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[DE]Connor

Kuva Weapon Rivens + Disposition Process Changes

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I think instead of starting to explode everything as it changes 100% according to usage rate, it should start tweaking slowly or to balance like:

Tigris family, Tigris has always wide usage among people for destroying a single unit in the face, each variant depending on your progression. The entire family (Tigris / Sancti / Prime) contributes in lowering the disposition, so applying ONLY each of the variants usage for their own disposition would really help to reflect on more accurate disposition the TIgris riven worth.

Hek family, Normal Hek is wide known MR4 must have weapon, but Vaykor Hek itself is not really a wide spread used weapon like the non-variant counterpart. I'm hoping it would reflect better with the changes this workshop brings.

NIkana family, Nikana right now is quite below mediocre in lategame but its dispo dragged down by Nikana Prime, buff the dispo on Nikana so that it can match the performance of the riven on Nikana Prime (not that it would since Blood Rush no longer scales with modded CC).

Gram family, obviously Gram itself is as good as forgotten once the Prime released, apply the usual dispo change onto the Gram Prime dispo, but keep Gram's as is until further changes.

Zaws, while they dont have specific family classification, single handed grip and two handed grip zaws performs differently as they are different weapon type per strike, so separate dispo changes might be able to apply for 2 different grip types for the same strike.

...et cetera.

TL;DR: My point is start the changes by ensuring the less used weapon in the family to get higher dispo in the first incoming dispo changes after this weapon's personal-instead-of-family's dispo applies, while accordingly avoid nerfing the dispo of existing variant except obvious broken ones like Gram 5/5 circles dispo on Prime.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

We hope you’re having fun Vanquishing Kuva Liches left and right on PC

Rather avoid it as a whole.

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oof

guess my status strun wraith riven gonna get destroyed. Time to rebuy/forma Mk1 Strun. 🤣

 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

as we don’t intend to make any base variants explicitly better than their upgraded counterparts,

I'd like to point out that what you've intended with rivens has never worked out in practice.

Not trying to be mean, here, but I seriously do not believe this is a good direction to go in. This is going to make an already badly designed, counter intuitive and overall problematic system even more trouble to juggle, and present even more opportunities for you to anger and frustrate your players.

Rivens don't need another bandaid. Rivens need less RNG, a flattening, and a massive simplification. You're going in the exact opposite direction you should be, and you're going to pay for it later.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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Alright, I get the intent, and I'm not even going to bother going into whether it's good or bad - but how will this be implemented in the riven rolling screen?

Will the riven rolling screen allow to switch between the final stats for different variants?

Because let's say I want a very specific crit chance or status roll on a prime gun. I roll the riven, but it shows me the stats as if it were for the base gun, meaning those values are inflated vs what I would actually get. Let's say I get a +status chance roll that would make my prime gun hit 100% SC - but when I slap it on my prime gun, oops! Not 100% SC anymore since the actual +SC% value is lower due to the lowered disposition not reflected in the rolling screen.
 

And if you do implement separate variant stat displays in the rolling screen - well that's going to be a whole other UI mess / bugfest. I've already had a few instances last week where stat rolls for my Drakgoon riven were grossly inflated in the rolling screen vs the actual end product, so slap this issue onto it and you've got a party going.

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2 hours ago, Andikki said:

That's a general issue with rivens and popularity-based disposition, isn't it? It's not specific to this change.

Well yeah but I was talking about literally advertised as weaker weapons being stronger than a supposed upgrade of them because of a riven even when both have a riven. The general issue does still exist, but it is not currently an issue that applies to a weapon family, when one weapon in that family gets better in every single way, anyone who uses that weapon type has no reason to use a variant.

Lets say you have every Karak variant, and a good riven, because of the dispo the normal one is better than any of the others. So you literally have 0 reason to use any of the other variants, then because everyone realizes this the normal karak gets its dispo nerfed and the wraith is now the best, everyone uses that then it gets nerfed and everyone uses normal variant. And the cycle infinitely repeats for every disposition change to that weapon family.

This is not really currently an issue aside from a few select "most effective weapon ever" people, even then they still would have a choice of a weapon to use when dispo gets nerfed. 

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Trouble with doing dispo per weapon.... you're going to reach a point that a Prime/Syndicate/Wraith weapon isn't necessarily a straight upgrade from the base one, because the PSW version has minor bonuses like changing damage type or slightly higher crit and lower status, and the base was a whopping 1.5 dispo

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Yeah I'm with most of the other people in this thread. I actively avoid supposedly better weapons (Nikana Prime) Because a different variant has a better disposition (Dragon Nikana). One of the best points of lots of these weapons is that they will be a significant upgrade to the previous versions (Looking at Tekko and Stradavar) in particular but if I can crit more and get more than 20% more damage due to disposition difference then there's no point to me using the prime. I understand that this is trying to even out the playing field but I worry that this will invalidate lots of "upgrades". The Hek/Vaykor have this issue already where the two weapons are a sidegrade. Change the disposition of the Hek to be better than the Vaykor and you've made the Vaykor obsolete.

Lower the disposition of the Braton Prime and bring the Braton up to a 5 and there's basically no point to using the Prime. I understand what they're doing here but unless it's like a marginal difference of say .1-.5 in the riven then there's a significant chance that the original weapon will outclass the upgrade, and I understand that Rivens are meant to balance weapons out and promote other playstyles, but if you make upgrades so that they aren't gonna be new meta, then you'll probably see worse stagnation here than with the current state of rivens. I understand there needs to be an improvement but this ain't it chief.

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4 hours ago, Raikh said:

We already have the dilemma with Dragon Nikana and Nikana Prime. Nikana Prime is the distinctively better weapon but Dragon Nikana has a 1.35 dispo, while Nikana P has 0.5. This leads to Dragon Nikana being the stronger weapon with an accordingly strong riven as that allows it to outpace the basic stat advantage of Nikana P.

Is that a problem? The vast majority of players who don't use Rivens will aspire to get the new fancy weapon, and those that do have a top tier Riven get to feel smart about knowing to use the old weapon instead since it ends up being the stronger one with a good Riven.

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So say you have a standard Rubico. Its dispo is higher than the prime variant, which therefore makes your Rubico Riven better on standard Rubico than Rubico Prime. Which then could cause it to make more sense to use standard Rubico over Rubico Prime. Effectively causing variant weapons to be used less.

I understand what you were trying to do, but this just doesn't make much sense in my eyes.

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1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

 You're going in the exact direction you should be, and you're going to pay for it later.

I hope you made a typo and missed out the word not 🙂

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3 minutes ago, MaXimillion_Zero said:

Is that a problem? The vast majority of players who don't use Rivens will aspire to get the new fancy weapon, and those that do have a top tier Riven get to feel smart about knowing to use the old weapon instead since it ends up being the stronger one with a good Riven.

In my opinion, yes. Collection aside and me fancying carrying full prime loadouts aside, it'll end up punishing players who go for the cool and fancy because say a new(ish) player (Saying like MR8-14 for this example) wants to run arbitrations or some semi-end game content, say Kuva Floods and the like, they're loading up their 5 forma Nikana Prime, say their Kuva Tonkor, and I don't know, say Aklex Prime, and someone running something super off meta but hyper compensated loadout like Telos Boltor, Acrid, and Lecta (not secura), with full 3+1- rivens and basically make a full "top tier" "full grinded" loadout inneffective because the man had about say 1500 platinum for 1.5 disposition rivens. Now, I understand power creep in this game but do we really want to have the riven market for base and off meta weapons to skyrocket and make even those more innaccessable to newer players?

I go around buying trash weapon rivens for 50-150 platinum and have fun with it but if those become meta because the more accessible weapons have poor dispositions we're about to have lots more power creep issues than a couple dozen great weapons that get perfected by rivens and having others be contenders for the second slot.

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Okey. So what are the point of this change?

If you nerfing only other variants of a regular weapon, you actually making them a way less useful.

Sounds logical. What’s your goal? If your goal to make a balance in the rivens case, this decision just making it more chaotic than ever. „These increases will not huge” – you say, but how about the decrease in the „upgraded” parts? Anyway, it’s like a huge nerf actually for nearly all weapons. Which is already not improve this whole situation.

DE, you should aim more on the enemy scales/end game content, because it’s like a non-existing stuff. That’s how you can improve your game and it’s effect nearly on everything. I was so glad when the Lich hunt began, but honestly, that was enjoyable only for a short time and I was even lucky because got only once a duplicate from an already got weapon. Still, it’s boring now and giving the same feel of farming and farming.

Rivens need to be change, indeed. But if it gonna be changing, then like in this way? Really?

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1 minute ago, Winternacht said:

Sounds logical. What’s your goal? If your goal to make a balance in the rivens case, this decision just making it more chaotic than ever. „These increases will not huge” – you say, but how about the decrease in the „upgraded” parts? Anyway, it’s like a huge nerf actually for nearly all weapons. Which is already not improve this whole situation.

Imagine for a sec the (nearly unused) Akvasto Prime gets a lower disposition than the (next to useless) Akvasto. For late game content they potentially will take away many weapon's viability just so that some "meta" will disappear, and that's not going to help meta shifting away from high priced rivens at all.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Crackle2012 said:

There is no need to include sarcasm

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crackle2012 said:

(Pretty please with an OP melee riven and Prime Reach with a Maiming strike on top!) 

Not really setting a great example there tbh.

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16 minutes ago, CoinflipWolfe said:

Imagine for a sec the (nearly unused) Akvasto Prime gets a lower disposition than the (next to useless) Akvasto. For late game content they potentially will take away many weapon's viability just so that some "meta" will disappear, and that's not going to help meta shifting away from high priced rivens at all.

If the Akvasto Prime is nearly unused, why would its disposition get reduced? The while point of disposition changes is to raise them for unused weapons and lower them for popular ones.

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5 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Damn how'd you do all those graphics, that was epic.

Copy and paste from the Warframe Wiki

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5 hours ago, ErsatzInsomniac said:

So when someone advertises a riven with X stats and the buyer puts it on their weapon only to find it has Y stats and pitches a fit will you come mediate the issue?

This is an absolutely horrible idea. It's slapping a new bandage on top of an old dirty bandage and hoping the infection will just go away.

Just suck it up and deal with the problem of the few "untouchable" rivens like the Kohm and not break everything else in the process. The riven market fully understands and deals with hyper tuned rivens on new primes and their decreasing dispo as it balances out and has more or less accepted that dispo changes are now regular again.

You want to completely upturn the system all over?

There is already an available weapons thing in the corner for riven previews that shows all the weapon variants the riven works on. Having the stats on the riven adjust in the preview based off of what you have selected there is an easy solution for this.

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56 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I hope you made a typo and missed out the word not 🙂

Oof, thanks, it was.

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I'm actually cool with this.

Riven dispos weren't meant to make strong weapons stronger, they were made in order to bring weaker and less-used weapons up to speed. Problem was, they based it on popularity instead of power, meaning strong weapons got stronger, and no one still used the weak weapons.

Now that they're finally accounting in DPS, this is a good step in the right direction. (Unless, of course, they screw it, like they give variation weapons that are arguably weaker dispositions that are lower just because they're 'upgrades')

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I’m pretty happy with how DE’s been attempting to address the balance issues regarding Riven mods as of late.

  • Consistent and predicable disposition changes.
  • Balancing disposition around both usage and power.
  • And now separate dispositions between variants of the same weapon.

Ideally (imo of course) high MR variants should be strong enough that a Riven is never necessary for them to perform well. Then the purpose of Rivens would shift to bringing up lesser variants up to par, allowing for a more consistent damage/effectiveness ceiling then the current situation (e.g. Gram Prime with a 5/5 disposition). 

The main issue now in my mind is that certain weapons will never compare to their better variants due to their base stats, regardless of Riven disposition adjustments. Dunno how I’d go about addressing that honestly, maybe changing Rivens so they directly modify base stats instead of how they work currently.

Regardless, I’d love to see these changes to the Riven system somewhere down the line (especially if Riven’d weapons will be sidegrades to Primes and similar variants rather then being superior):

  1. Make obtaining stats less RNG-related. One suggestion I saw floating around that I enjoyed was making a sort of “shop” in which players could use Kuva to purchase different stats for their Riven, with certain ones costing much more Kuva in comparison to others. Or just let people lock in their chosen stats for a scaling cost.
  2. Remove the random range of stat rolls. Currently you can have two Rivens for the same weapon, with the same stat combinations but with noticeably different numbers (e.g. +165% crit chance vs +205%). 
  3. Make Kuva siphons more interesting to farm. Engage the player with a operator-related task and reward good performance with bonus Kuva, rather then having siphons be a snore-fest focused on waiting for the Kuva cloud to spawn.

I’m definitely looking forward to seeing how the Riven system will evolve in the future after this announcement.

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I think this may be the single best change I have seen made to the Riven system.

I still have a long list of gripes with Rivens, but this is great.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb MaXimillion_Zero:

Is that a problem? The vast majority of players who don't use Rivens will aspire to get the new fancy weapon, and those that do have a top tier Riven get to feel smart about knowing to use the old weapon instead since it ends up being the stronger one with a good Riven.

Its in so far a problem that newly introduced loot is less attractive for veteran palyers who are more likely to have invested into Rivens. The whole point of the game is acquiring loot in some shape or form. If suddenly new items are not attractive for already invested players whats in it for them? Why should they keep playing when future weapons are only worse than what they already have because of their investment in the game, not even because the stats are worse.

I mean imagine someone really likes the Corinth, got a riven for it, forma'ed it 100 times for the memes and then COrinth Prime was announced. Prime Announcements are usually quite joyful for the people who like the non-primed variants as they get an upgraded version and form a lore point the true fullest potential version of a weapon. The stats look great a solid improvement without pushing the power creep too much. But exactly because it isn't mindlessly powercreeped that purple mod in the corner of your normal Cornith jsut laughs at you as the lower disposition of the primed variant eats away at what was suppsoed to be an upgrade and that player as a vivid Corinth lover has no reason to try and get the best version Cornith can be.

On a surface level it might not look bad when both variants already exist and have been for years. But going forward with new content and weapons it can become a serious issue.
Its a backwards philosophy. Similarly it always looks great if new content is available to new players and they can choose and be at the newest stage of everything but in reality you are overfeeding those who already have too much on their plate to swallow, while those who already had theirs ages ago and begin to starve keep starving because the content is not for them.

 

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