Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion

[SpringRocker]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

How often do you use a weapon unmoded? There are plenty of weapons that have very good CC but low base dmg but once moded become very powerful weapons in their own right, Prisma Grakata being a prime example and no mods dont make all weapons better to the same extent...

 

25 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Also, incase I need to spell it out: the unmodded metric is important because it show's a weapons base. It's common knowledge that basically all mods make a weapon better to the same extent that's based on the weapon and shouldn't be included when comparing them (unless it's something exclusive).

Read

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

9 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

 

Read

You can keep quoting yourself but it is you who needs to read as your point was addressed already because it simply isn't true

"It's common knowledge that basically all mods make a weapon better to the same extent that's based on the weapon"

so a fully moded twin rogga with high base dmg but only 10% CC and 6.6% status along with a noticable dmg fall-off will benefit the same extent to an Aksomati prime (which has low base dmg but high CC potential) no it doesnt so your argument is clearly flawed

[SpringRocker]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

You can keep quoting yourself but it is you who needs to read as your point was addressed already because it simply isn't true

"It's common knowledge that basically all mods make a weapon better to the same extent that's based on the weapon"

so a fully moded twin rogga with high base dmg but only 10% CC and 6.6% status along with a noticable dmg fall-off will benefit the same extent to an Aksomati prime (which has low base dmg but high CC potential) no it doesnt so your argument is clearly flawed

Here's a thought, then do the math yourself if you think it makes a difference.

Yes, cc is a bit different between weapons and scales differently. It doesn't make enough of a difference in this case.

Do the math yourself. I wont sit here and crunch all the numbers for you, especially when a lot of what you were specifically asking was already posted in the thread.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

13 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Here's a thought, then do the math yourself if you think it makes a difference.

Yes, cc is a bit different between weapons and scales differently. It doesn't make enough of a difference in this case.

Do the math yourself. I wont sit here and crunch all the numbers for you, especially when a lot of what you were specifically asking was already posted in the thread.

It makes a massive difference what are you talking about? The aksomati is a prime example of a weapon who'd DPS goes through the roof when fully moded. Twin Rogga while initially strong is now where near as improved and DPS wise pails in comparison.

How about you actually test these weapons before telling me to do the maths...

The very premise of your thread about the Bramma being the most powerful weapon had already been proved wrong by someone mentioning a whole subset of weapons, namely melee.

I have given you very clear examples in many of my responses without you bothering to address them properly and your only response seems to be to re-read you're quotes I have already addressed or 'do the math' 

[SpringRocker]

1 minute ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

It makes a massive difference what are you talking about? The aksomati is a prime example of a weapon who'd DPS goes through the roof when fully moded. Twin Rogga while initially strong is now where near as improved and DPS wise pails in comparison.

How about you actually test these weapons before telling me to do the maths...

The very premise of your thread about the Bramma being the most powerful weapon had already been proved wrong by someone mentioning a whole subset of weapons, namely melee.

I have given you very clear examples in many of my responses without you bothering to address them properly and your only response seems to be to re-read you're quotes I have already addressed or 'do the math' 

It was already talked about in this thread. Go back and read if you want to know what was talked about.

Better yet, do the math yourself and post. Sticking fingers in your ear shouting "Nu-uh!" doesn't mean anything, if you're going to argue then make an argument (or actually go back and actually read the thread to see what was already said).

Ffs guy, I did the math myself a while ago. If you think I'm wrong then make an actual argument.

 

Also seriously? Someone else made a point, I see where I was wrong (this is how arguments work) and that was taken in. Now you're trying to belittle be because I specify non-melee because it's different from what I originally said? You need to learn how arguments work... That and learn how to read.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

6 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

It was already talked about in this thread. Go back and read if you want to know what was talked about.

Better yet, do the math yourself and post. Sticking fingers in your ear shouting "Nu-uh!" doesn't mean anything, if you're going to argue then make an argument (or actually go back and actually read the thread to see what was already said).

Ffs guy, I did the math myself a while ago. If you think I'm wrong then make an actual argument.

 

Also seriously? Someone else made a point, I see where I was wrong (this is how arguments work) and that was taken in. Now you're trying to belittle be because I specify non-melee because it's different from what I originally said? You need to learn how arguments work... That and learn how to read.

I gave you examples, putting your fingers in your ears and refusing to acknowledge is your problem. You said mods effect weapons in the same way hence they should not be included which is completely false, had you even bothered to try out this theory with say the weapons I mentioned you would know this to be false but you didnt, and now you're like a parrot saying the same thing telling me to read your posts again and do the math because you simply dont have an answer.

And yes I go back to the melee point because your whole argument and the whole premise of this thread (in case you forgot) was that Bramma was the most powerful by far and that no other weapon can compete so it should be nerfed. You were shortly corrected by someone mentioning melee weapons, they didnt say a melee weapon, they mentioned melee weapons in general, how many weapons are we talking about now which can compete and outperform the Bramma?

You then partially acknowledged that melee weapons were in fact stronger but still insist on arguing ur case about the Bramma when the very notion of you're thread is wrong. That's not acknowledging like you seem to think it is...

No doubt you will try to respond with the usual 'read my post l2argue' nonsense because you clearly dont have an answer to my points and you are fully aware of this

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

So far all I'm still seeing is three thousand kills via Saryn, Volt and Mirage in Onslaught, while Ember is still killing everything with her artillery shells from the sky in exterminates...and the Bramma is what now..getting maybe 500 kills if they are lucky and they can get ahead of them....

I mean the Bramma is at least somewhat difficult to get with the grind of the murmur farm and killing a Lich for it while really the only way to enjoy it in all its power is having a maxed out Prime Sure Footed that took so many log-in days to acquire ...so sure destroy one of the only reasons to even subject yourself to a system DE spent what, two years on...

Look it will be nerfed eventually as DE adds in new weapons that they want you to forma' so can't have that in the way...NERF Hammer deployed regardless of these weapon forum posts. Eventually it will be forced  into the obscure usage like the Penta and Zarr to make room for the next new thing...and that's the funny part...it will be replaced by a completely different headache for everyone who screams nerf every meta weapon cycle for the last seven years repeat and repeat and repeat ad nausea....while the remaining or re-worked meta press four frames have not even the slightest non powered competition what so-ever. 

 

 

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

The easiest fix for the Bramma in my opinion is to extend the reload time (The time in between firing an arrow and notching another one).

With a fix like this, the power of the Bramma stays the same, but similar to the Lenz's pullback speed, the time it takes to pull out another arrow will punish you for missing a shot.

The fix isn't intended to murder the Kuva Bramma like how DE murdered the Tonkor & Simulor, but it's supposed to increase the amount of skill needed to use the weapon successfully.

[5p33dy_01]

52 minutes ago, (XB1)HollowCube987 said:

The easiest fix for the Bramma in my opinion is to extend the reload time (The time in between firing an arrow and notching another one).

With a fix like this, the power of the Bramma stays the same, but similar to the Lenz's pullback speed, the time it takes to pull out another arrow will punish you for missing a shot.

The fix isn't intended to murder the Kuva Bramma like how DE murdered the Tonkor & Simulor, but it's supposed to increase the amount of skill needed to use the weapon successfully.

maybe you didnt read my post

"no matter what you say about it being strong, almost any nerf will just result in limited frames making use of it.
Saryn can make most weapons kill level 130 heavy gunners without a single mod equiped on the weapon.
frames will just counter pretty much any aspect of the nerf. unless they remove the aoe aspect, which will just move everyone back to which ever aoe weapon they were using."

anything relating to fire rate or reload Gauss will counter (Harrow or Volt to some extent)
anything relating to damage Saryn (Venom Dose), Chroma, Harrow or Mirage will counter.

basically, it will just go from ANY frame using it, to everyone only using certain frames because of it.

the ONLY real nerf can be the radius of the explosion, but like it said, everyone will just go back the which ever is next biggest radius (hello Kuva Tonkor or Lenz party)
alternatively, they could literally drill it into the ground by changing everything, dmg, reload, charge and radius, but then nobody will even touch it, then why make content nobody will use?

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

15 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

basically, it will just go from ANY frame using it, to everyone only using certain frames because of it.

The Bramma seems like a Lose-Lose situation in every possible way.

[5p33dy_01]

28 minutes ago, (XB1)HollowCube987 said:

The Bramma seems like a Lose-Lose situation in every possible way.

using your exact fix, will not make much of a difference, take the tonkor for example, it has a reload of 1.7sec with 1 mag but people are still using that and Gauss can carpet bomb with it.

so unless they make the reload and charge around maybe 3-4sec, that will make an impact, but with fire rate arcane and reload speed from Gauss, it will negate that nerf. what Gauss lacks in damage boosting, makes up for in speed, which could still be considered damage boost.

Gauss is pretty much a super frame when it comes to weaponry. not to mention immune to new self-damage effects.

[5p33dy_01]

On 2020-03-01 at 10:32 PM, SpringRocker said:

Now that the only downside of the weapon has been removed and is the weapon that deal the most damage to single target and multiple in an area, It needs to be nerfed.

Really, it deals more damage than anything else in the game... With self-damage gone (why?) it's the go to weapon for both single damage and AOE.

 

Before someone says "self damage wasn't really removed, you rag-doll yourself" it only encourages point blank spam. It you can shot a bomb at point blank and press a button to recover, it basically ignores any draw back the weapon had to begin with (not to mention that if the stagger is considered a "stagger" or "status" you can basically negate that via frames/mods).

yes they must nerf bramma and every other AOE weapon... im getting tired of people running away from me in survival missions because they have nothing to kill every time i pull out my ZAW.

who needs the low 8 meter radius on bramma when you can have 12 meter pull on your ZAW (GET OVER HERE!!!... let me bash your head in) 
attack speed over 4.5 and crits go over 400% on 12 combo (sentinel and frame gladiator mods).

if they need a little more to die, i have a nice nukor with 3 statuses and 110% status chance, with a chain to other enemies, so everything just dies.

check this bad boy.... melts level 130 heavy gunners with no stress...

[Tiltskillet]

59 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

"no matter what you say about it being strong, almost any nerf will just result in limited frames making use of it.
Saryn can make most weapons kill level 130 heavy gunners without a single mod equiped on the weapon.
frames will just counter pretty much any aspect of the nerf. unless they remove the aoe aspect, which will just move everyone back to which ever aoe weapon they were using."

anything relating to fire rate or reload Gauss will counter (Harrow or Volt to some extent)
anything relating to damage Saryn (Venom Dose), Chroma, Harrow or Mirage will counter.

basically, it will just go from ANY frame using it, to everyone only using certain frames because of it.

Yes, frames with weapon enhancement abilities are good at enhancing weapons, and nerfing the Bramma won't change that.  Nor should it.  And guess what?  Those frames are also quite good at making mediocre weapons awesome.  ^{(Banshee Sonicor represent! 😜 )}

The point is not to nerf the Bramma so hard  that nobody can use it effectively.   That would be a beyond crappy outcome.  Unfortunately it's also easy to imagine DE going too far that direction at some point.  Partly in reaction to it's obvious strengths.  But even more so as an overreaction to how much it's used and how often it's complained about. 

[5p33dy_01]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yes, frames with weapon enhancement abilities are good at enhancing weapons, and nerfing the Bramma won't change that.  Nor should it.  And guess what?  Those frames are also quite good at making mediocre weapons awesome.  ^{(Banshee Sonicor represent! 😜 )}

The point is not to nerf the Bramma so hard  that nobody can use it effectively.   That would be a beyond crappy outcome.  Unfortunately it's also easy to imagine DE going too far that direction at some point.  Partly in reaction to it's obvious strengths.  But even more so as an overreaction to how much it's used and how often it's complained about. 

there is 2 things that are the reasons people are using it, the damage and the AOE, reduce damage and keep AOE, damage frames will use it (Mirage in every mission), take AOE away and everyone uses tonkor, lenz, ignis, what ever they were using before bramma came.

so like i said, the 1 and only thing that will make the impact great enough to reduce the usage is AOE. it has 8 freaking meters (not including the bomlets), tonkor has 7 and lenz has 7.2...

now that people have felt the power of real AOE, they will be looking for their next fix if that gets reduced.

[GPrime96]

4 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

So like i said, the 1 and only thing that will make the impact great enough to reduce the usage is AOE. it has 8 freaking meters (not including the bomlets), tonkor has 7 and lenz has 7.2...

While it still got a 90% radial damage falloff but the enemies are so weak currently, it’s hard to tell the difference. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2020-03-01 at 4:21 PM, SpringRocker said:

It deals more damage than everything else in the game,

Wrong. 

While the Bramma is a good weapon, it is laughably bad against certain enemies. I remember taking it and any enemy immune to explosion damage makes it perform notably bad. 

Lephantis for example, I remember helping a player farm nekros. I swapped off my Bramma for a corrinth. I suspect other enemies like lephantis to encourage players to use something else. 

The bramma is a high level weapon. (mr 13 mind you). So it's allowed to be powerful, but your statement isn't even correct in the first place. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2020-04-27 at 7:42 AM, (XB1)HollowCube987 said:

Testing several times on 8 level 125 Corrupted Bombards, my 7 forma Orokin Catalyst Lenz with an unlocked Exilus slot and God rolled riven killed them all in a rounded average of 10 shots. With the same quantity and level of foes, my 0 forma Orokin Catalyst Bramma with innate 58% toxin damage, Hunter munitions, and basic crit & damage mods killed them with a rounded average of 4.

Lenz:

 Mastery: 8 or 160,000 Mastery Rank Exp. (about 27 Warframes/54 weapons worth of Mastery Rank Exp.

Bramma:

Mastery:15 or 562,500 Mastery Rank Exp.  (about 93 warframes/186 weapons worth of Mastery Rank Exp.

The Bramma base line takes 3.5x the Mastery Rank Exp to unlock. The Lenz is a bow that can be acquired much earlier in the game, much more easily. 

The Bramma, needs to be worth the Kuva Lich Grind, The Mastery Rank investment, and completing all the quests to unlock it to be obtainable. 

The Lenz requires far less, and is obtainable at most clan dojos as a blueprint. Anyone in a clan worth anything has access to its blueprint. The Bramma isn't something that clans can provide to the entire playerbase.

The Bramma can not be bought with plat, nor can it be built. It must be earned. It is deserving of its power. It's a powerful weapon, not like the common lenz.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2020-05-02 at 2:19 AM, (NSW)Matt-S said:

"Don't use it" is a little bit of a poor argument. The point of having an arsenal with so many weapons is for the sake of variety, and also so there's many tools for the job. It's satisfying collecting everything so you can use many weapons as appropriate, but when there's one weapon that deletes the entire arsenal, it feels bad to use other weapons because you know that you will be grinding faster and more effectively by using this one thing for everything, which gets boring fast.

Everything you said was an ever poorer argument. 

Firstly, Bramma doesn't invalidate every other weapon. It's great for most things absolutely. Lephantis for example is NOT one of them. Bosses with weakpoints largely immune to explosion damage falls into that category. It's a Mastery Rank 15 locked weapon. For all practical purposes, its the current endgame weapon. No other weapon has a higher MR requirement (That I know of. ) Nor can the weapon be purchased from the market. Somebody has to kill a lich for it, otherwise its entirely earned. No Prime Access will get it, and the store does not offer it.

Secondly, Your comment about Grind is the lousiest argument I have ever heard. 

You know what is the least amount of fun? A slow and tedious grind. Or having another weapon completely ruined so badly that it will never see real use ever again. (Tonkor, Synoid Simulor/Gammacor, Etc.) 

So what are the alternatives to your argument? You can speed up the farm with the bramma, OR MAKE THE CHOICE NOT TO USE IT. Nerfing the bramma makes the decision for the entire player base to use something else for the most effective farm. 

Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to farm with it. You can farm slightly slower without the Bramma just fine. Or are you really complaining that other weapons can't farm as fast? Nerfing the Bramma only slows the farm down and a new weapon of choice is picked for efficiency. 

So your problem of " it feels bad to use other weapons because you know that you will be grinding faster and more effectively by using this one thing for everything, which gets boring fast." 
remains intact, but with a different weapon. 

Come back when you have better logic for nerfing a late game weapon that should be powerful. 

[ShortCat]

Whether you like it or not, Kuva Dramma will be nerfed. It eclipses 99% of the Arsenal and tops user charts.

[Berzerkules]

Can we nerf all melee while we're at it? I consistently out damage and kill people using Bramma. 

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The Bramma can not be bought with plat, nor can it be built. It must be earned. It is deserving of its power. It's a powerful weapon, not like the common lenz.

 

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

It's a Mastery Rank 15 locked weapon. For all practical purposes, its the current endgame weapon. No other weapon has a higher MR requirement (That I know of. ) Nor can the weapon be purchased from the market. Somebody has to kill a lich for it, otherwise its entirely earned. No Prime Access will get it, and the store does not offer it.

Both of you have really good points. I didn't think of it like that. With the high mastery rank and how much effort is put into acquisition, it makes sense that players who finally get one should be rewarded. My concern was that it was too powerful before, but I forgot about the grind for leveling up MR, and for Finding & Killing a Kuva Lich.

I didn't make a point with all the correct information in mind, and I am sorry about that.

[(NSW)Matt-S]

Bramma is not mastery locked. You can use it at any Mastery Rank.

Internally it has a requirement, but obtaining the weapon has no barrier, other than fighting a Lich.

Anyway Bramma is stupid, it should probably be nerfed. That is all.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

Bramma is not mastery locked. You can use it at any Mastery Rank.

Internally it has a requirement, but obtaining the weapon has no barrier, other than fighting a Lich.

Anyway Bramma is stupid, it should probably be nerfed. That is all.

Wrong. It is locked behind MR 15. 

[(NSW)Matt-S]

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Wrong. It is locked behind MR 15. 

Again, it is not mastery locked.

The weapon has an internal mastery rank requirement of 15, but when you vanquish your Lich, you can claim the weapon at any Mastery Rank. This applies to all Kuva weapons.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

12 hours ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

Again, it is not mastery locked.

The weapon has an internal mastery rank requirement of 15, but when you vanquish your Lich, you can claim the weapon at any Mastery Rank. This applies to all Kuva weapons.

Then try to claim a kuva weapon at mastery rank 4. 

Good luck. You won't even have kuva lich unlocked and able to fight at that level. Most players at that level won't even be able to vanquish a lich on their own. 

But go on. Go find a mastery rank 4 player with a kuva weapon. I'll wait.