why can't we have more abilities per subsume ?

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

DE has given one very good reason:
They don't want to give away the abilities that would render a frame pure MR fodder and not even worth using if you could use the ability on another frame.

Take Frost for example.  If you could take his snowglobe and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to ever use frost again?  Or did he just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give snowglobe up so you can combine it with other kits?
Take Nekros for example.  If you could take his desecrate and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to ever use nekros again?  Or did he just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give desecrate up so that you can combine it with other kits?
Take Ivara for example.  If you could take prowl and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to eve ruse Ivara again?  Or did she just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give Prowl up so that you can combine it with other kits?

And I could go on.

They said quite a few times in the lead up that they don't want to give away ultimates, signature abilities, or the abilities that are a big reason that a player chooses a frame.
They don't want to kill frame diversity by making many frames utterly redundant once you get your hands on the helminth system.

Yet, they gave us Rhino's Roar, Valkyr's Warcry and Protea's Dispenser. And honestly the nerf did nothing to them and the charts absolutely showed it. I didn't even think twice when subsuming Valkyr or Protea since I have literally zero reason to play them anymore since they gave away their best ability. And to some people Rhino is on the same boat too, since you can just put Roar on Revenant for example, or any literally any frame. Volt, Wisp, Revenant, Saryn, Mesa are prime examples.

[Tsukinoki]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

Yet, they gave us Rhino's Roar, Valkyr's Warcry and Protea's Dispenser. And honestly the nerf did nothing to them and the charts absolutely showed it. I didn't even think twice when subsuming Valkyr or Protea since I have literally zero reason to play them anymore since they gave away their best ability. And to some people Rhino is on the same boat too, since you can just put Roar on Revenant for example, or any literally any frame. Volt, Wisp, Revenant, Saryn, Mesa are prime examples.

And the frames you listed have more than one ability that they are good for and that people play them for!

I can't tell you how many Rhino's I come across that never use Roar and instead use IC Charge & IS for being a tank with the occasional stomp....the sterotypical selfish Rhino which is the biggest one you see.  Roar was far from the main reason people choose to play Rhino.

As for Valkyr sure Warcry is one of the big reason people pick her...but they also pick her because of Hysteria...I rarely see a Valkyr in a mission that isn't in the middle of hysteria.

As for Protea: I doubt people pick her to play solely because she can create a dispensary.  I mean have you seen what the turret ability can end up doing?

Sure you may call those their "best' abilities, but they aren't the only reason someone would play those frames as they have other things going for them.

Frost on the other hand only has Snowglobe.  That is the only reason people play him as the rest of his kit isn't that good.  Removing that one ability from frost removes the only reason that people choose to play frost in the first place.
Same thing with Nekros for desecrate.  They only play nekros for desecrate and completely ignore the rest of his kit.  Removing that one ability from Nekros removes the only reason that people choose to play nekros in the first place.

That's the big difference in the abilities I highlighted and the ones you did.
Sure Roar is powerful and useful...but its not the only reason people play Rhino.
Sure Warcry is powerful and useful...but its not the only reason people play Valkyr.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

It's not that you cannot... but is it worth? You have almost 50 abilities to infuse. I bet some would be more useful than this (subjectively speaking of course).
I'm old player but I don't player RJ because I find it boring/meh. Same with Eidelons - doing solo is not good (doable probably but meh).

Worth is different depending on the player. You don't decide what is useful to other people, only to yourself. 

[Myscho]

So releasing new Warframes without abilities/ only ultimate ? Welp, that be probably kill point of releasing any new Warframe and game loose indendity

[twilightfallen]

SIGH.....again with this..... Being able to put a warframe's 4th on another warframe would make grinding easier. . . for players that do not do well in teams.  if im running ember and im doing a defence mission. being able to use snow globe in place of her weaker less usable abilities would actually make running certain missions with her easier.  im running WISP with Fire Blast AUGMENT on her and she still rips infected apart as fire blast destroys armor AND does self heal. the only problem with that ability is its not getting buffed by ember's other ability which is annoying at most. . . ALSO my mesa gotten better at surviving missions longer after i put greedy pull on her. i die less because i was being forced to grab energy

a lot of the abilities being sub are the ones i would replace with a different one. why not let us sub the 4orth or better yet... let us PICK , were still only be aloud to use one ability so why not allow us to pick. as for not using IVARA if im aloud to use PRONE on another frame would be incorrect.  if im doing a mission that requires IVARA's dashwire.... why would i not use her for that mission Oo?

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

34 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

And the frames you listed have more than one ability that they are good for and that people play them for!

I can't tell you how many Rhino's I come across that never use Roar and instead use IC Charge & IS for being a tank with the occasional stomp....the sterotypical selfish Rhino which is the biggest one you see.  Roar was far from the main reason people choose to play Rhino.

As for Valkyr sure Warcry is one of the big reason people pick her...but they also pick her because of Hysteria...I rarely see a Valkyr in a mission that isn't in the middle of hysteria.

As for Protea: I doubt people pick her to play solely because she can create a dispensary.  I mean have you seen what the turret ability can end up doing?

Sure you may call those their "best' abilities, but they aren't the only reason someone would play those frames as they have other things going for them.

Frost on the other hand only has Snowglobe.  That is the only reason people play him as the rest of his kit isn't that good.  Removing that one ability from frost removes the only reason that people choose to play frost in the first place.
Same thing with Nekros for desecrate.  They only play nekros for desecrate and completely ignore the rest of his kit.  Removing that one ability from Nekros removes the only reason that people choose to play nekros in the first place.

That's the big difference in the abilities I highlighted and the ones you did.
Sure Roar is powerful and useful...but its not the only reason people play Rhino.
Sure Warcry is powerful and useful...but its not the only reason people play Valkyr.

While I see your point in Frost and Nekros. The ones I mentioned aren't far behind.

I'm going to be honest, I've yet to see a Valkyr since Deimos released and I do a variety of activities. All I seen are frames that are not Valkyr with Warcry.

Protea, yes I've seen what she's capable of with her turret and grouping abilities like Larva and Ensnare. But if you ask me, Dispensary is her best ability. Literal fountain of Energy, you can flat out ignore efficiency with this ability. Universal health orbs and ammo and pretty close to infinite energy with Energize for you and your team. Not to mention Strength for even more orbs!

Now Rhino, I am very passionate about this frame so I feel like I would go more on a rant rather than make an argument. But to keep it short, why would people use Rhino over anything that isn't index? Tanking? Revenant and Baruuk exists. Afk tank? Inaros. Support? Wisp. CC? Limbo and perhaps Nezha (Not to mention he can ward companions, objectives and teammates via his augment.) And the key thing to note is you can put Roar on any of those frames or any other that I didn't mention. With the exception of Baruuk since most builds kill Duration.

[quxier]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Worth is different depending on the player. You don't decide what is useful to other people, only to yourself. 

Sure, that's why I added note about subjectivity.
However needs have many alternatives. I would still think twice before infusing Dispensary.

[Yakhul]

I would rather instead of having more subsumable abilities, DE firstly fixes the abilities that are lackluster.

Ice wave for example.  The ability without the augment on any other frame than frost, is pretty much wasted: low damage, low cc, cold damage is not the best. Even with the augment,  which should already be merged with the ability, this ability is not worth replacing on any other frame.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sure, that's why I added note about subjectivity.
However needs have many alternatives. I would still think twice before infusing Dispensary.

Well I wouldn't think twice. Universal ammo, health orbs and energy orbs have many great uses. There's the Energy Conversion mod from Simaris, Health orbs for the Health conversion mod, equilibrium, Synth mods for pets, arbitration mods that let you shoot health and energy orbs, the already mentioned energize as well as the arcane that knocks enemies down, synergistic use with Deathcubes Energy generator for even more energy orbs and with Zenurik will also allow more freedom for caster frames like Ember (who is about to be unvaulted) and really any other thing I missed. 

If you don't want dispensary then don't use it, plain and simple. 

Edit: and the system isn't going anywhere so people will eventually be subsuming more than one ability, anyways, in case you're not aware. 

[quxier]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Well I wouldn't think twice. Universal ammo, health orbs and energy orbs have many great uses. There's the Energy Conversion mod from Simaris, Health orbs for the Health conversion mod, equilibrium, Synth mods for pets, arbitration mods that let you shoot health and energy orbs, the already mentioned energize as well as the arcane that knocks enemies down, synergistic use with Deathcubes Energy generator for even more energy orbs and with Zenurik will also allow more freedom for caster frames like Ember (who is about to be unvaulted) and really any other thing I missed. 

If you don't want dispensary then don't use it, plain and simple. 

Ammo: while health & energy is ok (you can get more if you want; more later) ammo is not sufficient. It is very small amount of ammo. Take into account that any energy/health decrease will cause ammo drop not appear (don't remember order of importance). So you need to wait another 5 seconds.

Energy/Health: it's not that it's useless. However you cannot expect to infuse it and expect it to work out of the box. You need specific build(s). If you already using it, then Dispensary might be helpful. However if you have your build and you cannot fit another mod/thing then... the Dispensary will be less good.
If I need to make specific builds in order to make the Dispensary work then I would rather build pizzas.

I'm just making point that nerfing an ability may make ability useless or at least harder to use.

[Loza03]

The full complement of all three non-ult abilities for every frame is a no-go. Plenty of abilities would be off-the-rails given to other frames even if nerfed, and others flat wouldn't work. Metamorphosis, for example.

 

Having said that, I could see certain-case scenarios where other abilities would be comparatively harmless. Ash's teleport, perhaps, or maybe Valkyr's ripline. Movement/utility powers, is what I'm saying. Ones that aren't useful on their kit, but might be appreciated as fun or thematic on another frame. As long as every frame offers something, I could see certain frames giving multiple powers, either in one go or costing multiple frames.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

27 minutes ago, quxier said:

Ammo: while health & energy is ok (you can get more if you want; more later) ammo is not sufficient. It is very small amount of ammo. Take into account that any energy/health decrease will cause ammo drop not appear (don't remember order of importance). So you need to wait another 5 seconds.

Energy/Health: it's not that it's useless. However you cannot expect to infuse it and expect it to work out of the box. You need specific build(s). If you already using it, then Dispensary might be helpful. However if you have your build and you cannot fit another mod/thing then... the Dispensary will be less good.
If I need to make specific builds in order to make the Dispensary work then I would rather build pizzas.

I'm just making point that nerfing an ability may make ability useless or at least harder to use.

You can use it all together....it's not one thing or nothing....you can use multiple ways to increase ammo efficiency, for example....it's not "I can only retrieve ammo via dispensary and nothing else". And people already bulld for specific things....you don't have to build specifically for dispensary alone, even though you have the option if you want, but obviously that duration will help in other builds and vice versa. It's called a "synergy". 

And dispensary wasn't nerfed.....it was adjusted because they know people that can actually play the game properly can make very good use out of it. There was no guarantee you were getting a 1:1 exchange for a main frames ability. You can argue from a physics, lore, or common sense standpoint that taking an ability from the main source may be "diluted" since it is not a part of the main kit anymore. Just like making a mixed cocktail may "dilute" straight vodka, yet in exchange you may get a better tasting drink, even though you also have the option to drink straight vodka if you think that is good as well. The vodka wasn't "nerfed", it was repurposed.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

7 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

you mean like literally everyone susbsuming Spores or Mesmer Skin on every one of their frames and obliterating what little semblance of balance and diversity we still cling onto? that not a good enough reason for you? because that's what people will do. at that point, the warframe itself is basically just a skin, and it completely devalues them. 

no thanks. just make the Helminth abilities worthwhile and buff the sub-par warframe ones. 

 

Adding on to this, if DE added multiple abilities that's just a lot of extra work for them. I don't really see them going for it.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

You can use it all together....it's not one thing or nothing....you can use multiple ways to increase ammo efficiency

We can use many things, doesn't mean it's good.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

you don't have to build specifically for dispensary alone, even though you have the option if you want, but obviously that duration will help in other builds and vice versa.

As I shown before, yes I have to build keeping in mind dispensary. If I don't build for strength/duration or have any other things you mentioned then it's almost useless.
It's called necessity.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

And dispensary wasn't nerfed.....it was adjusted because they know people that can actually play the game properly can make very good use out of it.

So, if your favorite gun/melee deals next day 1/2 of previous damage. But that's ok. You can put Eclipse to get 50% more damage. That's not nerf! That's an adjustment!

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

We can use many things, doesn't mean it's good.

As I shown before, yes I have to build keeping in mind dispensary. If I don't build for strength/duration or have any other things you mentioned then it's almost useless.
It's called necessity.

So, if your favorite gun/melee deals next day 1/2 of previous damage. But that's ok. You can put Eclipse to get 50% more damage. That's not nerf! That's an adjustment!

All enemies were nerfed....they were made easier....so that's an indirect buff to everything. Also...the entire game was easy beforehand....We aren't balancing the game around level 5000 enemies....there isn't a "necessity" in having a 90 second dispensary. If you're capable of playing the game correctly, a smaller time should suffice.

A part of the balance in the game is not allowing you to have 300% of all stats. Do you think you should be able to have 300% duration, 300% strength, 300% efficiency, and 300% range? Yes or no?

And I was here for the Condition Overload and Bloodrush adjustment....and I lived. It wasnt a big deal....My kronen riven will be nerfed in the future...that is ok....I do not need it to complete missions. 

[GPrime96]

After the drama from M4D and the nerfs that came with 5 Abilities pre - launch, i can’t see DE adding more Abilities into Helminth unless more Warframes get added into the Game.

[quxier]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

If you're capable of playing the game correctly, a smaller time should suffice.

If I'm capable player then I wouldn't need this, if I get into "hard situation" it's not enough.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

If I'm capable player then I wouldn't need this, if I get into "hard situation" it's not enough.

That's what energy/health/ammo pads are for. You can spam as many as you want unless you're in the Steel path. If you don't have arcane energize, scarlet spear will be back and you can get an R5 in a couple hours if that. 

Arbitrations has Arcane pistoleer for secondary ammo issues, and for health recovery you have arcane repair and arcane elevate which are available with Vox solaris and Quills. Once scarlet spear comes back I'd recommend getting arcane grace and arrange guardian as well. One heals you, the other gives you 1200 armor.

[BoomyGordo]

18 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

DE has given one very good reason:
They don't want to give away the abilities that would render a frame pure MR fodder and not even worth using if you could use the ability on another frame.

Take Frost for example.  If you could take his snowglobe and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to ever use frost again?  Or did he just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give snowglobe up so you can combine it with other kits?
Take Nekros for example.  If you could take his desecrate and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to ever use nekros again?  Or did he just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give desecrate up so that you can combine it with other kits?
Take Ivara for example.  If you could take prowl and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to eve ruse Ivara again?  Or did she just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give Prowl up so that you can combine it with other kits?

And I could go on.

They said quite a few times in the lead up that they don't want to give away ultimates, signature abilities, or the abilities that are a big reason that a player chooses a frame.
They don't want to kill frame diversity by making many frames utterly redundant once you get your hands on the helminth system.

nerkos and ivara are both good without those 2 abilities. frost is not.

that said, you just made a very compelling argument for reworking alot of frames that are only used for a single ability 90% of the time

 

[SneakyErvin]

If they were to add an option for skill 1, 2 and 3 they'd also need to start locking the system down to the dedicated slots, so no more Rift Surge on slot 1 or 2 etc. And on some frames the ultimate is less defining for the frame than the 1, 2 or 3. 

Seeing desecrate on someone else than nekros would be odd. And then we have the issues with things like Mesmer Skin, which isnt even really balanced on the frame it belongs to, now imagine that on every frame. Even if it had reduced effect i.e less charges, it would still be so silly OP on frames like Mesa, Titania and pretty much any other high damage frame.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

On 2020-09-21 at 6:30 PM, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's pretty obvious.....

Do you want more potential for powercreep getting nerfed and even more crying on the forums? 

 

bullS#&$, they nerf anything and everything if it is OP in some way so any abilities should be allowed provided they get dumbed down.

 

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If they were to add an option for skill 1, 2 and 3 they'd also need to start locking the system down to the dedicated slots, so no more Rift Surge on slot 1 or 2 etc. And on some frames the ultimate is less defining for the frame than the 1, 2 or 3. 

Seeing desecrate on someone else than nekros would be odd. And then we have the issues with things like Mesmer Skin, which isnt even really balanced on the frame it belongs to, now imagine that on every frame. Even if it had reduced effect i.e less charges, it would still be so silly OP on frames like Mesa, Titania and pretty much any other high damage frame.

maybe DE should go back and rework/fix old frame abilities first then.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

bullS#&$, they nerf anything and everything if it is OP in some way so any abilities should be allowed provided they get dumbed down.

 

That's not a very well thought out and legitimate reason. And I couldn't understand a part of your post because of the censor.

[(PSN)SoulPharonix]

Just sitting here laughing about the idea of Hildryn with Harrow's Penance

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

On 2020-09-24 at 1:39 PM, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

And dispensary wasn't nerfed.....it was adjusted because they know people that can actually play the game properly can make very good use out of it. There was no guarantee you were getting a 1:1 exchange for a main frames ability. You can argue from a physics, lore, or common sense standpoint that taking an ability from the main source may be "diluted" since it is not a part of the main kit anymore. Just like making a mixed cocktail may "dilute" straight vodka, yet in exchange you may get a better tasting drink, even though you also have the option to drink straight vodka if you think that is good as well. The vodka wasn't "nerfed", it was repurposed.

I’m not one to complain about the nerfs but pretending they weren’t nerfs doesn’t help anybody. The only thing that was “adjusted” about dispensary was it’s duration was shortened. It was just made weaker, that’s literally the definition of a nerf. There’s no need to sugar coat this for people when you can acknowledge it was nerfed and still be reasonable about it.