way to much rng of getting a riven, having it be melee, having it be for a melee that has a high disposition, that then gets a good roll. i dont know what the correct answer to this problem is but ive been dreading riven melee changes for months in fear of kogake getting trashed and my time effort and resources getting thrown out.

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If this is the case, you need to add UI support for it.

It would be very nice to be able to pull up a Riven Mod and have a display showing all the weapons in its compatible "family" with their respective dispositions.

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Oh great... just what we need more variables for rivens.... not only will this cause confusion, due to having in some cases 3 (maybe even 4) different versions of weapons, in the market etc but it will essentially just push us to use the 'base version' over the others.... which funnily enough in most cases won't have forma on them and we'll either need to waste even more of our built ones or just buy more....
 

Seriously pretty much EVERYTHING in this update has been about pushing forma usage.... this must be the new 'cash cow' for plat sales then and it honestly feels like DE are getting a little desperate for money....

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Somewhat related, new weapons should really start with low riven disposition. Without a riven, non-riven Kuva Twin Stubba is stronger than my perfect riven Viper Wraith (which has gotten two disposition nerfs), and the Twin Stubba starts with 1.0 disposition. That's ridiculous.

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The only thing that worries me about this is, with previous balance changes, rivens that already had their rolls weren't changed, this was fantastic because it meant that they couldn't reroll without their riven being effectively nerfed, but doesn't undermine the time they spent getting the hundreds of thousands of kuva required to get it to that roll.

This looks like it can be applied to existing rivens retroactively, changing the max stats of the Riven when equipped is much different to changing the max stats of a Riven when next rolled. Which isn't going to make many people very happy, especially when you already had a (albeit worse) pre-established buffing and nerfing system in place prior to this.

I like the changes, I just fear for the people who spent days farming kuva for their Tiberon riven


I haven't been paying attention to riven re-balancing since the first wave, and at that point, it sounded like this was what they were going to do and I just assumed that's what they did. Thank you to all who informed me politely.

Edited by Disrevoid
Fixing misinformation
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Sorry DE, this is a terrible idea. I can't get behind this at all. This is just going to make things even more confusing and irritating than they already are. All because you made some powerful variants of some unpopular weapons? This is completely the wrong decision.

2 minutes ago, Disrevoid said:

The only thing that worries me about this is, with previous balance changes, rivens that already had their rolls weren't changed, this was fantastic because it meant that they couldn't reroll without their riven being effectively nerfed, but doesn't undermine the time they spent getting the hundreds of thousands of kuva required to get it to that roll.

I'm not sure where you got this idea. It has never worked this way. I track my riven stats with a spreadsheet and they do indeed change when disposition changes.

Edited by auxy
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2 minutes ago, Disrevoid said:

This looks like it can be applied to existing rivens retroactively, changing the max stats of the Riven when equipped is much different to changing the max stats of a Riven when next rolled. Which isn't going to make many people very happy, especially when you already had a (albeit worse) pre-established buffing and nerfing system in place prior to this.

Riven disposition updates have always been retroactively applied.

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I'm sure I'm not the only one concerned about how these changes will be handled with existing Rivens. I'm all down for this change, and figured it'd happened eventually, but I'm concerned for the same reason. For example, my Kronen Locti-Cronisus is my favourite Riven in my Arsenal, and I only actively use two, maybe three Rivens, simply because I'm not into grinding out Rivens to get one for a weapon I like. I've invested 3 Forma into my Kronen Prime as a result to fit it in there, and one more is planned to change the stance polarity. I'd like to be able to keep the Riven as a Kronen Prime riven, not a Kronen riven. I'm not saying this because I like how high the stats are, but simply because I love tonfas and my Kronen Prime, and I'd hate for my Riven to essentially be ripped away and force me to invest even more time and Forma into the normal Kronen.

Sorry if this doesn't really make sense. I'm not in the best frame of mind right now.

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I like where this is going. 

Are there plans on having different dispositions for 1-handed and 2-handed zaws?  its the same strike, but its a different gameplay with 1-handed or 2-handed grip

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I love this change overall, but in some cases where the weapon is a sidegrade it feels like too much; for example the kuva kohm. With the reduction in base damage and mag size as well as the riven disposition, in many cases it is actually a downgrade. I have 2 kohm rivens with status chance, but because of the dispo being dropped both perform better on the base kohm than the kuva kohm. I like the weaker versions not having their dispo gutted by popular upgraded variants, but I feel like the upgraded/endgame variant should still be slightly better with the riven since they are harder to get, otherwise what's the point of getting them. 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)MJ-Cena7 said:

Zhuge might be better than zhuge prime due to better dispo etc 

Zhuge is already better than Zhuge Prime because it doesn't kill you. I've got Riven for the former which turned the latter into a one shot kill even on a Warframe with 300 armour and over 1000 health. I've never touched Zhuge Prime after ranking it up.

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The main problem is that this seems to be treated as a replacement for regular weapon balance passes.

The vast majority of players don't have high end rivens, so the idea of inhibiting the power of a kuva weaåpm by giving it a lower disposition than the normal variant, just kinda throws weapon balance out of whack for everyone else, doesn't it?

Like, now it's a marginal improvement for people with very good rivens, that's nice, but for newer players the kuva weapons just dumpsters everything else and that's fine?

On a more theoretical note, riven dispositions as a concept just seem to be based on fundamentally flawed logic. 

You have a normal weapon and a prime weapon, and the prime version does lets say +50% damage compared to the normal version.

With different riven dispositions that effective +50% difference is being lowered based on both the difference in disposition and the roll itself..

If you have a bad riven the difference might only get dropped to +35%, but if you had a decent riven it might get dropped all the way to +10%.

So if you have a near perfect riven, there will be circumstances where that difference becomes negative. The primed versions advantage gets dropped to -10%.

So what you essentially end up with is that you have people who are new to the game using, lets say normal rubico for eidolons. Then you have the majority of people using rubico prime, but then you have people with +cc +cd +ms -zoom rivens or whatever, suddenly using normal rubico again.

 

What is the point of making it like that?
If the logic is that otherwise the prime would be too strong with a good riven.
Well why isn't it too strong without one then?

Now. extend this logic from two versions of one weapon, to all weapons.

The logic is based on the idea that game balance is only based on weapons strength relative to each other, and I think that holds up pretty well for the game at large.

Riven dispositions as a replacement for regular balance passes just doesn't make sense to me.

It makes much more sense if you just say that if the difference between two guns is +50%, then it stays at +50% regardless of the roll on your riven.

 

This change really isn't that big of a deal, but I think it's worth explaining at length why it seems nonsenical.
Just because with most changes, regardless of whether I like them or not I can at least make sense of the vast majority.

Edited by Senguash
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Dont do this, rivens are already a meatrodded system that, unlike some stances that were smooth and had full player control in melee 2.0 but now are riddled with both animation locks and snaps in animations, actually needs to be gutted and reworked.

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This is an interesting change. I like that it gives us reasons to hold onto our older weapons when their primes come out.

My immediate concern is how the Riven's stats will be displayed when viewed in a system that is agnostic to the weapon it is going on.

  • the modding menu
  • linking a Riven in chat
  • perhaps most importantly, viewing a Riven in trade

If you can find an elegant way to address this, I have no further concerns.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Going forward, weapon dispositions will be tuned per weapon, instead of per weapon family. For instance, this means a Kohm Riven will have a disposition of 1.4 on a regular Kohm, but only a disposition of 1 when applied to a Kuva Kohm. 

That is fantastic news. The only question I have is what took so damn long.

Please also strongly consider re-balancing the shotguns status mechanic, or perhaps even the entire class.

Right now there is a disproportionate amount of worth in a weapon with shotgun mechanics being able to hit 100% status chance before multishot and an equally disproportionate jump in power. Not to mention it is a very unintuitive system since it works so differently than the rifle or beam mechanics.

The Kohm is an example that comes to mind. It HAS to have a riven to hit that coveted 100% status chance and the instability of riven strength also makes the value of that weapon unstable.

Edited by ADirtyMonk
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ok great but how about buffing the kuva ogris because it's arguably worse then the base version

Edited by Rachnera
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3 hours ago, Ovakyn said:

This system makes average weapons suffer because people like to use them.

and it often seems like it only takes like, 10 people using a Weapon over a few months to get a Weapon nerfed. Weapons that aren't even popular w/ Youtube/Twitch and ergo the 99% of the Community, just randomly going down. you're telling me that a ton of people suddenly started using that Weapon? yeah right.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Rivens have lowered stats on Kuva weapons, because they have a different disposition.

 

xt4ZDVf.png

I mean, If you want all weapons to perform equally just give us one weapon of each basic type. It would be easier for you. 

 

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