I don't feel shield gating is a good trade off for the nerfs to Arcane Guardian.

[Jarriaga]

Just now, Yakhul said:

Nitpicking on what i said right? Unfortunately i am not made of gold to afford a 2nd Guardian, and i have a too busy life to even bother farming eidolons. And well, you said it, the problem is the value, so i cannot really test this changes with how arcanes are right now. Did you forget that DE mentioned a cooldown being added to some of the most powerful Arcanes? Would not be surprised if Arcane Guardian falls in that description, as it makes a single frame, Hildryn, basically unkillable.

So no, i cannot test the changes until the update drops and we get the entire list of what is changing.

It's not nitpicking when your entire argument of "wait and see" only works by ignoring we can currently test the proposed changes as they stand. We could not do so with the melee revision.

I have 2 Rank 3 Guardians. I know how it feels to use just 1 vs 2.

[XioValency]

13 minutes ago, trst said:

Except almost every weakness shields had are going away with these changes. On top of all the resistance changes being indirect buffs to Adaptation in allowing it to gain more stacks, and is still the only mod to affect the durability of shields.

And shield gating cures the biggest issue these frames had with one-shots where they would result in death before Adaptation worked or getting stun locked from instantly going into Quick Thinking.

But it's not really fixing squishy frames being auto killed because a grakatta will slash proc your invul window then kill you, shield gating are buffs that buffs the frames who never needed the added durability by giving a universal rolling guard, I feel like retaining or actually buffing armour from arcanes is overall much better for gameplay than giving everyone a panic rolling guard, since most squishy frames can't actually reset the shield before death unless you operator mode and run the hell away when it pops.

Edited February 29, 2020 by BreezeKazero

[trst]

Just now, BreezeKazero said:

But it's not really fixing squishy frames being auto killed because a grakatta will slash proc your invul window then kill you, shield gating are buffs that buffs the frames who never needed the added durability buy giving a universal rolling guard, these changes are basically telling me, sorry just play tank.

You're assuming you're going to facetank slash procs and will stack said procs while invulnerable. When enemy accuracy is also being reduced and enemy procs having never been common enough to stacking to have been a major factor. Plus, again, the resistance changes are making those shields last longer and are indirect buffs to the only mod that buffs shield resistance.

If you play by facetanking everything then sure, it might as well be a nerf. But at that point the only thing worth playing is a frame designed for facetanking.

[XioValency]

I feel like the new changes makes facetanking even easier, these shield changes actually benefit facetank/ stealth frames the most, which kind of sucks tbh, to shield gate, you need to break your shields, then after 4 seconds of taking no damage, your shields will recharge and you can shield gate again.

This is best utilized by having zero shield mods so they break faster AND playing a frame that can negate/evade/reflect all damage for 4 seconds (Like Rhino, Valkyr, Ash, Loki, Revernent, Zephyr, etc.) and using shield gating like rolling guard by negating down time.

I think these changes will be pretty good on Hydroid and Limbo though, I feel like they are the squishy casters that will actually shine with these changes, Harrow might even be pretty decent to play with heavy shields now as well.

Edited February 29, 2020 by BreezeKazero

[DraekoSilver]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Tenno shields lost weaknesses

They said "for now", I don't think that this is staying.

[DraekoSilver]

51 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

The same happened with melee 3.0 EVERYONE was already jumping to conclusions about that update without even having tried it first. The Doomsayers came out of their holes and CLAIMED that the melee 3.0 update would be the biggest nerf yet, that it would make melee weapons completely useless, etc.

The update launched, and ever since, all of the melee weapons were put on almost equal grounds.

Glaives got #*!%ed.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

This will be a death blow to my Umbra, which is squishy enough as is even with Umbral Fiber.

have you tried Life Strike on Exalted Blade? it's what I do, and I never have survivability problems as my Umbra. just perform a heavy attack and you're at full health instantly.

I think anything that makes life easier with frames like Banshee and Mag is only a good thing, frames like these get neglected at higher levels because they just can't survive even single enemy units attacking them for more than a second. spamming constant CC ends up being the only way to cope when surrounded, and that only gets you so far.

[Jarriaga]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

have you tried Life Strike on Exalted Blade? it's what I do, and I never have survivability problems as my Umbra. just perform a heavy attack and you're at full health instantly.

I don't use Life Strike as healing is already handled via 2 Rank 3 Magus Elevate, which I spam until back to full health. Else I'm using Daikyu with Nikana Prime to heal on every hit. 

I'm not referring to healing, but mitigation potential. 

My Umbra can take a Rank 5 Lich grab when both Guardians are active. Dies when only using one. 

I can't heal if I'm dead. That second Guardian leaves me with enough HP to heal myself and continue the fight. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Jarriaga

[schilds]

You can't try anything now, because they're open to adjusting all the numbers.

 

[edit] Ok, so I hadn't realised they had posted exact numbers, which are of course possible to try out :-P.

Edited February 29, 2020 by schilds

[VanFanel1980mx]

5 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

I can not more than agree with this, worse is that this is a bigger nerf to Squishy frames.

Tanky frames already have in most cases huge armor, and since Guardian does not scale with mods or have any interaction with your current base armor the frames who are going to feel it the most are squishy frames.

This is honestly the opposite what Warframe need at the moment, a wider gap in survival for squishy and tanky frames. The disparity was already insane and this is going to make it worse.

What about Arcane Barrier?

[Sahfiel]

<Blah blah, stuff is ok now after various changes.>

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sahfiel
addendum

[_Urakaze_]

this arcane is dead as it stands, along with my investment. By fusing 2 R3 guardian I punish myself by getting a worse item. GG

I mean wouldn't it be nice if it's like this: on damaged, 25% chance to gain 900 armor
At least this will make the new arcane slightly stronger than 1 old arcane but weaker than 2 old arcane

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This part:

 

Umbra with all Rank 3 bonus Umbral mods + Gladiator mods:

HP: 1250

Armor: 1013 (77.14% Damage reduction):

EHP: 5475

Abilities with damage reduction: 0

Umbra is a squishy frame. Particularly noticeable when doing solo rank 5 Lich hunting. Just because you can blind enemies constantly so they stop attacking you doesn't negate that they burn through all of that EHP in seconds even with Adaptation as he has no other form of damage mitigation or reduction when actually taking damage. Sure I don't need even a single Guardian, but the difference in how smooth the mission goes is nothing to scoff at. More so when a Lich grabs and kicks me. They are active enough to keep going for the whole mission because I don't find myself with 20 second breaks in between enemy encounters and they refresh themselves, which is why I'm calling you out on your downplay of how useful it is.

That does not compensate when shields are depleted in a second and will remain depleted because of no breathing room. If they will work as they do with Hildryn, SG is gone and won't reactivate until they regenerate to 100%, so what do you do in the meanwhile with that extra damage? You don't always have energy to cast Howl.

You are complaining about one game mode where 90% of the roster is pointless to use. And the only problem in rank 5 lich missions with Umbra is the Lich. The trash in there is trivial. There is also no indication that this shield gate will work like hildryn's since hildryn's shield gate only requires you to get to 100% due to having a long invulnerability window. Her OS gate only requires her to dip into OS for it to kick in to protect against bleed through on her normal shield.

We'll just have to see how it pans out since there will be other changes to incoming damage aswell and the changes to the tenno health class and shields will also make adaptation a stronger mod. You'll also be killing enemies faster in the changed system.

What they shouldnt do is nerf rank 3 Guardian. I dont see the point in why they do it. Might be a typo.

[Jarriaga]

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are complaining about one game mode where 90% of the roster is pointless to use. And the only problem in rank 5 lich missions with Umbra is the Lich. The trash in there is trivial. There is also no indication that this shield gate will work like hildryn's since hildryn's shield gate only requires you to get to 100% due to having a long invulnerability window. Her OS gate only requires her to dip into OS for it to kick in to protect against bleed through on her normal shield.

We'll just have to see how it pans out since there will be other changes to incoming damage aswell and the changes to the tenno health class and shields will also make adaptation a stronger mod. You'll also be killing enemies faster in the changed system.

What they shouldnt do is nerf rank 3 Guardian. I dont see the point in why they do it. Might be a typo.

Now that's a more reasonable response than your earlier dismissal. 

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Now that's a more reasonable response than your earlier dismissal. 

By the way, you know you can ultra cheese the Lich with Umbra?

Obtain a Magus Repair and possibly a Lockdown, grab a heavy crit loadout then just spectate it as operator when Umbra flatlines the Lich.

Edited February 29, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

By the way, you know you can ultra cheese the Lich with Umbra?

Obtain a Magus Repair and possibly a Lockdown, grab a heavy crit loadout then just spectate it as operator when Umbra flatlines the Lich.

I know that strategy, and don't use it. I try to avoid cheese when possible because I get bored.

That's also why I don't chase the meta and I'm mostly OK with nerfs.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Jarriaga

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I know that strategy. I try to avoid cheese when possible because I get bored.

Already have R3 Repair and Lockdown.

I feel you. Cheesing is never fun. Currently I do cheese it with Rev, but that is because I'm trying to max out the % stats on some weapons.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Doesn't make much of a difference. Double stacking guardian was a waste of time for squishes most of the time anyway. You don't gain much by sitting in guardian not moving much instead of moving around with one. Umbral forma will become more available in the future, so all of you can build up your squishies with a set of umbral mods. I run a 3 Umbra Banshee with adaption, one guardian and one energize on the allround build. Yes, I used to run with two guardians, but that simply didn't provide much more defense at the levels I'd have needed it. Running around in a toxin enhanced sortie with level 80-100 grineer usually means two well place shots and you're dead on banshee, with or without guardian. Adaption and umbral steel/vitality were much more of a boon than a double stacked guardian at the levels where guardian actually does something.

That change is also softened by enemy AI not being as accurate on high levels, which we'll still have to test.

Not worried about it, really. I'm actually looking forward to the nerfs, since power creep is one of the cancers of this game, and nerfs can me a chemo.

[Numerikuu]

15 hours ago, gavkguid said:

After reflecting on the topic, perhaps it's time to have normalized armor values? Why can't 100-150 armor be the lowest and a 'default' of sorts for all frames? I won't go into more detail, but perhaps an idea like that would make Arcane Guardian feel less needed, as well as making armor mods feel less useless for quite a few frames.

Agreed.

[(PSN)m3wheeling]

My problem is I want to play Warframe.  I am tired of having to rework weapons and loadouts that I have invested resources, time, and forma into perfecting these things around how I would like to play them only for a new release to come out that makes me have to scratch that and rework it.  Some balancing and nerfing is necessary but changing double arcane guardian is pretty much creating busy work for us without a blaring reason.  For me I use it on my weaker frames.  DE instead of messing with arcanes which work how about you fix the million bugs in Railjack.  Much butter use of your time.

[Cyanide2018]

18 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

I can not more than agree with this, worse is that this is a bigger nerf to Squishy frames.

Tanky frames already have in most cases huge armor, and since Guardian does not scale with mods or have any interaction with your current base armor the frames who are going to feel it the most are squishy frames.

This. So much this. I wish more people understood this point: this is a major nerf to the squishier frames. I have no clue why DE decided it was a good idea.

[Sahfiel]

<Snipped old rant about build diversity blah blah, the games build diversity is fine again>
I do still think people with rank 3 should have gotten rank 5's to make up for it but it wasn't too expensive to get back to max rank and you can mix grace and other stuff.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sahfiel
Removing all my old salty posts or updating.

[Loza03]

19 hours ago, gavkguid said:

After reflecting on the topic, perhaps it's time to have normalized armor values? Why can't 100-150 armor be the lowest and a 'default' of sorts for all frames? I won't go into more detail, but perhaps an idea like that would make Arcane Guardian feel less needed, as well as making armor mods feel less useless for quite a few frames.

Agreed. For one, a similar problem to the Armour/Shields problem occurs with players, where Immortal frames have ludicrously more EHP than squishies, to a degree that makes any damage value the devs land on problematic.

[Fallen77]

I'll take a shield improvement that everyone benefits from right away over an arcane that forces you to do the same salt filled boss several hundreds of time.