The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

They will always choose the option to weaken the few rather than improve the many. I heard that admission from a Dev's own mouth during an interview. To bring the bulk of weapons up to a point where they would actually be desirable to use would take too much programming time. It is simply quicker and easier for them to weaken the frames, abilities, weapons and mods that are making them popular to the exclusion of other items of the same type. Is this a band-aid approach? Absolutely. Does it address the underlying problem? Cosmetically. For my part, I will effectively ignore the Helminth system for at least the first several months. Once DE has shifted their attention to the next new thing, perhaps they will leave this system alone and it will be somewhat useable without the fear they are going to "rebalance" it. In the meantime, I will enjoy the new open world.

[Cerikus]

I have said this many times and I will say it again. DE needs to learn how to actively upkeep the game. When the helminth system was revealed I was hyped to the moon, because I though that it's going to be a living balancing system. But no.

What DE seem to be doing:

Helminth is going to release as a final product with absolute garbage abilities and some good abilites that are nerfed and then it will be abandoned as everything in the game.

What DE should do (and i fear will not do):

Release it like it is. Broken or otherwise. WHAT DOES IT MATTER?
THEN. Use the data and buff each of the garbage unused abilities one at a time.

You know what you eventually get? a CHOICE. People will have to figure out what fits their playstyle or what exactly they wanna do, but currently the direction DE seems to have chosen is going to end up with everyone still using the 3 abilities, that are going to be nerfed, but nobody will care, because almost every warframe has a useless ability you can erase..

WASTED.
OPORTUNITY.

P.S. Yes, I am a bit angry, sorry for that.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

17 minutes ago, IGN_Maverick said:

Me either, and I don't even have ready to subsume or in my roaster a Rhino or a Rhino Prime. The problem here is that DE and some of you players too should undrestand that is totally legitimate for someone, veteran or not, to be wanting to just put the "simple" yet "very good" Roar ability on her frames.

What's wrong with that? Maybe that person just wants the simplicity of more damage output, I think is as legitimate as you, well rounded veteran, and deeply master of the mechanics of this game, having something more advanced or complex. Can we agree on that?

And If you condemn me just becase my playstyle criteria can be something that simple or not well tought or subjected to a sophisticated and extensive research, isn't this a little bit narrow minded and limiting of player's right to decide how to engage with the game and this system?

I would argue this hatred towards people that might or might not choose those six abilities goes as far as classism. Because let's be honest, yeah, the scope of this system is to create on 1 frame sinergies that could exist only with 2 different frames. So how can 1 choice be less legitimate than another, what's the rationale behind this?

- Complexity elitism?

- Forced gameplay?

There's no way that either DE with these nerfs, nor these players can have a valid point.

Yea, I agree. But even though we're a minority, some of us know how these games work: if DE nerfed roar after the update was released and many people alread put it on their loadouts, the backlash would be worse than just doing it now.

Even if there wasn't a youtuber that advertised its power, it would spread by word of mouth. DE would eventually see "Why is everyone using roar?" and adjust it after people discovered it, then rerouted all their game time and resources to choose Roar, which would be magnitudes worse.

Now, people are obviously upset at the inherent nature of games adjusting things. And that is not for anyone to answer except the gaming industry itself. 

There's no world where things don't get nerfed, adjusted, changed or balanced. Like I said, I used Magus Lockdown to retrieve lures while charging my void Strike, a lot of people did. When it was "adjusted". I simply got over it. I still love the game and can still solo Terry Garry and Harry. 

I know it sucks, and I know it doesn't make any sense in a game like warframe that barely has any rules anyway.

These guys need to ask DE and keep asking them until they get an answer. If they dont answer, that's their thing. I'm just a customer. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

48 minutes ago, Opyt said:

tbf, that's because DE doesn't care for the most part what people post here, it winds up being treated as all noise-no-signal.  Was hearing that internally that just have some poor intern skimming over what people post and then they move on.  The same thing happened with Objective Healing and Xoris.  If you come to the Warframe forums expecting to see any kind of response from the staff, you're being silly.  They're not here to damage control any more, they don't care.  And with only 4 days left before the release of the system I wouldn't hold my breath.  They'll put in a "feedback" topic after they lock this one post-launch, and then ignore it too.  They don't care what the players (be they customers or content for the customers) think they want. 

Exclay.

[---Swaggi---]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Th3BelovedSaint said:

perhaps they will leave this system alone

like Railjack 😛 ?
 

 

5 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Use the data and buff each of the garbage unused abilities one at a time.

Well and here we are again: The actually right way to deal with it cost more time. And guess what: The community would be finde with that beacuse on this way we actually would get a proper update/Feature we actually can use but not like this...
And this is not the first time...

True its faster/cost less resources and so on... But the simple solution is often not the right one!!!
"Keep it simple but not to simple!"

[Circle_of_Psi]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

 Are you gonna....roar at me some more?

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Cerikus:

I have said this many times and I will say it again. DE needs to learn how to actively upkeep the game. When the helminth system was revealed I was hyped to the moon, because I though that it's going to be a living balancing system. But no.

What DE seem to be doing:

Helminth is going to release as a final product with absolute garbage abilities and some good abilites that are nerfed and then it will be abandoned as everything in the game.

What DE should do (and i fear will not do):

Release it like it is. Broken or otherwise. WHAT DOES IT MATTER?
THEN. Use the data and buff each of the garbage unused abilities one at a time.

You know what you eventually get? a CHOICE. People will have to figure out what fits their playstyle or what exactly they wanna do, but currently the direction DE seems to have chosen is going to end up with everyone still using the 3 abilities, that are going to be nerfed, but nobody will care, because almost every warframe has a useless ability you can erase..

WASTED.
OPORTUNITY.

P.S. Yes, I am a bit angry, sorry for that.

Good point. Just to add a thing. If it doesn't get switched and changed around it also loses its purpose as a constant resource sink. Once I put all the abilities where I want them it only has brief relevance when a new frame is released.

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

5 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I have said this many times and I will say it again. DE needs to learn how to actively upkeep the game. When the helminth system was revealed I was hyped to the moon, because I though that it's going to be a living balancing system. But no.

What DE seem to be doing:

Helminth is going to release as a final product with absolute garbage abilities and some good abilites that are nerfed and then it will be abandoned as everything in the game.

What DE should do (and i fear will not do):

Release it like it is. Broken or otherwise. WHAT DOES IT MATTER?
THEN. Use the data and buff each of the garbage unused abilities one at a time.

You know what you eventually get? a CHOICE. People will have to figure out what fits their playstyle or what exactly they wanna do, but currently the direction DE seems to have chosen is going to end up with everyone still using the 3 abilities, that are going to be nerfed, but nobody will care, because almost every warframe has a useless ability you can erase..

WASTED.
OPORTUNITY.

P.S. Yes, I am a bit angry, sorry for that.

Well, at least it will count toward MR30. I agree, the Helminth system appears to be destined for the same obscure corner currently occupied by The Conclave, but you will receive MR standing from it. Sadly, it now appears that is the only comfort we can take from the proposed addition.

[Cerikus]

Just now, ---Swaggi--- said:

The actually right way to deal with it cost more time

Yes, it takes more time... so what? Are DE going to turn into dust if they do a bit more work?

Setting up the nerfed ability to work differently then the original is going to take some extra time too.

Also several of the abilites in the workshop, can be turned from F rank to A rank by changing a NUMBER in the code.

Their way of nerfing is not "time effective", it's either showing that they dont care or that they dont know.

[Black_Croaker]

I got 2 theories:

1. I think this MR change was a purely business decision. They looked at the plat purchases between the lower MR and high MR players. A new frame can be bought by a low MR player with plat. Most High MR players already have everything and has earned enough plat from trades that they wouldn't think about hitting the card. Then again, I can't blame them for looking for ways to generate revenue. 

2. Casuals Rule.

 

[---Swaggi---]

3 minutes ago, Black_Croaker said:

1. I think this MR change was a purely business decision. They looked at the plat purchases between the lower MR and high MR players. A new frame can be bought by a low MR player with plat. Most High MR players already have everything and has earned enough plat from trades that they wouldn't think about hitting the card. Then again, I can't blame them for looking for ways to generate revenue. 

But why have they changed the MR AFTERWRDS and not in the first place? 🤔

[Black_Croaker]

I d

Just now, ---Swaggi--- said:

But why have they changed the MR AFTERWRDS and not in the first place? 🤔

They realized their mistake?

Edit: Just so you know. I don't have a problem with it. More people can enjoy the system.

[Shemarria]

29 minutes ago, DeweySalt said:

They did it to appease the people who were screaming bloody murder about it being OP. I wouldn't be surprised if the number reductions they end up going with are negligible. It'd be the same deal as the bramma nerf, it sounded bad on paper at first, but its damage output and range ended up being effectively the same as before, just with a reduced ammo pool. I'm not sure if they did it on purpose, but it's a good way to make the crybabies stop screaming "nerf" without having to squeeze the fun out of the entire game.

You may have something there... but the nerfs still come across as mean spirited and short-sighted; regardless of final numbers.
NOW, to be fair, everyone will still need to grind up to rank 3 with our new necromancer-semi-Oorokin buddies to even unlock Audry 2 so DE will have about a day to see just how WRONG their B/S nerf attack really was.

Or not.

We'll see.

[IRVoidGuru]

1 minute ago, Black_Croaker said:

They realized their mistake?

Can you elaborate as to the mistake you are referring to?

[---Swaggi---]

1 minute ago, Black_Croaker said:

I d

They realized their mistake?

Wait you wanna say DE is noticing their mistakes and actually fix them? xD
Hmm.. Ok.. from time to time they actually do ^^
But it happens to less imo

[Black_Croaker]

Just now, ---Swaggi--- said:

Wait you wanna say DE is noticing their mistakes and actually fix them? xD
Hmm.. Ok.. from time to time they actually do ^^
But it happens to less imo

IKR. I gotta go farm the frames again in the hope that DE may change their minds. cheers.

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

20 minutes ago, ---Swaggi--- said:

like Railjack 😛 ?

Swaggi, I know, right? 🙂

[Amazerath]

20 minutes ago, DeweySalt said:

They did it to appease the people who were screaming bloody murder about it being OP. I wouldn't be surprised if the number reductions they end up going with are negligible. It'd be the same deal as the bramma nerf, it sounded bad on paper at first, but its damage output and range ended up being effectively the same as before, just with a reduced ammo pool. I'm not sure if they did it on purpose, but it's a good way to make the crybabies stop screaming "nerf" without having to squeeze the fun out of the entire game.

I don't think it's good at all. Every time they do this it reflects poorly on them as game developers.

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

1 minute ago, Amazerath said:

I don't think it's good at all. Every time they do this it reflects poorly on them as game developers.

Exactly. I mean, who wants to be a nerf herder? Scruffy looking or not? 😄

[---Swaggi---]

Maybe it's wish thinking but i actually imagine a communication basis where the devs and the community developing the game together in harmony where ideas and advices actually got more recognized compared to current situation. Especially when it comes to balancing and QoL Stuff since i have the feeling the Devs have the wrong priorities here... 😕 

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, DeweySalt said:

It'd be the same deal as the bramma nerf, it sounded bad on paper at first, but its damage output and range ended up being effectively the same as before

Lol, no. Having used the Bramma extensively, the nerfed version is very noticeably less powerful (= less fun).

'Balance' in a PvE shooter is a mirage not worth chasing after. Especially not in a shooter that's meant to be a ridiculous power fantasy.

[---Swaggi---]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

a ridiculous power fantasy.

With this system we are one more step to that fantasy independent of how they change the system...

[(XBOX)Church367A]

1 hour ago, DeweySalt said:

They did it to appease the people who were screaming bloody murder about it being OP. I wouldn't be surprised if the number reductions they end up going with are negligible. It'd be the same deal as the bramma nerf, it sounded bad on paper at first, but its damage output and range ended up being effectively the same as before, just with a reduced ammo pool. I'm not sure if they did it on purpose, but it's a good way to make the crybabies stop screaming "nerf" without having to squeeze the fun out of the entire game.

The bramma stood apart from every primary.  How does the individual weapon nerf based on usage match up to the nerf of several desirable abilities based on hype alone?  Even if they decided to change things up after a month or more of release it still would have been an ill thought out conclusion because there are several abilities that are just absolute bottom of the barrel picks that they are pointless.  It takes less work to address these few abilities that are actually desirable than it is to address the other abilities that honestly need to either be buffed or reworked to be desirable, there is no other reason for taking this course of action. 

The longer course of action in making more abilities desirable would have enriched this upcoming content further and made it more interesting to see how things changed to see if a less desirable ability suddenly becomes useful.  It would have given reason to farm up these frames with outlying abilities aside from just having a completionist mindset.  However here we are with the knowledge that instead of changing things for the better we're just in for nerfs in the future because something is actually useful in a pool of choices that are not as easily modifiable to the extent as a primary weapon.

[IRVoidGuru]

As much as I feel this won't be taken as constructive criticism I really hope you understand that it is.

 For many years of playing this game( I started the day that Nova prime was released)  I have accepted that content in this game was for everybody, anybody had access to it. Only during the time raids were introduced did DE present missions that were only for the "very experienced warframe players " and even then low end players could join.

Please DE , never introduce a system for "very experienced warframe players" then rip it from us again. Please be vigilant and when you use these words next stand behind the conviction you showed by making that statement.

Am I upset about nerfs? Kinda but you do good work 7/10 times so i deal with it. Your reworks give me faith in changes.

Am I upset about low MR content? No just as with nerfs it has happened before and will happen again. 

What I am upset about is being lied to. This system isn't for "very experienced anything" it offers a lvl mechanism that limits your slots, opening lower players to crave "best choices" until they can afford level ups for subsume slots. Forcing a statistical shift towards those abilities used by low Helminth level players who can't or won't upgrade. It is these very statistics that will then be used as reason to farther change the system. Most likely for the worse. 

So again,  just please learn from this. You directly lied to your most powerful player base.

[EvillNooB]

i'm afraid those 196 pages wont change anything

release is few days away, but we got no news