why archwings die so fast with railjack

[Bathynomus]

On 2019-12-13 at 11:45 PM, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

Gotta remember that these enemies are using weapons to take out SHIPS. The ones that we fight usually with Archwings are made to fight Archwings.....these guns are made to fight bigger, more armored and shielded ships than our flight pods.

Besides, it sits with the tradition of DE giving the players something new that knocks them down many times before they nerf it into the ground to give back that gods walking feel. Who knows...maybe we will get some shield and armor upgrades after a while to withstand the new guns. Let's just hope they cover the flaw with using Skywings and getting 1 hitted out of it there as well.

And do they take down ships. Currently it feels like the railjack is a rabbit or squirrel or something, and the enemy is hunting us with a damn elephant gun.

[CopperBezel]

I don't know what the shield bug in the OP is, but it's unrelated to why archwings die so fast. Archwings die fast if 1) they're anything but Amesha or 2) you haven't figured out the pattern for using Amesha's abilities effectively in Railjack. I'm okay at it myself, and die once or twice in a Veil mission. 

16 minutes ago, nslay said:

That doesn't drain very fast. Two consecutive quick hits will be death. Basically, 4 is a waste of time unless you need energy.

It gives you a small buffer of extra damage soak in the process of giving you faster energy regen than Kinetic Diversion does, and a slight buff to your other abilities. It's far from useless - it's the best source of energy regen you have. You need your 4 to get energy to keep your 3 running, which levels the playing field against fighters. Use your 1 only when you have a full energy bar or are rushing a crewship. Use your 2 when you're low on health but have plenty of energy and can use your 1 as well, since it can't really protect you from the heavy hits that all come with AoE, or to keep the weak fighter fire off the railjack. If you're low on health *and* energy, recall to the railjack or board a crewship if handy and use whatever heal you have in warframe or operator mode, since your warframe health is your archwing health. Then go back out and convert that health into energy.

There are almost certainly other strategies; this is just one that definitely works. I've polarized Amesha three times and have Primed Morphic Transformer, along with the range, duration, health, armor, and sprint speed cards, but the really important bits are System Reroute and Kinetic Diversion.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by CopperBezel

[Bathynomus]

3 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

I don't know what the shield bug in the OP is, but it's unrelated to why archwings die so fast. Archwings die fast if 1) they're anything but Amesha or 2) you haven't figured out the pattern for using Amesha's abilities effectively in Railjack. I'm okay at it myself, and die once or twice in a Veil mission. 

It gives you a small buffer of extra damage soak in the process of giving you faster energy regen than Kinetic Diversion does, and a slight buff to your other abilities. It's far from useless - it's the best source of energy regen you have. You need your 4 to get energy to keep your 3 running, which levels the playing field against fighters. Use your 1 only when you have a full energy bar or are rushing a crewship. Use your 2 when you're low on health but have plenty of energy and can use your 1 as well, since it can't really protect you from the heavy hits that all come with AoE, or to keep the weak fighter fire off the railjack. If you're low on health *and* energy, recall to the railjack or board a crewship if handy and use whatever heal you have in warframe or operator mode, since your warframe health is your archwing health. Then go back out and convert that health into energy.

There are almost certainly other strategies; this is just one that definitely works. I've polarized Amesha three times and have Primed Morphic Transformer, but the really important bits are System Reroute and Kinetic Diversion.

 

How enjoyable is the gamemode in the long run, when you basically must use certain archwing and one of 2 weapons to be somewhat effective in it?  Why not just call it amesha rush if that's the plan? IMO it's not very encouraging to play railjack, when most of the gear we are supposed to choose from is not worth it even in the easiest of the missions.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Considering how long archwing has been out for them to learn and come up with ideas, is no one discussing how loot is acquired? How items look like little blue stars and how they have those same exacts dots all over their backgrounds? lol How they don't want us to loot so badly because I've seen loot jettisoned away from the impact and off to who knows where. Was it so difficult for us to just get it automatically for killing something?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-12-13 at 7:40 PM, DatDarkOne said:

This is more likely a case of most not having their AW gear leveled up and modded.  

An Amesha that has an Orokin Reactor Upgrade that can out-tank with defensive capabilities way beyond Odonata to the point that a Nerf is inbound gets one-shotted in low-level skirmish missions.  You are flying, and then your Warframe is napping.  You don’t even see an animation half the time.

Doesnt pass the sniff test.

All they are right now is the way to board and crush bigger ships and their crews.

Edited December 23, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Furybone]

boosting oberons power strength and keeping renewal active help a lot. but everyone wants to solo everything and over the years people forgot how to build squads to deal with minor things like this.

you can cast watchful swarm on allies btw. Also its probably best to just sit around the railjack and get pulled along with it to ensure your always within range of the archwing boosting avionics. Side note: those avionics really need to have at least 1500 meter range. i think the biggest one is 100 meters which is probably actually 400 meters because it uses archwing distance scaling.

[CopperBezel]

6 minutes ago, Bathynomus said:

How enjoyable is the gamemode in the long run, when you basically must use certain archwing and one of 2 weapons to be somewhat effective in it?  Why not just call it amesha rush if that's the plan? IMO it's not very encouraging to play railjack, when most of the gear we are supposed to choose from is not worth it even in the easiest of the missions.

That's a separate issue with its own threads I keep having to link places. Amesha is the only archwing in Railjack that makes sense, while the Cyngas, Phaedra, and maybe Imperator Vandal are the only guns that do, and any melee is fine for all the good it'll do you, especially if you're in the half of players for whom archmelee auto-target is broken. We are bereft of Archwing 2.0 content.

I'm going to link some other recent or active archwing discussions that could be useful context here. Archwing movement feedback thread, archwing movement discussion thread, archwing rebalance feedback thread, my modular archwing discussion thread. I also made a document hashing out the kind of thing I'd like to see from modular archwing myself, with some input from a player who's better at numbers.

Basically, Itzal needs a rework and Elytron is a joke, and I don't have confidence the modulars will be well designed and able to compete with Amesha either. Amesha needs to be the bar other archwings are set against. By complete accident, the OPAF archwing from the normal archwing mode also has abilities that make it viable in Railjack, and they're not even the same abilities.

If you're dying as Amesha, learn to Amesha. If you're dying as anything else, it's because it's garbage and DE needs to give us more options.

Edited December 23, 2019 by CopperBezel

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-12-13 at 2:06 PM, HeHeLp said:

 I am playing mostly in solo and I can say for sure that it is impossible to complete even the very first mission.... 

It's far from impossible, but it's impossible to do it with any level of finesse or skill; you have to abuse the mechanics to their fullest. Go into the mission with all 300 Revolite, shoot down ships that are closest to you, pick up any Pustrels and Cubic Diodes they drop as soon as possible to craft more Revolite, and abuse the minute of free invincibility frames when you inevitably suffer a catastrophic breach. Repeat until there's a pause in fighter waves (or all 30 are dead), then abuse Amesha's watchful swarm to get inside a crewship and blow it up

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2019-12-13 at 2:22 PM, TheGuyver said:

I straight up get one shot on saturn missions on elytron with max shields hp and armor. Really nice of DE to put blink on a cooldown that ruins your momentum when you use it too soon, nerf our AW weapons and give the new enemies hit scan weapons. 

The "let's make every archgun not hitscan" thing is a serious, major oof. The beauty of hitscan weapons has always been they're relatively reliable when network conditions arent ideal. Now, with the slightest bit of latency/lag it becomes nearly impossible to even hit, let alone kill anything. 

[ZzVinniezZ]

it kinda stupid how a level 2 ship that can kill you extremely quick and taken damage harder than your high level Railjack....like come on, that is level 2 not level 200

[Furybone]

36 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It's far from impossible, but it's impossible to do it with any level of finesse or skill; you have to abuse the mechanics to their fullest. Go into the mission with all 300 Revolite, shoot down ships that are closest to you, pick up any Pustrels and Cubic Diodes they drop as soon as possible to craft more Revolite, and abuse the minute of free invincibility frames when you inevitably suffer a catastrophic breach. Repeat until there's a pause in fighter waves (or all 30 are dead), then abuse Amesha's watchful swarm to get inside a crewship and blow it up

once you unlock drifting from pilot intristics and get yourself a decent nose gun its trivial to do the low level missions. This is true in veil too, but with the added requirement of a good shield generator.

[SpringRocker]

Does it occur to anyone else that the Railjack ship is supposed to be more powerful than Archwings? That and Archwings are basically light intercept crafts that grabs resources and occasionally run a defensive screen to force some fighters off the RJ or target other vessels that are vulnerable to them (like outrunner bombers)?

You're not supposed to kill entire fleets by yourself at the higher mission levels.

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, Furybone said:

once you unlock drifting from pilot intristics and get yourself a decent nose gun its trivial to do the low level missions. This is true in veil too, but with the added requirement of a good shield generator.

Plus, as soon as you get Particle Ram, half the enemies will kill themselves for you

[TARINunit9]

Just now, SpringRocker said:

Does it occur to anyone else that the Railjack ship is supposed to be more powerful than Archwings? That and Archwings are basically light intercept crafts that grabs resources and occasionally run a defensive screen to force some fighters off the RJ or target other vessels that are vulnerable to them (like outrunner bombers)?

You're not supposed to kill entire fleets by yourself at the higher mission levels.

Two things going on

One: despite the general stigma that "archwing sucks" (which was admittedly half true), fully-ranked Archwings were DISGUSTINGLY overpowered in archwing missions. Then comes Railjack, which is forced to activate maximum power creep to force us to use the actual Railjack (on launch day, maxed out archguns could pump out so much damage they could easily solo entire missions in less than five minutes and shred crewships effortnessly. The devs had to hotfix Archwings into uselessness)

Second is the Railjack itself. At the beginning, your Railjack is so fragile that it suffers catastrophic breach in a matter of seconds. This isn't fun, and prompted most people to just use Archwing instead, at least we have upgrades on those

[SpringRocker]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Second is the Railjack itself. At the beginning, your Railjack is so fragile that it suffers catastrophic breach in a matter of seconds. This isn't fun, and prompted most people to just use Archwing instead, at least we have upgrades on those

Well, isn't going into missions without modding your RJ like going into missions without modding your gear?

You wouldn't start a new account, choose Mag/Volt/Excal, finish the first mission, and start doing sorties would you? That's what you're basically doing when you're not upgrading your RJ. I see RJs in the veil having no problem holding their own.

Edited December 23, 2019 by SpringRocker

[TARINunit9]

Just now, SpringRocker said:

Well, if isn't going into missions without modding your RJ like going into missions without modding your gear?

You wouldn't start a new account, choose Mag/Volt/Excal, finish the first mission, and start doing sorties would you?

NOBODY had upgrades, you literally were forced to start farming upgrades without upgrades. This isn't some "in the dark ages of 2015" thing, this happened to you too barely a week ago

[kgptzac]

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

NOBODY had upgrades, you literally were forced to start farming upgrades without upgrades. This isn't some "in the dark ages of 2015" thing, this happened to you too barely a week ago

But now is not a week ago.  There are competently built railjacks in Veil that can be hotjoined where you can farm for good parts.  What is the reason now to fly a woefully unready railjack into a mission and force those who hotjoin your session to play "archwing in railjack space"? 

Edited December 23, 2019 by kgptzac
typo

[Aldain]

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

NOBODY had upgrades, you literally were forced to start farming upgrades without upgrades.

That's the issue in a nutshell.

Unlike how when a player starts Warframe, where their base frame can stand up to the first 4-5 planets with minimal modding (due to leveling up giving base stats) a base Railjack has issues from node 1 from what I hear (on the Switch version... I'll have it by mid January at the earliest).

Mission 1 shouldn't expect sortie tier durability, it is fine if it wanted to ramp up fast, but starting expecting mods seems like an issue.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Aldain

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

That doesn't drain very fast. Two consecutive quick hits will be death. Basically, 4 is a waste of time unless you need energy.

That's not how it works. In regular archwing, simply having your 3 on will prevent you from maxing out, regardless of how many shots are hitting you. Some enemies are supposedly able to deal damage to you anyway, but I'd also classify that as an earlier instance of this bug. If that was how it's supposed to work, all enemies would be able to do it.

  

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

NOBODY had upgrades, you literally were forced to start farming upgrades without upgrades. This isn't some "in the dark ages of 2015" thing, this happened to you too barely a week ago

I mean, that's how a progression-based game works. You have to start progressing from the beginning. If you had upgrades from the beginning, they wouldn't be upgrades.

Edited December 23, 2019 by SordidDreams

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

 

I mean, that's how a progression-based game works. You have to start progressing from the beginning. If you had upgrades from the beginning, they wouldn't be upgrades.

The point is, Railjack doesn't have a level 1 mission like Vor's Prize. It has a level 15 mission, and you start with a level 0 Railjack. Good luck

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That's not how it works. In regular archwing, simply having your 3 on will prevent you from maxing out, regardless of how many shots are hitting you. Some enemies are supposedly able to deal damage to you anyway, but I'd also classify that as an earlier instance of this bug. If that was how it's supposed to work, all enemies would be able to do it.

Obviously it doesn't work that way as effectively as you claim because we have this thread (and lots of other ones too). It certainly doesn't work very effectively for simpleton Archwing enemies that can still damage Amesha with 4 and 3 activated simultaneously. Basically it sucks.

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The point is, Railjack doesn't have a level 1 mission like Vor's Prize. It has a level 15 mission, and you start with a level 0 Railjack. Good luck

That didn't take very long to find at all.

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That didn't take very long to find at all.

Yeah, and do you remember trying to play that level 15 mission a week ago before you earned your upgrades? If you repressed those memories, i don't blame you: playing solo, you would spend more time repairing catastrophic breaches and hoovering up Pustrels than actually fighting anything. Your ship would drop down to 99 health in about two seconds, and you would leave it there for as long as possible so you had time to actually kill one or two of the fighters or maybe a crewship

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah, and do you remember trying to play that level 15 mission a week ago before you earned your upgrades? If you repressed those memories, i don't blame you: playing solo, you would spend more time repairing catastrophic breaches and hoovering up Pustrels than actually fighting anything. Your ship would drop down to 99 health in about two seconds, and you would leave it there for as long as possible so you had time to actually kill one or two of the fighters or maybe a crewship

First of all, that's a level 1 mission for ships, something you claimed didn't exist. Secondly, do you remember when you started playing Warframe and you'd get your butt handed to you by a couple of lancers? Sounds to me like you're the one repressing memories.

Edited December 24, 2019 by SordidDreams

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Secondly, do you remember when you started playing Warframe and you'd get your butt handed to you by a couple of lancers? Sounds to me like you're the one repressing memories.

No