Shotguns Huge Nerf

[nslay]

1 hour ago, Renegade343 said:

Oh, by making sense, I mean the steps that come that definition do follow each other, and it's at least valid (under the logical sense).

Here you go (not for the faint-of-heart).

Spoiler

This is not a justification for using P = S / N in 2020... but you can at least say "it's an approximation for S small" (but for some shotguns like Strun Wraith, S is not small!).

Another interpretation is that N*P is the mean for the Binomial distribution B(N,P). So by saying P = 3 * S / N, DE is telling us that they want shotguns to proc ~ 3 * S pellets on average (but the new per-shot status chance is not S). This doesn't make very much sense... but OK!

Edited March 7, 2020 by nslay
To \infty not M!

[Renegade343]

16 minutes ago, nslay said:

Here you go (not for the faint-of-heart).

  Reveal hidden contents

This is not a justification for using P = S / N in 2020... but you can at least say "it's an approximation for S small" (but for some shotguns like Strun Wraith, S is not small!).

Another interpretation is that N*P is the mean for the Binomial distribution B(N,P). So by saying P = 3 * S / N, DE is telling us that they want shotguns to proc < 3 * S pellets on average (but the new per-shot status chance is not S). This doesn't make very much sense... but OK!

What I mean is this:

1. Start with 20%.
2. Take just the value of 20%, meaning you just take the number 20.
3. Divide 20 by the number of pellets (5), so we get 4 (let's call that 'a' for now).
4. Let the status chance of each pellet now be equal to 'a'.

Under the definition DE uses, the associated steps make sense and is valid. Whether the definition itself makes sense or is true is another thing entirely in this case (we both know it's not, but let's first disregard reality entirely and think of just pure math and mathematical manipulation). Think of it as something similar to conditional probability.

[zakaryx]

5 hours ago, Vahenir said:

Don't forget the phantasma in this matter as well. Because that was nerfed into the ground last update. From like 38% status chance to 7% per pellet, even if its a beam gun. Meaning its basically dead right now with its 3% crit chance on top of that.

Hotfix fixed it an hour later.

But it also nerfed the explosion damage in half

gg

[Vahenir]

1 minute ago, zakaryx said:

Hotfix fixed it an hour later.

But it also nerfed the explosion damage in half

gg

Its actually not fixed. Sure its higher status now but it still applies way too few status procs when using primary fire. I have 62% status per projectile on mine with 11 multishot. So in theory it should, on average, apply 6-7 procs per damage tick right? Its not even close to that. It feels more like if it had 62% to proc status but only applied to a single projectile, once per second rather than once per damage tick.

[xcrimsonlegendx]

I don't know if its just me buy my phage ain't feelin' so good.

[nslay]

6 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I don't know if its just me buy my phage ain't feelin' so good.

It's got decent crit and free Viral. Try a hybrid build and slot HM? I will try it tonight.

[Anandil2]

... people, you can argue about math all you want, is fun i do it all the time. The problem here is not that "DE's math" is wrong, they define how things work, now and before and after, at no point things have to be like you say or they have to match the old numbers, i mean the whole premise that .. i don't know wich shotgun was, but that it HAD to have aproximately 30% status now as it did before is wrong, DE changed things, THEY DON'T HAVE TO MATCH, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PERFORM THE SAME AS BEFORE.

The whole point of patches like this is for things to change.
Now, if you want to say a gun was nerfed to S#&amp;&#036; and doesn't do crap like a burston (qeue someone with their god riven killing lvl 160 heavy gunners in a sec) or something that's a point to make, but again, none should expect thing to be the same. Shotguns changed for the good and hopeffully they will tweak things if need be, but there's no need to meltdown, play with other shotguns, the changes weren't for the tigris-kohm-hek series (though i feel my vaykor hek is better now) they were for all shotguns from the S#&amp;&#036;tiest one to the best one

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

git gud,if u really have a fkin stronk riben like u said, so u shud be oneshotin any stuff. Mobs are fkin weak rn, even a full crit vaykor hek can oneshot chg 165s

[hinson_Cheung]

Phage: am i a joke to you?

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

Does anyone know if the kuva quartakk burst mode where it fires 4 bullets at once has been affected by these changes ?

I got one last night and have to say I think it's really good.  Want to know if my current 70ish % sc is gonna be each bullet has 70% sc or if its roughly 18% per bullet (so roughly 70% total)

[Zebiko]

That graphic was speculation, and tbh an awful way to represent changes. So, OP is an idiot for misusing it and plagiarizing someone else's work. 

[nslay]

I think DE should change their approximation from:

P ~ S/N

to a higher order Taylor approximation (EDIT: They might be avoiding using pow(x,1/n) because it's expensive to compute, hence why they use an approximation? Stuff like exp and pow are indeed expensive to compute.).

P ~ S/N + (1/2) * (N-1) * S^2 / N^2
P ~ S/N + (1/2) * (N-1) * S^2 / N^2 + (1/6) * (2*N-1) * (N-1) * S^3 / N^3

The latter is very accurate out to Strun Wraith levels of status. Here's a plot. The yellow line how they currently do it (and it's a poor estimate for high-status shotguns). The purple line is what it really should be.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by nslay
Add plot title

[nslay]

18 hours ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I don't know if its just me buy my phage ain't feelin' so good.

Try this hybrid build.

Spoiler

This melts level 140 Corrupted Bombards, Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Exo Gokstad Officers.

I don't like the Phage, but I was curious and spent a bunch of forma to make and test it... And it's very powerful! It can down a level 140 Exo Gokstad Officer (a bullet sponge) in about 1 magazine. That's pretty good! Phage is good in RRR. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

[xcrimsonlegendx]

22 minutes ago, nslay said:

Try this hybrid build.

  Hide contents

This melts level 140 Corrupted Bombards, Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Exo Gokstad Officers.

I don't like the Phage, but I was curious and spent a bunch of forma to make and test it... And it's very powerful! It can down a level 140 Exo Gokstad Officer (a bullet sponge) in about 1 magazine. That's pretty good! Phage is good in RRR. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

Missing a couple of those mods but I'll give it a try.

[nslay]

12 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

Missing a couple of those mods but I'll give it a try.

It's surprisingly good! I tried fancier stuff like Hunter Munitions and stuff like that on Phage but the good ole hybrid Corrosive/Heat works the best. And I guess those Heat procs are ridiculous with the Viral procs too!

[cookieknife]

secondary shotguns like akbronco/bronco prime are useless again also. It's REALLY sad

[taiiat]

what's most hilarious is some Shotguns that didn't have a Status theme previously, now literally have more consistent Status application than several Shotguns that did have a Status theme previously.

*clap*

 

19 hours ago, Anandil2 said:

THEY DON'T HAVE TO PERFORM THE SAME AS BEFORE.

Shotguns changed for the good and hopeffully they will tweak things if need be, but there's no need to meltdown, play with other shotguns, the changes weren't for the tigris-kohm-hek series

but, in a way they do since Status now all stacks, meaning to have a strong Status theme you have to have even higher functional Status Chance now than before. a couple Status Effects even got nerfed in the process of adding 10 Tiers to stack.
Shotguns do have more Pellets than they trade in Fire Rate with say, an Assault Rifle so they don't need like 10x the Status capability, but they are going to need more than their delta in Fire Rate. so if they shoot roughly 4x slower than an Assault Rifle, they're going to need roughly 4x the Status capability plus a bit - once accounting for Pellets into the premise of hits&Fire Rate relative to Status Chance, that's still needing roughly 2.5x the Status Chance.

so if an Assault Rifle with good (not even exceptionally high) Status is going to be looking at the 20-25% area usually(practical Modded max of 83.25%), then a Status themed Shotgun is going to need somewhere around 56-57% (practical Modded max of 208.125%).

 

it was for any Shotgun that didn't previously reach the Status threshold without a Riven - though more of them did than didn't, by the time this week came around. benefited Shotguns like Hek a lot (idk how you say it wasn't targeted at something like Hek when previously you had to have a Riven to get decent Status on it), but it also pushed some non Status themed Shotguns atleast on par and more likely ahead, of ones which had a Status theme previously.

 

8 hours ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

Does anyone know if the kuva quartakk burst mode where it fires 4 bullets at once has been affected by these changes ?

Quartakk is functionally a Burst Weapon, unaffected.

Edited March 7, 2020 by taiiat

[(PSN)Krikenemp]

9 hours ago, hinson_Cheung said:

Phage: am i a joke to you?

How is Phage now? I know it works very differently from normal shotguns since it's technically a beam shotgun. Did it get a status chance buff too? I know beam status chance with multishot still really needs to be looked at.

Is "critical status" as valuable as >100% crit, or is it more niche than that? It sounds like a good idea on paper, but with the changes to statuses, I'm curious if it's even worth proccing them that much in most cases, given they have stacking caps. Also, can all the new DoT effects for the statuses that got changed, like Viral, also crit like slash does?

Edited March 7, 2020 by (PS4)Krikenemp

[nslay]

1 hour ago, cookieknife said:

secondary shotguns like akbronco/bronco prime are useless again also. It's REALLY sad

Kuva Brakk is probably OK.
Let me rephrase: Kuva Brakk is the only secondary shotgun that is probably OK.

Anything with low crit (almost all secondary shotguns) just won't cut it like before. It seems you need to offset the effective status nerf with crit to perform... Vaykor Hek, Phage and Kuva Kohm with hybrid builds are still very potent. Strun Wraith should be potent (it does have decent crit)... but I can't get it to perform well for some reason!

[cookieknife]

10 minutes ago, nslay said:

Kuva Brakk is probably OK.
Let me rephrase: Kuva Brakk is the only secondary shotgun that is probably OK.

Anything with low crit (almost all secondary shotguns) just won't cut it like before. It seems you need to offset the effective status nerf with crit to perform... Vaykor Hek, Phage and Kuva Kohm with hybrid builds are still very potent. Strun Wraith should be potent (it does have decent crit)... but I can't get it to perform well for some reason!

boar prime is only decent because i have a riven with +147% slash, +120.7% status chance, +146.2% multishot, -41.5% corpus dmg. but it still seems lacking af now. Rivens seem almost mandatory unless you're doing a max dmg build...

Sancti tigris is useful still, tigris prime im not sure about

Edited March 7, 2020 by cookieknife

[schilds]

Tigris Prime performs better than Sancti Tigris.

The best way to mod has changed, or rather, shotguns are now like any other weapon. In most cases it's now more effective to balance your stats rather than stack up on a single stat (e.g. status).

Also, corrosive procs cap out at 10 now, so if you're modding for corrosive procs, you only want sufficient status chance to reliably get those 10 procs, anything more is wasted potential.

Edited March 7, 2020 by schilds

[nslay]

26 minutes ago, cookieknife said:

boar prime is only decent because i have a riven with +147% slash, +120.7% status chance, +146.2% multishot, -41.5% corpus dmg. but it still seems lacking af now. Rivens seem almost mandatory unless you're doing a max dmg build...

Sancti tigris is useful still, tigris prime im not sure about

You can still build very potent Vaykor, Phage and Kuva Kohm without Rivens thankfully. I only have a Riven for the Phage, but it's still spectacular without it.

Now the Strun Wraith on the other hand... Even with a Riven, it still sucks even though it shouldn't with a similar hybrid build.

[Anandil2]

hace 1 hora, taiiat dijo:

it was for any Shotgun that didn't previously reach the Status threshold without a Riven - though more of them did than didn't, by the time this week came around. benefited Shotguns like Hek a lot (idk how you say it wasn't targeted at something like Hek when previously you had to have a Riven to get decent Status on it), but it also pushed some non Status themed Shotguns atleast on par and more likely ahead, of ones which had a Status theme previously.

 

oh sorry i was still discussing in the mentality of "everything was nerfed bla bla" when i mentioned the hek.

I get the whole analysis you did, not complaining it's fun to read, maybe it's because i don't play so much looking at damage numbers and formulas and more of how fun they feel to play with even if they don't kill everything, but i don't really value too much the discussion of "DE should use this formula" or "the numbers should be this or that" or "DE's math lol"... again, not complaining about your analysis, it's fine and it's a valid complain.

On that last thing, yeah, most shotguns below the 100% threshold before the update now are more on par with the rest and those above seem to have gone down. I haven't tried too many yet because i don't have time but i tried my kuva brakk and it didn't shred all the armor inmediatly... still killed everything hahaha 

Like i said i know the changes  made a looooot of people mad, but DE doesn't change things with that intention, they actually want a good game and if things need some tweaks or reworks hopefully they'll do it in the coming weeks.

[taiiat]

12 minutes ago, Anandil2 said:

I get the whole analysis you did, not complaining it's fun to read, maybe it's because i don't play so much looking at damage numbers and formulas and more of how fun they feel to play with even if they don't kill everything, but i don't really value too much the discussion of "DE should use this formula" or "the numbers should be this or that" or "DE's math lol"... again, not complaining about your analysis, it's fine and it's a valid complain.

it's the general premise any sort of game balance should start at, just like how in say, a Competitive Shooter, you'd balance one Assault Rifle against each other in several factors bit the biggest one would be Damage and Fire Rate make trades in each other rather than say, one shooting 30% slower but doing triple the Damage, right?

same idea applied here - if __% Status Chance is considered appropriate by Digital Extremes for some non Shotgun Weapon that fires at __/second, then a Shotgun that trades Fire Rate for Projectiles per Shot would need to make atleast an equal trade otherwise it's almost assuredly worse, eh?
for example a classic doctrine for balancing Shooters is that if a Weapon was to shoot 5x slower than another, it needs to gain more than 5x the Damage per Shot, with an equal trade it would be the same thing but much harder to use and so not worth it. so it has to get a little bit extra for the disadvantages it took on such as 5.5 or maybe 6x, Et Cetera.

:)

 

at any rate, some theme reversals occurring because of what's been changed should give a bit of alarm that something must not be quite right here.

 

45 minutes ago, (PS4)Krikenemp said:

How is Phage now? I know it works very differently from normal shotguns since it's technically a beam shotgun. Did it get a status chance buff too?

I know beam status chance with multishot still really needs to be looked at.

it's pretty much what you'd expect, i.e. the same as before. 

Multi-Shot for Continuous Weapons doesn't need to be looked at, it's perfectly fine. Continuous Weapons have very strong innate Status performance, especially if they're Elemental Base, and Phage is both of those.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

it's pretty much what you'd expect, i.e. the same as before. 

Multi-Shot for Continuous Weapons doesn't need to be looked at, it's perfectly fine. Continuous Weapons have very strong innate Status performance, especially if they're Elemental Base, and Phage is both of those.

I don't imagine that being true for Phantasma. Convectrix maybe... But the status applications of shotguns has effectively (definitely) been nerfed and crit can compensate for that. Phantasma has really bad crit and Convectrix still has something respectable I suppose.

Phage is good because it has a base 19% crit. That's the same as Kuva Kohm and even before RRR, Kuva Kohm modded for Crit and Hunter Munititions was competitive with pure 100% status (see Leyzar's video for example). But Phantasma with 3% crit? This weapon is almost certainly garbage in RRR and nothing can fix it except for DE rebalancing the weapon. I will play with it later today... I'm almost completely sure there are no redeemable qualities to Phantasma now.

I've been playing with Phage all day... You absolutely have to use that 19% crit to make it work now. It does not work well without it.