The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[SiliconHydra]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Hadrien2111 said:

Not so sure to be honest, I mean if they use the same testing team we might just be getting the same crappy nerfs and Sht like we just got...

Don’t get me wrong, I agree things are not ideal testing wise. I just think we may be overreacting without knowing the specifics of the nerfs, especially since we know they are still working out the details and have said as much.

We got time. Hopefully DE sees the enormous response of this thread and at least elaborates with numbers soon. 
 

 

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

I wonder where all those saying MR8 is too low, was for the first 70 pages of this thread hmm. When players were demanding the DE low the requirement from MR15.

[j0rmundgandr]

These update on helminth workshop is giving me a new insight though. When you cant polish a turd you go scratch the gold 

We sure know that the turd will be MORE expensive as the gold, AM I RIGHT ?

[Toppien]

just when i thought they couldnt possibly ruin this, they actually did, they did it with eidolons, they did it with orbs, good job DE good to know you still take into account random people on twitter, like when that time with the universal tokens

[SnapDragon8k]

For the Devs:
Would it be better to make the other abilities more appealing to player choice rather than reduce the six "nerfed" abilities? Make the choice harder for players than to take the top 6 choices and make them not as effective?

[RenzorTheRed]

On 2020-08-12 at 11:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

======================

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

That’s all for now!

 

This is a BAD idea. I hope you listen to the community's immediate backlash. Of course some abilities are going to be more popular than others. The solution to make the less popular ones more popular is not to nerf the popular ones. Nerfing the good stuff doesn't bring up the bad stuff. It just makes everything worse.

There are many new videos today rationally explaining this and possible solutions; Brozime, etc. Might want to give them a listen.

 

 

[9Drade]

9 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

What I think DE is shooting for is to give people some reason to use the middle 31.

Why not buff some of those abilities to make them more compelling? Ya know, like they said they were going to on the stream. They simply should not have chosen roar/eclipse/warcry. Nerfing larva cause why would anyone bring Nidus anymore? Defy...already has a cap? Lazy fixes.

[ADDgamer45]

1 minute ago, ChossetteDivine said:

I can assure that, if the abilites on the list don't change, and aren't buffed in some way, I still will most likely never use Loki's, Revenant's, Octavia's, Titania's, Frost's, Nyx's, Nova's, Nekros' and much other frame's abilites, I still prefer a nerfed ability over Gara's spectrorage.

Titania's grants duration based status immunity, disarm/disable, and an augment that gives back a ridiculous amount of energy (I have plans).

Nova's is duration based damage reduction not power strength so insanely good on duration frames.

spectorage is actually really good if you can gather enemies to that spot. Gara has no kit to do this.

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, RenzorTheRed said:

This is a BAD idea. I hope you listen to the community's immediate backlash. Of course some abilities are going to be more popular than others. The solution to make the less popular ones more popular is not to nerf the popular ones. Nerfing the good stuff doesn't bring up the bad stuff. It just makes everything worse.

There are many new videos today rationally explaining this and possible solutions; Brozime, etc. Might want to give them a listen. 

Dammit, you beat me to it!

 

Dx

[master_of_destiny]

Just now, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

I wonder where all those saying MR8 is too low, was for the first 70 pages of this thread hmm. When players were demanding the DE low the requirement from MR15.

We assumed that words meant something.  If they said it was locked to MR 15, it would have been.

 

Now, what precedent has be set?  Hema and Sibear come to mind.  It took months before there was a railjack economy rework.  To this date Excalibur Prime is locked away for anyone who isn't a founder.  There's a long history of DE saying things that might not make the community happy, and then doing them.  If this system is truly about power, then locking it to MR 15 was a good thing and reasonable.  Those complaining were assumed to have been ignored, like the vast majority of the community was ignored when we had issues with Vacuum (the mod).

 

Funny that.  DE cannot fix the old stuff, and gets away with an EA Star Wars Battlefront level statement regarding player accomplishment.  We think that they'll do the same with this system, but are immediately dismayed when they pull the functional non-locking at MR 8.  There shouldn't be surprise, because this means nothing matters in the system.  It can't be about power, so it stopped being about experienced players.  It's now a system to muck with balance for literally anyone capable of getting there on the star chart.

[thesyndrome]

3 minutes ago, 9Drade said:

Why not buff some of those abilities to make them more compelling? Ya know, like they said they were going to on the stream. They simply should not have chosen roar/eclipse/warcry. Nerfing larva cause why would anyone bring Nidus anymore? Defy...already has a cap? Lazy fixes.

the sad part is defy's armour cap was already pretty meager on wukong, so lowering it even more makes me wonder why I would use it at all

[ADDgamer45]

The abilities that got nerfed are also the ones that are just straight forward strong. There are tons of abilities on that list that nobody knows how they work or forget about that are also extremely strong like thermal sunder and spellbind.

[KurtisPrime]

Just now, CopperBezel said:

Which to my eye makes the outrage at this nerf (which was seemingly itself triggered by other outrage going the other way) completely misplaced. Roar could be +40% or it could be +20%. It could also be +20% on day one and be bumped to +40% a week later. All we know is the general principle that some abilities appear to be outperforming others to the point of making choices irrelevant, and so they're going to be in the system in weaker forms than we're used to. How useful they are in practice, we cannot know until we get to use them. 

 

But why give us these 'OP' ability to begin. If they are willing to give good ability than give them out, if they don't like fun then just give crap ability only. People were hype and they kill it.

1 minute ago, CopperBezel said:

Again, I'm not worried about the bottom 6 abilities or the top 6 abilities. What I think DE is shooting for is to give people some reason to use the middle 31. That's optimistic, obviously, but these changes are definitely going to shift the scales for some abilities. How much? Until we have numbers, we don't know!

People will try those 31 ability no matter what top or bottom. It new content. But killing the top ability will do nothing but replace the top 6 with a new one. The scale always exist no matter how they neft thing. Sure we don't have number but a neft is still a neft.

 

 

[sorcer3r]

Devs just need a reason to cry in the next podcast. 🙂

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

16 minutes ago, cha0sWyrM said:

de: hey guys ...were gonna give you a cool new system where you can swap out warframe abilities!

everyone: YAY!!! awesome!!! super!!!! that sounds great!!!! thank you so much!!!!

de: hold on....well were only going to give you SOME abilities...and you dont get to choose which ones...and they are all the kinda not great ones already.

everyone: oh...well, ok then, still...seems pretty cool. im sure we can make use of that....still thanks?

de: oh... one more thing.....were only going to give you some of the kinda not great abilities...AND were making those abilities not really work right.

everyone:

 

This speaks to me.

[Circle_of_Psi]

5 minutes ago, sorcer3r said:

Devs just need a reason to cry in the next podcast. 🙂

Uhm, that sounds a bit ominous..

[Ender140]

Nerfing the abilities wouldn't give more choices. It'll just make the choices before worst. Yes they nerfed Roar and warcry. What? You going to use soul punch because of that? Maybe pull? DE's logic has confused me so much. Like where is the improvement here? How is nerfing the abilities most likely to be picked going to make the other choices anymore viable? How does that give us a reason to use decoy? To use fireblast? Or Ice wave?

Maybe buff the weak ones in order to make them viable? Or give them an extra feature when being extracted. Maybe they won't need an augment? Like the skill can do what it's augment can do by default. Or something like that.

This only, 1 killed the hype, 2 makes the update look more like a grind fest without any worthwhile rewards yet again. I guess we can still use roar but why bother? You'll need to do even more grinding. If you want then I guess by all means. But something like roar needs a decent amount of strength in order to be worth using energy by default. Hope you enjoy your 45% damage multiplier or whatever DE decides it to be. Don't take it the wrong way. I'm still going to replace a large number of skill with roar if there was for some reason I was bothered to. Like I got really, really bored. This argument also applies in skills like eclipse and warcry.

[ADDgamer45]

If DE are reading the comments why don't they just ask? Nerfing isn't the answer so why not express the worry to the community with polls? There is no way they didn't come up with at least 3 solutions.

[fr4gb4ll]

22 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

have you ever concidered that new players (and MR8 is something even a 'only' half-ambitous player can get in a week or two) are already overwhelmed by all the contend they have access to? i had dozents of such new players in my clan who gave up on the game just because it was way too much what they could do while all of it looked (or so they thought) was important to do/have asap... sure, the game is meant to played at a pace everyone can choose for oneself, but games like warframe or path of exile that are active for years now accumulated so much contend (and also tend to not explain much of their importance or mechanic ingame), it looks to newbies like they have to climb mt. everest with their hands only in just a few hours... with the MR-system you have such a usefull way of bee-lining the contend in a way the experience of the game grows (ofc, that still won't silly power-leveler - but that's their own fault then). i understand the need of getting new players to the game with shiny new features, but many of those players you will likely lose again after a while when they either give up on the amount of things to do or because they rushed through the contend, never really delving into its depth. giving a player a reason to progress through the arsenal beyond the obvious reasons and thus keeping them longer seems a better ides imo.

and while at it, you should think of making prime versions of frames and weapons only useable after one mastered the normal version... that's just another example where you chose to go the short economically way instead of the longer one that keeps players longer in-game. i see so many players who already have most prime frames and weapons mastered in their profile but little of the normal counterparts... at least now can get them to build them as helminth fodder - but again, i guess it doesn't to be at level 30, right? so again, a wasted opportunity... the normal stuff should be a part of the build-recipe for the prime counterpart - and only useable then if at lvl30 too. sure, that's even more grind, some people would say, but then again, this would be the normal way of things and also the logical one... afterall, who build a house from top downwards?

[brunoswaag04]

DE please listen to your community again. you changed the core game play of the entire game by realizing that the copptering made the game more fun, instead of nerfing it you saw the value of it. being popular usually means well designed and fun. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

15 minutes ago, 9Drade said:

Why not buff some of those abilities to make them more compelling? Ya know, like they said they were going to on the stream. They simply should not have chosen roar/eclipse/warcry. Nerfing larva cause why would anyone bring Nidus anymore? Defy...already has a cap? Lazy fixes.

Like I said, Buffing powers is too hard.

[Sintag]

DE, big question.  Why not make Helminth's original abilities MR8 and Rank 3 with the Entrati, and make Subsuming MR15 and Rank 4 with the Entrati?

Why not give us the exact numbers for the abilities being nerfed so we can decide whether or not it's worth farming?

Why not, instead of throwing in multiple outliers to this system, go back to rhe drawing board and see why most of these selected abilities are mediocre?

[CopperBezel]

4 minutes ago, 9Drade said:

Why not buff some of those abilities to make them more compelling? Ya know, like they said they were going to on the stream. They simply should not have chosen roar/eclipse/warcry. Nerfing larva cause why would anyone bring Nidus anymore? Defy...already has a cap? Lazy fixes.

Okay, two parts to that.

Buffing some of those abilities to make them more compelling - they did buff a couple of base abilities, most notably Well of Life. What was said on stream sounded like buffing the versions of abilities granted through the Helminth, not base abilities, but that entirely doesn't work; either you could then apply that newly buffed ability to the base frame, which would be silly and also result in the same thing as buffing the base ability, or you'd be disallowed from doing so, which means the frame in question would be the only frame with a weak version of their own ability. Extra grind, thematic contradiction, whatever the result, making the Helminth buff an ability from its base version would be a terrible idea. So if we want a good ability from Loki or Zephyr for the Helminth, we're just going to have to wait for their respective frame reworks when and if they come. There's a limit to how much DE can do at once.   

What they did instead was leave a lot of abilities in trash tier, because they can't possibly rework all of those frames for this update, while leaving a wide middle ground of reasonably useful abilities that ranges from Fire Walker level to Nourish Strike level, and a few at the top. And now they've decided that those few at the top are going to be pushed down to that level of, one assumes, Ensnare, Molt, Breach Surge, etc. - good but not frame-defining abilities.

As for picking something else instead, Warcry is definitely the only thing you'd want from Valkyr, even in a reduced state, and it's the only melee speed buff on the list, so it adds variety. Roar surprised me with its inclusion, and it's similar enough to Nourish Strike that I'd personally rather have Charge, but it's not an unreasonable choice and it's not unreasonable to say that it needed to come in a reduced form to match the power curve DE intends for the Helminth. In general, with each of those choices, and any chosen ability for the Helminth, I'd say they chose what they did because they felt that ability in that form was going to contribute the most to an interesting Helminth system.

[(XBOX)CaptainSeth5423]

1 minute ago, Sintag said:

DE, big question.  Why not make Helminth's original abilities MR8 and Rank 3 with the Entrati, and make Subsuming MR15 and Rank 4 with the Entrati?

Why not give us the exact numbers for the abilities being nerfed so we can decide whether or not it's worth farming?

Why not, instead of throwing in multiple outliers to this system, go back to rhe drawing board and see why most of these selected abilities are mediocre?

I wish 

[krazox]

Pls Sintag, no more syndicate gating, rank 3 is already ominous.