Valence Fusion DOESN'T CARRY OVER FORMA INVESTMENTS

[(PSN)Dishinshoryuken]

Serious?

There is even a CONFIRM to type before going all the way?

I tell my kids to read 3 times before you do.

This is what happens when companies give people freedom. Some people have Forma'd their items tens of hundreds of times and do not care if they lose a something with Forma on it. That is the reason there are no FAILSAFES to prevent such things from happening- some of us have much FORMA and enjoy the freedom to do what we want.

Now we have people calling for restrictions and blocks since they canno read....even when there is a VERIFY CONFIRM right there to make sure you understand what you are doing and give your consent????

I luv this game....but starting to think it ain't for everyone. People quit cuz of CONTENT DROUGHT...then come back when they realize this game is better than most other games out there. People complain that others are not doing what they want in PUB...even though they have not communicated what they want. And now people want a block on something that asks your permission to do what you intended.

At least I got chicken....

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

16 hours ago, Syln said:

So basically you can't change your weapon element without starting forma and stuff all over again ? ^

Never had to change so i didn't knew, that's silly !

Yes, you can. You just fuse it with a new weapon. The percentages are combined, but the element is replaced.

[32768]

23 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

If it was accessible as a popup right there we wouldn't be here. Yes the launcher or loader does show the patch notes but the average player dosent care to read them. I'm saying move the patch notes or changes to a screen upon successfully loging in like many other rpgs do that would require you to either X out of the menu or move it away.

Wow, it actually first time I hear about patchnotes in launcher, where are they exactly? I asked in chat if I can read patch notes in game and I was told that I need to check forum... Maybe they need to fix UI, but I'll try to find them in launcher, okay. It also would be nice to put them in news in orbiter or something, or if they are in launcher, then I guess it's fine too.

[32768]

23 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

Oh, well would you look at that. A pop up of the latest patch notes that is immediately visible in your face every single time you load into your orbiter.

WTF is this sorcery? Can it be that I don't see this in game because I have display language set to Russian?

[IggySnow]

Players shouldn't have to go to external websites just to understand basic functions of the game they are playing. You shouldn't have to read every patch notes that gets posted because you're afraid you'll lose hours of time if you don't. When you do a Valence fusion it should be made 100% clear that you will lose all forma, catalyst, exilus, etc on the weapon you are consuming, but its not.

"Dismantle a matching weapon to transfer a boosted version of its innate damage bonus to this weapon." Dismantle doesn't even imply you will lose everything you put into the weapon. If anything it implies the opposite.

"Replace [ELEMENT] 50% with upgraded [ELEMENT] 50%?    This will consume [kuva weapon] (1 Forma) and is irreversible." Again, no where is it implied you'll lose everything. And again, "consume" only implies you're getting the forma in that weapon.

That is the ONLY info that's displayed in game. At minimum "dismantle" and "consumed" should be replaced with "destroy" and "destroyed" so the wording is clearer, and there should be another sentence that says "Any forma, catalyst, or exilus, that is applied to [kuva weapon] will not be transferred."

 

One of warframes biggest problems is that the only way to get any useful information about anything is to go to the wiki, or the forums, or youtube. Its a problem the devs know about, and have admitted that something needs to be done about since day 1, but still make no effort to change.

 

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, HerpDerpy said:

"Replace [ELEMENT] 50% with upgraded [ELEMENT] 50%?    This will consume [kuva weapon] (1 Forma) and is irreversible." Again, no where is it implied you'll lose everything. And again, "consume" only implies you're getting the forma in that weapon.

LOL, no it doesn't. 

Did it say "This will consume the weapon with 1 forma on it and be irreversible, but hey don't worry, we'll take the forma we don't know if you still want (because 'consume' is pretty unambiguous) and add it to the weapon, or something, even though by confirming you're telling us you don't want that to happen, lulz"? No? Ok well that's that. 

Today's lesson in "learning to live with the consequences of not paying attention", is complete. Please join us tomorrow for the lesson on "what, you again, c'mon mate it's the 5th time this week". 

[IggySnow]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

LOL, no it doesn't. 

Did it say "This will consume the weapon with 1 forma on it and be irreversible, but hey don't worry, we'll take the forma we don't know if you still want (because 'consume' is pretty unambiguous) and add it to the weapon, or something, even though by confirming you're telling us you don't want that to happen, lulz"? No? Ok well that's that. 

Today's lesson in "learning to live with the consequences of not paying attention", is complete. Please join us tomorrow for the lesson on "what, you again, c'mon mate it's the 5th time this week". 

Just because it is to you, doesn't mean it is to everyone else. Besides, my entire point was that at no time during a valence fusion it explicitly says you will lose everything you've put into weapon B. You have to infer that on your own, or look it up online.

There's no harm in making something clearer and easier to understand.

They already did it when you consign a pet you own where it says "you will no longer own (pet name)." Its clear, and direct, with 0 chance of someone misunderstanding whats happening. 

[ArcKnight9202]

Already built guns being used as reagents for other guns through the foundry isn't quite the same as this system. These are also built using the foundry menu that just about everything else uses to come into the game. This fusion system uses 2 already built and functioning weapons behind some black screen menus with little to no visual feedback as to what is happening.

In the former system, it's extremely clear you are using a weapon to create something entirely new because it takes time to literally build the thing. That whole system itself is well-designed enough from a purely visual perspective that few would assume it would carry forma, etc. over to the newly created item.

This new system is instant, I assume. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, I've never used it. It only has a little tiny box with some vague idea of what will happen.

As for all the remarks directed at people's intelligence, or lack thereof, chill out. Mistakes happen. In fact, they happen so often, and sometimes cost so much money, there's an entire industry of people who tear apart stuff like this. They are called lawyers. I would also posit that the inability to interpret things from different perspectives and deriding people for making "simple" mistakes is pretty ignorant.

To conclude, I'd say this is probably a result of them rushing out a system and not making it as mistake-proof as possible. If I were to offer a solution, it would be to make a snapshot of the potential weapon's Arsenal screen. This way the player would see whether or not their potatoes and forma are in fact there. If they aren't, it's easy to just reverse the order. It's not a perfect solution, but the visual feedback is there.

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by ArcKnight9202
Fixed stuff

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2020-02-07 at 8:17 AM, HerpDerpy said:

Just because it is to you, doesn't mean it is to everyone else. Besides, my entire point was that at no time during a valence fusion it explicitly says you will lose everything you've put into weapon B. You have to infer that on your own, or look it up online.

Just because it isn't to you doesn't mean that it isn't to the majority of people who aren't absolutely oblivious. And when they explicitly stated "this is going to be consumed, and is irreversible" that's what tells you that you aren't getting it back. That's the point where people who aren't just clicking blindly pause for a moment and ask themselves if they are sure that they're doing the right thing. 

On 2020-02-07 at 8:17 AM, HerpDerpy said:

There's no harm in making something clearer and easier to understand.

They already did it when you consign a pet you own where it says "you will no longer own (pet name)." Its clear, and direct, with 0 chance of someone misunderstanding whats happening. 

What do you think the words "consume" and "irreversible" mean? 

[Chappie]

On 2020-02-07 at 1:24 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

What do you think the words "consume" and "irreversible" mean? 

You are missing the point that no reasonable person would ever assume a video game company would take something that has tangible cash value (e.g. forma and potato cost plat) and destroy it as part of upgrading something....well, maybe EA would.   You can be a pedantic technically correct type all you want...but this feels icky.   

1.  People should not have to read patch notes to play a game.   

2.  People should not have to worry, that when upgrading something, their investment time investment may be destroyed.  

If you don't think that once this happens another couple 100 times that some media presence won't pick it and blow it up 1000x bigger than it is here...I go ta bridge to sell yah.  

Forma and potato should at least be refunded back to inventory.  Very simple.  That alone would be a fair compromise in terms of coding logistics.   Other wise this system of progression now has a very real punishment factor to it.  

[(XBOX)Shodian]

3 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

but this feels icky.   

Only if you don't know how to read.

[Chappie]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Only if you don't know how to read.

I do....and this thread makes me sad...especially your post.   

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

Already built guns being used as reagents for other guns through the foundry isn't quite the same as this system. These are also built using the foundry menu that just about everything else uses to come into the game. This fusion system uses 2 already built and functioning weapons behind some black screen menus with little to no visual feedback as to what is happening.

In the former system, it's extremely clear you are using a weapon to create something entirely new because it takes time to literally build the thing. That whole system itself is well-designed enough from a purely visual perspective that few would assume it would carry forma, etc. over to the newly created item.

This new system is instant, I assume. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, I've never used it. It only has a little tiny box with some vague idea of what will happen.

As for all the remarks directed at people's intelligence, or lack thereof, chill out. Mistakes happen. In fact, they happen so often, and sometimes cost so much money, there's an entire industry of people who tear apart stuff like this. They are called lawyers. I would also posit that the inability to interpret things from different perspectives and deriding people for making "simple" mistakes is pretty ignorant.

To conclude, I'd say this is probably a result of them rushing out a system and not making it as mistake-proof as possible. If I were to offer a solution, it would be to make a snapshot of the potential weapon's Arsenal screen. This way the player would see whether or not their potatoes and forma are in fact there. If they aren't, it's easy to just reverse the order. It's not a perfect solution, but the visual feedback is there.

 

Your argument that "mistakes happen" works really well up to the point where we pretend that me making a mistake is everyone else's fault. 

2 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

You are missing the point that no reasonable person would ever assume a video game company would take something that has tangible cash value (e.g. forma and potato cost plat) and destroy it as part of upgrading something....well, maybe EA would.   You can be a pedantic technically correct type all you want...but this feels icky.   

1.  People should not have to read patch notes to play a game.   

2.  People should not have to worry, that when upgrading something, their investment time investment may be destroyed.  

If you don't think that once this happens another couple 100 times that some media presence won't pick it and blow it up 1000x bigger than it is here...I go ta bridge to sell yah.  

Forma and potato should at least be refunded back to inventory.  Very simple.  That alone would be a fair compromise in terms of coding logistics.   Other wise this system of progression now has a very real punishment factor to it.  

You're missing the fact that every other time we've used a system that consumes a weapon, we've never gotten anything back. If you wanted to keep your forma on that Broken War, you didn't use it as a raw ingredient to make a War. 

But in this case you CAN keep the forma on th for upcycled Kuva weapon, if you want to. It's very much a "have your cake and eat it too" scenario. The cost is that you need to pay a tiny bit of attention to which one you are destroying in order to enhance the other. 

But some people don't even want to do that? And you are trying to blame the Devs for the players refusal to pay attention, when they're literally being forced to confirm that it's what they really want to do? Feels.... icky man. 

[(PSN)Jack_Mahler]

9 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

You are missing the point that no reasonable person would ever assume a video game company would take something that has tangible cash value (e.g. forma and potato cost plat) and destroy it as part of upgrading something....well, maybe EA would.   You can be a pedantic technically correct type all you want...but this feels icky.   

1.  People should not have to read patch notes to play a game.   

2.  People should not have to worry, that when upgrading something, their investment time investment may be destroyed.  

If you don't think that once this happens another couple 100 times that some media presence won't pick it and blow it up 1000x bigger than it is here...I go ta bridge to sell yah.  

Forma and potato should at least be refunded back to inventory.  Very simple.  That alone would be a fair compromise in terms of coding logistics.   Other wise this system of progression now has a very real punishment factor to it.  

The thing is that he didn't even have to read the patch notes, since when you activate valence fusion it clearly states: "X weapon wil be CONSUMED and the action is IRREVERSIBLE"

Hell, it even requires you to MANUALLY TYPE 'TRANSFER' to confirm

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Inevitably there's still going to be a subsection of the population who manage to ignore all of the fail-safes, warnings, and anything else that you're able to come up with. 

If you are ever able to make something absolutely foolproof, the Universe adapts and invents a better fool. 

And I'm curious, if pointing out that people should take the time to read and try to comprehend things is flexing a moral superiority, how do you classify defending people's 'right' to be oblivious, and willfully ignorant to the point of self-destructive action despite very clear warnings being placed to try to prevent such? 

[Ham_Grenabe]

At what point, though, do you -- as a developer -- start thinking about configuring this so that it can't be screwed up, just to save yourself the headache? 

How many posts and threads on Valence Fusion Destroyed My 5-Forma Brakk and support staff diddling the databases to restore items is enough to go back in and say "yeah, they're not getting it. How bout we just not let that happen at all."

And I mean, for me -- who understood the issue and did not have a problem with it - it still can't hurt for it to be more foolproof. There's no way making it a less error-prone operation is bad for me, or any of us. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[LazyKnight]

12 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

And I mean, for me -- who understood the issue and did not have a problem with it - it still can't hurt for it to be more foolproof. There's no way making it a less error-prone operation is bad for me, or any of us. 

They could make it so it says delete instead of consume. I doubt that would be enough and they might need to explicitly tell people to put the weapon they want to keep first.

Edited February 7, 2020 by LazyKnight

[Ham_Grenabe]

4 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

They could make it so it says delete instead of consume. I doubt that would be enough and they might need to explicitly tell people to put the weapon the they want to keep first.

They could just make it impossible (a suggestion I made earlier) to consume a weapon that has any affinity or modification (e.g. forma, catalyst) whatsoever. Like, you can't select an already upgraded weapon as the gun that gets destroyed (you can always upgrade them, but you can never use them to upgrade another). 

Addressing the edge case of someone wanting to destroy a 5-forma potatoed weapon to upgrade a brand new one is not as critical as addressing the primary case of people not wanting to delete such a weapon.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Ham_Grenabe

[LazyKnight]

10 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

-snipe-

I am against the affinity Idea because some people might test out a 25% bonus weapon in a mission acquire some affinity and then end up stuck with a junk weapon. Also, it's not that much of a commitment to accumulate weapon levels and it is to easy to forget a weapon is equipped and run a mission with it.

The forma and catalyst idea work for a lock, but it could cause issue for people that want to transfer a high bonus to a new weapon with a cool name. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On 2020-02-06 at 9:14 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Is this going to be the new "the game should tell me to go practice the current MR test with Simaris every time I attempt to take it"/"the game should warn me before I purchase items from the market or rush, and I should have to agree to doing that thing"/"before completing player trades I should be informed of what I'm getting, and agree to complete the trade so that I don't get scammed"? 

Some people are just oblivious and will always refuse to accept the consequences of their own actions. 

People practice those? 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

9 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

People practice those? 

Some do, some don't. Some of the ones who don't, claim that they didn't know that was an option. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Some do, some don't. Some of the ones who don't, claim that they didn't know that was an option. 

Never practiced if I fail I learn from what I did wrong 

[Antris]

On 2020-02-07 at 1:24 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Just because it isn't to you doesn't mean that it isn't to the majority of people who aren't absolutely oblivious. And when they explicitly stated "this is going to be consumed, and is irreversible" that's what tells you that you aren't getting it back. That's the point where people who aren't just clicking blindly pause for a moment and ask themselves if they are sure that they're doing the right thing. 

 

On 2020-02-07 at 1:24 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

What do you think the words "consume" and "irreversible" mean? 

They mean exactly what they mean, and at no point it means that the Forma and Catalyst aren't going to be fused. That's just your assumption, and it would be the correct one, on the other hand the assumption of consuming the weapon and having its resources fused on the other weapon of the same model is just as valid, but unfortunately wrong.

This is a design problem, why would a player lose invested resources during a fusion? And the text is not clear. OP might even have run into a bug.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

6 hours ago, Antris said:

 

They mean exactly what they mean, and at no point it means that the Forma and Catalyst aren't going to be fused. That's just your assumption, and it would be the correct one, on the other hand the assumption of consuming the weapon and having its resources fused on the other weapon of the same model is just as valid, but unfortunately wrong.

This is a design problem, why would a player lose invested resources during a fusion? And the text is not clear. OP might even have run into a bug.

☝️👇

On 2020-02-07 at 1:56 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You're missing the fact that every other time we've used a system that consumes a weapon, we've never gotten anything back. If you wanted to keep your forma on that Broken War, you didn't use it as a raw ingredient to make a War. 

But in this case you CAN keep the forma on th for upcycled Kuva weapon, if you want to. It's very much a "have your cake and eat it too" scenario. The cost is that you need to pay a tiny bit of attention to which one you are destroying in order to enhance the other. 

Answered 18hrs in advance it looks like? 👍

 

When one assumption is based on what you have observed in the past regarding consuming items as raw materials, and the other is based solely on wishful thinking, which do you think is the safer assumption? 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Other games with similar systems have much more informative and clear screens for such an important decision.

For instance, they'll have a slot on the transfer screen that's all gold and important looking for the slot you'll be keeping.

They'll have another (or multiple) slot(s) for the items you'll be fusing into that one piece of gear, much smaller, with little arrows and stuff flowing into the big gold one.

And THEN they even have a "RESULTS" box, showing what you'll get once you push the big shiny sparkly Transfer button... leaving you no question as to whether or not you want to do what you're about to do.

 

Warframe has a confirmation dialog box that kinda sorta tells you what will happen (but can be taken multiple ways, allowing for misunderstandings), and requires you to remember if that one item you had with only 1 forma was the one you wanted to keep or destroy, or what if both had 1 forma, and you just wanted to combine them into one... but can't remember which was which? It looks like they were both toxin in this example...

The amount of confusion allowed by the super simplistic confirmation box has backfired in practice.