Stronger Weapons or Harder Enemies

[zurefox]

I have a question tenno, what do you really want? , what is your desire?
You need to understand one thing, you CAN'T have both, why?

Easy, because if we get stronger weapons our enemies will be weak against  us, they will be easy to kill, but if they become stronger we will feel our weapons weak, what i want to say is..
this topic is because 2 things, 50%  want the old armor back  and stronger enemies and the other 50% wants strongers weapons to kill everything.

We can't have both sides,they are opposites, so now, tell me, what do you want, but remember, you can only choose one. Choose wisely.

[8faiNt]

ah yes... how easy do we want this game to be again? armor nerf wasnt enough?

[(XBOX)Calliber]

Harder Enemies, I want to actually be worried about my frame going down. EDIT: Without self-nerfing my build that is.

Edited June 26, 2020 by (XB1)Calliber

[taiiat]

29 minutes ago, zurefox said:

you CAN'T have both

that's never been true in the history of the entire Games Industry, so parroting it for the 23598625968th time won't make it any more right.

unless you reach a point of straight up (instead of pseudo) farming simulators where you radiate infinity Damage (so basically Combat forms of clicker games), or something of that sort, having both is always still possible.

[KochDerFrettchen]

Enemies don't have to be difficult via higher numbers. In fact, that is explicitly known as artificial difficulty. Most enemies in the game get splattered against the wall whether they have 0 armor or thousands of it, whether it takes one hit or a few, and they do little about it to resist us. Enemies that do something about it are the difficult ones. 🙂

[zurefox]

hace 12 minutos, KochDerFrettchen dijo:

Enemies don't have to be difficult via higher numbers. In fact, that is explicitly known as artificial difficulty. Most enemies in the game get splattered against the wall whether they have 0 armor or thousands of it, whether it takes one hit or a few, and they do little about it to resist us. Enemies that do something about it are the difficult ones. 🙂

Like nox or nullifier? 
 

 

hace 2 horas, taiiat dijo:

that's never been true in the history of the entire Games Industry, so parroting it for the 23598625968th time won't make it any more right.

unless you reach a point of straight up (instead of pseudo) farming simulators where you radiate infinity Damage (so basically Combat forms of clicker games), or something of that sort, having both is always still possible.

I think i understand what are you trying to say, but almost all the time I read " we want lvl +1000 enemies" and that is silly, i think the right way is more enemies with new "gimmicks"  just like this guy

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by zurefox

[kevoisvevo]

my wow mindset is telling me give enemies more more and MOAR damage. i want each and every eximus unit to get the damage scaling of lvl 150 battalysts muahahahaha

[Scar.brother.help.me]

1 hour ago, zurefox said:

Like nox or nullifier? 

Nox is a perfect enemy - tough, dangerous, hard to kill and has a weak spot.

Nullifier - a weak cancer enemy that has a stupid ability to strip our buffs and waste our time on rebuffing. I'd prefer to have him as strong and deadly as bursas with powerful railguns but just not be able to completely remove most buffs (so that it would be ok to engage them at melee). The rest of bubble abilities are fine (immune to tenno powers, silence while inside the bubble, buffs turned off while inside, but work on when you exit, etc). The worst is when you play invis heroes or buff dependant tank like Rhino. Nullifier can strip you of your protection even through wall or while jumping around/spawning nearby and you are dead at high levels in a blink of an eye. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me

[Scar.brother.help.me]

6 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

3 hours ago, zurefox said:

I have a question tenno, what do you really want? , what is your desire?
You need to understand one thing, you CAN'T have both, why?

Easy, because if we get stronger weapons our enemies will be weak against  us, they will be easy to kill, but if they become stronger we will feel our weapons weak, what i want to say is..
this topic is because 2 things, 50%  want the old armor back  and stronger enemies and the other 50% wants strongers weapons to kill everything.

We can't have both sides,they are opposites, so now, tell me, what do you want, but remember, you can only choose one. Choose wisely.

Yes we can have both, just as two things can be true at the same time. It's that type of logic that has created this conversation?

The longer an enemy is on screen time the more the unit should be fed updates of survivability? 

Maybe instead of i/o invincibility...have elements give units buffs or deficiencies. I.e. hitting this enemy with radiation/gas/ cold/ blast bulids its power bar when reached gives off an effect! That going on with multiple enemies alone would change the combat dynamics right now to a better fuller experience...but who's thinking beyond damage mitigation, invincibility and powers just don't work.

The whole power interplay needs to be broken down, leveled out and then scaled back up to manageable logic.

There seems to be no true origin point for damage in general. 

What is a kick from a warframe worth?

Why is there no slam or fall damage. I can fall off a cliff on my back and receive the same amount of being swept off my feet?

"When logics aren't managed and maintained you can lose what possibly could be called a scale of reference"!

If one thing bungie has done and that's master fps gunplay. Having that correct audio and rumble report when u pulling a trigger.  That is what makes a good shooter. If one shot makes me FEEL warm and fuzzy imagine what a full clip is going to do?

As varied as the weapons are making them sound, feel and ordinance look the same should be a sin!

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, zurefox said:

I think i understand what are you trying to say, but almost all the time I read " we want lvl +1000 enemies" and that is silly

i think the right way is more enemies with new "gimmicks"  just like this guy

who even actually asks for that. heh.

the Aerolyst is pretty alright, sure. quite a few more interesting Enemies that are more difficult by doing more and such already exist in the game across the Factions, yes. as ever, not having 90-95% of all the Enemies in the game be "dude with a Gun" would make things harder and more interesting, and it's still compatible with us having big numbers just fine.

Edited June 26, 2020 by taiiat

[GenryusaiYamamoto13]

Oh no, Bramma meta-slaves cannot take down enemies like before. Welp, might as well replace Grineer yellow health bars with a red bars.

I want tougher enemies.

Edited June 26, 2020 by GenryusaiYamamoto13

[GKP_light]

I don't want old armor, i want old HP.

and i am fine with a bit of pewercreep with time on the weapon.

[Thrymm]

Gotta agree with most of the folks here--we CAN have both.

What we need is balance and direction.  DE needs to focus on specific levels of desired difficulty, then target our gear effectiveness to the ability to handle it.  From there, enemies can get tweaked to be harder/easier as desired, and weapons can be tweaked to be better/worse as desired.

What we have now is not that.  We get weapons, then enemies.  Then weapons that are more powerful and trivialize enemies, then instead of harder enemies, we get binary "higher level" enemies, and weapons with additional zeros that again trivialize that content., and the cycle repeats, ever upward.  We're now at a point that enemy level is largely meaningless because effective weapon strategy simply circumvents the mechanical limitations of the enemies.

Reverting the armor change doesn't fix anything, it shifts enemies back to the "armored means spongey so circumvent it or not armored equals trivial" concept we had before.  Continuing to make ever stronger weapons just continues to trivialize things further, if that's even possible considering that we're already virtually ignoring the game mechanics anyway.

If DE where to pick an arbitrary number and balance weapons to it, we'd be able to have both.  For example:

Let's say level 100 is the "balance level"(made up number, but hopefully a relatable one).  At that point, we can look at how weapons handle a level 100 enemy.  Weapons that handle it poorly can be buffed.  Weapons that handle it too well can be nerfed.  They need not have complete and utter parity, all weapons need not be completely even, but some semblance of relatability to function on same level enemy--a KNOWN AND FIXED level-- means we now have a genuine design point.

When a new weapon or frame comes out, we can trust that its balance and power function in a manner with that level enemy in mind.  No more watching DE get blindsided by the relative power of a new weapon, because they built it with a target in mind.  Some enemies can become harder than others by being more difficult, smarter and cohesive.  Shield and Armor functionality can be balanced to one another based on a known damage level of enemy.  Endless missions can have a very real "force out" point and pushing yourself to exceed that can become an actual challenge, rather than a test to see who can drink the most monster energy because sleep deprivation or boredom forces you out rather than enemies.

In my opinion, you can have both if you're willing to target a balance point.

[kgabor]

The powercreep just limits variety, there can be stronger weapons, but they need to be balanced, like with a skillcheck, or adding some sort of weakness that limits the weapon.

Harder enemies are also something this game needs, it's called progression, but first an A.I. rework and other adjustments are needed.

It's both possible and ideal to have both, any well balanced or harder game would show you that.

[Nakti]

2 часа назад, Thrymm сказал:

and the cycle repeats, ever upward. 

This is what I always think when hear “difficulty in Warframe”. Enemies get higher number, which are either unbearable at all or can be handled with OP weapons/frames. Then DE tunes new enemies around stronger players, and players need to become even stronger than that.

 

And that’s why we shouldn’t have both more durable enemies and stronger weapons: this will change nothing. It will just widen the gap between players who have and who don’t have high enough numbers to deal with hardened enemies. Those who have high DPS, won’t notice hardness if enemies. Those who don’t have - well, they’ll lose however hard they try.

[(XBOX)THANOTOS OMEGA]

1 hour ago, Nakti said:

This is what I always think when hear “difficulty in Warframe”. Enemies get higher number, which are either unbearable at all or can be handled with OP weapons/frames. Then DE tunes new enemies around stronger players, and players need to become even stronger than that.

 

And that’s why we shouldn’t have both more durable enemies and stronger weapons: this will change nothing. It will just widen the gap between players who have and who don’t have high enough numbers to deal with hardened enemies. Those who have high DPS, won’t notice hardness if enemies. Those who don’t have - well, they’ll lose however hard they try.

Yep what's needed is a complete overhaul of the entire mentality behind gear and enemies, that replaces the current smashing numbers against each other occasionally broken up by more and more tedious enemies, with an eb and flow between weaker enemies to stronger and back down again, or the game will always just be about raw farming speed, as it stands the game is a pretty standard gotcha game with real time combat over over turnbased,

[DatDarkOne]

On 2020-06-26 at 12:41 AM, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Nullifier - a weak cancer enemy that has a stupid ability to strip our buffs and waste our time on rebuffing. I'd prefer to have him as strong and deadly as bursas with powerful railguns but just not be able to completely remove most buffs (so that it would be ok to engage them at melee). The rest of bubble abilities are fine (immune to tenno powers, silence while inside the bubble, buffs turned off while inside, but work on when you exit, etc). The worst is when you play invis heroes or buff dependant tank like Rhino. Nullifier can strip you of your protection even through wall or while jumping around/spawning nearby and you are dead at high levels in a blink of an eye. 

In my 4+ years of playing Nullifiers have NEVER been a problem for me.  I play and main an Invisible frame Ivara.  Nullies haven't been a problem for me because I do few things that stop them from being a problem.  Those are: I pay attention to my surroundings, don't blindly rush into an area where I can get blindsided (enemy radar helps in both of these cases).  Lastly, I balance my weapon loadout so they aren't ever a problem.   Meaning that while I use the Daikyu as my primary, I'll balance balance it with a high RoF secondary.  

So the whole nullies can suddenly strip you of your invis or buffs argument just never really made much sense to me.  Well unless you're just Leeroy Jenkins into them without ever noticing the HUGE Arse glowing bubble.  😄  

Edited June 27, 2020 by DatDarkOne

[DrakeWurrum]

Let's be clear about one thing for this discussion....

The Wolf was not hard. He was simply a bullet sponge.

If you died to him, it's basically just because you were stupid enough to stand still and LET him kill you.

An enemy is not hard just because they have a lot of EHP.

Edited June 27, 2020 by DrakeWurrum

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Let's be clear about one thing for this discussion....

The Wolf was not hard. He was simply a bullet sponge.

If you died to him, it's basically just because you were stupid enough to stand still and LET him kill you.

[GKP_light]

il y a 43 minutes, DrakeWurrum a dit :

Let's be clear about one thing for this discussion....

The Wolf was not hard. He was simply a bullet sponge.

If you died to him, it's basically just because you were stupid enough to stand still and LET him kill you.

An enemy is not hard just because they have a lot of EHP.

but if he died in one hit like most of the ennemis, he would not even kill the player "stupid enough to stand still".

so it is harder than the other ennemis.

Edited June 27, 2020 by GKP_light

[Scar.brother.help.me]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

In my 4+ years of playing Nullifiers have NEVER been a problem for me.  I play and main an Invisible frame Ivara.  Nullies haven't been a problem for me because I do few things that stop them from being a problem.  Those are: I pay attention to my surroundings, don't blindly rush into an area where I can get blindsided (enemy radar helps in both of these cases).  Lastly, I balance my weapon loadout so they aren't ever a problem.   Meaning that while I use the Daikyu as my primary, I'll balance balance it with a high RoF secondary.  

So the whole nullies can suddenly strip you of your invis or buffs argument just never really made much sense to me.  Well unless you're just Leeroy Jenkins into them without ever noticing the HUGE Arse glowing bubble.  😄  

Sounds like you play solo. In that case it is true. But when you play with others, you need to be fast, there is no time for slow prowl. And the longer you stay in endless mission the more insane these bubbles become. They can spawn so many and so close to you that you get touched by it randomly and die. For example I play a lot arbitrations as Ivara, but only Infested or Grineer, because they can't dispell my bubbles, prowl and dashwires. Just try it with Corpus/Orokin and you'll understand.

[DatDarkOne]

9 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

But when you play with others, you need to be fast, there is no time for slow prowl. And the longer you stay in endless mission the more insane these bubbles become. They can spawn so many and so close to you that you get touched by it randomly and die. For example I play a lot arbitrations as Ivara, but only Infested or Grineer, because they can't dispell my bubbles, prowl and dashwires. Just try it with Corpus/Orokin and you'll understand.

While I mostly play Solo, I have done these missions types so with Ivara and in groups.  Both in Corpus and Void Missions.  Nullies appear in both.  Even while grouped with others, Nullifiers have nevere just appeared out of nowhere and surprised me.  As I said before, the HUGE GLOWING BUBBLE is kinda hard to miss.  Heck, I regularly group with a specific Streamer who picks these areas.  This is during Defense, Survival, Disruption, etc.  None of them in the groups had this issue of not noticing Nullies either.  

Hence again why I just don't understand why people seem to have so many problems with them.  

edit:  In Solo missions with Ivara, the nullies will disable their bubbles after a few minutes after spawning unless alerted.  

2nd edit:  I specifically use Ivara in Void Defense mission with that group because they love to turn on the lasers as a joke.  

Edited June 27, 2020 by DatDarkOne

[BlackCat500]

I love armor scaling as it is right now because it was a problem for it to scale out the __ . I would like a lot more enemies like nox and aerolysts that take a brain to fight rather than just pure damage and cc. Particularly, if anything is ever done with modes like steel path. Games like dead cells spawn in new varieties of units on higher difficulty levels and it definitely causes more challenge and variation for those that desire it.

 

I suppose I like weapon damage where it is right now on the average build, but there are many discrepancies with some weapons being outright useless (hi, stug) and others that may hit too hard. If the playfield had less nasty outliers, things would be a lot easier to balance, but for that we need some nerfs, some buffs and most certainly no more even stronger weapons in the future. If things work like a normal mmorpg, where the gear of the next update far outclasses the previous one, eventually most of the content will become way too easy and they have to either fix that or nerf the things people have grown to love. I don't have the solution to this problem, mind you, but it's something to think about. Whether we need a complete overhaul of the modding system (which would be ridiculous of a task to undertake) or similar things, I don't know..but I do know that constantly releasing stronger and stronger stuff when all the scaling we get are just higher numbers is not going to help this issue at all.

[DrakeWurrum]

20 hours ago, GKP_light said:

but if he died in one hit like most of the ennemis, he would not even kill the player "stupid enough to stand still".

so it is harder than the other ennemis.

Not really. He just took longer.

The only challenge from it was the effect on a player's patience.

Edited June 28, 2020 by DrakeWurrum