So, the Aksomati Prime...is worse? (Disposition)

[VentiGlondi]

10 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

It really depends. For some weapons, sure. For others though, it's a pretty questionable choice. For instance, Destreza vs Destreza Prime. Upped status on a crit rapier. I guarantee you anyone still playing Rapiers is not playing Destreza Prime as a hybrid build.

Well, there's at least one person playing hybrid destreza so that makes you wrong.

[DroopingPuppy]

17 hours ago, Chronometria said:

I see Soma here. Well, it is natural becaus Aksomati resembles Soma.

[Drachnyn]

Maybe we should just remove rivens from the game completely and instead buff the unused/bad weapons.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

I feel like a lot of you are missing the point.

OP is asking why he should invest time and forma into getting and maxing the Aksomati Prime, when his current riven means that the base Aksomati is better.

This is exactly what DE said they didn't want when they said they were going to make different variants have different stats. They said they never wanted for a prime variant to underperform next to its base variant when both use the same riven. And yet, here we are, with a blatant example of this happening.

This post is not about whether or not rivens should exist. It's not about how rivens should be used. It's not about how primes should differ from base variants.

It's about DE doing exactly what they said they didn't want to.

Quote for reference:

On 2019-11-07 at 10:14 AM, [DE]Connor said:

we don’t intend to make any base variants explicitly better than their upgraded counterparts

Edited December 18, 2019 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[Ellenuis]

I do not have rivens at all but rivens should not be taken into consideration when we talking about the balancing. I just saw the in game stats for these items and basically noone prime versions are much better than their regular counterpairs. I guess they followed the kronen prime type of balance where they just do minor tweaks and mostly qol changes. Ivara prime looked nice but she is basically the same. If they just give her +25 shield and 25 hp and keep the rest of the changes then it would have been better since the shields are not really useful. Still good but the Baza prime and the Aksomati prime is not really worth the bucks (just stat wise). Take my opinion just a simple opinion because I do not have these items and not tested these yet " only formed my opinion on stats ".

Soma series which includes the aksomati too " akstilleto too " needs some buffs to be a better weapons because on a certain level these are just dustcatchers. I appreciate the purpose behind these items but still feel these items needs a bit more damage too. 

Prime weapons must be better options if they wants put them behind higher mastery.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Ellenuis

[Voltage]

I believe the Riven Disposition is bugged. But hey, it looks like an upgrade to me thus far. That fire rate really is juicy with that Status Chance. I will hold my breath until the Disposition is fixed though.

[DarkRuler2500]

Am 17.12.2019 um 22:40 schrieb Rubbertubtub01:

I wouldn't think that less than 1 fire rate increase, 1 damage increase, and 10% status increase is worth a disposition decrease. 

My opinion, too.

[Tiltskillet]

It seems to me the disposition "nerf" is, at best, questionable, and DE should look at reviewing either the disposition or the weapon's stats, or both.  The Prime definitely is worse in some major respects once rivens are accounted for, which is very close to what DE said they didn't want to have happen with split dispositions.

Yes, if the dispositions were the same, it would be outright better than the base weapon in almost every respect.  But it's supposed to be both by virtue of being a Prime and having a higher mastery level.

Some actual dps tests would be better, since it would factor in the Prime's much better status application, but here's a little cheap  raw comparison I did yesterday:
 

Quote

 

I plugged some numbers  into Warframe Builder comparing the two guns. Pretty standard crit / 2x60 build.  Damage / Crit / CritX riven with max values adjusted for the dispositions on each. 

Aksomati / Aksomati Prime

Damage: 5413 / 4836

Burst: 108275 / 103145

Sustained  77339 / 75111

If I entered everything correctly, and if WB is calculating everything correctly, the big thing that isn't accounted for is the status application difference.  Which is substantial, but I'm woefully unqualified to come up with a dps effect.

Also, even though it doesn't have a negative, that's a pretty crazy imaginary riven that  just happens to pop the base Aksomati right over 100% crit.  So it's just about perfect, other than not having a benign or harmless negative.  If I plug in low rolls, it looks like the guns get closer together in raw damage, although the prime still doesn't pull even.

 

I should mention too that the Prime might be a little worse in raw damage than those numbers suggest.  Warframe Builder -might- be accounting for the spool-up time on the base Aksomati, but it definitely isn't on the Prime since I had to plug everything in manually and didn't have that information.

 

[Smilomaniac]

There's an easy fix to this. Get rid of the disposition system and let people have fun with the rewards that rivens are supposed to be.

Anyone who thinks or claims that they're some sort of balancing act for bad weapons are deluding themselves into thinking that every weapon should be viable and in the same stat range. The point of spending effort for getting better weapons requires for there to be bad ones.

Balance doesn't mean everything is equal, it just means that you're sticking to a set of guidelines and have an overall sense of cohesion.
For example, if a weapon with no slash damage on it did slash procs, that would be outside the rules set for the game; It would be unbalanced. One weapon standing above the rest is not unbalanced, even if it's twenty million times as powerful, as long as it follows the rules and it makes some sort of sense, it's fine.

I know this is exceptionally difficult for people to understand and I'm sure some twerp is going to rush in to try and explain how ackshually balance is two things weighing the same on a scale, but all you're doing is showing your ignorance; Save yourself the effort.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

The status chance buff alone is enough for me to deem the Aksomati Prime as vastly superior.

All others stats are similar and the riven disp difference makes the two weapon pretty similar in the end stats, but the status chance of the Prime is towering over the base version and that makes a huge difference in actual DPS. Since corrosive or viral procs way more often and thus allows for more damage/less time to kill stuff.

With my Riven, Aksomati P gets a 7.9x crit multiplier ffs. It could go to 9.4x if I had Primed Target Cracker. (imagine multiplying your damage by 10 with every crit, with a 15 round per second weapon that have 98%crit chance)

I tested it on Railjack enemies and it have more DPS than pretty much all of my Primaries. Including stuff like Glaxion Vandal, Artemis Bow Prime or Ignis Wraith, hell it leave even Catchmoon in the dust. Only the ammo limitation and lack of AOE prevents me to be more effective than my melees actually.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Isokaze_BestKaze

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

Thanks, @Isokaze_BestKaze. You just made me want to farm that weapon although I dislike the looks.

[Frenotx]

On 2019-12-17 at 10:39 PM, Kerberos-3 said:

It really depends. For some weapons, sure. For others though, it's a pretty questionable choice. For instance, Destreza vs Destreza Prime. Upped status on a crit rapier. I guarantee you anyone still playing Rapiers is not playing Destreza Prime as a hybrid build.

I wasn't talking about in general. I was talking about on the aksomati, the topic of the thread.

[Ellenuis]

12 hours ago, Voltage said:

I believe the Riven Disposition is bugged. But hey, it looks like an upgrade to me thus far. That fire rate really is juicy with that Status Chance. I will hold my breath until the Disposition is fixed though.

Seems bugged but because the puncture damage is missing. There is a chance your riven removes puncture?

[Chronometria]

OP here! I am still watching the topic and thankyou to those who have started theorycrafting. I`m currently holding off of levelling and forma-fitting the acksomati primes, based on what we learn here. I`ve also built a pair of akstillettos and will get a kuva twin stubba, both of which are weapons holding a similar niche to the aksomati. I am interested to see that the status boost is the topic of discussion, as to how much it impacts on the prime's ability to deal damage effectively and this is what keeps me looking at the akstillettos - which do more damage and have a much higher status.

I am reassured though that the initial testing done by posters here is shining a positive light on the aksomati prime, even with disposition changes - keep up the good work everyone and thankyou for your time and contributions.

[Voltage]

33 minutes ago, Ellenuis said:

Seems bugged but because the puncture damage is missing. There is a chance your riven removes puncture?

Yes but as you can see my critical chance is the same on both weapons with just the Riven. My riven removes all puncture on the Vanilla, but it shouldn't on the prime. I should have around .6 puncture damage on Prime. Seems like an oversight and this limits my comparison because I am not getting the right disposition.

[Aadi880]

28 minutes ago, Voltage said:

My riven removes all puncture on the Vanilla, but it shouldn't on the prime. I should have around .6 puncture damage on Prime.

Seems like a rounding error.

Similar to how integers and floats (decimal numbers) behave with each other, any float will instead have the values after the decimal place just straight up removed (not even rounded, just removed) when it is displayed to the UI as a value. Though its UI exclusive (usually it is). The 0.6 puncture damage should still exist, just not displayed.

Though its still weird as the UI should be capable to display floats. Dunno why its not behaving like that here in particular. Can you show the values in your riven?

[Cloudyvisage]

It looks like the only way for someone to argue a sidegrade is if you have a perfect Riven, if you don't then this is a strict upgrade in damage and utility. 10% higher status on a rapidfire gun is amazing, especially one that is weighted towards slash.

If you were to take this to the Simulacrum it would guaranteed perform better against anything that takes more than a few hits to kill, especially armored targets, get a level 150 Bombard and the Prime would kill that significantly faster, get a group of infested Ancients, same thing. As far as performance mid mission goes, it has higher fire rate and a larger magazine so it should fire for just about the same amount of time and therefore should feel the same.

This entire argument so far has been made with a perfect Riven against an enemy with no armor and just counting the raw numbers, if your target has enough health or armor to survive against your shots for more than a moment then Status kicks in and skews this heavily in the favor of the Prime.

TLDR, If you have a perfect CC + CD with maybe Damage/multishot Riven and you're against targets you kill in less than a quarter second, this is just a sidegrade, anything else and the Prime is better.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Cloudyvisage said:

TLDR, If you have a perfect CC + CD with maybe Damage/multishot Riven and you're against targets you kill in less than a quarter second, this is just a sidegrade, anything else and the Prime is better.

I have CC DMG MS -Puncture and can say that the Prime is still slightly better (I know, the Disposition is broken, but the fire rate and status chance feels much better). This isn't embarrassing like Zhuge Prime, but it's nothing outstanding. DE played it safe by marginally increasing the comfort of the weapon.

The main problem I personally have is with this new Riven Disposition system. What happens is as you get a better Riven, the gap between your upgrade decreases. This is quite unfortunate for people who heavily invested in Aksomati (like myself) because it makes the Prime better, but not as good of an improvement as someone who never owned a Riven in the first place.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Voltage

[Chronometria]

*update* - the latest patch notes appear to indicate that the disposition may have been changed significantly - down to 1 - and that there was some sort of error keeping it the same as the old axomati disposition - can contributors check their findings for changes please- all may have changed for the worse in a big way.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Chronometria

[Voltage]

This has gotten to be a very close race:

(Both loadouts do not have Corrosive Projection or any buffs. Both builds are exactly the same as shown below)

Aksomati:

Aksomati Prime:

Conclusion: I honestly don't know what to say. I feel like the Prime might be ever so slightly better, but in general they both feel almost the same if I am going to be honest. I am not impressed with the Prime nor am I really disappointed. It feels like I just have two Aksomati's in my inventory.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

On my end I indeed lost crit multiplier crit chance a bit. It went down to 88% instead of 95% and 7.4x instead of 7.9x.

That kind of hurts, but on the other hand the status chance went up. 

I don't really know what to say. The gun is still very very good for a secondary. I don't have the normal Aksomati so it's a bit difficult to compare.

Tbh that just showed me I really need to get Primed Target Cracker and Pistol Gambit ASAP.

[(PSN)AstralKoda]

On 2019-12-17 at 3:40 PM, Rubbertubtub01 said:

I wouldn't think that less than 1 fire rate increase, 1 damage increase, and 10% status increase is worth a disposition decrease. 

Hell no