The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[quietcanary]

On 2020-08-20 at 7:30 AM, (NSW)Kokojo said:

If they released the abilities as it was, and then nerfed (assuming they would nerft it anyways) the amount of negative feedback would be WAY higher than right now.
I'm not saying I agree with the nerfs, but I disagree with the mindset "release then nerf". It's like giving a child a candy, then taking it away.

Thats only true if the community didn't agree with the choice after testing. Which they probably won't yeah. Thus we have come full circle to this being a terrible choice.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

 

 

On 2020-08-20 at 10:17 PM, HatedByLifeItself said:

The problem isn't the numbers. It's the nerf itself. Why bring the useful abilities down if you could bring useless abilities up. 

Also, if they nerf the abilities by 80% or something, it's probably not that worth, but still more worth than S#&$ abilities like Loki's 1, nyx's 1 ... et cetera

This. I was really optimistic when they said they were gonna buff some abilities but... they only buffed a couple and the buffs we got are ass. Well of Life? Pffft. Please. 

On 2020-08-20 at 9:50 PM, OniDax said:

Yes it would! DE said so! After all, that's the whole point of the nerfs. It makes the rest of the abilities worth using. DE knows what they're doing. Don't you dare question them.

_/s

Seriously, it can't be stated enough: nerfing the top abilities might make people reconsider some of the mid-tier abilities (only if the nerfs to the top abilities are substantial), but it won't make people use the bottom-tier abilities. And if they continue down the path of trying to get rid of clear favorites (i.e. most used) in this system by nerfing, it'll just result in all abilities being bottom-tier.

Exactly..  its like they dont understand how bad a lot of these abilities actually are. 

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

It is odd that we haven't gotten stats in the nerfs or especially helminth abilities, since quite few are peaking my interests but lack of info of stats makes me cautious 

[Shaderox]

An unwelcome nerf, not not entirely unexpected.

..the MR requirement halving i don't get the reasoning behind thou

[Bengosha]

As you said;"subject to change" hmph

Since the "I'm a founder" line doesnt seem to hold any weight anymore. How about this one. I've sunk enough money into this game over the last seven years to cover a nice condo and with more hours than that needed for a bachelors degree but here I am still reading that you have again broken your word to give us something worth while. It's on here a few times "you hyped us up to let us down" and truer words were never spoken so loudly just to fall on deaf ears. You show off this amazing system with reasons to keep playing and something to look forward to and with the drop of a hat, this hope was shattered.

I've stuck through for what a lot of what other players have called deal breakers repeating to myself and others "adapt, its what the games about" with hopes something good will come of it and its played out well in the past. This is different though. This was false advertising. What we are getting is a bastardization of what was teased. This sort of last minute swap is not what I invested in nor is it something I will be investing in further. There is no reason to alter it to cater to the update buzz crowd when it's the long term players and returning players looking for reasons to continue. 

'Oh but its not about the income, Ben'
If this is about balance, let us try it how you meant it then make changes. I thought you learned this with rivens? Subtle changes. But instead you have every tenno out here calling bs over the IDEA of something not being balanced enough. You tell us yourselves, its a power fantasy. Wheres my power? All I'm getting is the fantasy that just one update will go as promised without something being changed last second so new people can 'jump into the action' as those of us looking for reasons to stay watch them jump back out just as quickly.

I get that nothing you show us and nothing you say is written in stone. But would you just look at whats going on here? The entire community is unhappy with this. When did you stop listening to the players?

[Pizzarugi]

6 minutes ago, Bengosha said:

You tell us yourselves, its a power fantasy.

Where was this said? People keep saying it, but not once has someone shown me DE making a post or having a video saying "this game is a power fantasy".

Not trying to undermine your point, just curious.

[Bengosha]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

Where was this said? People keep saying it, but not once has someone shown me DE making a post or having a video saying "this game is a power fantasy".

Multiple devstreams. Usually from Steve.

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, Bengosha said:

Multiple devstreams. Usually from Steve.

If you can point me to any one specifically, timestamp not necessary if you don't wanna bother, I'd very much appreciate it.

Because if DE themselves are saying Warframe is supposed to be a power fantasy, it's going to change my perspective I've held with this game since I started which was upholding some semblance of balance.

[Culaio]

5 hours ago, (PS4)ElectricCold said:

How are people not fully grasping the fact that if Rhino's Roar is transferable it automatically kills Rhino's purpose. his high end build makes him one of the most tedious frame/tank in the game currently and there is no reason for me to use Rhino when, for instance, a frame like Inaros who has easier survivability, can ignore status procs with ONE augment and now in a couple of days can buff him and his teammates to do double their damage.There is just no logically situation outside of index farming would I, or anyone, would use Rhino again. this update will just make Rhino a go to starter frame until he can later be subsume to put on a more casual frame. Once again the constant suggestion from people who have no interest in seeing Rhino's purpose to be a go to subsume frame are asking DE to replace it with Rhino Charge. You can either buff its augment our the ability itself to make it interesting.

You do realize that inaros survavibility isnt actually that great right and because how its build to even have that survavibility its roar would be inferior to roar of rhino because inaros doesnt use high power strength.

Its true that rhino tankiness demands from player more managment but can be made easier by helmintn system, you use larva, then you use your ironclad augmented charge and you suddenly have a LOT more survavibility then inaros.

[(PSN)ironfist_94]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

If you can point me to any one specifically, timestamp not necessary if you don't wanna bother, I'd very much appreciate it.

Because if DE themselves are saying Warframe is supposed to be a power fantasy, it's going to change my perspective I've held with this game since I started which was upholding some semblance of balance.

lol u call what DE does balance?

[master_of_destiny]

7 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Where was this said? People keep saying it, but not once has someone shown me DE making a post or having a video saying "this game is a power fantasy".

Not trying to undermine your point, just curious.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-08-01-warframe-tennocon-interview

 

They cite this as a power fantasy, specifically the Helminth system.

 

-Edit-

They also suggest all the powers will be useful.  I...Decoy and Air Burst.  Literal garbage.  Decoy is a bad Resonator.  Air Burst is a bad Larva, or a bad Entangle, or a terrifyingly bad version of void blast.  Take your pick.

[Opyt]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ironfist_94 said:

lol u call what DE does balance?

Some people don't know that Arcane Pistoleer gives you infinite ammo for primaries while the buff is active, so you can run around spamming your Kuva Tonkor as fast as you can click with enough fire rate.  Others don't know that Exodia Hunt + Arcane Strike leads to basically infinite and very quick vacuuming when used on a hammer.  Cut them some slack, maybe they're only on the edge of the meta.

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, master_of_destiny said:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-08-01-warframe-tennocon-interview

 

They cite this as a power fantasy, specifically the Helminth system.

Well I can see a power fantasy feeling happening with the Helminth system, being able to take one power from a Warframe and slapping it onto another.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean the devs are saying the game as a whole is supposed to be that.

[master_of_destiny]

5 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Well I can see a power fantasy feeling happening with the Helminth system, being able to take one power from a Warframe and slapping it onto another.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean the devs are saying the game as a whole is supposed to be that.

Maybe read through the article first.  

 

There's later citation that the game has a limited PvP system.  It's mostly centered around "ripping enemies apart."  If that, along with the rest, doesn't indicate a power fantasy then there's fundamentally something wrong with DE's grasp on communicating in English.

 

-Edit-

This is a Eurogamer fluff piece.  Despite that, it indicates DE is more focused on a theoretical future than a planned one.  My point of contention, they actually asked about the command intrinsic and accepted the non-answer of "Soon."   Points for asking, loss of points for accepting that DE has no plans and decided to simply ignore if for the Helminth and Deimos.  Ouch.  If I liked railjack I'd be angry.

 

If that doesn't tell you that half baked is good enough...I really don't know what will.  The focus on Deimos's size, and literal interpretation of square footage rather than content, should really also be a flag.  The phrase was not that Deimos would have the most, but that there would be unique areas.  You know, like the Corpus labs and underground on the Plains.  Yeah, PR fluff and still indicating that this is going to be a rough launch.  

[Prexades]

A lot of people here are way beyond the point of losing their minds.

[Qoosion]

This is incredible.... the nerfs are insanely dissappointing and useless... all the ppl saying that this would have been broken are in a way right... but u know what else is broken?! RIVENS, Mesa,Saryn,Ash,Ivara, Redeemer, Rubico, Arca Titron, the operator system... and basically any melee weapon u can literaly use any weapon and ANY weapon and frame combination to go OVER 2 HOURS, THE GAME IS ALREADY BROKEN... what the hell does it matter that my Mesa kills EVERYTHING in 2 seconds, or in 1.... what does it matter that i oneshot enemies with 1mil dmg or 30mil... honestly these changes make no sense and are VERY bad.... as someone who gave up on this game when the RJ event came out this year (2020) bcs of all the buggs and the grind... this.. this update was the one that made me go like: "now thats smt realy fun i would grind my a** off"... soo ofc as idiotic as i am i went and told my friends how DE is finaly going in a good direction... and then the hell do u do?!?!?!... u not only take away the drive to farm... but also a huge kick in the a**... the returning players rn are not only super dissapointed that what they would have come for is no longer a thing... but the ones that have already started to farm the frames they thought they needed for later in the update... are now completely useless to us... BY THE WAY.... nerfing them does NOT make them useless... but as a veteran i will not go through te grind to get the Frames and standing to increase my dmg from 30mil to 50mil... or so i can afk not 10min with inaros but rather 15.... BUTT u also lowered the mr requiered... lemme just say that if the nerfs werent stupid enough... who thought this would be a good thing to it???? bcs now u made the dream for new-er players....for them it does matter if they do 2k or 5k dmg... to them its realy good... so grats u turned smt that was planned for vets... into a NOTHER new-player focused update... cuz the only players that are going to use this system in its current form are either going to be new players... or youtubers to later say its not worth it..........

GJ DE... that nerf realy felt good....

[Pizzarugi]

12 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Maybe read through the article first.  

 

There's later citation that the game has a limited PvP system.  It's mostly centered around "ripping enemies apart."  If that, along with the rest, doesn't indicate a power fantasy then there's fundamentally something wrong with DE's grasp on communicating in English.

I'll have to think on this, perhaps browse through their streams myself to see if I can find it unless someone else does.

14 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

This is a Eurogamer fluff piece.  Despite that, it indicates DE is more focused on a theoretical future than a planned one.  My point of contention, they actually asked about the command intrinsic and accepted the non-answer of "Soon."   Points for asking, loss of points for accepting that DE has no plans and decided to simply ignore if for the Helminth and Deimos.  Ouch.  If I liked railjack I'd be angry.

 

If that doesn't tell you that half baked is good enough...I really don't know what will.  The focus on Deimos's size, and literal interpretation of square footage rather than content, should really also be a flag.  The phrase was not that Deimos would have the most, but that there would be unique areas.  You know, like the Corpus labs and underground on the Plains.  Yeah, PR fluff and still indicating that this is going to be a rough launch.

After the colossal disappointment that was Mass Effect 3 and Diablo 3, I've learned to curb myself on the hype. Glad I did, considering No Man's Sky not long after, Fallout 76, and Mass Effect Andromeda.

I'll believe the feature is great when I see it. 😛

[Lutesque]

On 2020-08-21 at 2:13 AM, QuinnCarter said:

Dispensary is still going to give you more energy than you used to make it,

You do realise Thats pointless... Nobody wants the energy return from Dispensers to only Power Dispenser... They want it to Power ALL their Abilities. Even Protea herself can't sustain her own Kit using Dispenser unless she has Arcane Energise....

On 2020-08-21 at 2:13 AM, QuinnCarter said:

Warcray still has its augment,

Useless if the base ability itself loses half of the thing that makes it speaking.

On 2020-08-21 at 2:13 AM, QuinnCarter said:

and Roar is, well, Roar.

Do you really think DE is going to be generous about nerfing this ability ? 

There's a reason why everyone assumed Rhino Charge thought was going to be the subsumable ability. It's because Roar is really good.

You are more than welcome to tell newbies who have only played Warframe for a few weeks not to get mad but those of us who have been around long enough to know exactly how DE operates are justified in our concerns because DE doesn't know how to Nerf  anything properly...

Case in point... Most recently they lowered Maggy's Pull duration from 1 second to 0.75 seconds ? 

They nerfed Pull... Let that sink in for a second... PULL out of all abilities got nerfed !!! That's the type of Nerf Rational we are dealing with.

Now if you'll excuse me:

 

[kevoisvevo]

On 2020-08-21 at 11:24 AM, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Every game, everywhere, has reworks, constantly, over time. Way to go, nice retort.

he is in the right to be honest in my opinion. i have played dozen or so mmo with better rework track record. even overwatch was better than the lazy and shoddy DE reworks tbh

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Yea isn't it odd how someone can say something was "nerfed into the ground" that they don't even have numbers on? 

People still think the Bramma was "nerfed into the ground".....

[iSiawPrime]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

If you can point me to any one specifically, timestamp not necessary if you don't wanna bother, I'd very much appreciate it.

Because if DE themselves are saying Warframe is supposed to be a power fantasy, it's going to change my perspective I've held with this game since I started which was upholding some semblance of balance.

Sheldon Carter: [...] But I think at the same time, we stuck with abilities that players really wanted to see. It was kind of a power fantasy for some players to do this.
 

From this interview. I’ll try to look for the streams where they’ve said this game is a power fantasy but it’s gonna be hard to find them specifically.

EDIT 1: Found another one from 2018, here’s the extract( they’re talking about nerfs) :

[...]That's the most important question to us, from the perspective of both the active player and their three squadmates. We understand the importance of power fantasy[...]

DE Connor and DE Sheldon literally said that WF is kind of a power fantasy game.

Bonus Video of Railjack Expectation vs Reality

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

You do realise Thats pointless... Nobody wants the energy return from Dispensers to only Power Dispenser... They want it to Power ALL their Abilities. Even Protea herself can't sustain her own Kit using Dispenser unless she has Arcane Energise....

Useless if the base ability itself loses half of the thing that makes it speaking.

Do you really think DE is going to be generous about nerfing this ability ? 

There's a reason why everyone assumed Rhino Charge thought was going to be the subsumable ability. It's because Roar is really good.

You are more than welcome to tell newbies who have only played Warframe for a few weeks not to get mad but those of us who have been around long enough to know exactly how DE operates are justified in our concerns because DE doesn't know how to Nerf  anything properly...

Case in point... Most recently they lowered Maggy's Pull duration from 1 second to 0.75 seconds ? 

They nerfed Pull... Let that sink in for a second... PULL out of all abilities got nerfed !!! That's the type of Nerf Rational we are dealing with.

Now if you'll excuse me:

 

You do realize it's not pointless? You do realize you were shown video evidence on another topic and said "not buying it". You were proven wrong and flat out could not handle it.

Learn the mechanics of the game instead of assuming you know what you're talking about. 

[(XBOX)SwiftBMF]

Its not about how much the nerfs will be its the thought process that says nerf the good instead of making the bad better.

Youre still going to pick these abilities over the others.

I mean who's going to pick loki's decoy over either of the nerfed abilities?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)SwiftBMF said:

Its not about how much the nerfs will be its the thought process that says nerf the good instead of making the bad better.

Youre still going to pick these abilities over the others.

I mean who's going to pick loki's decoy over either of the nerfed abilities?

They could make decoy great and would still have to nerf roar. It was gonna happen and you're gonna have to accept it.

Roar is an ability and weapon buff. 

It was gonna be nerfed before or after, and people with a modicum of forethought know doing this after all the casuals subsumed the rhinos they worked hard for would be armageddon.

Decoy could use a large HP boost, essentially making it an OP distraction method used to take massive amounts of damage off the player. It's called "damage mitigation".

It won't last long in higher levels, though.

 

[SenorClipClop]

The internet is not here for patience and informed evaluation. It's here for hot, spicy reactions.