The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Reelix said:

Through the pages of this thread I have seen people complain that DE are going back on their word by reducing the MR requirement from 15 to 8 when they themselves said that it was designed for experienced players.  
  
Here's a newsflash in case anyone has missed the past.... few hundred streams - To them, 8 IS an experienced player.  
  
To DE, MR8 IS your high-end player. Their stats say the majority stop at 12, so given that limitation of "MR12 is a god-tier Warframe player", they have safely deduced that MR8 is "experienced", so in their eyes - Yes - They designed the system for experienced (MR8) Warframe players.

They should be striving to expand where the end game player level is, not keeping it down below MR 10.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

Just now, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

Yup, couldn't agree more. If they would've put Charge instead of Roar this outrage wouldn't have happened in the first place and they wouldn't be wasting their time right now trying to find a value/balance for an impossible to balance ability. Unless you replace it, Roar will always be at the top of the system even if they cap it at base strength.

How come not a single person working on the list thought "Maybe giving Roar to everyone isn't a good idea..." Just outright replace it with Charge.

People would have caused a stink if they just gave us junk abilities anyway. Charge is worthless outside of Rhino's Ironclad charge builds. 

[brilhantine]

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

 

Bad abilities still bad abilities,

this nerf only made strong skills less strong, but still these overlap any other, unless it is a nerf that will make it extremely short duration or a very small buff, but that way the system breaks before it even arrives, the skills could come with some extra effect causing all skills become unique and usable for example, saryn's molt was an invocation with additional corrosive damage and would explode when the duration was over, or the vauban's tesla nervos would stay around the character  shock repelling anyone who enters the action range with an activation delay between hits, or the mirage eclipse got weaker, but could switch between day and night at any time, something like that.

[iSiawPrime]

Reminder that if they could “add rules”(nerfs) before the system is even live what can we expect after it?.

How many abilities will be having new “rules” because X people is using them?

 

[(PSN)thegarada]

7 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I like how you think MR 15 is high MR.

I hit that in less than a month when I was new, and it's multiple times over easier now than it was before due to the greater availability of good weapons, fast leveling and resources.

If anything, the only redeeming factor it has is that new-ish players wont be stuck with a gimped frame when they inevitably go to try it out. The only redeeming factor the system has, is its lack of permanence. That says more about this than anything I could.

Helminth will be more forgotten than anything short of maybe Lunaro in a year's time.

First, how is this an issue?

Second, not everyone enjoys grinding MR. I have ~1,400 hours and only MR 16. I do not enjoy buying junk weapons and spend 20-30 minutes in Hyrdon or Sanctuary to level them. It neither fun nor challenging. 

Lastly, do you know the percentage of active players above MR 15? Very small. What would be the point of creating a system that tiny fraction of your player base can use?

And yes, in a year (more like a week for active players), everyone will have access to the system. That is the point... 

[Opyt]

3 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

The majority of those people with disposable income also don't give a toss about these nerfs either. Like it or not, Whales far outweigh the "veterans" that are getting all butthurt in this thread.

So you didn't exactly disprove me. Nice attempt though. :^)

Except I'm one of those potential "whales" that isn't giving DE a dime until they fix objective healing.🤦‍♂️

[_Eclips3_]

Just here to thank you for ruining the hype for the new helminth system and locking it behind a syndicate grind wall.

Shame because you guys lost quite a lot of people who were planning to return (Based off youtube comment sections on multiple videos). It not only impacts the players fun but the game it self.

Have a nice day.

[(PSN)Hadrien2111]

il y a 11 minutes, Klaeljanu a dit :

To be fair, that is the only potentially useful thing I can think of for it.  The other would be cheesing additional protection out of Nezha and Rhino's shields, but it'd be idiotic to replace any of the existing abilities on those frames for that single use case.

Idk honestly Nezha first ability is kinda useless to me. He's my favourite warframe but I just don't use his first very often at all. So I was thinking that some shields on him would be interesting, so I was planning on using Harrow's condemn.

[Arniox]

47 minutes ago, Hengeyokai said:

Nice. I was on the edge of coming back to Warframe. You really got me fooled for a minute there DE. I ALMOST thought Warframe could be fun. But hey you saved me the money I would've invested in your game sooner or later by rendering the one interesting system that was coming with Heart of Deimos completely useless. Now I can spend that money on games that are actually fun. Thanks DE. Looking forward to you getting bought out by Tencent. Tencent at least knows how to milk people for their money with a smile. Not with abuse like what you're doing to your community right now.

Nice. 

[Meatuchu]

Are you super sure you couldn't have stuck to your guns and kept the exciting parts of this system along with the high MR requirement??? Like super duper sure? I kinda liked the exclusivity and cool stuff thanks.

[AnhurShu]

14 minutes ago, Arniox said:

Too be completely fair, before we knew the abilities that we would get, eveyone was guessing we could get charge for rhino or slight of hand for Mirage or etc. And people where still very much hyped. 

Nerfing these specific abilities doesn't make the Helminth system less worth while. 

I don't care too much about the nerfed abilties that much anyways. Only slightly sad about warcry being nerfed cause I was excited for that and genuinely didn't imagine DE would give such a powerful ability from valkyre. 

I'm more pissed at the lowering of mastery rank requirement. That's my only big greviance.

The problem is they have announced them now, so nerfing them now (instead of buffing/replacing the less viable abilities) DOES make the system less worthwhile. They aren't giving us other options, they're not saying, "Hey we realized no one is going to use Decoy, so we're changing it", they're just making several of the actually viable abilities worse.  

I do agree with being angry about the lowered MR requirement.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

Just now, Opyt said:

Except I'm one of those potential "whales" that isn't giving DE a dime until they fix objective healing.🤦‍♂️

One free thinker in a sea of mindless whales. Not going to make a difference. 

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

First, how is this an issue?

Second, not everyone enjoys grinding MR. I have ~1,400 hours and only MR 16. I do not enjoy buying junk weapons and spend 20-30 minutes in Hyrdon or Sanctuary to level them. 

Lastly, do you know the percentage of active players above MR 15? Very small. What would be the point of creating a system that tiny fraction of your player base can use?

And yes, in a year (more like a week for active players), everyone will have access to the system. That is the point... 

You're really not helping your case.

Almost everything here exposes problems with the game I'm very aware of.

[ADDgamer45]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hadrien2111 said:

Idk honestly Nezha first ability is kinda useless to me. He's my favourite warframe but I just don't use his first very often at all. So I was thinking that some shields on him would be interesting, so I was planning on using Harrow's condemn.

It's because nezha's 2 turns off nezha's 1. It forces you not to use it.

[Shadedraxe]

Is DE ever going to rework all of the garbage abilities in this game? Would have made it more difficult for players to want to replace abilities if poop like soul punch and spectral scream didn’t exist.

I think THAT should have been the balancing factor for this system, but for years we let poop abilities slide because the rest of their kit could pick up their slack. Regardless of these upcoming nerfs, people are still going to replace grendal’s 3, Loki’s decoy or switch teleport, soul punch, spectral scream, ect.

there are too many frames with one or two abilities that never see any use. I was happy to finally see a buff to well of life, and air burst got a small buff too, and banish got a bit of a QoL change... but is that it? Why did DE have to stop there. Decoy is still hot trash, and pull isn’t that great either.

Here’s the problem with this system. There are too many frames like Chroma who are only going to strongly benefit from gaining another warframe ability. He has 2 abilities that are almost utterly useless. No ones going to give any thoughts about giving them up.

meanwhile, if I wanted to put roar on Oberon, I’d either be giving up his eidolon damage boosting ability, his status immunity and armor synergy trigger, his heal that also creates the armor synergy, Or his armor stripping capability. I’d be giving something up to put roar in.

or how about rhino? He’s a great all rounder. We all thought about putting defy on rhino for that armor boost to make him even tankier... but it’s going to require giving something up. You don’t want to give up charge because of the armor boost that can stack with defy for iron skin. Iron skin needs to stay, it’s the whole reason you want to put defy on rhino in the first place.  Roar is rhino’s damage buff, is it worth losing for a huge armor buffing ability? Well then there’s his ult, if you get rid of that, good luck defending an objective or creating any breathing room without your godly cc. No matter what you choose to give up, you are going to be losing something for your gains.

We need more tough decisions with this system.

and honestly I don’t see myself replacing anything on Oberon, Rhino, octavia, gauss, revenant, nidus and any other frames that actually make use of their whole kit with an ability of much lesser value like decoy.

Do you see the problem DE?

all warframes need to be designed with all 4 abilities having some kind of value to them. Making replacing them that much harder of a choice. No matter what you choose to replace, you will still feel like you’re losing something. Obviously not all abilities on a frame can be of equal value, but they have to all be more valuable than “worthless” (like half of chroma’s kit)

all subsumed abilities need to be worth consideration. Maybe not to all frames, because many of them play very differently from one another. But as it currently is, an ability like Decoy is never going to compete with roar, no matter how much you nerf roar. Not one frame wants Decoy in their kit, not even Loki.

 

[(XBOX)DarknessZeref]

Just now, (PS4)thegarada said:

 Please tell me more.

Similar to the lich system, this can be disastrous for a new player that isn't prepared for it.

You'd sooner quit Warframe having to deal with a Rank 5 lich with no requiem mods at MR 7 having had no clue the weight of that single parazon stab nor the headache it would cause for your progression. There's an existential dread that comes along with Warframe's lack of clear instructions. 

Such is the case with Helminth. New players lack the experience to splice powers to their benefit, they have far more opportunities for leverage this system to their detriment and the difference maker is experience. If you give a 40 year old a Ferrari they'll have a good time. If you give a 14 year old a Ferrari they'll crash it. 

[Opyt]

Just now, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

One free thinker in a sea of mindless whales. Not going to make a difference. 

 

Yeah, that's what I figure too, but there's always that chance for hope I guess.

[iSiawPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Lastly, do you know the percentage of active players above MR 15? Very small. What would be the point of creating a system that tiny fraction of your player base can use?

The point was to give players a reason to get a higher MR. What was the reason? Stronger abilities, Powerful Synergies, Hybrid Builds, etc.

With the nerfs before the system is live we can expect more nerfs to come after.

[kalad2]

as a Valkyr main, I approve of most of these nerfs, assuming they're not too intensive(have them perform at, say, 3/4s the capacity of the original frame)

[Opyt]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hadrien2111 said:

Idk honestly Nezha first ability is kinda useless to me. He's my favourite warframe but I just don't use his first very often at all. So I was thinking that some shields on him would be interesting, so I was planning on using Harrow's condemn.

On the bright side it'll be really funny on Gauss.  Fire trails + movespeed buff on the sanic frame.

[smashedwookie]

As someone who decided to return to the game in april after not playing it since forever, and went from mastery 3-4 (iirc) to mastery 22 since, i find the change in MR requirement alarming.

So much of the game opens up at the same time around MR8 with nothing really telling us what would be help us best to work on first. Now you are adding another system to that list. It looked fine at MR15 with more resource and experience, but at MR8 will lead to confusion and people complaining about its cost.

[9Drade]

5 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

People would have caused a stink if they just gave us junk abilities anyway. Charge is worthless outside of Rhino's Ironclad charge builds. 

Then buff it like they said they were going to do. Give us a reason to use it.

[RomJC]

You should have choose other abilities instead of nerf, also you say you will buff other abilities to give not just nerf.

 

[(PSN)thegarada]

Just now, XaoGarrent said:

You're really not helping your case.

Almost everything here exposes problems with the game I'm very aware of.

What is the case? All you are saying is you spent so much time grinding boring crap and other people who did not grind as much as you should not have access to system. Waaaa! How is someone else having access to the system, impacts you?!

I get the ability nerf issue. The MR is nothing more than crybaby complaints. DE should not be following cry babies.

[Hawk197]

8 minutes ago, Arniox said:

Too be completely fair, before we knew the abilities that we would get, eveyone was guessing we could get charge for rhino or slight of hand for Mirage or etc. And people where still very much hyped. 

Nerfing these specific abilities doesn't make the Helminth system less worth while. 

I don't care too much about the nerfed abilties that much anyways. Only slightly sad about warcry being nerfed cause I was excited for that and genuinely didn't imagine DE would give such a powerful ability from valkyre. 

I'm more pissed at the lowering of mastery rank requirement. That's my only big greviance.

Players don't need Helminth. If I even use a single brain cell, I can easily clear a 60+ minute Survival run. Having these powerful abilities didn't make us not die if we weren't already not dying, it opened up more possibilities. Nerfing these abilities doesn't make the other garbage ones any more appetizing. It's not like I was sitting here, thinking to myself "Boy, I would love to use Decoy, but Defy is just so much stronger. If only Defy was 5% weaker, I could actually consider using Decoy!". I'm not less inclined to use Defy and more inclined to use Decoy, Defy is such a powerful ability that any tanker would naturally use this over Decoy regardless if Defy was nerfed by 5% or 95%. There is a reason there's a certain meme was created.

 

 

All my fellow vets should remember these dark days. DE needs to buff other abilities, or change how they act once they become subsumed.