Why doesn't energy regenerate?

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, headsoup said:

But the ammo builds for each weapon separately, I'm building a reserve of secondary ammo while depleting primary ammo.  There is no such thing for energy, it's all one pool.  I can't reserve energy for an 'ult' skill while using another ability.

And you start missions with full ammo...

yeah i wasn't agreeing or disagreeing there.

33 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

One of the reasons I push for cooldown

wrong type of game for it, and it's not going to become the right type of game for it without scrapping the game and starting over but keeping the Art Assets.
the only Cooldowns that would work in the pace of Warframe, are Cooldowns that are irrelevant to limiting anything in Gameplay. and creating an inordinate amount of work to have like, 1-5 Second Cooldowns is one of the biggest wastes of time i could possibly imagine.
it wouldn't even be my responsibility and even i'm almost offended at suggesting such a thing.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

When I started playing Warframe I picked Volt because his description states he's an alternative to gunplay. I expected to use my abilities instead of guns. Oh how wrong I was. Ironically, Excalibur fits this description more.

 

My point is that for a power fantasy game, having our abilities limited by energy is asinine. We should have cooldowns instead of energy with mods like Streamline and such reducing the cooldown period.

[headsoup]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

...  I'm of the opinion that Warframe works best when players use a "combined arms" approach, mixing gunplay (guns AND melee), mobility and abilities together. If we can agree that "specialised classes" are not intended by design and that ability use ought to be just one tool in a larger toolbox (rather than the primary tool, to which all else is secondary), then I think the stigma around cooldowns goes away. I guess I didn't fully appreciate the disconnect between my own "combined arms" ideology and people's desire to see Warframe as a "class-based" game until you pointed it out. Knowing this, though, I fear our differences may be irreconcilable. Which I guess is fine - to each his own preference. At least now I have a name to put on the source of disagreement.

I agree here, warframe doesn't suit having classes, it's core loop is around fast hybrid play.  Where I think it has design problems is in exactly what the abilities are all about and how an energy economy fits in.

I don't think it fits the design theme to slow down skill use for the sake of balance, but then how do you stop abilities overshadowing the combat.

So if there is no real 'caster' class/archetype, remove energy (mana), make the abilities permanently available and then balance on utility and power.

I personally think while there are balance issues with her, Nyx is a fantastic example of what to do - her 1 is tactical, but the player can choose a target for healing/shield or assault (needs tweaking...).  Her 2 creates utility in weakening the strongest units, but only some so targeting is required.  Her 3 is the 'oh crap I'm overwhelmed' button and her 4 the 'now I'm mad' button.  With no energy pool, these abilities can be adjusted to create restrictions, e.g. Chaos last longer based on the time since last cast, Absorb could provide 75% DR instead of 100%, creating risk against duration, Etc.

I think a change of focus towards how abilities purely support the combat loop (or the team role in this) with utility and buffs would actually remove the need for energy, while tightening (imo) the design focus.

 

 

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

while this is true, Abilities tend to have a more major effect relative to the amount of Pickups, on your power/completion of the Mission. a couple Magazines from your Gun Kills maybe a room of Enemies, while an Ability could do that all at once or provide some major offensive/defensive trait.

Or it could be Valkyr 1. Is this a bad ability? No, I just won't use it because the energy is valuable, even if it costs 5 energy. On the other hand, if I always know that I will get my energy back, then I will use it. 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

how, in any way whatsoever, does automatically getting your consumable resources "encourage active Gameplay". it literally does the opposite. if you don't have functionally infinite of your consumable resources when they just fall from the sky, you are directly being encouraged to be very passive and wait for those resources to come back. because your resources come from time, not Gameplay.

Ok. Then why not make a passive recovery, but add things that will still encourage active gameplay and not keep you waiting? I do see a reason to keep both of these things in play. People who won't use all these things will just wait. On the other hand, play actively with weapons and small spam abilities. You know, you don't have to wait. You can just ratatata while your energy recovers.

On the other hand, really, getting energy orb as a drop from a mob that killed my ally is active gameplay? I've never understood why people talk about it as something special. All strong things that restore energy are now almost passive. You either get it from RNG drop, or spam zenuric, or let the enemies beat you. 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

that some Warframes have some very mediocre Abilities is not an Energy problem, most of those Abilities simply are not very useful to begin with. you could get away with making those low performing Abilities a lot cheaper, but really the better goal is to make them more useful. since it is my experience that Players in Video Games don't take that well to things that they can do that are based around continuous active spamming of it. a common preference for a Weapon or an Ability that is manually operated, to strike the sort of balance that one may find for example in... Veldt, moreso than in say... AkBolto.
and since Abilities do tend to fall into this group of manually operated things - we don't really have 'Assault Abilities', after all. so while thoeoretically you could reduce the Energy Cost of Airburst to like 5 Energy... it would still be a crap Ability that serves no real purpose and simply having to constantly spam it get some use out of it wouldn't make anybody happy either.

Yes, some abilities are really bad. But some abilities are useful and fun, but you just won't use them because you never know when you'll get your energy back if you don't use zenuric or rage. About, "Assault Abilities" I think that many abilities could be remade for interaction with weapons. All we need is for them not to interrupt our firing and reloading.

And the last thing I want to say: I understand perfectly well that you see abilities as a reward for actions, but this just goes against the idea that abilities should be used as frame gameplay. And if with regeneration I can do it, with arcane energizer I don't always know that I will get my energy back. And without energy, many frames are gun platforms. And this is literally why people play Inaros. And, I also do not mind if many mobs would be able to suck our energy so that we need to kill them. But give us the opportunity to recover from their effects passively, without resorting to any crutches.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

somehow i never have issue with energy without rage, without arcanes and with negative efficiency 

idk why this thread exists 

[headsoup]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

somehow i never have issue with energy without rage, without arcanes and with negative efficiency 

idk why this thread exists 

And yet you commented... What MR are you, what frame(s) do you play?  Posting vague 'I'm so great' anecdotes doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

And please expand, how do you ensure energy remains plentiful if you're not through the star chart yet?

[selig_fay]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

somehow i never have issue with energy without rage, without arcanes and with negative efficiency

idk why this thread exists

Well, I also don't have energy problems when I play Trinity, Harrow, Hildryn, Garuda, Gauss, Nezha and Proteia. You know, they can all restore energy through their abilities. The rest of the frames... Are you sure you are ready to spend 25 energy on Rhino charge in the current energy system?

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

more is more, being random is not much of an issue when it's more dice that you can roll without any real investment cost.

Technicality true but in Practice its not reliable and i would prefer to have something i could plan around rafher than yet another RNG system....

We have enough of those... we dont need more.. 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

there already aren't really any problems, but people grumble about having to choose to spec into the tools that are available, and so you create more types of tools and maybe someone will be un-lazy enough to use one of them if you just keep creating more of them.

Yeah well thats what happens when you keep using Band Aids to give people what they ask for.... and its going to keep happening until DE stops making people use specific tools to achieve something that really should work by defaul without any Dependencies.

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

have you tried using Efficiency Mods, the myriad of Equipment options that can offer Energy, among all of the other tools?

Mod Slots.... Precious Precious Mod Slots....

We just dont have any to spare because apparently we still have to sacrifice slots for obvious things like Survivability. 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

there already aren't really any problems, but people grumble about having to choose to spec into the tools that are available, and so you create more types of tools and maybe someone will be un-lazy enough to use one of them if you just keep creating more of them.

Okay let me go through all these Options one by one and show you exactly why people grumble about these things.

1) Energizing Dash - Locks you into a specific Focus School.

2) Arcane Energize - Not the worst thing in the world but its Double RNG (first you need to Roll for the Orbs and then Roll for the arcane to Proc)... and i honestly would rather be using Arcane Consequence/Agility... they should just nerf this Arcane.... again 

3) Equilibrium - Sacrifices a Mod Slod, and Relies on RNG orbs.

4) Rage/Hunter Adrenaline - I play Booben and Ivara, Enough Said ?

5) Entropy/Blight Syndicate Proc - Forces you to use 10 Very Specific weapons, Half of them Are rubbish....not only that but you actually have have the weapon in your hands.... you cant just leave it on your back like you can with The Telos Boltace for its Passive. 

6) Augments/Abilities - Most of them are RNG and because the Value of the Orb stays at 25 Energy it winds up being rubbish anyway... wait... The Orbs from Helicopter Copter Shield mom.... are those Guaranteed drops ? In any case nobody wants to get locked into a Specific Warframe or use a Mod Slot just to be able to use their Abilities.  This is something i experienced when i went from Mag to Trinity.... i had all the energy in The world and couldnt even use to to heal Excavators. 

7) Energy Restores - Extremely Expensive to craft.... Im MR 26 and I went from 3 Million Credits to 50K Credits because of Crafting these things... had i not run out of Credits then My Polymer Bundles would have been next...

😎 Exodia Might - Never used it.... also Im not giving up my Exodia Contagion under any circumstances... and thats if i decide to use a Zaw to begin with.... i prefer The Telos Boltace (Again, only for its Passive)

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

your Mod and Equipment choices don't consist of just bandaids. it consists of you speccing into Stats.
you don't get to just decide that one type of Stat isn't a Stat because you don't like it. if you didn't have to think about Energy, you'd just be putting on more Strength or Range or Duration or EHP.

Well yes... then i can finally have a durable Warframe with an Effective Kit.... oh god... the Horror !! 😞

Seriously though Modding is boring especially since content released these days start either locking you into specific builds or worse.... into a few selection of viable Warframes....

can you imagine what its like to have literally all of your Abilities do nothing in the Granuum Void ? Atleast thats one solution to the Energy Problem.... just disable all abilities.... nobody was complaining about Energy during Dog Days...

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

the only fully comprehensible complaint i can hear here is "i can't have this Ability active 100% of the time". okay.

I mean if the Ability just makes you happy and is fun to you literally 100% of the time.... would that be such a bad thing ?

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

DE did put abilities in on a cooldown originally, they then changed it to the Energy system because they found (in their words, not mine) that people just disengaged from playing if they had timers. They backed off, some even hid, until timers were done. This wasn't what DE wanted from their game, they wanted players to engage to get their kills and play faster and more fluidly.

I wish i had this when i was newbie....

Having my abilities on a Timer would have granted me WAAAAAAAY more access to my Abilities then just being completely out of Energy because i happened to choose Mag instead of Volt or Excalibur as my starter.... lets be honest Mag literally only has 2 Abilities for new players, Magnetize and Crush. Pull is Literally Hot Garbage in 99% of cases and Polarize is Hot Garbage without Strength and the Augment.... and those Abilities are not Cheap.... crush needs 100 Energy and Magnetize needs 50 I think....

I dont know about you but it took significantly more than 2 Magnetize Casts before i ever saw another 2 Energy Orbs... to restock energy to use Magnetize again.... 

Crush is even Worse since that doesnt even kill anything.... the description made it seem like it was the strongest thing in the world but all it really is just a CC/Survivability thing.... i dont think a 5 Second CC should cost 100 Energy. 

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

What they came up with is actually something nobody has mentioned at all: Ability Ammo.

As a concept this is functionally different than, say, mana that can regen. This is Ammo for abilities, and needs to be picked up, needs functions to multiply it, needs abilities that can restore it (even though Protea is the first frame to actually restore weapon ammo), and needs mods that can give some of it back over time or as a sacrifice for taking damage. And it needs mods to reduce its cost, the same as we have Multishot and Ammo Efficiency stats for our weapons, increasing the number of bullets we fire for the amount of Ammo we have, we can increase Efficiency and cast more abilities for the Energy we have.

It allows, and even builds in, the ability to spam in limited amounts because we have more Ammo, and it also allows and builds in the Scarcity concept that DE have used already for some of their weapons. Snipers and Bows, powerful in the single shot, have low ammo and their ammo source is rare, unless you have a scavenger mod.

Energy is just Ammo for Abilities, and that allows for Abilities to be balanced between frames the way they would balance any other 'weapon'. So the only way you'll get regen, or more of it, is if you use functions in the game that are acquired over time and lots of progression

So... then why is energy even more scarce then Ammo is ? 

Hell when you start a mission you start with Max Ammo.... but if you want the same for your Warframe it will cost you a Mod Slot, 12 Capacity and 30 000 Endo.

I feel like Energy being ammo for abilities is incorrect just because DE is reluctant to just build in a reliable way of getting Energy. 

Imagine if you legit had to use a specific Focus school, Legendary Arcane and Sacrifice a Mod Slot just so you can use your gun ? 

 

Stupid right ? 

So why is it okay for this Stupidity to applied to Energy/Abilities?

4 hours ago, LSG501 said:

I disagree, my own experience shows that there is enough energy orbs dropping during missions... unless of course you just want to spam abilities and nothing else.   The other options are the for flexibility with builds so people can use negative efficiency etc

Disagree all you want... Zenurik didnt become the most used Focus School because Energy was reliable before this...

If you were and are still getting Enough energy Orbs then good for you.... i have a Rank 5 Arcane Energize that felt completely useless yesterday because for almost three consecutive missions i just wasnt getting enough Energy Orbs... and even if i was then Energize just refused to Proc (the only thing worse than Cool Down is Cool Down and RNG Working together)....

It wasnt until i switched Warframes that i was able to stay at 800 Energy all the time...a big part of that was because the Warframe i was using has a signature ability that drains from an entirely Seperate Gauge from the Energy Bar.... 

Thats literally the only time i didnt have to worry about Energy. 

4 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Although I don't want it nerfed, archwing (it has it's own issues) energy could be seen as too much because you can literally spam some abilities, even without adding on the efficiency mods, due to energy regen and orbs.

And ?  Just because you can Spam Abilities then it doesnt mean most players will...

Actual spamming is something ive only seen Embers,Volts, Proteas and Gauss's doing....

Protea and Gauss are actually interesting because DE literally designed these Warframes for Spamming. Protea 4th Ability is literally just Spam Mode and The Finicky nature of Gauss's Battery in conjunction with Thermal Sunder's Double Cast Requirement also just encourages Spamming.... i wouldnt even say "Encourage" is that right word here.... you are kinda forced to spam... either you cast it twice or the CC simply doesnt work.

More importantly if Spamming is fun then i say let the spammers have their fun... i personally dont spam unless the situation demands it but if others want to spam then who am I to say that they shouldn't?

4 hours ago, headsoup said:

 

I might be more conscious of bow ammo, but I know I still have a secondary as backup should I need it and the fact bows are low fire rate, high single target damage implies a considered playstyle

Is Bow Ammo Really scarce ? I never run out... mostly because i've accepted that Bows just dont compare to other weapons.... you dont get to deal more damage for using a bow despite how clunky they are.... Shotguns are just better and have more Ammo to boot.

3 hours ago, headsoup said:

And you start missions with full ammo...

Quoted For Emphasis....

[GREF_TM]

On 2020-07-07 at 10:00 AM, taiiat said:

Scavenger Auras

On 2020-07-07 at 10:00 AM, taiiat said:

very powerful

You're joking, right?

[Lutesque]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

somehow i never have issue with energy without rage, without arcanes and with negative efficiency 

idk why this thread exists 

 

47 minutes ago, headsoup said:

And yet you commented... What MR are you, what frame(s) do you play?  Posting vague 'I'm so great' anecdotes doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

And please expand, how do you ensure energy remains plentiful if you're not through the star chart yet?

Beat me to it 😛

10 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Well, I also don't have energy problems when I play Trinity, Harrow, Hildryn, Garuda, Gauss, Nezha and Proteia. You know, they can all restore energy through their abilities. The rest of the frames... Are you sure you are ready to spend 25 energy on Rhino charge in the current energy system?

I tried Modding Rhino for something other than Iron Skin.... Rhinos Abilities are very very costly....

[headsoup]

8 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Is Bow Ammo Really scarce ? I never run out... mostly because i've accepted that Bows just dont compare to other weapons.... you dont get to deal more damage for using a bow despite how clunky they are.... Shotguns are just better and have more Ammo to boot

Not really, I haven't struggled with it... But I'm only just completing the star chart. And sadly, much as I'm a huge bow fan, all my nice bows are laughed at by my shotgun, which has better accuracy too 😕

And on spamming, sure, go nuts, so long as it isn't always the most efficient and effective way to win. It must be balanced to not reduce gameplay/design to clicker hero.

 

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, headsoup said:

I don't think it fits the design theme to slow down skill use for the sake of balance, but then how do you stop abilities overshadowing the combat. So if there is no real 'caster' class/archetype, remove energy (mana), make the abilities permanently available and then balance on utility and power.

This is ostensibly what @Teridax68 suggested earlier. Remove energy, rebalance abilities, combat spam via ability design. Ignoring cooldowns for a moment, this is a good idea in theory which has issues in practice. For one thing, you'd need to fairly significantly rebalance quite a lot of abilities. For another, you still have to contend with an overwhelming number of abilities designed as ostensibly "ability-shaped weapons." Landslide, Virulence, Fireball, Shock, etc. - these abilities exist solely to create the illusion that a "caster" clast exists, who can lean on ability-derived basic attacks over weapons. I've always found these abilities to be a problem, because they're a "weapon replacement." When they're good, they override your weapons. When they're bad - and they almost always are - they're pointless over your weapons. Only when these abilities spawn a literal Exalted Weapon or pull stats from an equipped weapon (so they act as an Exalted Weapon by proxy) are they competitive, and at that point they're just Warframe-dependent weapons - not abilities.

I've given this example a few times, but it bears repeating: I love Nidus, but I hate actually playing him BECAUSE of his ability set. The most practical way to play Nidus is to pretend I don't have any weapons, throw a Larva into a crowd and mindlessly mash my 1 key in order to build up stacks of Mutation. Not only does virulence work like a surrogate weapon, its intended uptime and opportunity cost almost always make it more viable than my equipped weapons, at least once I have a few stacks under my belt. Yes, occasionally I'll need to snipe a Nox's head or pop a Nullifier bubble, but these are isolated cases. For anything else, I can just stomp. And if I go into missions high-level enough where stomping no longer works even with 100 stacks... Then I might as well not even bother bringing Nidus, because that IS his core gameplay loop. You could redesign him, certainly, but I don't really feel that a design exists where Nidus can keep Virulence acting as it does now AND also get infinite energy. I'd never get to use my guns at that point.

This is where cooldowns come back into the picture. Cooldowns are a means of physically sectioning off abilities as something players use when appropriate and don't use most of the rest of the time. They become additional, situational interactions which the players interact with part of the time, relying on the core game mechanics of mobility and - crucially - gunplay the majority of the time. Mobility is its own kettle of fish for another thread, but that still leaves us with gunplay. I firmly believe that people should be relying first and foremost on their guns. I'd say somewhere between 75-90% of their uptime ought to be movement and guns. Abilities, can still be important in this system, but their importance would come in a burst with individual activations, rather than spread out over repeated casts. This is possible to achieve via ability design up to a point, but it puts fairly serious limits on what abilities you can afford to design. Worse, a lot of currently-existing abilities would sit outside those limits. Cooldowns are definitely a blunt instrument and far less precise, but they allow us to retain most of our abilities largely unchanged.

To be realistic for a moment - I don't expect any of these things to happen. I don't think DE consider their energy system to be an issue. They seem all too happy to let us drown ourselves in energy recovery and just pretend that energy doesn't exist. I'm in no danger of taking away anyone's toys. However, I feel that the way we end up spamming abilities in Warframe quite often crosses over into reductive gameplay. I believe that fewer ability casts per mission, but with more impact per ability would be a better point of balance and a good way to keep me away over longer, more monotonous mission types.

 

34 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I feel like Energy being ammo for abilities is incorrect just because DE is reluctant to just build in a reliable way of getting Energy.  Imagine if you legit had to use a specific Focus school, Legendary Arcane and Sacrifice a Mod Slot just so you can use your gun ? 

Quick edit, but this is exactly how I feel, and why I don't think any of what we say here will ultimately matter. For whatever reason, DE are reluctant to give people reliable access to energy recovery, yet are also perfectly fine with letting high-level players entirely disregard the energy system. The result is a miserable experience for new players which is also entirely unrepresentative of how the actual game plays. Preparation should never have been a mod. It should be status quo. I can see no reason to not start with full energy in this game. To me, this is another piece of evidence that nobody at DE actually cares to balance energy. As long as "most people" don't infinite energy, they'll keep going through the motions of pretending there's an energy system to balance in Warframe.

[selig_fay]

Since we're talking about it, I think that abilities, even if they are Exalted modes, should not replace normal weapons. Yes, this might work for Revenant 4, because we won't be using it all the time, but for Exalted blade, I think this ability would be better if it just gave waves to any melee. If it is to be a separate weapon, it must be powerful and costly. But exalted modes and spam abilities should not limit normal weapons. If one-handed spells do not interrupt shooting, then people will use it even if it is not powerful, but still useful.

[quxier]

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But wouldn't that be a reason to just drop out of sprint, then? The entire purpose to sprinting is to go faster, so if you don't want to go faster for fear of becoming less precise... what's the point?

You mean holding a key to sprint and "not holding" to "walk"? That could work... with slow speed.

 You sprint with speed X - you can change position with the precision of 1m. Now You sprint with 10X and you get precision of 12m.
Let's say you sprint from A to B. Those 2 points are 4 meters apart.  With the speed X you you will be at B +/- 1m. With the speed 10X you will be at B +/- 12m.

With Gauss' sprint ability you know exactly (except dashing to walls etc) where you go. So you may even raise speed and still able to know where you will be. It's like dashing to right/left in other games.

[LSG501]

6 hours ago, headsoup said:

Are you in early game (star chart progress)?

I have a second account that is mr3 or mr4 and yes it is fine there too without zenurik or 'energy mods'... now admittedly I'm not a newbie with no knowledge of the game but I don't have access to any of the mods I do on my main account.

As I said earlier, there is more issue with getting health orbs and regenerating health after earth than there is energy imo for new players.

 

[taiiat]

all of this is stilllllllllllllllllllll not the subject of the Thread. maybe y'all should go back and read the Thread(you should know who you are) to know what the subject matter is here.
the subject is New Player Experience and newbies.

 

 

3 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Or it could be Valkyr 1. Is this a bad ability? No, I just won't use it because the energy is valuable, even if it costs 5 energy. 

Ok. Then why not make a passive recovery, but add things that will still encourage active gameplay and not keep you waiting?

I've never understood why people talk about it as something special. 

 

And, I also do not mind if many mobs would be able to suck our energy so that we need to kill them. But give us the opportunity to recover from their effects passively, without resorting to any crutches.

i'll use Ripline, because it costs a fairly small amount of Energy and i'm using it to increase my Parkour speed. but i don't use my Abilities only unmodded after all. i do have Efficiency and that lets me use Ripline for an incidental cost.

because i don't see any benefit to the game as a game to have stuff fall from the sky for free. i'm not interested in the game giving me handouts, i'm interested in doing stuff. anything that incentivizes otherwise, what good does it do me.

anything i seek to add to the game is something that gives me more things to do in Gameplay. i couldn't tell you what the viewpoint for everyone else is, but i seek what i seek to find ways to add stuff to the game to make it more of a game, as a solution to problems, as a first pick. and leaving stuff falling from the sky as a last resort.
having the Energy just fall from the sky teaches the New Player to ignore their Energy Bar and just continue with the Mission - and when they desire to use an Ability based on the situation warranting and pressing the Button, they'll probably have the Energy even with ignoring the entire system. so they tuned out an entire part of the game and it was the same as if they had actually paid attention. no bueno.

 

being able to recover some Energy from these Enemies in some way (that is more than "just Kill it" because you wouldn't even notice that) would be helpful too, but that doesn't excuse that Energy Draining Enemies among most Enemies in general have really bad telegraphs. many of them lag the telegraph behind the actual attack so that the punishment happens before they even animated.

2 hours ago, headsoup said:

Posting vague 'I'm so great' anecdotes doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

(to be fair, is your opinion via this Thread not the opposite of the same? an anecdote of why things should or should not be a certain way? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

We just dont have any to spare because apparently we still have to sacrifice slots for obvious things like Survivability. 

nonsense. 'everyone else' can fit EHP, Power/Strength/Range, some Efficiency, and sometimes Augments, all at the same time. while hitting any breakpoints they may seek to hit.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Okay let me go through all these Options one by one and show you exactly why people grumble about these things.

1) Energizing Dash - Locks you into a specific Focus School.

2) Arcane Energize - Not the worst thing in the world but its Double RNG (first you need to Roll for the Orbs and then Roll for the arcane to Proc)... and i honestly would rather be using Arcane Consequence/Agility... they should just nerf this Arcane.... again 
3) Equilibrium - Sacrifices a Mod Slod, and Relies on RNG orbs.
4) Rage/Hunter Adrenaline - I play Booben and Ivara, Enough Said ?

5) Entropy/Blight Syndicate Proc - Forces you to use 10 Very Specific weapons, Half of them Are rubbish....not only that but you actually have have the weapon in your hands.... you cant just leave it on your back like you can with The Telos Boltace for its Passive. 

6) Augments/Abilities - Most of them are RNG and because the Value of the Orb stays at 25 Energy it winds up being rubbish anyway... 

7) Energy Restores - Extremely Expensive to craft.... Im MR 26 and I went from 3 Million Credits to 50K Credits because of Crafting these things... had i not run out of Credits then My Polymer Bundles would have been next...

Exodia Might - Never used it.... also Im not giving up my Exodia Contagion under any circumstances... and thats if i decide to use a Zaw to begin with.... i prefer The Telos Boltace (Again, only for its Passive)

Zenurik is the Focus School of choice either way. the only other relevant pick currently is Naramon, and that's only if you're using Melee very heavily in the Mission. the rest are simply not relevant in average Gameplay. they do not offer you anything that makes a markable difference.

Mods/Arcanes are a choice you spec towards. that's literally the point of a Slottable thing, you pick what you want in it. Ivara literally has a l00t Ability. if your Duration isn't awful and you have decent Range to boot, you can Scan Enemies very quickly with Prowl and you'll get all sorts of Mission resources.
also Booben has sufficient Health based EHP to use Rage if you want to.
as it is Energize is mostly for letting you sacrifice an Arcane Slot to use negative Efficiency.

of the 6 Syndicate Weapons that can offer Energy, yes two of them are pretty meh.

• Rakta Ballistica still being weird Statswise with only Prime really 'fixing' the Weapon (does still Kill stuff mostly fine though).
• and Synoid Simulor got somewhat butchered the last time they changed it, and made it into a glorified beep boop version of a Penta essentially. why is beyond me, it was already a great Weapon beforehand and just needed some very slight Stat increases. but now it's basically a reskinned Penta.
• Synoid Heliocor is weaker than the normal version sure, though in actual Damage to Enemies it'll still do fine. this one is pretty neutral.

the rest of those Energy Syndicate Weapons are all good performing Weapons. it's also somewehat of a plus that you have to hold the Syndicate Weapon to get the Energy Pulse - you can trigger it when you need it, or atleast reduce how often it gets wasted, so that when you need it you can get it instead of it being on Cooldown because it popped while you were full.

Energy Orbs aren't bad because they have a known value. producing a lot more Energy Orbs is still producing a lot more Energy Orbs.

i don't know how you spent all your Credits on Pizzas, the slightly expensive part of them is the Poly, the rest of the Resources are totally trivial. sounds like you've been crutching on them in every Mission every time you Cast an Ability, when that is far from necessary.

Exodia Might is alright, if you're into that sort of thing.
though if you're so keen on Energy, Contagion doesn't offer you anything unless you're fighting Bosses. otherwise what are you going to shoot the bomb at, all of the Enemies you already Killed? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Well yes... then i can finally have a durable Warframe with an Effective Kit.... oh god... the Horror !! 😞

if your Warframes are all apparently as you say, have useless Abilities and have no EHP, that's a PEBKAS problem.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Seriously though Modding is boring especially since content released these days start either locking you into specific builds or worse.... into a few selection of viable Warframes....

Modding is only boring if you rely on other people to tell you how and what to think, rather than making decisions for yourself.
the only Missions i can think of that create desires for certain Warframes over others are Gamemodes that require you to defend Health based Objectives - though even then these things tend to Level Scale to such a point that it's mostly trivial to defend it for one or two Rotations, or until the end of the Mission.
whichever Missions you're saying are impossible to do without something you copy paste from some guide, i probably play that Mission with Saryn. because i play almost everything with Saryn unless i decide that i want to play another Warframe(which is usually either for memes or boost farming).
Saryn is like 2/3 of all of my Mission time since 2013 for reason though, because i generally play Saryn for whichever Mission it is.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

I mean if the Ability just makes you happy and is fun to you literally 100% of the time.... would that be such a bad thing ?

ofcourse it would be. the game is designed around mixing all of your tools, not using one and discarding the rest. but we have enough Equipment choices that Players that insist on brute forcing choosing one tool and discarding all of their others, can force it to do so if they so spec towards it. but it comes at a cost.

 

1 hour ago, GREF_TM said:

You're joking, right?

the math is pretty simple. it's a gigantic amount of extra Ammo, and if you're looking for more Ammo, that's a lot of extra Ammo.
it's not like most of the Auras are very relevant nowadays - Growing Power can be fun and is decent, and that's starting to reach the edge of "definitely pretty good in all situations" types of Auras.
you're probably going to say Corrosive Projection, but this isn't 2014, you're Killing those Enemies just fine without it. but, it is still a decent Damage increase vs Armored Enemies, and when facing very high Level Enemies, if you stack 2-3 of them it may prove quite useful, especially if you have no other ways to combat Armor (whether that be weakening it or using Damage Types that are strong vs is).
so, that leaves plenty of potential space for choosing an Ammo Aura, if you want Ammo so greatly.

 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

i tried Modding Rhino for something other than Iron Skin.... Rhinos Abilities are very very costly....

 

i use Efficiency Mods, i do fine. and the only reason i use Rhino is to buff others with Roar while i semi-leech for boost farming. i.e. pretty high Strength and Efficiency ends up being so-so since Blind Rage is taking away too.
but the Abilities will last for numerous Minutes at a time, which is a lot of time for Enemies to die. if hardly any Enemies are dying in that time frame, Casting those Abilities wasn't important, it would seem.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

mostly because i've accepted that Bows just dont compare to other weapons.... you dont get to deal more damage for using a bow despite how clunky they are.... Shotguns are just better and have more Ammo to boot.

Shotguns will spray the crowd of low-zero HP Enemies we generally face quite well, and definitely faster than a Bow, yes.
the Bow definitely deals more Damage per Shot, not really a contest by virtue of Accuracy(the Bow will easily hit Weakpoint Crits, the Shotgun will be a mixture of some missing Weakpoints and hitting the Body as well as just missing), but just like with Sniper Rifles - this sort of precise Damage is simply not needed for anything in 99% of the game.

but that's how it's been since uh.... late 2015 or atleast 2016. Stats high enough to spray in the general direction of Enemies and they will die, since any particular Enemy generally dies to one or two shots from an Assault Rifle. maybe a short Burst for Heavies.

[selig_fay]

Firstly,

7 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i'll use Ripline, because it costs a fairly small amount of Energy and i'm using it to increase my Parkour speed. but i don't use my Abilities only unmodded after all. i do have Efficiency and that lets me use Ripline for an incidental cost.

because i don't see any benefit to the game as a game to have stuff fall from the sky for free. i'm not interested in the game giving me handouts, i'm interested in doing stuff. anything that incentivizes otherwise, what good does it do me.

I see that you are contradicting yourself. You say that energy should be difficult, but you use energy efficiency. Energy efficiency mods don't encourage active gameplay in any way, but you use it. Why don't you use "more things that give energy for active gameplay"? I don't blame you for anything, but I can see that your point of view may be distorted.

11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

anything 

i seek to add to the game is something that gives me more things to do in Gameplay. i couldn't tell you what the viewpoint for everyone else is, but i seek what i seek to find ways to add stuff to the game to make it more of a game, as a solution to problems, as a first pick. and leaving stuff falling from the sky as a last resort.

having the Energy just fall from the sky teaches the New Player to ignore their Energy Bar and just continue with the Mission - and when they desire to use an Ability based on the situation warranting and pressing the Button, they'll probably have the Energy even with ignoring the entire system. so they tuned out an entire part of the game and it was the same as if they had actually paid attention. no bueno.

Second, the new player doesn't learn anything right now, because either they get a big energy orbs drop, or they don't get anything that leaves them without abilities. And I think that energy management through regeneration will be better both to understand and to use. And novices in principle should not face difficulties at the beginning of the game, because the difficulties should begin at the end. Now we get the opposite result. I mean, big players use the right frames with infinite energy builds for the sake of the mission passing itself. Energy regeneration can solve both of these problems.

Third, I haven't heard a counterargument about what things are meta now and don't act almost passively to restore your energy. Literally, arcane energizer, equilibrium, zenuric, and rage all act passively. And if you look, I suggest that all of these things affect passive energy regeneration until you use your abilities, which is actually more gameplay than it is now, because you control your resource rather than mindlessly spamming abilities. I also suggested removing energy efficiency and nerf flow so that the energy cap is a problem and if you don't do energy management correctly - it can leave you without the ability you need right now. As I said, you get your energy easily, but you are also easily left without it.

31 minutes ago, taiiat said:

being able to recover some Energy from these Enemies in some way (that is more than "just Kill it" because you wouldn't even notice that) would be helpful too, but that doesn't excuse that Energy Draining Enemies among most Enemies in general have really bad telegraphs. many of them lag the telegraph behind the actual attack so that the punishment happens before they even animated.

We're not talking about enemies right now. But even so, you literally can't come up with anything interesting that fits different playstyles, yet 1 playstyle didn't get more energized more easily than the other. It's hard to balance. You don't want to lock me in your playstyle that you have in your head right now, do you? This should be realized through abilities, not through energy. 

On the other hand, linking energy to killing enemies is something that will limit game design and you will never be able to make a boss without minions, because otherwise players will lose energy. I really don't see a problem with energy regeneration. It's literally more of a gaming experience than the almost passive stuff we have now.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

7) Energy Restores - Extremely Expensive to craft.... Im MR 26 and I went from 3 Million Credits to 50K Credits because of Crafting these things... had i not run out of Credits then My Polymer Bundles would have been next...

I like to put some pizza at the start, and sometimes in the middle but that many pizza? I wonder where you need that many pizzas. From my usage (MR 20 something) I can easily make it. And I need maybe 20-30 at most.

[Lutesque]

43 minutes ago, taiiat said:

nonsense. 'everyone else' can fit EHP, Power/Strength/Range, some Efficiency, and sometimes Augments, all at the same time. while hitting any breakpoints they may seek to hit.

For your Build maybe...

Not for mine.... and literally only talking about just 2 Warframes.... 

I have Umbral Booben and i cant fit all my survivability mods and still have decent range on my Bastill.... i have to give up Umbral just to get 200% Range.... but then my Bastille just winds up holding one less enemy than standard.

49 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Zenurik is the Focus School of choice either way. the only other relevant pick currently is Naramon, and that's only if you're using Melee very heavily in the Mission. the rest are simply not relevant in average Gameplay. they do not offer you anything that makes a markable difference.

As someone who uses Pets alot i would like to pick Vazarin just so i dont die while resurrecting them the first four times...

53 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Mods/Arcanes are a choice you spec towards. that's literally the point of a Slottable thing, you pick what you want in it. Ivara literally has a l00t Ability. if your Duration isn't awful and you have decent Range to boot, you can Scan Enemies very quickly with Prowl and you'll get all sorts of Mission resources.

And move like a Snail... Boring... 

54 minutes ago, taiiat said:

also Booben has sufficient Health based EHP to use Rage if you want to.

No he doesnt...

For three reasons...

1) Nothing in his Kit allows him to recover Lost health like Oberon or Inaros..

2) He simply doesnt have the Slots to spare, Bastille requires everysingle not dedicated to survivability for itself....

3) He just doesnt have the Resistances for it... Booben is way too squishy.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

of the 6 Syndicate Weapons that can offer Energy, yes two of them are pretty meh.

 

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

•  
• Synoid Heliocor is weaker than the normal version sure, though in actual Damage to Enemies it'll still do fine. this one is pretty neutral

The Synoid Heliocor doesnt have Entropy....

Infact none of the Syndicate Melee weapons have the Syndicate effect that the Primaries and Secondaries do... 

You have to use the Melee Augments on the non-Syndicate Weapons to get the Proc... Entropy Flight in the Klestral or Gleaming Blight on the Rakta Dark Dagger....

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the rest of those Energy Syndicate Weapons are all good performing Weapons

They are okay.... they function...

They will eventually kill Corrupted Heavy Gunners but i wouldnt call them good performing weapons... not even the Rakta Cernos.... sure out of all the Bows it Feels the best but because its a Bow it just gets out performed by everything else in my aresenal...

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

it's also somewehat of a plus that you have to hold the Syndicate Weapon to get the Energy Pulse - you can trigger it when you need it, or atleast reduce how often it gets wasted, so that when you need it you can get it instead of it being on Cooldown because it popped while you were full.

Nope.... I've often found that even if i am Full i want the Syndicate Proc anyway... they always increase the maximum cap of whatever stat they increase so even if you are full you'l want it anyways.

Atleast I do.....

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Energy Orbs aren't bad because they have a known value. producing a lot more Energy Orbs is still producing a lot more Energy Orbs.

But they dont have a Known Occurrence of Dropping... 

Considering that this determines whether i can or cant use my Warframe for more thsn just gun holder than yes... i say its bad.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

 

i don't know how you spent all your Credits on Pizzas, the slightly expensive part of them is the Poly, the rest of the Resources are totally trivial. sounds like you've been crutching on them in every Mission every time you Cast an Ability, when that is far from necessary.

Well you have a track recorded of getting Energy Orbs more than everyone else apparently and thats good for you...

If not and you're not using Zenurik then its absolutely Necessary.... those Pizzas are literally the only Source of Energy ive had in some missions... especially if i turn a blind corner and an Ancient Disruptor just Hooks me for 300 Energy before i have a chance to React.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Exodia Might is alright, if you're into that sort of thing.
though if you're so keen on Energy, Contagion doesn't offer you anything unless you're fighting Bosses. otherwise what are you going to shoot the bomb at, all of the Enemies you already Killed? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Either way... I dont have it yet.... Still nothing beats Contagion. 

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

If your Warframes are all apparently as you say, have useless Abilities and have no EHP, that's a PEBKAS problem

I dont know who that is or why you're telling me about his/her problems.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Modding is only boring if you rely on other people to tell you how and what to think, rather than making decisions for yourself.

No its just boring... especially when it comes to weapons since we never ever change its functionality... its always just changing Damage Types.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the only Missions i can think of that create desires for certain Warframes over others are Gamemodes that require you to defend Health based Objectives - though even then these things tend to Level Scale to such a point that it's mostly trivial to defend it for one or two Rotations, or until the end of the Mission.
whichever Missions you're saying are impossible to do without something you copy paste from some guide, i probably play that Mission with Saryn. because i play almost everything with Saryn unless i decide that i want to play another Warframe(which is usually either for memes or boost farming).
Saryn is like 2/3 of all of my Mission time since 2013 for reason though, because i generally play Saryn for whichever Mission it is.

Well thats good For Saryn since defense missions arent actually about defending anything... its just Stationary Exterminate with the added bonus of Baby Sitting....

Alot of Content has you killing things so Naturally Saryn is going to fair better in those situation more than every other Warframe.

This isnt the case for Booben and Ivara.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

ofcourse it would be. the game is designed around mixing all of your tools, not using one and discarding the rest. but we have enough Equipment choices that Players that insist on brute forcing choosing one tool and discarding all of their others, can force it to do so if they so spec towards it. but it comes at a cost.

Again... that doesnt explain why its bad other than DE has a problem with the way players choose to have fun. If one ability gives you more joy than all the others i say Go HAM on it.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

I use Efficiency Mods, i do fine. and the only reason i use Rhino is to buff others with Roar while i semi-leech for boost farming. i.e. pretty high Strength and Efficiency ends up being so-so since Blind Rage is taking away too.

I was talking about Stomp and Charge...

And even with Efficiency i cant sustain these Abilities.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

but the Abilities will last for numerous Minutes at a time, which is a lot of time for Enemies to die. if hardly any Enemies are dying in that time frame, Casting those Abilities wasn't important, it would seem.

Oh yes they will die absolutely... oh whats this ? You complete an entire wave of defense only to get one energy orb.... Better hope that Energize Procs.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Shotguns will spray the crowd of low-zero HP Enemies we generally face quite well, and definitely faster than a Bow, yes.
the Bow definitely deals more Damage per Shot, not really a contest by virtue of Accuracy(the Bow will easily hit Weakpoint Crits, the Shotgun will be a mixture of some missing Weakpoints and hitting the Body as well as just missing), but just like with Sniper Rifles - this sort of precise Damage is simply not needed for anything in 99% of the game.

I have no issue getting Specific Shothuns to get all their pellets into the enemies heads.... 

A big part of this is because most Shotguns are hit scan while all bows have Projectile Travel Time with the Daikyu having the Fastest Arrows....

Also being a semi auto weapon Bows are to reliant on RNG where else the shotguns with their many pellets have atleast some chance at Proccing Hunter Munitions on every shot.

 

[Lutesque]

7 minutes ago, quxier said:

I like to put some pizza at the start, and sometimes in the middle but that many pizza? I wonder where you need that many pizzas. From my usage (MR 20 something) I can easily make it. And I need maybe 20-30 at most.

I also use that many ... lo and behold im out of Credits.... 

I think used about 50 during my last one hour Kuva Survival with Khora... that should give you some idea about how reliable those RNG Orbs are....

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Imagine if you legit had to use a specific Focus school, Legendary Arcane and Sacrifice a Mod Slot just so you can use your gun ?

I feel I do have to jump in on this one, specifically because the modding around guns has literally been that stagnant since Rainbow Builds were removed in the original Status/Damage update.

You may not have to use the equivalent of Energise and Zenurik, but what Rifle do you mod without Serration and Split Chamber? What Secondary do you use without Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent? What Shotgun do you use without (Primed) Point Blank and Hell's Chamber? I mean... these mods are truly mandatory on almost every single build.

And then you have the comparison to an Ability, because what gun do you know can, for example, grab every single enemy in range and draw them into a single point? What Gun can mark every single enemy in an expanding wave that ignores line of sight for double damage, a massive slow proc, and to explode on death? It's not even a comparison here.

To me, that only means that Abilities should be more heavily limited in their function to cast than guns should in their ability to be fired. Thus why, even though Guns (by and large) do not regen ammo and need pickups, neither are they capable of combining to nuke a room with one button press, or trivialise enemies, or any number of other things. Thus, yes, I feel you should need to use a Focus School, or a Legendary Arcane or maybe even sacrifice a Mod Slot.

Given that there are very few abilities in game that are truly terrible (there are some, like Zephyr's Hover) or an actual waste of energy to fire, and that the majority of abilities you will use will offer a function that a gun simply can't... Limiting abilities by making their casting have an 'ammo' type that doesn't regen unless you mod for it, and grind for the functions that allow limited regen, and grind for the items that allow better use of existing Orb drops, is actually a sound design choice.

Energy is ammo for abilities not in the direct comparison of saying 'this is how many shots you can fire off', but in the design philosophy of how DE is approaching them. It builds in and allows for some abilities to be spammed, some abilities to be more tactically deployed, and some abilities to need constant management to upkeep by making us rely on drops. We don't regen energy at any decent rate because that would, as other people in the thread have already pointed out, really be nothing more than a cool-down. And that's something DE have already tried and didn't want for the game.

[quxier]

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

23 minutes ago, quxier said:

 

I also use that many ... lo and behold im out of Credits.... 
I think used about 50 during my last one hour Kuva Survival with Khora... that should give you some idea about how reliable those RNG Orbs are....

But you still can get few hundreds of credits per index (or more). As for Polymer & Nano spores - I bet you can farm it but I'm not sure if it's something people do. Not just for polymer&nano

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You may not have to use the equivalent of Energise and Zenurik, but what Rifle do you mod without Serration and Split Chamber? What Secondary do you use without Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent? What Shotgun do you use without (Primed) Point Blank and Hell's Chamber? I mean... these mods are truly mandatory on almost every single build.

Those mods have nothing to do with Ammo...

Remember the context here is that Energy is just Ammo for Abilities...  but Ammo is only an issue for a few select weapons while Energy issues plagues alot of Warfranes.

4 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And then you have the comparison to an Ability, because what gun do you know can, for example, grab every single enemy in range and draw them into a single point? What Gun can mark every single enemy in an expanding wave that ignores line of sight for double damage, a massive slow proc, and to explode on death? It's not even a comparison here.

And thats why im not allowed to use My Abilities? Because they do what they are designed to do so now the developers need to cut off my energy supply to stop me from doing it ?

6 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

To me, that only means that Abilities should be more heavily limited in their function to cast than guns should in their ability to be fired. Thus why, even though Guns (by and large) do not regen ammo and need pickups, neither are they capable of combining to nuke a room with one button press, or trivialise enemies, or any number of other things. Thus, yes, I feel you should need to use a Focus School, or a Legendary Arcane or maybe even sacrifice a Mod Slot.

And thats great for the Nuking Warframes.... thats not so good for the other warframes that dont nuke but are subject to the same Energy problems anyway.

8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Given that there are very few abilities in game that are truly terrible (there are some, like Zephyr's Hover) or an actual waste of energy to fire, and that the majority of abilities you will use will offer a function that a gun simply can't... Limiting abilities by making their casting have an 'ammo' type that doesn't regen unless you mod for it, and grind for the functions that allow limited regen, and grind for the items that allow better use of existing Orb drops, is actually a sound design choice.

Unless if its not fun... then its just Bad design...

We are not Spreadsheets who operate on a balance of guns vs abilities. We are people, motivated by emotions and we do whatever makes us feel good. And im telling you right now that what we have now just doesnt feel good regardless of how well it functions.

Some peoole dont want to use their guns.... i say let them spam abilities all they want... if thats whats fun for them then does it matter ? 

13 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Energy is ammo for abilities not in the direct comparison of saying 'this is how many shots you can fire off', but in the design philosophy of how DE is approaching them. It builds in and allows for some abilities to be spammed, some abilities to be more tactically deployed, and some abilities to need constant management to upkeep by making us rely on drops. We don't regen energy at any decent rate because that would, as other people in the thread have already pointed out, really be nothing more than a cool-down. And that's something DE have already tried and didn't want for the game.

I just want to be able to use my Abilities more  consistently. Im sure alot of players do.... and i want this not in the form of a Band Aid but as an actual feature. Something both new players and old can rely on.

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

But you still can get few hundreds of credits per index (or more). As for Polymer & Nano spores - I bet you can farm it but I'm not sure if it's something people do. Not just for polymer&nano

Yeah Index is awful... yet another game that not only gimps your Abilities but also removes Vacuum and rurns every Warframe into To Tissue Paper.

 

[selig_fay]

12 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Energy is ammo for abilities not in the direct comparison of saying 'this is how many shots you can fire off', but in the design philosophy of how DE is approaching them. It builds in and allows for some abilities to be spammed, some abilities to be more tactically deployed, and some abilities to need constant management to upkeep by making us rely on drops. We don't regen energy at any decent rate because that would, as other people in the thread have already pointed out, really be nothing more than a cool-down. And that's something DE have already tried and didn't want for the game.

Energy is mana. Ammo is ammo. Your energy can't run out in the warframe store and you don't need to recharge it. At the same time, you reload most types of weapons. Yes, bow ignores this, but you need to get the arrow out before you shoot. And we also have battery mechanics that provide us with infinite ammo, but not infinite store.

 

[selig_fay]

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah Index is awful... yet another game that not only gimps your Abilities but also removes Vacuum and rurns every Warframe into To Tissue Paper.

Well, the vacuum is not a problem if you play as Khora...