Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb Sebastianx:

If DE wants to "nerf" the Bramma, just add a very tanky enemy in the game that you have to shoot weak points to deal damage to, for every faction, and you'll see a spike in the usage of snipers instead of Bramma.

Lol no. I have two words for you.

Nox? Juggernaut?  

Ever fought against them?

[Bristoling]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

[...]

When I talk about nerfing it, I don't mean nerfing it to be unusable. Stop strawmaning and misrepresenting things that I (and others) say, because I talked about nerfing it to the point where it lands with other top tier weapons without overshadowing them. I have to repeat my arguments over and over in hope that you understand the meaning behind them instead of attacking arguments I didn't even make. Take a step back, deep breath in, then come back with actual arguments instead of setting up yet another strawman. Also, instead of arguing the point behind the message you are arguing the writing of said message.

Like, when you completely ignore things I wrote here:

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 or farmable from some uber hard, challenging boss, there would be no problem with its stats

and concentrate on previous, non quintessential example in my argument. Or, pretending like you won some kind of point when I said this:

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As in, run public missions so others can do everything for you.

By yourself replying with this:

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Sounds like you are letting them do everything for you. Maybe try playing the game actually? Or even better. Playing Solo. You'd be doing everyone a favor at this point. 

When I was obviously talking about low MR tenno who do let other players finish things for them because they want to get this OP weapon early. I can carry myself solo in all content in the game, thank you very much. I could go on and reply to most of your previous response, but I feel it is a waste of my time.

 

You assume a lot of things that are wrong, misrepresent others taking things out of context, and don't follow logic. You use numerous fallacies including strawman, false dilemma, ad-hominem and tu quoque. I'm sorry to say but the person who's wrong on multiple accounts is you. 

Stop being disingenuous if you can't refute an argument head on. Bye

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

There's an exilus slot now, so the ammo mutation argument is a bit silly, especially since Bramma has 80 capacity.

If you want a laugh, check out a  Bramma loadout with no exilus and mutation in the 8th slot, and compare it to Kuva Ogris with a full loadout.   Same kuva bonus potential, same MR, both AoE,  so ostensibly the same tier...  

[dota_Icarus]

DE only nerfs because of over popularity, not because of overpowered.

In most cases, these two criteria just meet each other.

However, if smth is hidden op and not getting abused, DE is normally fine with that.

 

Now seeing how strong bramma is and how often it is used, bramma met both criteria.

I can assume the bramma usage% could even top the catchmoon usage% the higher mastery rank goes.

The result would then certainly be a nerf from DE, we don't need ask for that.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

9 hours ago, Bristoling said:

When I talk about nerfing it, I don't mean nerfing it to be unusable.  Stop strawmaning and misrepresenting things that I (and others) say, because I talked about nerfing it to the point where it lands with other top tier weapons without overshadowing them.

Except you don't even know how to balance the Bramma's low ammo pool and its damage to keep it in line with other weapons. 

What you really mean is "I'm butthurt the Bramma is a good weapon, So I want it nerfed." Notice how you called the Kuva nukor op, till I informed you its base damage was close to the Atomos, with the only real difference being its status chance, and customized element. You lost the argument cause you said it was op, when it was close to other weapons. You just conveniently dropped that argument. 

Don't even try to lie dude. Earlier in this post you admitted that you hated the Bramma is the most efficient weapon to farm with. If you had any sense about you, you would just choose to use the other weapons that kill mere nanoseconds slower then the bramma. (Yes, they exist.) On low tier content (level 40 and under) the Acceltra kills faster then the bramma simply because its a full auto rocket launcher. (No charge time, faster flight speed and radial explosion on the acceltra.)

De doesn't have a good track record when it comes to nerfs. From my memory, when they nerf something it becomes nigh unusable and quickly replaced. Gammacor, simulor, tonkor ring a bell? I haven't seen a single player use these weapons in three years. I tried them once hoping a riven would fix the gammacor. I was quite disappointed. 

Your entire argument doesn't even bother being truthful about the facts. Do you even know the Bramma's dps numbers, or does it simply "seem" high to you? You didn't know the Nukor's damage was only slightly higher then other handheld beams. So when it comes to the bramma? Of course you don't know. The Acceltra is a fully auto rifle. It can get around 114,652.407 SUSTAINED DPS. The Bramma? 148,264.022 SUSTAINED DPS (Assuming you have the ammo to keep that up.) Believe it or not, That puts both the Acceltra in a good place, and the Bramma in a good place. Except the Bramma has a 90% damage falloff, compared to the Acceltra's 50% damage falloff. 
So the Minimum damage of the Acceltra puts it at 67k sustained Dps, and the Bramma at 14k Sustained dps. Damage falloff is quite harsh. 

(Mastery rank 8 weapon vs the endgame mr 15 kuva weapon.) 

As long as DE doesn't pull a corrinth prime with the acceltra... the Acceltra Prime should it ever exist, has a really good chance at beating the Bramma. All it would take is giving the Acceltra Prime a 3.5x critical multiplier. It's not that far off, and seeing as the Bramma has the lowest ammo pool of any weapon without innate ammo regen, it is balanced. No weapon in the entire game has ammo as low as the Bramma's without something to mitigate it. Thank God Ammo mutation exists. 

Because without ammo mutation, the Bramma would be a terrible weapon. This is something you can't even pretend otherwise. 
 

11 hours ago, Bristoling said:

Like, when you completely ignore things I wrote here:

The funny part is that you think Warframe was ever challenging. It wasn't.

Warframe has never been a hard game. That's why DE is adding a HARD MOD. and a ULTRA HARD MODE. Warframe has always been an easy game that's more about building your loadout in a smart way then being a challenging game. 

IF you want a challenging game, Warframe isn't it. The most challenging content in warframe was the raids, and the PvP. 

Want proof? When is the last time you failed a single mission? How about another one. What's the strongest warframe in the game? Unless your answer was Octavia you were wrong. Octavia is the single warframe in the game capable of killing level 3,000 enemies in reasonable amount of time. How does Octavia do this? Turn invisible, put down a mallet, let the enemy shoot the Mallet... That's literally it. Frames like Limbo, Nyx, valkyr, revenant, nidus, harrow, hydroid and inaros all have abilities that make immune to all damage, or unkillable during certain conditions. Being immortal, is literally the opposite of challenging. 

If you want a challenging game, try something like Dark Souls, Monster Hunter World or any game with a difficulty setting. When you play an actually hard game like Monster Hunter, you might learn that Nerfing top tier weapons is a terrible idea when it comes to top tier content. The strongest Greatsword in the game can do 1500 damage in its strongest hit. 

When you fight low tier stuff its op. You can kill the early monsters in 2-3 hits. When you fight endgame content, with 66,000 health, and that enemy kills you in 2 consecutive hits, its an entirely different story. It takes 45 hits for you to kill something that kills you in 2 hits. Meanwhile it heals, can hit you with status effects, and if 3 people die its game over. 

Warframe isn't hard. And unless the Bramma is op in the new hard modes that are going to be added, you still don't have an argument. 

11 hours ago, Bristoling said:

When I was obviously talking about low MR tenno who do let other players finish things for them because they want to get this OP weapon early. I can carry myself solo in all content in the game, thank you very much.

Most players can carry themselves. But people like you complain that its possible for your teammates do be too strong, and so you sit back and let them carry you. So instead of advocating for a challenge, you just whine that while you do a boring farm, they are making the farm faster with better weapons. Sorry, farming isn't engaging or fun. I want faster farms to do things that are actually fun. 

How about you do something besides farm, or letting other people beat missions for you and go find the strongest enemies you can kill, and see how long you can kill them for. I found that around level 148 the sentient enemies in scarlet spear were eating all of my bramma ammo. I legitimately switched weapons to kill them at that point. 

11 hours ago, Bristoling said:

You assume a lot of things that are wrong, misrepresent others taking things out of context, 

And you'd be wrong here. As per usual. Honesty is not a trait you are capable of. True or False. The Bramma has a low ammo pool. 

True or false, nearly every build of the Kuva Bramma has a method of regaining ammo for it

True or False, the Kuva bramma was a weapon added as a reward of kuva lich bosses. 

True or false, the Kuva Bramma has a mr rank assignment of mr 15. 

True or False, the bramma is only obtainable from killing a kuva lich. 

True or false, The Kuva bramma relies on killing enemies, and converting ammo drops to replenish its ammo. 

True or false, nerfing the bramma's damage lowers its ability to kill. Lowering its ability to kill also reduces its ability to replenish ammo.

True or false. Warframe has always had a best weapon, for every category of weapon. (Primary, secondary, melee etc.) 

All of these are true. You argument is so inept, you couldn't even understand basic facts of most video games. Nor did you even try to argue them when they were brought up. Your false assertions of weapons not being content, your reasoning for the nerfs, and your dismissal of anyone's opinion who isn't you kills your argument. You prefer to complain about teammates doing the mission for you, instead of doing the mission yourself. You hate something cause it's meta, and don't have an actual credible reason to hate it. Only a dozen of other weapons trivialize content like the Bramma does. The Kuva weapon series having several other weapons that can perform just as well. (Kuva nukor and its status for example.) 

Unless you can give me a reason more then "It farms low content quickly. Its one of the most popular weapons right now." You don't have a good reason for the nerf. 

You can pretend what I said was false, and you can label every pathetic attempt at disproving my arguments. Except you lost the moment you didn't have a counter for them. 

Prime weapons can be traded, bought with prime access, or are just rng. There's nothing really difficult about getting them apart from RNG. Some prime part missions are below level 30. The enemies you fight aren't even higher then the star chart sometimes. How difficult is it to buy prime access? If you buy prime access, and get the prime weapons, how is that MORE difficult then killing a kuva lich that gets more armor, more health, and more damage every encounter? 

If the only thing you can do is repeat yourself again, you've lost the argument. Go find somebody else and let them right a decent argument for you. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

26 minutes ago, dota_Icarus said:

I can assume the bramma usage% could even top the catchmoon usage% the higher mastery rank goes.

Nah. The catchmoon had more use then all other kitguns combined. (more because the other kitguns were terrible. Buffing the other kitguns would have been a better idea imo.) 

[Berzerkules]

Melee > Bramma

[Bristoling]

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What you really mean is "I'm butthurt the Bramma is a good weapon, So I want it nerfed." Notice how you called the Kuva nukor op, till I informed you its base damage was close to the Atomos, with the only real difference being its status chance, and customized element. You lost the argument cause you said it was op, when it was close to other weapons. You just conveniently dropped that argument. 

No I'm not. And I have to repeat myself yet again because you seem to be stuck in a loop. I am not butthurt because Bramma is good. I am simply stating a fact that Bramma doesn't deserve to be much better for most in-game content than other weapons requiring similar investment/grind. It should be in line with other weapons of its supposed tier.

I skipped Nukor because I'm not here to teach you simple math. But here you go, comparison to Atomos: Base damage: 26-33.6 with the bonus vs 29. 50% status vs 21%. 2.11 damage multiplier with 2 Prime crit mods vs 1.55 (.201 crit chance x 10.5 multi vs .43 crit chance x 3.6 multi). Which goes up to 6.83 multiplier with Arcane Avenger vs 3.16 with Atomos. Nukor is much better than Atomos, that also easily allows you to apply 4 status effects instead of usual 2. So no, its not close to other weapons of its type, you just don't know how to reach its full potential.

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Except you don't even know how to balance the Bramma's low ammo pool and its damage to keep it in line with other weapons.

The closest weapon to Bramma is Lenz with a whooping ammo pool of 6. Sure, it has innate mutation. But you have 3 ways of fixing Bramma's ammo economy. Aura, companion, or Exilus slot. Therefore it is completely in line with other weapons. You are grasping at straws.

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Except the Bramma has a 90% damage falloff, compared to the Acceltra's 50% damage falloff. 
So the Minimum damage of the Acceltra puts it at 67k sustained Dps, and the Bramma at 14k Sustained dps. Damage falloff is quite harsh. 

You forgot to compare their radius. Acceltra deals 50% of its AoE damage at 4m, but Acceltra's AoE damage is only 62% of damage, so really you are dealing 31% of damage at 4m. Bramma deals 55% of its AoE damage at 4.15m - since 81.7% of total damage applies to AoE, it means Bramma is dealing 45% of its damage at 4.15m. You math is wrong because you are comparing apple to an orange. Bramma deals more of its dps at same/similar distance as Acceltra's max radius.

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Because without ammo mutation, the Bramma would be a terrible weapon. This is something you can't even pretend otherwise. 

I'm not pretending. But you got numerous options to deal with this downside to the point where it doesn't matter. Since it doesn't matter, it's pointless to bring it up. Simple as that. I think around 5 other people already pointed it out but you keep banging your head against the wall.

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The funny part is that you think Warframe was ever challenging. It wasn't.

I never stated that. You are either projecting your own intellectual ramblings or are being disingenuous yet again. 

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Warframe isn't hard. And unless the Bramma is op in the new hard modes that are going to be added, you still don't have an argument.

New "Ultra Hard" modes with level 120-140 enemies won't change a thing since DE nerfed enemies across the board. A Bramma build one or two shots groups of Corrupted Heavy Gunners level 170 btw, most enemies are much weaker than CHGs.

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and so you sit back and let them carry you. So instead of advocating for a challenge, you just whine that while you do a boring farm, they are making the farm faster with better weapons. Sorry, farming isn't engaging or fun. I want faster farms to do things that are actually fun. 

How about you do something besides farm, or letting other people beat missions for you and go find the strongest enemies you can kill, and see how long you can kill them for. I found that around level 148 the sentient enemies in scarlet spear were eating all of my bramma ammo. I legitimately switched weapons to kill them at that point.

I actually carry most teams I'm in. You are still grasping at the much earlier statement that, as I explained already, was made in response to new players getting carried. Do you have reading comprehension problems? Honest question. If not then you are misrepresenting what I said, setting yet another strawman. Again.

Anyway please tell me, what would you add to the game to do your part in "advocating for challenge"? Because I hate to break this to you, but to make Warframe challenging, we would have to massively nerf (or rather, rework) player power, including braindead frames like Mesa/Saryn/Limbo, or weapons like Bramma. You cannot keep increasing player power by adding weapons like the Bramma and ask for "challenge" at the same time. Sure, you could buff enemies in response to players getting stronger and stronger, but that's an ass backwards approach because we as players will just use the same cheesy strats we've been always using.

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I found that around level 148 the sentient enemies in scarlet spear were eating all of my bramma ammo. I legitimately switched weapons to kill them at that point. 

Well duh, Sentients have damage gate. You cannot one shot them, that's why people picked fast firing weapons (or Mesa) coupled with Paracesis or Redeemer P (which shots are calculated as multihitting, better dealing with the damage gates). But I guess you will use this 1% of gameplay where Brama isn't the top pick to justify talking about 99% of all other cases instead.

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And you'd be wrong here. As per usual. Honesty is not a trait you are capable of. True or False. The Bramma has a low ammo pool. True. It doesn't matter since there are multiple ways of dealing with it.

True or false, nearly every build of the Kuva Bramma has a method of regaining ammo for it. True. So? It doesn't make Bramma any less weaker, these methods are easy to work around.

True or False, the Kuva bramma was a weapon added as a reward of kuva lich bosses. True. So what? Liches are easy content.

True or false, the Kuva Bramma has a mr rank assignment of mr 15. True. Has an internal MR, but can be claimed and used by any Tenno who finished War Within. So effecively, it doesn't matter.

True or False, the bramma is only obtainable from killing a kuva lich. True, but you are repeating yourself. 

True or false, The Kuva bramma relies on killing enemies, and converting ammo drops to replenish its ammo. True. Every other weapon also relies on killing enemies to replenish ammo. So what?

True or false, nerfing t whayhe bramma's damage lowers its ability to kill. Lowering its ability to kill also reduces its ability to replenish ammo. True. But in your head Bramma deals either 1 million or 0.1 damage, with nothing in between. Now how was/is Lenz even usable with lower ammo pool, granted that both weapons can easily use mutators?

True or false. Warframe has always had a best weapon, for every category of weapon. (Primary, secondary, melee etc.) True to a degree. There are multiple weapons that fit in the "top tier" category without objectively clear winner. Subjectively some weapons might be considered "the best". That is still not a justification to have any weapon at all being "the best", because it removes choice, rather than increases it. Also, this is an appeal to tradition fallacy. 

All of these are true. You argument is so inept, you couldn't even understand basic facts of most video games. Nor did you even try to argue them when they were brought up. I didn't argue them because your arguments are mostly fallacious, illogical, simply wrong, or offtopic. 

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and your dismissal of anyone's opinion who isn't you kills your argument.

Projecting your own feelings again.

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Your false assertions of weapons not being content

Semantics. You are arguing my stylistic choice of describing a concept instead of arguing the concept behind it. I said "Weapons aren't content. Weapons are means to do content with and development should focus on giving us more things to do, not more things to do old things with". Do you agree with the bolded part as a concept, which was my whole point? Or prefer to argue the choice of words which is pointless and doesn't get anyone anywhere? Let me reiterate for you: adding weapons is just turning Warframe into a S#&$ty collectors game with no depth. We need more actual, new content to take the weapons we already have and do that content using them. Do you agree or disagree? Or do you think like leveling yet another new weapon on Hydron/ESO classifies as "great, magnificent, outstanding content"?

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You prefer to complain about teammates doing the mission for you, instead of doing the mission yourself.

Already addressed it, what, 3 times now? Yeah... no, sorry. You are misrepresenting what I said, all the time.

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Unless you can give me a reason more then "It farms low content quickly. Its one of the most popular weapons right now." You don't have a good reason for the nerf. 

I already gave you one, but you refuse to listen or acknowledge it. Here it is (again):

There won't be a singular "best" weapon after Bramma nerf because other weapons are more in line with each other, which promotes diversity if there are more weapons on the same power level. Imagine it like a scale, where currently there's 10 weapons in 70-80 power range, and Bramma that is alone as 94. Why do you think putting Bramma back into 70-80 power range would be disastrous? Why not have 11 weapons in 70-80 power range increasing diversity and choice, compared to subconsciously forcing everyone to pick 1 weapon?

Warframe can and should be balanced to have numerous "best weapons", not one that has clearly OP stats and usability. You are having fun using only Bramma now, but you are shooting yourself in the foot, because now every new weapon DE releases is going to be S#&$ in your opinion because it won't beat Bramma. You will be using the same weapon, same playstyle, and you will more likely get bored with the game earlier and quit. By defending objectively OP weapon you are doing yourself a disservice.

Can't wait for the next round of replies thrown against arguments I didn't even make, taking things out of context (where context invalidates your position), and repeating that I don't respond to your arguments when I already did to most important ones, and if I didn't respond to something minor and completely offtopic (like Nukor)... well you can't expect me to respond to every sentence one by one, can you?

You can try to claim you won some points here but you are constantly using fallacious arguments and misrepresent my position by adding your projections and assumptions despite things being explained to you before. In English, this means your arguments were simply incorrect.

You even need me to explain to you why Atomos and Kuva Nukor are in completely different ballpark, or how to properly compare dps of AoE weapons (since your comparison was atrociously bad, lol). Basic objective facts seem to elude you. Are you a Barruk main or something?

[dota_Icarus]

40分钟前 , Bristoling 说:

No I'm not. And I have to repeat myself yet again because you seem to be stuck in a loop. I am not butthurt because Bramma is good. I am simply stating a fact that Bramma doesn't deserve to be much better for most in-game content than other weapons requiring similar investment/grind. It should be in line with other weapons of its supposed tier.

I skipped Nukor because I'm not here to teach you simple math. But here you go, comparison to Atomos: Base damage: 26-33.6 with the bonus vs 29. 50% status vs 21%. 2.11 damage multiplier with 2 Prime crit mods vs 1.55 (.201 crit chance x 10.5 multi vs .43 crit chance x 3.6 multi). Which goes up to 6.83 multiplier with Arcane Avenger vs 3.16 with Atomos. Nukor is much better than Atomos, that also easily allows you to apply 4 status effects instead of usual 2. So no, its not close to other weapons of its type, you just don't know how to reach its full potential.

The closest weapon to Bramma is Lenz with a whooping ammo pool of 6. Sure, it has innate mutation. But you have 3 ways of fixing Bramma's ammo economy. Aura, companion, or Exilus slot. Therefore it is completely in line with other weapons. You are grasping at straws.

You forgot to compare their radius. Acceltra deals 50% of its AoE damage at 4m, but Acceltra's AoE damage is only 62% of damage, so really you are dealing 31% of damage at 4m. Bramma deals 55% of its AoE damage at 4.15m - since 81.7% of total damage applies to AoE, it means Bramma is dealing 45% of its damage at 4.15m. You math is wrong because you are comparing apple to an orange. Bramma deals more of its dps at same/similar distance as Acceltra's max radius.

I'm not pretending. But you got numerous options to deal with this downside to the point where it doesn't matter. Since it doesn't matter, it's pointless to bring it up. Simple as that.

I never stated that. You are either projecting your own intellectual ramblings or are being disingenuous yet again. 

New "Ultra Hard" modes with level 120-140 enemies won't change a thing since DE nerfed enemies across the board. A Bramma build one or two shots groups of Corrupted Heavy Gunners level 170 btw, most enemies are much weaker than CHGs.

I actually carry most teams I'm in. You are still grasping at the much earlier statement that, as I explained already, was made in response to new players getting carried. Do you have reading comprehension problems? Honest question. If not then you are misrepresenting what I said, setting yet another strawman. Again.

Anyway please tell me, what would you add to the game to do your part in "advocating for challenge"? Because I hate to break this to you, but to make Warframe challenging, we would have to massively nerf (or rather, rework) player power, including braindead frames like Mesa/Saryn/Limbo, or weapons like Bramma. You cannot keep increasing player power by adding weapons like the Bramma and ask for "challenge" at the same time. Sure, you could buff enemies in response to players getting stronger and stronger, but that's an ass backwards approach because we as players will just use the same cheesy strats we've been always using.

Well duh, Sentients have damage gate. You cannot one shot them, that's why people picked fast firing weapons (or Mesa) coupled with Paracesis or Redeemer P (which shots are calculated as multihitting, better dealing with the damage gates). But I guess you will use this 1% of gameplay where Brama isn't the top pick to justify talking about 99% of all other cases instead.

Projecting your own feelings again.

Semantics. You are arguing my stylistic choice of describing a concept instead of arguing the concept behind it. I said "Weapons aren't content. Weapons are means to do content with and development should focus on giving us more things to do, not more things to do old things with". Do you agree with the bolded part as a concept, which was my whole point? Or prefer to argue the choice of words which is pointless and doesn't get anyone anywhere? Let me reiterate for you: adding weapons is just turning Warframe into a S#&$ty collectors game with no depth. We need more actual, new content to take the weapons we already have and do that content using them. Do you agree or disagree? Or do you think like leveling yet another new weapon on Hydron/ESO classifies as "great, magnificent, outstanding content"?

Already addressed it, what, 3 times now? Yeah... no, sorry. You are misrepresenting what I said, all the time.

I already gave you one, but you refuse to listen or acknowledge it. Here it is (again):

There won't be a singular "best" weapon after Bramma nerf because other weapons are more in line with each other, which promotes diversity if there are more weapons on the same power level. Imagine it like a scale, where currently there's 10 weapons in 70-80 power range, and Bramma that is alone as 94. Why do you think putting Bramma back into 70-80 power range would be disastrous? Why not have 11 weapons in 70-80 power range increasing diversity and choice, compared to subconsciously forcing everyone to pick 1 weapon?

Warframe can and should be balanced to have numerous "best weapons", not one that has clearly OP stats and usability. You are having fun using only Bramma now, but you are shooting yourself in the foot, because now every new weapon DE releases is going to be S#&$ in your opinion because it won't beat Bramma. You will be using the same weapon, same playstyle, and you will more likely get bored with the game earlier and quit. By defending objectively OP weapon you are doing yourself a disservice.

Can't wait for the next round of replies thrown against arguments I didn't even make, taking things out of context (where context invalidates your position), and repeating that I don't respond to your arguments when I already did to most important ones, and if I didn't respond to something minor and completely offtopic (like Nukor)... well you can't expect me to respond to every sentence one by one, can you?

You can try to claim you won some points here but you are constantly using fallacious arguments and misrepresent my position by adding your projections and assumptions despite things being explained to you before. In English, this means your arguments were simply incorrect.

You even need me to explain to you why Atomos and Kuva Nukor are in completely different ballpark, or how to properly compare dps of AoE weapons (since your comparison was atrociously bad, lol). Basic objective facts seem to elude you. Are you a Barruk main or something?

Stop arguing, or better,  stop trying to argue with this guy.

He is simply way to close minded and aren't adressing other's argument... in fact he is talking in a loop.

DE is going to look at the bramma popularty and nerf it if it is too popular or not if it is not. Nobody can change that.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, dota_Icarus said:

He is simply way to close minded and aren't adressing other's argument... in fact he is talking in a loop.

If you were honest, you'd admit he's just as much as talking in a loop. Doesn't appear to be the case. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, Bristoling said:

No I'm not. And I have to repeat myself yet again because you seem to be stuck in a loop.

Hate to break it to you chief. If you are repeating yourself, you are stuck in a loop not me. 

Simply put, You're best argument is "No." I've had to explain several different things to you, and you drop that line of argument cause you lost. 

2 hours ago, Bristoling said:

I skipped Nukor because I'm completely wrong. 

It's cute how you tried to slip arcanes in the argument. Leave the dps explanations to me. Cause you aren't honest enough to do them properly on your own.

 Base dps comparisons. (No mods. Element bonus is at 30%

       Kuva Nukor                                Atomos

     
 273.000 BURST DPS             256.360 BURST DPS

 216.711 SUSTAINED            208.665 SUSTAINED DPS

The Kuva Nukor is an endgame weapon compared to the Atomos. 
It does slightly more damage at base, (more or less depending on element bonus.) 

The status chance is the real difference, and is the entire reason the Nukor is so good. Chaining status to multiple enemies. The Nukor looks underwhelming at first. 19 burst dps higher, and 8 sustained dps higher. The Atomos even has larger ammo pool then the Kuva Nukor. Higher Crit chance too. 

These two weapons at base, are relatively in line with each other. Your entire argument is debunked. The Kuva Nukor isn't Op. Given that its a boss reward, and an endgame weapon, its damage isn't unreasonable. (Specially on enemies immune to status effects like the sentients.)

2 hours ago, Bristoling said:

you just don't know how to reach its full potential.

This is a logical fallacy of yours. It's also a pitiful attempt to attack me. Wrongo. If we judged/nerfed the potentials of all weapons depending on what they could do at max power, Mirage and Banshee would have nerfed every weapon into the ground. 

Secondly, adding arcanes into the mix is disingenuous. Arcanes are not part of the base weapon. When you talk about weapons being Overpowered, anything not part of that weapon isn't included. 

That's why we don't talk about Mirage with the Nukor. Mirage isn't included with it. She is separate from the weapon. Same goes with Banshee. 

2 hours ago, Bristoling said:

The closest weapon to Bramma is Lenz with a whooping ammo pool of 6. Sure, it has innate mutation. But you have 3 ways of fixing Bramma's ammo economy. Aura, companion, or Exilus slot. Therefore it is completely in line with other weapons. 

Wrong again. Before the Bramma existed, the Lenz was the equivalent of the Bramma. Compared to the other strongest bows, the Lenz was Aoe, had the highest crit chance, and did the most damage per shot. Hitting large groups of enemies is common for the lenz, and uncommon for other bows. 

Comparing the Lenz to the Diakyu is like comparing the Bramma to the Lenz. The Diakyu and the Bramma have nearly identical crit chance. The Diakyu also has 72 shots, compared to the Lenz 6 shots, or the Bramma's 15. The Lenz had the same downside of limited ammo, but came with the upside of more damage, and a built in method for making ammo. 

Not only does the Lenz do more raw damage then the diakyu, but with 50% chance crit, it has the same crit ability as the dread. The Lenz can orange crit with a pointstrike. It can red crit with vigilante mods. The Diakyu on the other hand, only can get a 87% chance to crit. While the Lenz can always crit at least once. Your argument is entirely bunk. The Lenz is an outdated weapon at this point, and pretending that the Lenz wasn't the bramma equivalent back in its day is just dishonest. After all, the Lenz was the first Bow to have a radius on its attacks. 

The Bramma would be defunct if it only had 6 shots. And as it currently stands, is perfectly balanced with its ammo constraints. I have personally run out of ammo for it multiple times.

3 hours ago, Bristoling said:

I actually carry most teams I'm in.

I don't remember asking. It's actually really cute how you try to stoke your own ego. No no, go on. You might want to cover yourself up though. Your insecurity is quite telling. 

3 hours ago, Bristoling said:

You math is wrong because you are comparing apple to an orange. Bramma deals more of its dps at same/similar distance as Acceltra's max radius.

Except that the Acceltra fires fully automatic, and in the same time it takes to fire a shot of the Bramma the Acceltra can cover a wider area. Acceltra fires 12 shots per second. The Bramma fires 1 shot with a .4 second charge time. The acceltra can also be modded to extend its blast radius. One of the ways to extend its blast radius doesn't even cost a mod slot. 

If you are doing low level content, the Acceltra kills quicker simply from not needing to charge, having a faster flight speed and having more then enough damage to kill the enemies. 

I posted this to counter the nonsense argument you posted here:

On 2020-05-10 at 5:42 AM, Bristoling said:

If your response is gonna be another "but muh fun though" because you like playing games where you are an invincible godmode frame that presses 1 to kill all enemies in 50m range, 

My point is; if you can't infer or reason it by yourself? You think the Bramma should be nerfed; pretending the bramma is the only weapon capable of mass killing enemies. 

Acceltra, Saryn, Banshee, Octavia, Mirage with a nukor, or literally any explosive weapon in the game, zarr, revenant, etc can all do the same. You have fallen into a trap where you think and falsely assume everyone is like you. 

This is because you don't have the mental capacity to see that only several dozen weapons were capable of this, several dozen warframes are capable of this. And you are wrong. Hilariously wrong. 

The Bramma is an endgame weapon. You can voice your opinion on kuva liches all you want. They were designed, and made to be endgame. That was their purpose. That's why they are the only boss in the game that you aren't likely to kill in one mission. That's why you have to FARM PARTS AND MATERIALS TO KILL THEM. 

Your logic is so atrociously bad, and by the LOTUS it shows. #1 The Kuva bramma isn't a guaranteed drop. #2 you have to farm parazon mods to kill the kuva lich. #3 the kuva lich is the only boss in the game that gets stronger and stronger every encounter. #4 You think the existence of the Bramma ruins all the fun in every other weapon. 

#4 might ruin the fun for you. But you aren't me, and you aren't everyone else. I have my moods. Sometimes I just want to use a corrinth. Or sometimes I want to snipe things with my beloved Vectis. 

The Bramma neither makes other weapons less or more enjoyable. I derive my fun from warframe in finding a weapon I love, building it to max potential and seeing how far I can push it. 

When the day comes that another weapon beats the Bramma? You will never see me call for a nerf. Because I don't complain about my strength being too great, I complain about the enemies strength not being enough. 

Orb Mothers, Eidolons, and high level sentients make the Bramma balanced. You lost the argument to anyone who ran out of ammo killing sentients in scarlet spear. 

3 hours ago, Bristoling said:

New "Ultra Hard" modes with level 120-140 enemies won't change a thing since DE nerfed enemies across the board. A Bramma build one or two shots groups of Corrupted Heavy Gunners level 170 btw, most enemies are much weaker than CHGs.

Semantics. You are arguing my stylistic choice of describing a concept instead of arguing the concept behind it. I said "Weapons aren't content.

Wrong and Wrong. How about you go play Ultra Hard modes before you say anything. 

Also, I'm arguing that you are entirely wrong. Kuva weapons are content. Weapons and especially new weapons never in the game before are content. You are falsely pretending they aren't. 

Kuva Liches are content. They were a new encounter. A new encounter that needed new ways to kill them. The Parazon was a new weapon with mods added specifically to kill them. 

The Kuva weapons are content. They are rewards for beating Kuva Liches. 

Don't bother replying until you know the definition of content. Boss rewards, as well as the boss encounter themselves are the definition of content. 

[Xaero]

On 2020-05-10 at 2:57 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

That's why new stronger weapons come out. The reason kuva liches were added, were to give players new and stronger weapons. That's exactly the reason why "Prime Access" is a thing. To give players stronger warframes and weapons. Prime warframes completely invalidate previously added weapons and gear. 

Frost Prime completely invalidates Frost. That's the entire point. Umbra Excalibur, completely invalidates Excalibur.

Wait, it doesn't work like that. No one would complain if Kuva Bramma invalidated regular Bramma. Titania Prime, the latest prime warframe, doesn't invalidate all the other warframes. If she did, she would've been nerfed.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 hours ago, Xaero said:

Wait, it doesn't work like that. No one would complain if Kuva Bramma invalidated regular Bramma. Titania Prime, the latest prime warframe, doesn't invalidate all the other warframes. If she did, she would've been nerfed.

Except that it does work like that. Titania Prime invalidates Titania. 99% of Prime Weapons invalidate their previous version. Umbra Ecalibur invalidates Excalibur. (Umbra Excalibur has the same stats as Excalibur Prime. You might as well count him as Excalibur Prime for all non founders.) 

Or are we just pretending that weapons like the Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Tigris Prime, Rubico and Vectis Prime weren't meta? The Boltor Prime when it first was released was the most used weapon in an alliance of 2000+ people during the clan wars. It pretty thoroughly invalidated every other rifle in the game other then the Soma which was a heavily contested debate. (Status rifle vs crit rifle.) 

Primed mods invalidate their non prime versions. Can't tell you the last time I used regular flow, regular continuity. I keep a few of my non primed warframes just out of nostalgia. Can't tell you the last time I used regular Trinity, Mirage, or Nova. Maybe you misunderstood me. Several items in the past of Prime Access have invalidated all other weapons. No warframe invalidates all other warframes, but all prime warframes invalidate all non prime warframes. (Example Rhino Prime. Rhino's armor skin is based off armor. Since Rhino Prime has more armor, not only does he have better stats, but his Iron Skin is better by default. Rhino Prime very much does invalidate Rhino in every way.) 

I wonder what a regular Bramma would look like stat wise. Maybe something in between the Lenz and the kuva b. 

[Xaero]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except that it does work like that. Titania Prime invalidates Titania. 99% of Prime Weapons invalidate their previous version. Umbra Ecalibur invalidates Excalibur.

And Kuva Bramma invalidates..?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

13 hours ago, Xaero said:

And Kuva Bramma invalidates..?

Every Bow in the game. 

It's basically the Lenz Prime, (IF such a thing were to exist.) 

And quite a few people are upset with that for no reason. I can't wrap my head around it, but they really don't like there being an endgame bow. Endgame shotguns, assault rifles, and secondary weapons are fine. 

But an endgame bow? Nerf it! Apparently.

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Every Bow in the game. 

More than just every bow. Anyways, don't you see the difference? A prime warframe "invalidates" (it can't even be called that since the difference in stats is not big, and abilities are the same) only one warframe: its own regular version. So your comparison is flawed.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

7 hours ago, Xaero said:

More than just every bow. 

Just like how the Tigris Prime invalidated every gun for the most part too then? How about when the Synoid Gammacor came out, and it invalidated everything ever, when it replenished 25% of a warframe's max energy? You mean just like when the Tonkor and Zarr came out? This isn't the first time a weapon has been released that overshadows other weapons. 

It's a fundamental part of progression. The game adds harder content, then adds stronger rewards for completing said content. 

Try  judging weapons by their respective categories. The Bramma might have great aoe damage, but its not an eidolon killer, nor can it crank out status procs like shotguns. 

The Bramma being the new AoE crowd killer that only makes killing normal fodder enemies faster is only a plus in my book. I'm quite pleased with faster farms, while other content remains the same. Bramma isn't something I'd use in the open world maps. Not effective against certain bosses. And quite a few people put a lot of resources in their bramma to make it good. (Almost like DE specifically made the Kuva weapons to be powerful. Perhaps that is why they let you infuse Kuva Weapons together and make even stronger weapons... Hmm...)

7 hours ago, Xaero said:

 Anyways, don't you see the difference? A prime warframe "invalidates" (it can't even be called that since the difference in stats is not big, and abilities are the same) only one warframe: its own regular version. So your comparison is flawed.

There is no difference. Only in your mind. This is for two reasons. #1 Prime Warframes stats actually make a big difference. This is because mods scales off of percentages. The higher the difference between base stats between normal warframes and primes, the more of a difference it makes. #2 Many Prime Warframes have powers that scale off their base stats. #3 Prime Warframes are released at the same time as Prime Weapons. Such weapons as the Tigris Prime, Boltor Prime, and others have had a history of being the best weapons. 

Examples: Rhino's Armor Skin. Frost Prime's Snowglobe. Valkyr's Warcry. Chroma Prime's Vex Armor, or in a special case Umbra Excalibur's Radial Howl being a better radial blind for sentient enemies. Then there is the fact that most prime warframes have larger health pools, more armor or more shields. 

That means that using Prime mods, (The mods that invalidate normal mods) make an even greater impact. The difference between a normal loki or volt with a flow and a loki prime with primed flow is enormous. A normal Loki with flow has 450 energy. A Loki Prime with primed flow has 743 energy. That's more then a 50% increase. 

The biggest difference is that the word "Prime" isn't attached to the Bramma's name.

Prime weapons, Prime Warframes, Prime Mods, (Including Umbra mods. Sacrificial Steel is a better version of True Steel) are all in the same category. They invalidate their counterparts that can't compete. 

Sorta like how the Imperator Vandal invalidates the Imperator. Or how the Kuva Nukor invalidates the Nukor. Everything in warframe gets stronger over time, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

[Uthael]

I don't mind Bramma being OP. It ain't better than my Rubico in Disruptions (with 3x+ combo). My main problem is that Bramma invalidates snipers by spamming explosions all over the room my target is in (completely hiding my target), shaking my screen and lowering FPS for no purpose at all. I hate playing with Bramma users!

Anyone using melee might knock down or put lifted status on enemies. That also prevents me from doing headshots. But doing that usually increases their damage, so it's tolerable. And I still see my target and I'm able to bodyshot it.

[Tiltskillet]

14 hours ago, Uthael said:

I don't mind Bramma being OP. It ain't better than my Rubico in Disruptions (with 3x+ combo). My main problem is that Bramma invalidates snipers by spamming explosions all over the room my target is in (completely hiding my target), shaking my screen and lowering FPS for no purpose at all. I hate playing with Bramma users!

Anyone using melee might knock down or put lifted status on enemies. That also prevents me from doing headshots. But doing that usually increases their damage, so it's tolerable. And I still see my target and I'm able to bodyshot it.

Yeah, if the visual and audio effects were toned down significantly for other players, I could fairly blissfully ignore the dang thing.  I do think it's OP, but mostly it's an especially popular, egregious, and  l o u d sign of bigger problems:  enemies are numerous but weak (mostly), so AoE is strong (mostly), so non-AoE is pointless (mostly).  Fear the next endgame launcher DE makes, if they feel like they need to top the current Bramma.

Anyway, that aside, proper controls for calibrating the display of other players' effects on my screen would help a lot. 

[Xaero]

21 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Just like how the Tigris Prime invalidated every gun for the most part too then? How about when the Synoid Gammacor came out, and it invalidated everything ever, when it replenished 25% of a warframe's max energy? You mean just like when the Tonkor and Zarr came out? This isn't the first time a weapon has been released that overshadows other weapons

Isn't Tigris Prime a close-range weapon? And I don't remember Zarr being too powerful and popular.

As for Synoid Gammacor and Tonkor, they indeed invalidated many stuff and received their nerfs.

21 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

There is no difference. Only in your mind.

Is it really so difficult to understand? Prime warframes are better versions of their regular counterparts. A single prime warframe invalidates a single regular warframe that is the exact same warframe with worse stats and that's it.

No one complains that Titania Prime is better than Titania. But if Titania Prime (or any other warframe, be it old or new) suddenly receives an impenetrable defensive sphere as her first ability, non-LoS lockdown crowd control as her second, an extremely powerful nuking ability as her third and invincibility as her ultimate, she will invalidate almost every other warframe. As a result, there will be tons of complaints from players and DE will nerf her.

Do you still not see the difference? If you don't, I don't know any other way to explain it to you and just give up trying.

[Aadi880]

Been using the Bramma and its disgustingly strong. fk, there is no aspect that I can think of that it has a downfall in. Strong single target damage, strong AOE damage, Its ammo is not even a down fall because 15 ammo is more than enough to kill enough enemies to drop sniper ammo. Also, carrier exists.

I suggest the following changes.

• Charge time increased by an additional 1 second.
• Increase reload time by an additional 0.5 seconds.
• Bomblets cannot proc status.
• Main projectile has a 1 second delay in which it will explode. Will stick to targets.
• Ammo capacity reduced to 10.
• Reduce base damage by 10%

 

[krc473]

15 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Been using the Bramma and its disgustingly strong

I didn’t think this when I used it. Sure, it was stronger than the non-AoE bows, but it could be out-damaged by other stuff quite easily. It’s also meant to be a somewhat special weapon - that’s the point in Lich weapon’s right? I would say that you are proposing too much of a nerf. It really isn’t that overpowered. I don’t think it actually even needs a nerf.

• Go find a Saryn and Trinity, let them clear rooms. Try and use the Bramma to beat the Saryn’s kills. It will be pretty hard as it has a wind up time and fairly low AoE range. You can replace the Saryn with any DPS frame.

[(PSN)Laughing_Beta]

1 hour ago, Aadi880 said:

Been using the Bramma and its disgustingly strong. fk, there is no aspect that I can think of that it has a downfall in. Strong single target damage, strong AOE damage, Its ammo is not even a down fall because 15 ammo is more than enough to kill enough enemies to drop sniper ammo. Also, carrier exists.

The bramma is like pre-shotgun nerf tigris. was a powerful weapon held back by utility. you have it's daikyu fire mechanic needing you to full charge it to shoot. It has pretty big radial range which sounds fun but easily throws you mean you always need to give space unless you run nezha, atla, rhino, or any frame with sure footed. you also have it's small ammo witch use bow ammo (i use mutation mods to bypass this or carrier.) if you have a weapon that has clunkiness like that I hope to God its good as if it would have all that flaws as a weapon yet to can't even pump out good dps then why even bother using it?

[Berzerkules]

Laughs in Khora

[Daziri]

I mean what's up with asking for nerfs...

I still don't understand why Forums have become such a nerf-this-nerf-that place.

Bramma is fine.

and this is coming from some1 who has never used it.