why can't we have more abilities per subsume ?

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

I understand why DE said No to ultimate abilities but the other three abilities should be fair game to use.

this has been bugging me for awhile that we can't get the other three abilities and since DE is perfectly ok with nerfing stuff that could just give us weaker versions of all the abilities.

i mean it makes sense any copies are weaker then the original warframe abilities. as it stands stuff like Roar, War Cry and others are still pretty good even nerfed its better then what we replace in most cases.  

I'd just like a good reason we don't get everything aside from the ultimates for subsuming warframes.

[Leqesai]

Silly gif aside, I think it should be pretty obvious why a ton of abilities are not subsume-able. Do you honestly think that all frames should have access to desecrate? Wukong's clone? Atlas's Landslide? Hydroid's puddle?

Be happy they've given you the ability to customize your warframes with abilities from other warframes and enjoy the game. 

[BoomyGordo]

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Silly gif aside, I think it should be pretty obvious why a ton of abilities are not subsume-able. Do you honestly think that all frames should have access to desecrate? Wukong's clone? Atlas's Landslide? Hydroid's puddle?

Be happy they've given you the ability to customize your warframes with abilities from other warframes and enjoy the game. 

DE has shown they will nerf abilities so they are not nearly as powerful on other frames, so OPs question still stands. Why not allow it? It would increase customisation and could open new synergies in other frames with certain abilities.

 

EDIT: wukong cloan is a passive, not an ability. You should also remove the gif. calling players on the forums salty because they ask a perfectly valid question is just cringe bro

[Jusky_C]

59 minutes ago, --Excalibur-Prime-- said:

EDIT: wukong cloan is a passive, not an ability.

I really am under no obligation to engage in this conversation but hearing this bothered me a lot...Wukong's clone is NOT part of his passive, if you double check your codex, his passive actually triggers when he takes fatal damage; he uses one of his survival techniques in which grants him buffs and can activate a maximum of 3 times per mission. By the way, you are entitled to ask whatever questions you want, that's why these forums exist...but the other person has a point; DE had to nerf many of the subsumable abilities because of how easy it is for people to exploit them and basically break the game. Even if they nerf other abilities from all the warframes, sometimes this can either render it completely useless, or make little difference. Besides, not all warframes have abilities that can logically be subsumed; like what are you suppose to do with Limbo's Stasis? Enemies need to be banished for that... and Harrow's second ability wouldn't be very useful if you can't generate overshields with his first ability. Plus, being able to pick and choose whatever warframe ability you want and add it into your favorites would render other warframes completely useless, frames that are good for one particular ability now have no purpose and only used for MR fodder or subsuming (this sort of makes you realize that many warframes need reworks...).      

[BoomyGordo]

31 minutes ago, Jusky_C said:

-snipped wall of text-    

My main issue with his comment is that he opens it by calling OP salty.

My mistake on wukongs 1st ability. However, since we are on the subject of correcting abilities; Harrows 2nd abilitiy scales duration with the amount of sheilds sacrificed and using it again only adds more duration, It would still be useful on other frames.

Yes some abilities would be useless without their requisit abilities to make them work, those could be excluded.

I see no reason why being able to pick and chose your favorite is any different than what we have now. You could still only replace a single ability per loadout slot (a/b/c). Sure some of them might be nerfed to compensate, but thats again, no different than what we have now. Roar has a very low cap, but is still useful. Warcry has a very low cap, but is still useful. Why not allow other less desirable skills to be used also?

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Maybe in the future. Like an update to the Helminth and you need to rank it up to 20 this time.

[selig_fay]

I see only one problem here. This is what people will try to use only strong abilities. And I mean not only about strength, but also about a slot, because why do I need an ability for 25 energy, if my energy is infinite. 

However, I would like to keep the ability to bet the ability in any slot.

I would suggest that each ability has a rating and the set of abilities has a cap rating. And here we either players cannot have a set of abilities higher than the cap rating or all abilities are weakened if this happens.

The question is, how do you calculate the rating of each ability? Well DE loves automation, so I think a formula where one of the factors is the number of uses I think might work. If the rating gets too high, people will start choosing a different ability and the rating will begin to decline.

[Leqesai]

15 hours ago, --Excalibur-Prime-- said:

DE has shown they will nerf abilities so they are not nearly as powerful on other frames, so OPs question still stands. Why not allow it? It would increase customisation and could open new synergies in other frames with certain abilities.

 

EDIT: wukong cloan is a passive, not an ability. You should also remove the gif. calling players on the forums salty because they ask a perfectly valid question is just cringe bro

It really isn't my problem if you misunderstood the gif to be offensive. I even added "silly gif aside" to make it clear that it was in good fun. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It's pretty obvious.....

Do you want more potential for powercreep getting nerfed and even more crying on the forums? 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 hours ago, --Excalibur-Prime-- said:

DE has shown they will nerf abilities so they are not nearly as powerful on other frames, so OPs question still stands. Why not allow it? It would increase customisation and could open new synergies in other frames with certain abilities.

 

EDIT: wukong cloan is a passive, not an ability. You should also remove the gif. calling players on the forums salty because they ask a perfectly valid question is just cringe bro

The reaction is perfectly valid. The question really is not. No one wants to deal with another 200 page whine thread. It can be mentally taxing reading through angry thread after thread because of one or two nerfs so now multiply that when you add another permutation of abilities. The community is clearly divided and there are people that legitimately want the game to return to a point in the early stages before all the power creep came in over the years (people want Saryn and range mods nerfed for example), and you have people that welcome more powercreep. 

These are two polarized sides clashing.....so when this happens its logical to meet in the middle and that is what DE has done. It would be a bad decision to please either side by introducing incredible powercreep, or conversely nerfing the game to 2013 warframe. 

[Tiltskillet]

I don't think they ever said we wouldn't get more abilities.  Anyway, let's see how they do calibrating the current system. 

Honestly,   I really think they should have started with maybe ten frame abilities just to dip their toes in the water.   

[BoomyGordo]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

The reaction is perfectly valid. The question really is not. No one wants to deal with another 200 page whine thread. It can be mentally taxing reading through angry thread after thread because of one or two nerfs so now multiply that when you add another permutation of abilities. The community is clearly divided and there are people that legitimately want the game to return to a point in the early stages before all the power creep came in over the years (people want Saryn and range mods nerfed for example), and you have people that welcome more powercreep. 

These are two polarized sides clashing.....so when this happens its logical to meet in the middle and that is what DE has done. It would be a bad decision to please either side by introducing incredible powercreep, or conversely nerfing the game to 2013 warframe. 

your comment is literally longer than OP's post and you complain about a "200 page whine thread"...

did you even try and read the original post? did you comprehend it? theres nothing in it whineing about nerfs. its asking why we cant have more abilities and suggesting to add more while nerfing the overpowered abilities

[Colyeses]

On 2020-09-21 at 7:19 AM, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

I'd just like a good reason we don't get everything aside from the ultimates for subsuming warframes.

Any frame that's played without their ult would be in very hot water. If everyone had access to Ivara's prowl, who would still go for Ivara?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, --Excalibur-Prime-- said:

your comment is literally longer than OP's post and you complain about a "200 page whine thread"...

did you even try and read the original post? did you comprehend it? theres nothing in it whineing about nerfs. its asking why we cant have more abilities and suggesting to add more while nerfing the overpowered abilities

Because more abilities equals the potential for more powercreep combinations. It doesn't matter if they're "nerfed". "Nerfed" is just a buzzword. Not many things were actually "nerfed". I can still make great use of dispensary whether it lasts for a minute or 20 seconds. Allow some breathing room before asking for something that's going to continue to have to be constantly monitored and constantly adjusted because you added 200 more permutations. Helminth just came out so relax and try actually playing it instead of frothing at the mouth for more powercreep when you're not even finished with the first batch.

And a 200 page thread doesn't equal a few paragraphs. I shouldn't have to explain that to you. 

[selig_fay]

19 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Any frame that's played without their ult would be in very hot water. If everyone had access to Ivara's prowl, who would still go for Ivara?

Considering that warframe is more about skins and decorations than efficiency, I think those who like Ivara would go for Ivara.

On the other hand, everything will depend on what kind of rework Artemis bow gets, because Ivara really needs it. I would say even more than all exalted melee.

[xombob89]

I think they could easilly let us subsume abilities that DE deems "worthy". There are a lot of them that could be added without breaking things like valkyrs ripline and wukongs cloudwalk considering we got way stronger ones already. Especially if they nerf them when necessary. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

There's a handful of reasons some are not allowed.  Some are loot abilities and they don't want everyone running around with a loot ability whilst nuking easily.  Some are not done due to technical limitation.  Imagine trying to have all frames eat enemies like Grendel can.  Or performance issues might arise.  Like everyone running around with 4 mirage clones.  They already had to alter that ability due to performance problems in the past.  Etc.

That being said I don't think ultimates should've been off the table just for the sake of them being ultimates.  There are not really a ton of characters out there that have high powered 4th abilities.  I don't buy into the identity/iconic point.  Just because that's basically saying the frame is only a frame because of x ability. 

[quxier]

On 2020-09-21 at 7:19 AM, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

this has been bugging me for awhile that we can't get the other three abilities and since DE is perfectly ok with nerfing stuff that could just give us weaker versions of all the abilities.

Sometimes weaker ability means almost useless ability. Take Dispensary for example. This ability needs either duration or strength (or both) to give you the most drops. Subsumed Dispensary is at 12 seconds. After initial drop (3 seconds) you get a drop every 5 seconds. You get one at 8th second and .... at 13th second. So only 2 energy drops. Great, huh? But this ability costs 75 energy, so you get 25 energy back.
And of course this ability has it's own limitations like you don't get another drops if one stays on the ground.
 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

On 2020-09-21 at 6:19 AM, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

I'd just like a good reason we don't get everything aside from the ultimates for subsuming warframes.

you mean like literally everyone susbsuming Spores or Mesmer Skin on every one of their frames and obliterating what little semblance of balance and diversity we still cling onto? that not a good enough reason for you? because that's what people will do. at that point, the warframe itself is basically just a skin, and it completely devalues them. 

no thanks. just make the Helminth abilities worthwhile and buff the sub-par warframe ones. 

 

[0_The_F00l]

Mostly cause DE never intended for abilities to be replaceable originally ,

there are no excellent reasons

Few abilities would make little sense outside the kit it was intended for (stasis without rift? ) - not a great reason but still valid

Few abilities would be too powerful when paired with other frame abilities that synergise too well  - primary reason as these are a large number of combinations of these,

 

Its also difficult to actually foresee some of the combinations as DE has made a game with mechanics they themselves do not understand, we would then be seeing the MFD fiasco everywhere (i still disagree with the way they nerfed that).

 

DE decided to do this cause it is relatively easier to maintain while still having this as a capability.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

Absolutely not. At that point they might as well delete all the Warframes and pool all their abilities into Helminth.

Again, that's a terrible idea. Let everyone run around with Spores/Whipclaw/Peacemakers, Roar/Vex Armor, Desecrate/Iron Skin/Mesmer Skin and Wisp Motes. Yeah no.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Sometimes weaker ability means almost useless ability. Take Dispensary for example. This ability needs either duration or strength (or both) to give you the most drops. Subsumed Dispensary is at 12 seconds. After initial drop (3 seconds) you get a drop every 5 seconds. You get one at 8th second and .... at 13th second. So only 2 energy drops. Great, huh? But this ability costs 75 energy, so you get 25 energy back.
And of course this ability has it's own limitations like you don't get another drops if one stays on the ground.
 

People that actually can afford to use the Helminth will have a means to get more than 25 energy back.....2 energy orbs will very likely proc arcane energize.....

Zenurik gives you more energy per orb....

If someone started playing after Scarlet spear....they're still new anyways. 

[Tsukinoki]

On 2020-09-21 at 12:36 AM, --Excalibur-Prime-- said:

 Why not allow it? It would increase customisation and could open new synergies in other frames with certain abilities.

On 2020-09-20 at 11:19 PM, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

I'd just like a good reason we don't get everything aside from the ultimates for subsuming warframes.

DE has given one very good reason:
They don't want to give away the abilities that would render a frame pure MR fodder and not even worth using if you could use the ability on another frame.

Take Frost for example.  If you could take his snowglobe and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to ever use frost again?  Or did he just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give snowglobe up so you can combine it with other kits?
Take Nekros for example.  If you could take his desecrate and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to ever use nekros again?  Or did he just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give desecrate up so that you can combine it with other kits?
Take Ivara for example.  If you could take prowl and put it on any other frame is there a single reason to eve ruse Ivara again?  Or did she just become a dead frame whose entire existence is to give Prowl up so that you can combine it with other kits?

And I could go on.

They said quite a few times in the lead up that they don't want to give away ultimates, signature abilities, or the abilities that are a big reason that a player chooses a frame.
They don't want to kill frame diversity by making many frames utterly redundant once you get your hands on the helminth system.

[quxier]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

People that actually can afford to use the Helminth will have a means to get more than 25 energy back.....2 energy orbs will very likely proc arcane energize.....

Zenurik gives you more energy per orb....

If someone started playing after Scarlet spear....they're still new anyways. 

It's not that you cannot... but is it worth? You have almost 50 abilities to infuse. I bet some would be more useful than this (subjectively speaking of course).
I'm old player but I don't player RJ because I find it boring/meh. Same with Eidelons - doing solo is not good (doable probably but meh).

[Acersecomic]

On 2020-09-21 at 7:19 AM, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

I understand why DE said No to ultimate abilities but the other three abilities should be fair game to use.

this has been bugging me for awhile that we can't get the other three abilities and since DE is perfectly ok with nerfing stuff that could just give us weaker versions of all the abilities.

i mean it makes sense any copies are weaker then the original warframe abilities. as it stands stuff like Roar, War Cry and others are still pretty good even nerfed its better then what we replace in most cases.  

I'd just like a good reason we don't get everything aside from the ultimates for subsuming warframes.

Then everyone would be Mesa and Saryn. Like seriously... disgusting.