Discussion on recent direction of DE, updates and tennocon

[Roble_Viejo]

 

 

   TL;DW: 
   - "I think that's kinda been the philosophy, is like the community latches onto things for a certain reason, instead of just smacking their hands and saying "No, that's not my vision" is like how can we embrace it? How we can bring that into the game?" - [DE] Scott 2 Years Ago

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Is there a tl:dw?

[Redfeather75]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Is there a tl:dw?

It is about coptering specifically. When players learned to do something unintended and overpowered, Scott talked about how it was game breaking but it was turned into a new mechanic that could be made more controllable so that it wasn't overpowered.

And I think that is what the healing static object thing happening now is doing.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

And I think that is what the healing static object thing happening now is doing.

Turning a gamebreaking thing into a more controllable mechanic, you mean? I can get on board with that if that’s the case

[Roble_Viejo]

hace 49 minutos, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu dijo:

Is there a tl:dw?

TL:DW added to the post, this was what I wanted to highlight but the youtube links with specific timestamps are not working correctly
- "I think that's kinda been the philosophy, is like the community latches onto things for a certain reason, instead of just smacking their hands and saying "No, that's not my vision" is like how can we embrace it? How we can bring that into the game?" [DE] Scott 2 years ago

[(NSW)Greybones]

38 minutes ago, Roble_Viejo said:

TL:DW added to the post, this was what I wanted to highlight but the youtube links with specific timestamps are not working correctly
- "I think that's kinda been the philosophy, is like the community latches onto things for a certain reason, instead of just smacking their hands and saying "No, that's not my vision" is like how can we embrace it? How we can bring that into the game?" [DE] Scott 2 years ago

Good philosophy. Hard to do. ...really hard to do.

In fact, I’d say insanely hard to do, and when they can give us what we want, it should be applauded instead of lamented that we aren’t given more.

Personally, I very much doubt the philosophy has died at this point. It’s a good one, and to not embrace it requires a callousness that people are quick to attribute to someone who struggles to listen to every voice.

They’re still trying. Some of us just think they’re not

Edited April 6, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Roble_Viejo]

hace 47 minutos, Redfeather75 dijo:

It is about coptering specifically. When players learned to do something unintended and overpowered, Scott talked about how it was game breaking but it was turned into a new mechanic that could be made more controllable so that it wasn't overpowered.

And I think that is what the healing static object thing happening now is doing.

Honestly in my case is a sum of things, is because of all the unnecessary nerfs in the last couple of years, and this haste to nerf "gamebreaking" stuff when they don't seem to rush to fix bugs, or ludicrous rewards costs, or whopping resources costs, or the latency and decaying quality of lore advancing updates. 

In a pve game based on power fantasy they are more concerned about nerfing things than to giving us ways to use that power. And this is a shifting in mind set that happened recently, this is not what DE standed for 2 years ago, it as the opposite. And I really want them to realize that, to go back to be the old DE. And we all need the community to stop sugar coating this and start demanding improvement because the game will go downhill. And I love this game, and the guys in DE, too much to sit and watch it happen. Warframe deserves better, Tenno deserve better. 

[Lluid]

58 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

And I think that is what the healing static object thing happening now is doing.

Can anyone elaborate ? I'm not aware of what is "happening now", except that OpLinks are the first things we can't heal at all AFAIK. If that's about OpLinks, how does it compare to coptering ?

Edited April 6, 2020 by Lluid

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 minutes ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Tenno deserve better. 

Umm.... 😐

hrmmmm....

I see what some of my fellow Tenno say and act like.

Edited April 6, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Roble_Viejo]

hace 3 minutos, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

Good philosophy. Hard to do. ...really hard to do.

In fact, I’d say insanely hard to do, and when they can give us what we want, it should be applauded instead of lamented that we aren’t given more.

Its not hard at all. Self damage for example: Remove it? Excellent, it only took some years of complaining to DE to realize that the game is too fast paced to have self damage. Replace for stagger? Fair, if a weapon can delete enemies is fair to punish spamming it without thinking. Adding self stagger to ALL AOE WEAPONS? No, unnecessary, pointless, and was implemented quite literally as a "slap in the wrist" for the community to stop asking them for stuff. 

Same just happened with objective healing, instead of saying, "fine, you need ways to keep the objective alive, we get it" and keeping things as they were they enabled it across the board but nerfed it so its pretty much useless on objectives. Lvl 30 infested do like 150 - 200 dmg to hp per second to an unshielded objective, best heals now do 500hp per second. This is ridiculous. All heals to objectives should be %hp. 

Vacuum too, oh so you want vacuum on everything? There you go, but its nerfed, and it still takes up a mod slot, even if everybody and their mothers run vacuum. 

This is happening more and more often and it's becoming more aggressive, they are faster to nerf things than to do anything else. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Its not hard at all. 

Please tell me you have a good reason for saying this. Your post was lacking in anything other than subjective interpretation.

I think I’m seeing why this topic was made, and I probably shouldn’t have said anything 😓. But I’m apparently gonna keep saying things! 🤨

Edited April 6, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Uhkretor]

3 minutes ago, Roble_Viejo said:

as a "slap in the wrist" for the community to stop asking them for stuff.

And with enough "slaps in the wrist", but on both of them, to rebuild the entire Orokin Empire from scratch 9999 times, the community should've learned its lesson by now.

 

... I'm so glad I don't ask anything, since everything else that I didn't ask and was implemented due to community wanting "slaps in both wrists" is ammo for me to throw at everyone else's face when things don't go their way... like that Invulnerability exploit that completely trivialized more than a single game mode... especially when such trivialization should not exist for a reason... As it was mentioned by the Staff.

 

... "Lets crank it up a notch and see how the Devs will respond to it" is, apparently, what people do... And when the Devs aren't reacting fast enough, people think they aren't paying attention...

Well... Guess what?

Spoiler

... They are.

[Aeon94]

16 minutes ago, Lluid said:

Can anyone elaborate ? I'm not aware of what is "happening now", except that OpLinks are the first things we can't heal at all AFAIK. If that's about OpLinks, how does it compare to coptering ?

 

[Annnoth]

30 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Good philosophy. Hard to do. ...really hard to do.

In fact, I’d say insanely hard to do, and when they can give us what we want, it should be applauded instead of lamented that we aren’t given more.

Personally, I very much doubt the philosophy has died at this point. It’s a good one, and to not embrace it requires a callousness that people are quick to attribute to someone who struggles to listen to every voice.

They’re still trying. We just think they’re not

There was a bug with garuda where the dread heart will keep charging at 0 energy if you have any energy left. This allowed you to basically rack up infinite damage if someone uses octavia or energizing dash. But it was inconsistent.

Well one day they just made it a feature. Its a lot more consistent even if it builds slower. 

Perhaps it was easier to do this than fix it? I dunno. But it still happens.

[ILOHARTA]

2 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

It is about coptering specifically. When players learned to do something unintended and overpowered, Scott talked about how it was game breaking but it was turned into a new mechanic that could be made more controllable so that it wasn't overpowered.

And I think that is what the healing static object thing happening now is doing.

wait, even DE admitted that some abilities could already heal mission objectives, so the "unintended" part doesn't add up.
They are rushing to nerf what wrecks the game in the short term, completely missing sight of the "big picture", that comprises past, present and future. It's a dangerous move, and it's mind boggling to be aware of how many times they do this instead of facing the issue head on.

[(NSW)Greybones]

11 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

wait, even DE admitted that some abilities could already heal mission objectives, so the "unintended" part doesn't add up.
They are rushing to nerf what wrecks the game in the short term, completely missing sight of the "big picture", that comprises past, present and future. It's a dangerous move, and it's mind boggling to be aware of how many times they do this instead of facing the issue head on.

What are your thoughts on a big picture of the past, present, and future?

[ILOHARTA]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

What are your thoughts on a big picture of the past, present, and future?

I get paid good money to write my opinion, and I can't write ten pages of academic dissertations here. To keep it simple, I'll quote what I already said in the feedback thread: "instead of nerfing what works, boost what doesn't". This is the critical first step they should take to begin going in the right direction. Let's face it, the game has tons of weapons, arcanes, mechanics and whatnot that are completely useless: what about implementing a more coherent and streamlined experience? they do have the capabilities to do so, and they have proved themselves, so it's a pity to get rushed products and a game that resembles more a patchwork rather than a coherent and rational universe. It is not beneficial to us players nor it is to them, especially in the long term.

[trst]

A community of armchair developers is not something any developer should strictly listen to. Feedback is one thing, which does in-fact get added regularly, adding suggestions exactly as suggested is the fast track to creating bigger problems down the line and killing a game.

The biggest thing I see constantly with suggestions is that seemingly nobody considers the in/direct ramifications their suggestion would have to other aspects of the game. People shouting for outright removal of self damage is short-sighted because that directly risks pushing the game back into a meta like the Tonkor or Simulor days, but now we would only see the Bramma and Lenz. Uni-vac is something players view as a necessity, yet the devs have a history of combating full afk macro farming and several mechanics still exist today solely to combat that. Or the entirety of people claiming that any nerf is a bad thing, letting things continue to be overpowered either restricts future development of content or creates major content creep issues (which we've been suffering from for years now).

Now, no, none of this is to say that the dev's word is law either as they do regularly get things wrong at the start. But when the devs get something wrong they can still change or even remove it later, when player suggestions get things wrong then it becomes the devs changing or removing exactly what the players asked for. This is especially problematic if you consider how divided the community gets on topics; too easy/too hard, too grindy/not enough to do, wants more of x/refuses to do more x, etc. Consider Arbitration revives, something players asked for since the mode launched, which was made into the token system as a middle ground yet still gained controversy. And to remove the feature as players requested would be removing something another group asked for and already got.

[(NSW)Greybones]

17 hours ago, trst said:

A community of armchair developers is not something any developer should strictly listen to.

I like your post.

A thing I’ve noticed surrounding many suggestions that get thrown out onto the forum is that many don’t bother seeking the input from others. It tends to be a “Take it or leave it”, and when counter points are produced, communication has a nasty habit of falling apart when the original poster refuses to acknowledge flaws in their reasoning. (misunderstanding intent behind responses contributes heavily to communication breakdown, too)

I strongly get the impression that most posters are inclined to think their one solution will solve problems in a strictly beneficial way.

When good, objective discussion happens, ideas are subjected to scrutiny and broken down to be reassembled into compromise. Rarely if ever does an idea survive unscathed. Instead it belongs in the wringer to be picked apart and built up until it does solve problems in a way that satisfies more than what was originally considered the core problem.

Most of us on the forums aren’t game developers, and so we don’t have that professional knowledge that let us bounce ideas off each other in a way that concisely drills down to a possible solution. We’ve only got fellow gamers (for the most part), and I think that, in some cases, some people don’t want their ideas picked apart 😕 Discussion is hard and scary, and the chance to be proven wrong is definitely there. I doubt any of us want to be made a fool, but it needs to be noted that, for most points made, they’re coming from a considered perspective, regardless of who made the point. And they often deserve to be thought through by anyone who reads them to understand where the poster is coming from, lest an idea arises that implies someone’s stupid because they disagree with the reader, instead of being nuanced and thoughtful and simply coming from a different, unexpected direction

Edited April 7, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[rand0mname]

If you try to please everyone, you will end up pleasing no one. Especially in the long run.

I hope that those who deal with forum feedback are not affected by it and regularly see good ideas. Certain posters act like... IDK, a company of old ladies having a week long tea party in a all-you-can-eat-bakery and entertaining themselves by providing constructive feedback for the cake. Everything is good for a while and then suddenly polite conversation takes a sharp turn and becomes a Walpurgis Nights of Cake Bashing (while ladies eat said cake, ask for a clean plate for every piece, sweetly remind the waiter to refill tea pot every minute and passively-aggressively wonder if it is so hard to decorate the table with wild flowers in the middle of nowhere during winter). Oh, and of course each of esteemed guests have their own idea of the perfect cake (and a set of allergies and dietary preferences). And a strong opinion about establishment inability to keep the house clean - will you look at all those crumbs!

Yeh. This can be fun to watch from a safe distance, but working in that buffet? Hope the pay is good and coworkers are awesome.

Edited April 6, 2020 by rand0mname

[Hypernaut1]

People really think they have better ideas on a whim than these (successful) professional video game developers have documented in fleshed out detail in tons of files with direct knowledge of what is and isn't capable with the code they created. 

I doubt it. It's just that making a perfect  game isn't as easy as theory crafting a wish list on a feedback forum. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[Roble_Viejo]

hace 1 hora, rand0mname dijo:

If you try to please everyone, you will end up pleasing no one. Especially in the long run.

I hope that those who deal with forum feedback are not affected by it and regularly see good ideas. Certain posters act like... IDK, a company of old ladies having a week long tea party in a all-you-can-eat-bakery and entertaining themselves by providing constructive feedback for the cake. Everything is good for a while and then suddenly polite conversation takes a sharp turn and becomes a Walpurgis Nights of Cake Bashing (while ladies eat said cake, ask for a clean plate for every piece, sweetly remind the waiter to refill tea pot every minute and passively-aggressively wonder if it is so hard to decorate the table with wild flowers in the middle of nowhere during winter). Oh, and of course each of esteemed guests have their own idea of the perfect cake (and a set of allergies and dietary preferences). And a strong opinion about establishment inability to keep the house clean - will you look at all those crumbs!

Yeh. This can be fun to watch from a safe distance, but working in that buffet? Hope the pay is good and coworkers are awesome.

 

I love this comment so much

[Savire510]

3 hours ago, rand0mname said:

If you try to please everyone, you will end up pleasing no one. Especially in the long run.

I hope that those who deal with forum feedback are not affected by it and regularly see good ideas. Certain posters act like... IDK, a company of old ladies having a week long tea party in a all-you-can-eat-bakery and entertaining themselves by providing constructive feedback for the cake. Everything is good for a while and then suddenly polite conversation takes a sharp turn and becomes a Walpurgis Nights of Cake Bashing (while ladies eat said cake, ask for a clean plate for every piece, sweetly remind the waiter to refill tea pot every minute and passively-aggressively wonder if it is so hard to decorate the table with wild flowers in the middle of nowhere during winter). Oh, and of course each of esteemed guests have their own idea of the perfect cake (and a set of allergies and dietary preferences). And a strong opinion about establishment inability to keep the house clean - will you look at all those crumbs!

Yeh. This can be fun to watch from a safe distance, but working in that buffet? Hope the pay is good and coworkers are awesome.

 

_{Sometimes i wonder how DE staff reading these forums feels, like how do they react to a topic where someone just says that DE doesnt care anymore about their game or all DE decisions from few past years are just bad. Does it impact morale? Does it make them feel worse about working on warframe? hmmmmm}

[(PSN)Gentleman_Raven_]

Hey Tenno

I have been playing Warframe for 5 years and observed that there are 2 major camps- 

1) We want new content NOW

2) We want content already out FIXED

So DE has been walking a fine line between the two, and honestly, not done a very good job of balancing them. When they do get new content out it's buggy as hell, and with some content released years ago there are still bugs. 

So what should DE do? Listen to the Veterans who want new content or fix the old content for new players?

[(PSN)yo_rookiEH]

i always find it funny when ppl talk "end of the world" scenario on abilities n nerfs n buffs etc. lets face it this game is easy af! i burn thru EVERYTHING regardless if im on pc or ps4, solo or group, regardless of game mode. most games i play u die regularly. sometimes it takes hours just to complete 1 objective bc if u miss one step or are late to heal ur party wipes. tell me the last time its happened to u in wf? again its a free to play game. its the DEVS game...not yours. if u dont like their game ur free to play 1 u do. i only keep my pc acct bc i hate how long it takes 2 test n cert. and sure theyres things i dislike about changes. however if i got to the enraged point i see in many posts id quit. theres never been a time where i couldnt wipe out a node same after as pre update. be constructive, do better, or create ur own game n show us how "easy" it is to do all these things u think de should do...