Heavy Attack Melee Builds - What do you think?

[CrispyJieffs4Sale]

I've been seeing a new kind of melee build cropping up from the new heavy attack move, which have been widely disregarded by the community due to it costing your entire combo, resulting in its  incompatibility with incredible mods like Blood Rush and others. 

https://youtu.be/v4ZoFjM2CRc

TLDR, use weapons with guaranteed slash proc on heavy attacks, mod for high raw damage, so PPP and CO, Attack speed is mandatory for wind-up, slap in 2 60/60 mods of choice, with Killing Blow and Corrupt Charge making this build whole with heavy attack damage and instant X2 counter. Crit damage and range mods are optional. 

What do you think? The video shows its effectiveness against lv 165 corrupted heavies  and manic bombards (its existence I wasn't even aware of). This also brings some other mods to mind that can shine with this build, like Life Strike for the deathless. Maybe one can argue that you can replace PPP with another mod? This is such a new way to play melee, that I am eager to hear your thoughts and discuss it with you, fellow Tenno. 

Edit:

I found this video here, showing a Fragor P sporting more or less the same kinda build, wiping the Kuva's Fortress floor with cloned degenerates. Looks tasty

[trst]

Yeah the builds and attack itself are a lot better than some people are giving it credit for.

Plus setups with Bloodrush do work if you fit combo efficiency in, like Focus Energy or Zenurik. When capped to 90% you lose at most 22 hits worth of combo per heavy attack.

[NoLazyShadow]

Только что, trst сказал:

When capped to 90% you lose at most 22 hits worth of combo per heavy attack.

As for now combo efficency is broken. I have maxed Zenurik active and yet charge attack consume 100% of combo counter. Same with mods

[SyriosOne]

34 minutes ago, CrispyJieffs4Sale said:

This is such a new way to play melee, that I am eager to hear your thoughts and discuss it with you, fellow Tenno.

I only see Spin2Win 2.0 with "cheaper" Mods and only one instead of 2 Buttons. I think that is a huge oversight from DE and should be changed asap. Just a matter of time before everyone will start the same disscusions we already had for month with the old Spin2Win.

[CrispyJieffs4Sale]

I do have to agree with what you say, even the video frames it so. I was really tired of spam ctrl + e until my fingers strain, back when I ran sleepquinox to farm focus in adaro. 

I'm not really trying to disagree with you here,in fact I can empathize with your views. I suppose I can build my weapons this way until I get tired of that too. This kind of build variety may be superficial, but I play warframe for all the playsales it can offer😊. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by CrispyJieffs4Sale

[birdobash]

On 2019-11-12 at 3:21 AM, SyriosOne said:

I only see Spin2Win 2.0 with "cheaper" Mods and only one instead of 2 Buttons. I think that is a huge oversight from DE and should be changed asap. Just a matter of time before everyone will start the same disscusions we already had for month with the old Spin2Win.

I don't think heavy attack builds will ever get on the broken level of meme strike spin2win builds, 1: they're much slower, 2: you are required to be grounded during the full animation, 3: you don't move fast through tilesets when doing them, 4: they don't have as much range as spin2win did.

Just because something can 1-2 shot a 165 simulacrum enemy/enemies doesn't mean it's broken, by that logic the twin roggas is one of the most broken weapons in the game since it can 1-2 shot literally anything up to the same level. Many other factors have a part to play in determining whether something is too strong or not, and heavy attacks have enough limitations and requirements that I think they'll be very viable but not broken.

They are quite fun tho if you rebind the heavy attack button to something that's easier to press, gotta love walking along level 70 lich survivals while shredding anything that gets within 5 meters with my spinning machete wraith.

Edited November 20, 2019 by birdobash

[Skaleek]

I quite enjoy the dagger zaw heavy attack build.

[AlmightyPancake]

18 minutes ago, birdobash said:

I don't think heavy attack builds will ever get on the broken level of meme strike spin2win builds, 1: they're much slower, 2: you are required to be grounded during the full animation, 3: you don't move fast through tilesets when doing them, 4: they don't have as much range as spin2win did.

Just because something can 1-2 shot a 165 simulacrum enemy/enemies doesn't mean it's broken, by that logic the twin roggas is one of the most broken weapons in the game since it can 1-2 shot literally anything up to the same level. Many other factors have a part to play in determining whether something is too strong or not, and heavy attacks have enough limitations and requirements that I think they'll be very viable but not broken.

They are quite fun tho if you rebind the heavy attack button to something that's easier to press, gotta love walking along level 70 lich survivals while shredding anything that gets within 5 meters with my spinning machete wraith.

I'm definitely in agreement with you on this one. Just wiping the floor with a cluster of enemies in the simulacrum doesn't necessarily make the weapon or build OP. I've been testing and modifying this build on my own both in and out of the simulacrum and while it does feel like spin2win2.0 in the simulacrum (I've even named my new machete zaw after it) in a real mission it does not have the same fast, fluid pattern to it that made maiming strike so quick to clear entire maps. My playstyle with it is much different, requiring me to do more than just ctrl+e.

tl:dr: While this is definitely the successor to maiming spin2win, it is far more balanced and restricted.

Edited November 20, 2019 by AlmightyPancake

[Tyreaus]

Personally, I'm not that big a fan that the optimal / popular melee builds seem to focus quite a bit on just regular attacks or just heavy attacks (though you can get away with building a bit of combo on the latter, it's quite ancillary). You can build for combo efficiency on a regular attack build to get a decent amount of both but that option seems to fall to the wayside attention-wise. I guess because they are more technically demanding or limiting?

Then again, that could be because I'm already familiar with the heavy attack and blood rush builds and am working on making my Nikana Prime a hybrid _{just need a combo duration and efficiency riven}, so... ^^;

[schilds]

6 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

ou can build for combo efficiency on a regular attack build to get a decent amount of both but that option seems to fall to the wayside attention-wise. I guess because they are more technically demanding or limiting?

It's expensive. Without a riven (which can get you to the cap by itself) you need Zen, a combo efficiency mod and a combo duration mod. You could go with Naramon, but then you need a second efficiency mod.  Losing two mod slots can halve your damage or worse. Want to pick a different focus tree? 3 mods.

There may be some specific loadouts that can make it work, otherwise you need a riven.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by schilds

[Tyreaus]

Just now, schilds said:

It's expensive. Without a riven (which can get you to the cap by itself) you need Zen, another mod and a combo duration mod. You could go with Naramon, but then you need a second efficiency mod.  Losing two mod slots can halve your damage or worse. Want to pick a different focus tree? 3 mods.

There may be some specific loadouts that can make it work, otherwise you need a riven.

Pretty much what I'm finding, too. ATM I'm trying to get a nikana riven even just to get that 30% (or close to it) so I can slap on Reflex Coil, get the 90% cap for the occasional 12x heavy attack, hopefully get a little extra combo duration to make upkeep of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds a little easier, all paired with Naramon (since I dislike the "drop the entire combo counter" of the other schools, really messes things up if someone's running a nuke frame in pubs or I get unlucky with enemy spawns / elevators). Just waiting for the game to cooperate on that front...

Really, the "problem" (if one considers it such) as I see it is that Blood Rush, and Weeping Wounds by extension, are fighting over the combo counter with the heavy attack. I guess that makes it balanced, in a way, so you can't build Blood Rush and heavy attacks together very well? But even if it is balanced, DE was advertising this as a great way to diversify melee and make it more technically demanding, yet it's largely become either A: the same button-mashing as before or B: a slower mashing of a different button.

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, birdobash said:

I don't think heavy attack builds will ever get on the broken level of meme strike spin2win builds, 1: they're much slower, 2: you are required to be grounded during the full animation, 3: you don't move fast through tilesets when doing them, 4: they don't have as much range as spin2win did.

Just because something can 1-2 shot a 165 simulacrum enemy/enemies doesn't mean it's broken, by that logic the twin roggas is one of the most broken weapons in the game since it can 1-2 shot literally anything up to the same level. Many other factors have a part to play in determining whether something is too strong or not, and heavy attacks have enough limitations and requirements that I think they'll be very viable but not broken.

They are quite fun tho if you rebind the heavy attack button to something that's easier to press, gotta love walking along level 70 lich survivals while shredding anything that gets within 5 meters with my spinning machete wraith.

Agreed. Despite their potency (and lordy, mine is potent) I have been encountering troubles, usually with crowds of enemies.

As far as I can tell, heavy attacks basically take the shotgun approach to balancing. Since you can't block at all during the wind-up, and even a fast weapon will still take a third of a second of wind-up (much more with a slower one), which when combined with the fact Melee actually uses melee ranges now, leaves you open for this to happen if you're not careful:

which the faster-moving and swinging quick attack setups will have less trouble with. In my eyes, that's how it should be. Different strengths and weaknesses for different builds.

 

Heavy attacks are burst damage, Light attacks are sustained DPS.

 

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Really, the "problem" (if one considers it such) as I see it is that Blood Rush, and Weeping Wounds by extension, are fighting over the combo counter with the heavy attack. I guess that makes it balanced, in a way, so you can't build Blood Rush and heavy attacks together very well? But even if it is balanced, DE was advertising this as a great way to diversify melee and make it more technically demanding, yet it's largely become either A: the same button-mashing as before or B: a slower mashing of a different button.

Heavy attack builds can still make use of regular attacks if they need to or if you want to diversify things. Or you can not specialise in either - a Jack of all Trades can, depending on your loadout, be better than a master of one.

[VentiGlondi]

On 2019-11-12 at 9:21 AM, SyriosOne said:

I only see Spin2Win 2.0 with "cheaper" Mods and only one instead of 2 Buttons. I think that is a huge oversight from DE and should be changed asap. Just a matter of time before everyone will start the same disscusions we already had for month with the old Spin2Win.

The old maiming strike was a ball of damage that killed things by moving rom the spawn point to the extraction.

The heavy attack builds, while probably dealing way more damage per hit, require you to stop to perform the slow wind up animation.

Even if the heavy attacks are more powerful, the lack of mobility of spamming slide attacks makes them more balanced. Also they're limited to a cone in front of you, not a 360 spin.

If anything people are going to go back to complaining about spamming radial nuke abilities, but even those aren't as mobile as maiming strike builds.

Edited November 20, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[(XBOX)HERODI0N]

What is the difference between wind up speed and melee attack speed? (Should I put primed fury on a heavy attack build?)

[White_Matter]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)HERODI0N said:

What is the difference between wind up speed and melee attack speed? (Should I put primed fury on a heavy attack build?)

Wind up speed is basically the "charge" speed. The animation you execute before you use your heavy. I don't think regular speed mods have any effect on it.

Amalgam organ shatter or Killing blow make the animation quicker. The 60% on those mods don't stack however. With only one the twin basolk's wind up is 0.4 sec. With the second one installed it is 0.3.  Negligible difference.

[plasmox]

16 hours ago, Skaleek said:

I quite enjoy the dagger zaw heavy attack build.

I've been primarily using a dagger zaw for my heavy attack build. The heavy attack for stinging thorn gives slash procs, and the bleeds are quite crazy. The damage is high enough even with 5 mods to kill lvl 135-165 enemies without any problems. That said, you can put in 3 other mods of your choice for utility, i.e. life strike, gladiator vice, gladiator might (for higher initial damage and crit from gladiator).  And top that off with having an arcane slot, it can be a great weapon to use on a lot of frames.

I find it very useful on frames that can speed up that animation, and stances where the heavy attack doesn't stagger quite as much. Which is another reason why i use the dagger zaw, as the stance gives 2 heavy attack hits that doesn't lock you in place too long. The tatsu for example is on the other end of the spectrum, where its stance has a massive wind-up and does not play well into the way most folks play warframe.

For the most part, even using a heavy attack build, the normal combo system still does plenty of damage to kill all the enemies on the star chart within a single quick attack hit, and the heavy attacks are there for the more beefier enemies.

[DrBorris]

Personally I feel like the fact that this is the way we build for heavy attacks is just another sign of how fundamentally broken heavy attacks are. The system is clearly intended to have you weave normal and heavy attacks together, but instead we are forced to gimp one or the other in order to get a decent damage output. 

Being able to do the job isn't a sign of good game design.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by DrBorris

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

19 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Personally I feel like the fact that this is the way we build for heavy attacks is just another sign of how fundamentally broken heavy attacks are. The system is clearly intended to have you weave normalized heavy attacks together, but instead we are forced to gimp one or the other in order to get a decent damage output. 

Being able to do the job isn't a sign of good game design.  

I think one can argue that "heavy attack builds" were not what DE intended with the recent changes but I don't think that inherently makes them broken.  DE has adjusted said types of builds in the past (i.e nuke frames with minimal effort) but I don't think DE will change/fix heavy attack builds.

Only using heavy attacks has it's downsides, namely that you're not efficiently clearing things.  Granted the update just dropped for consoles not long ago but I think DE has done a decent job with melee 2.0.  It has some rough spots for sure.  But I think the way heavy attacks turned out are fine.

[DrBorris]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think one can argue that "heavy attack builds" were not what DE intended with the recent changes but I don't think that inherently makes them broken.  DE has adjusted said types of builds in the past (i.e nuke frames with minimal effort) but I don't think DE will change/fix heavy attack builds.

Only using heavy attacks has it's downsides, namely that you're not efficiently clearing things.  Granted the update just dropped for consoles not long ago but I think DE has done a decent job with melee 2.0.  It has some rough spots for sure.  But I think the way heavy attacks turned out are fine.

I don't see heavy attacks as broken, as for the most part they don't do anything normal melee attacks can't do (this is a bad thing). Sure, heavy attacks can deal a large sum of damage in a single hit, but... why gimp your mobility and melee fluidness when you can get a similar TTK with normal attacks? We literally have a dedicated combo in every stance for single target DPS, heavy attacks filling the same niche has mad them effectively redundant. Fragor Prime is really the only example where this breaks as a heavy attack build will far superseded your single target DPS combo, but that is only because if its unique perk.

For heavy attacks to be useful they need to do something normal melee attacks can't. And seeing as normal melee attacks already have DPS and mobility, the last major factor left is range.

Also, Melee 3.0*

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

19 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I don't see heavy attacks as broken, as for the most part they don't do anything normal melee attacks can't do (this is a bad thing). Sure, heavy attacks can deal a large sum of damage in a single hit, but... why gimp your mobility and melee fluidness when you can get a similar TTK with normal attacks? We literally have a dedicated combo in every stance for single target DPS, heavy attacks filling the same niche has mad them effectively redundant. Fragor Prime is really the only example where this breaks as a heavy attack build will far superseded your single target DPS combo, but that is only because if its unique perk.

For heavy attacks to be useful they need to do something normal melee attacks can't. And seeing as normal melee attacks already have DPS and mobility, the last major factor left is range.

Also, Melee 3.0*

I can sort of see your point.  Maybe the channeling mechanic will have some tie in with heavies.  If not though I sort of just see heavy attacks as being a style attack option.  Not opposed to them having some kind of purpose to it though.

[DrBorris]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I can sort of see your point.  Maybe the channeling mechanic will have some tie in with heavies.  If not though I sort of just see heavy attacks as being a style attack option.  Not opposed to them having some kind of purpose to it though.

My dream is for combo counter to add 1 meter for every stack. This would not have a huge impact on the current meta builds that dedicate themselves to heavy attacks, but imagine getting a bonus 12 meters to your heavy attack if you are willing to burn your combo. Would it be crazy powerful? Yes. But in my opinion that is the kind of power that heavy attacks need to make them widely used.

[STCJ]

I myself am really missing the old energy channeling and combo system. The upgrade to base dmg still hasnt given us back nearly what we lost on the builds that actually made use of those mechanics. Mechanics by and far from what I can tell the community never really made use of. In fact I seem to recall some comment from DE suggesting that to justify these major changes. apparently so few players used the old combo builds being gated largely behind mods like weeping wounds and blood rush that are rare enough and required trading with others to get typically and I guess only like 10% of the player base actively uses trading. And Energy channeling was used even less.

These changes however utterly ruined my ash/skiajati build Id developed that was really the only build I had that was using both the combo mods, and ash who really is the only frame I bothered to use combo on because of how fast he could build it up, and lets not forget life strike. Its loss has really narrowed down the options for self healing on a lot of my frames forcing me to either use consumables, one sancti weapons/purity augments and their weapons for heal procs, or focus on a specific operator tree.

My Silva and Aegis build which was formerly an energy channeling efficiency build while now able to hit like a truck with a X12 heavy attack simply takes away too much from the weapons core dmg to now optimize the new heavy attack system. Because building combo efficiency, combo duration, on top of making the weapon still functional in general just takes too much. I mean by the time you build up to X12 how much dmg that was lost fitting in those mods will be gained back. After all the game is about speed when it comes to killing. And even in like lvl 100 sorties I havent found any foes outside of the odd heavy that last long enough choosing to use the heavy attack might even make sense.

Heavy Attack while cool in concept just doesnt really feel useful enough in practice I imagine it will end up being used less then the old combo system and is def less useful in general to players then quick EC attacks for some life strike.

Frames like Limbo basically always used energy channeling constantly for the speed and extra dmg it gave. where the changes to self dmg seemed to be a only 1 specific frame/build got impacted the change to energy channeling and life strike imo likely impacted negatively a great many builds.

[SilverRook]

heavy attacks with hammers are amazing.

I hit a 34 million crit with a heavy slam, fully charged combo (12/220) LIFESTRIKE on arbitration last night.

I think it could have brought back Elvis..... 

 

[Cloudyvisage]

I run Zenurik and have the extra space to fit in that combo efficiency, that combined with a 40% efficiency mod and I can heavy attack all day, My Jat Kusar doesn't NEED to though and that's kinda a problem, but only because I'm an end game veteran, otherwise it isn't an issue.

[Monolake]

Works only on *some* weapons (for example scythes), impractical due to long wind-up,  WF being a fast game