What we know of hard mode

[paulogabbi]

3 minutes ago, trst said:

For those complaining the mode isn't made for those who want the latest "shiny", it's for those who want to be able to fight against enemies where our obscene damage can actually matter and to shave an hour or two (potentially more depending on endless scaling) off of the snooze fest that is waiting in endless for level appropriate enemies.

If that isn't of interest then sorry but you're not the target audience here. People that are tired of the difficulty being the equivalent of creative mode in Minecraft have been begging for DE to do something about that for years now.

only hope this is not lunaro2.0  electric boogaloo

[(PSN)poloslash18]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Watching some streams, it seems level 125 Vay Hek is a problem. Maybe some bosses will need to be individually adjusted unless you bring a team.

I think that’s good. Not everything must be soloable from the get go. People with time will find better ways to deal with him in solo. 
 

I think they should address the kid... It’s basically god mode. At least make your frame get downed while in operator mode so you can’t just panic button transference ane heal with Magus Repair in the middle of enemies.

[KIREEK]

On 2020-06-26 at 11:50 PM, paulogabbi said:

so for now it is basically

clear the starmap again and forget about it

gotcha

High level unlocks high level (aka High spawn) versions of the map, meaning instead of waiting for sorties or arbitrations, you can now do the old draco and expand that to mars, jupiter, europa and earth.

It's not just high level, it's lots and lots of spawns, making the missions way more profitable. You cannot profit atm from corpus ship interception, because it's on venus and phobos, with low to mid spawns, even if you kill everything the cap is the spawn count, you'll be staring at walls most of the time.

With high level, comes the farm, which will reward you even more. The level increase is to make sure you can't instakill 30 enemies on the map, so there is some balance to it, however the potential is there.

When earth interception was broken, the spawns overwelmed new players, causing even the best veterans to fail the mission because they joined at a moment where the % where out of wack, but if you came soon enough to garantee success, you would provide newbies with so many mods and resources that DE had to cut down the issue, both to slow down the resource gathering and to provide atleast an easier challenge for interception, it was unusual for newbies to go from a 30 kill exterminate to a 30 spawn per second interception.

What you think happened to viver and draco, they changed the nodes to something else and now only low to midlevel areas exist.

If you're going to farm mods (to sell for platinum) you might very well repeat hard mode, i don't mean hard mode sabotage or capture, but likely the defenses, interceptions, exterminates.

Obviously if you kill twice as slow but gain twice as much loot then hard mode won't make a difference.

[paulogabbi]

2 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

High level unlocks high level (aka High spawn) versions of the map, meaning instead of waiting for sorties or arbitrations, you can now do the old draco and expand that to mars, jupiter, europa and earth.

It's not just high level, it's lots and lots of spawns, making the missions way more profitable. You cannot profit atm from corpus ship interception, because it's on venus and phobos, with low to mid spawns, even if you kill everything the cap is the spawn count, you'll be staring at walls most of the time.

With high level, comes the farm, which will reward you even more. The level increase is to make sure you can't instakill 30 enemies on the map, so there is some balance to it, however the potential is there.

When earth interception was broken, the spawns overwelmed new players, causing even the best veterans to fail the mission because they joined at a moment where the % where out of wack, but if you came soon enough to garantee success, you would provide newbies with so much mods and resources that DE had to cut down the issue, both to slow down the resource gathering and to provide atleast an easier challenge for interception, it was unusual for newbies to go from a 30 kill exterminate to a 30 spawn per second interception.

What you think happened to viver and draco, they changed the nodes to something else and now only low to midlevel areas exist.

If you're going to farm mods (to sell for platinum) you might very well repeat hard mode, i don't mean hard mode sabotage or capture, but likely the defenses, interceptions, exterminates.

Obviously if you kill twice as slow but gain twice as much loot then hard mode won't make a difference.

good point but for exp it is better to run giant point

also pl is made opening relics, i hope it do have  a resource booster drop on traces/kuva

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb trst:

For those complaining the mode isn't made for those who want the latest "shiny", it's for those who want to be able to fight against enemies where our obscene damage can actually matter and to shave an hour or two (potentially more depending on endless scaling) off of the snooze fest that is waiting in endless for level appropriate enemies.

If that isn't of interest then sorry but you're not the target audience here. People that are tired of the difficulty being the equivalent of creative mode in Minecraft have been begging for DE to do something about that for years now.

Let me know after two months or so if you and those other target audience people still frequently play on hard mode. I'm not saying you wont. I'm just honestly curious if a somewhat substantial amount of people will play this long term. If so, that's absolutely fine. I just expect it to be pretty dead pretty fast.

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

I think that’s good. Not everything must be soloable from the get go. People with time will find better ways to deal with him in solo. 

Agreed. 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

I think they should address the kid... It’s basically god mode. At least make your frame get downed while in operator mode so you can’t just panic button transference ane heal with Magus Repair in the middle of enemies.

They are adding a cooldown to energy pads. The next logical step is to add a cooldown/drawbacks to operator and maybe double the cooldown of Arcane Energize. Hard mode is the perfect place to do this without affecting the rest of the game.

[Angwah]

 

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Ah. Yeah, I voiced my concerns (to put it mildly) in the announcement thread and it looks like I expected it to be. We'll see how many of those "I will keep playing it for the challenge" people will still play it one or two months after release. I know I wont.

Ok, the mastery is a one-off, but hard mode gives more resources and mods which I guess is okayish, but most importantly more affinity/focus. Hmm, Steel Path Vodyanoi will be so good with a good squad! Why would you ever waste time running a mission on normal again? Even if you actually run those missions for their regular loot tables, why miss out on the rest?

Bring on Steel Path sorties, (E)SO, Eidolons and other bosses, Railjack, kuva siphons/floods, liches and first and foremost egg opening. Well, basically everything will get the Steel Path treatment I hope!

[vanaukas]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

I think they should address the kid... It’s basically god mode. At least make your frame get downed while in operator mode so you can’t just panic button transference ane heal with Magus Repair in the middle of enemies.

I'm an operator only player and that suggestion doesn't make sense. The point of that arcane is precisely do that (and they should nerf it, it's too strong and too fast, 4 secs of void mode = 100% heals). Understand that giving energy and healing the frame isn't all the oprator gameplay.

[Jarriaga]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Let me know after two months or so if you and those other target audience people still frequently play on hard mode. I'm not saying you wont. I'm just honestly curious if a somewhat substantial amount of people will play this long term. If so, that's absolutely fine. I just expect it to be pretty dead pretty fast.

It's not like "many" people can play it to begin with. If we go by the key lottery thread requiring Arbitrations, we got little over 5,000 requests, or 11% of average daily Steam players for the past 30 days. DE know it's a low number of players and will likely remain a low number just because of the unlocking requirements alone.  

At that stage I don't think a significant number of players will be looking back when there's something else to push for even if it's just mastery.

[paulogabbi]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

I think that’s good. Not everything must be soloable from the get go. People with time will find better ways to deal with him in solo. 
 

I think they should address the kid... It’s basically god mode. At least make your frame get downed while in operator mode so you can’t just panic button transference ane heal with Magus Repair in the middle of enemies.

even now i am hoping one day shows up and say "operator was a joke how dragged too long we are now removing it and replacing it whit a kavat"

[Jarriaga]

25 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Why would you ever waste time running a mission on normal again?

For me personally, Kuva, Void Traces and Vitus. So far they don't seem to scale in hard mode, likely because drop tables don't change and those resources are not affected by drop chance boosters (Except Vitus because of drones). This means that Kuva missions, Void Fissures and Arbitrations are objectively more productive in normal mode because of TTK vs. reward.

Just imagine Kuva Disruption starting at level 140 but still giving you 350 Kuva per C rotation. Nearly 4 times the starting level (And only going up from there) for the same reward. That doesn't fly well in my opinion.

I see myself going back and forth between modes instead of fulling graduating if that's not addressed.

[(PSN)poloslash18]

8 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

I'm an operator only player and that suggestion doesn't make sense. The point of that arcane is precisely do that (and they should nerf it, it's too strong and too fast, 4 secs of void mode = 100% heals). Understand that giving energy and healing the frame isn't all the oprator gameplay.

Operator only pla... Ok, I didn’t know those were a thing. I knew of people who do challenge runs with operators but not people playing everything exclusively with the operator.

I like targeting unpopular things on these forums so the fans of those thing won’t come and shut my ideas down. You caught me by surprise. So nevermind what I said. 

Can’t wait for the fishing rod only players.

 

[vanaukas]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

Operator only pla... Ok, I didn’t know those were a thing. I knew of people who do challenge runs with operators but not people playing everything exclusively with the operator.

I like targeting unpopular things on these forums so the fans of those thing won’t come and shut my ideas down. You caught me by surprise. So nevermind what I said. 

Can’t wait for the fishing rod only players.

don't worry, I'm aware about the popularity and the myths susrrounding the operator. I'm excited to start doing videos again without falling sleep waiting for enemies to reach a decent level to show the potential of the full power void demon.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Angwah:

 

Ok, the mastery is a one-off, but hard mode gives more resources and mods which I guess is okayish, but most importantly more affinity/focus. Hmm, Steel Path Vodyanoi will be so good with a good squad! Why would you ever waste time running a mission on normal again? Even if you actually run those missions for their regular loot tables, why miss out on the rest?

Bring on Steel Path sorties, (E)SO, Eidolons and other bosses, Railjack, kuva siphons/floods, liches and first and foremost egg opening. Well, basically everything will get the Steel Path treatment I hope!

I'd pass on that because I have all (PvE) mods, maxed focus and a ton of resources (except Kuva, Vitus and Mutagen Samples). As I said earlier, ironically hard mode will be the place to bring your unfinished gear to. Sitting with three leechers (and I bet hard mode leveling will be full of them) in Hydron with higher level enemies again if I Forma something isn't really exciting or is it? Is that what a hard mode should be for? To level you MR fodder faster?

I hope for all of what you mentioned in your second paragraph to happen. As OP, I hope Kuva and Vitus Essence is affected. Vitus drops from drones should be. Kuva doesn't randomly drop and might not be affected at all.

I think some people also misunderstand some critical voices. I want hard mode to be a big success. I'd like everyone capable to always play on hard mode as default, as graduation into a new difficulty. As a reward driven player I just see myself and others not incentivised to keep playing on hard mode after it's cleared right now. Which in turn means for others that the hard mode nodes will be less populated. This might result in people to switch and stay on normal again to find squads and all that's left are solo players and pre-mades that play it for the challenge. How many or few that would be is unknown. Ask Conclave or Railjack players about how many regular players they have due to low overall interest and how that affects matchmaking - especially on less populated regions and platforms - and you might see how that might be the same for hard mode if it doesn't pique the interest of many different player types. "Muh challenge! Why do I find noone to play with?" - "Well, we told you so, but you sat on your high horse telling others not to play it. Well, they don't play it.".

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some new infos come out. Maybe they'll change something based on tester feedback. We'll see.

[Angwah]

 

27 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

For me personally, Kuva, Void Traces and Vitus. So far the don't seem to scale in hard mode, likely because drop tables don't change and those resources are not affected by drop chance boosters (Except Vitus because of drones). This means that Kuva missions, Void Fissures and Arbitrations are objectively more productive in normal mode because of TTK vs. reward.

I see myself going back and forth between mods instead of fulling graduating if that's not addressed.

Eh, if you finished the star chart, which is the requirement, TTK between a lvl 40 or a lvl 140 isn't all that different. Well worth it for the affinity gain! Hard mode Arbritations are also definitely golden just because of increased vitus essence as you mentioned. 

But yes, I get your point for the kuva missions and relics, though, tbh, I prefer leveling stuff with those missions (or ESO, even Railjack) over doing Hydron or Helene and I don't think I am the only one. Which is the main reason I am hoping for the other stuff to get the Steel Path treatment, so as not to make those two on hard mode the ultimate and only place to level.

There is also the Index, which defintely wouldn't work with just increasing the levels and not the reward. But they might have added an extra tier, like they did with the Cetus bounties? That would make sense I guess...

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

45 minutes ago, Angwah said:

but most importantly more affinity/focus.

No. Hard mode is ~50% more affinity. Stealth Adaro can already cap your focus quota in a couple runs, and its far more efficient to slide through the map oneshotting and getting stealth xp bonuses on non-hard mode. The same is going to go for Hydron/Helene. Its easier to just kill more enemies on the low level mission since you can do it faster.

As for resources, again, more efficient to just do low level and kill more. And all the resources you actually would want won't be affected. Vodyanoi is really the only thing that gains a noticeable benefit.

Also I heard no mention of hard mode arbitrations. Given their nature as alert type missions with an already modified level, I find it doubtful they will be included

[Jarriaga]

15 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Eh, if you finished the star chart, which is the requirement, TTK between a lvl 40 or a lvl 140 isn't all that different.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Particularly so in the context of Kuva Disruption. Demolishers scale way above regular enemies. Just imagine Kuva Disruption starting at level 140 but still giving you 350 Kuva per C rotation. Nearly 4 times the starting level (And only going up from there) for the same reward. That doesn't fly well in my opinion.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Watching some streams, it seems level 125 Vay Hek is a problem. Maybe some bosses will need to be individually adjusted unless you bring a team.

His bee form? yes, absolutely, that thing's a pain-in-the-ass.

However, I do somewhat look forward to taking on his turkey form. Last time I fought a level 100 of that (Kuva Flood), it was actually pretty cool.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Is that -50% affinity confirmed?

Rebecca said on stream that you get more affinity because enemies are higher level. Affinity scaling formula is base xp x [1 + 0.1425(enemy level)^0.5]. So the increase in affinity would be given by [1 + 0.1425(enemy level)^0.5] / [1 + 0.1425(enemy level + 100)^0.5]. X here is the "normal" mission level. So a mission with a base enemy level of say 2 would see you get 2x (i.e +100%) the affinity in hard mode. As the base level goes up, you see a decline in the bonus

[Loza03]

32 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

don't worry, I'm aware about the popularity and the myths susrrounding the operator. I'm excited to start doing videos again without falling sleep waiting for enemies to reach a decent level to show the potential of the full power void demon.

I look forward to watching these videos, because I genuinely like the Operators in theory but... I just can't in practice. I would be interested in seeing them be actually capable.

[Hypernaut1]

If you won't play because the rewards aren't enticing enough... That's great! don't play it! Stick to normal starchart. That's the point. If you're not going to find the fun in it, ignore it. Leave it as a sandbox for the devs to play with difficulty for the rest of us that are interested in the gameplay. Energy pads on a cool down is a sign that DE is willing to experiment. I like it. 

There might still need to be balancing, but that feedback should come from players that want a challenge, not those looking to get resources faster.

 

[(PSN)Deeceem]

Gerade eben schrieb (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom:

Rebecca said on stream that you get more affinity because enemies are higher level. Affinity scaling formula is base xp x [1 + 0.1425(enemy level)^0.5]. So the increase in affinity would be given by [1 + 0.1425(enemy level)^0.5] / [1 + 0.1425(enemy level + 100)^0.5].

Yeah I misread "~" as a minus. Paired with me not realizing that "minus 50% more" didn't make sense in the first place I created that idiotic question. Thanks for answering it anways.

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There might still need to be balancing, but that feedback should come from players that want a challenge, not those looking to get resources faster.

There needs to be a middle ground though. Kuva doesn't scale at this time. Kuva Disruption starting at level 140 but still giving you 350 Kuva per C rotation in hard mode doesn't fly well in my opinion, and ultimately means that I would be going back and forth between modes rather than graduating to hard-mode-only.

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

His bee form? yes, absolutely, that thing's a pain-in-the-ass.

However, I do somewhat look forward to taking on his turkey form. Last time I fought a level 100 of that (Kuva Flood), it was actually pretty cool.

I'm personally looking forward to Vor + Kril and Ropalolyst.

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

There needs to be a middle ground though. Kuva doesn't scale at this time. Kuva Disruption starting at level 140 but still giving you 350 Kuva per C rotation in hard mode doesn't fly well in my opinion, and ultimately means that I would be going back and forth between modes rather than graduating to hard-mode-only.

I agree with you completely, it needs to be balanced. But I want it balanced to be fair, not for greed so people can get 3x the normal kuva gain in the same time.