What if we merged the lost's 3 abilities into a singular main event?

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Aim at an enemy to blast them with a powerful Void beam damaging them

The target will then turn into the void conduit that strips defenses in an area of effect (forgot the name i'm sorry) regardless if they're dead or not

Then a powerful void scream occurs that opens up a void fissure corrupting enemies

 

It's going to be the first cycle ability to become an ability that actually do 3 different things at once, it'll cost 75 energy which is well worth it

The casting animation might be a nightmare though.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

Yeah we kinda have that but without the void damage; Bastille.

[chaotea]

It does plenty ATM. Casting Accuse on a Gaze target, or vice versa, creates an invunerable target that draws agro.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

That's be kinda cool actually, an augment that just combines the three

[SneakyErvin]

That is what I've wanted and suggested a few times in the feedback thread, nothing has happened about it yet. Same old crappy toggle replaced in a heartbeat by Fire Blast, a skill that doesnt require you to maximize strength in order to strip acceptable amounts of armor and it comes with a baked in DoT and CC in a single button tap. Leaving you far more room for modding options.

Currently the #3 skill is horribly weak on Xaku. Combining all 3 effects into a single button would not make it OP, it would make it worthwhile and comparable to other #3 skills out there.

[NinjaZeku]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Currently the #3 skill is horribly weak on Xaku.

It is not, to an extreme degree.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

require you to maximize strength in order to strip acceptable amounts of armor

You need a mere 200% Strength to remove 100% (!) of both Armor and Shields in a persistent AoE (which is about to get a range buff, actually).

It's far from impossible to reach that, Hek, I even got there on high Range (Overextended) builds:

Quote

Corrosive Projection, Vigilante Pursuit
Umbral Intensify, Blind Rage
Stretch, R4 Overextended
Augur Reach, Streamline
Primed Continuity, Umbral Vitality

250% Range = Grasp gets 15 guns and a nice 20m shot range, just over 200% Strength = Gaze strips defenses 100%, yay.
(BTW, I'm using Roar in place of Xata's Whisper. Nifty buff for both your whole Squad, and not least your Grasp'd pew pews.)

Mind, for a more casual run, I also have a Config that replaces Reach and Rage with Constitution and Transient Fortitude, and has a max Overextended.
Gets a bit more Efficiency in there to spam abilities a little easier, there's even the option to add Empower to get Str from 150 to 200 again on demand.

(No Umbral Forma needed, for the record.)

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

it'll cost 75 energy which is well worth it

Evening Hopper.

Point: 75 Energy for a reasonable base-range cast that immediately converts (with the typical 200% Strength build) 16 enemies to your side in a better version of Chaos (because they don't shoot at you), that is going to be buffed next week so it's recastable to 'top up' your enemies affected, is actually a reasonable cost for the cast. Because while the range may be less than Chaos, the effect is stronger on the AoE it has.

Second point: 75 Energy for an enemy lock-down to generate an AoE that removes enemy defenses (that's shields or armour), completely, one that's having its base range buffed for a more reasonable result for the cost... is actually a fairly good cast for that price too. This may not be as quick or as simple of a cast as, say, Sonic Fracture or Seeking Shuriken, but it is persistent for a long duration, made longer by Untime's timer pausing mechanic and a full AoE that affects every single enemy that comes in range. If Xaku had an ability that could group enemies up in that area (-cough- Ensnare -cough) it would be genuinely ridiculous as a combo.

The only one that anyone has real trouble with justifying is Deny, which is a weird place of needing you to have Gaze, Grasp of Lohk and Vast Untime all cast together before it deals any reasonable damage... Although it will be buffed to be castable while moving, which should at least make it not annoying to use if you accidentally use it.

75 Energy for a cast that sequentially; does damage then locks down an enemy, then generates a field that strips all defenses on surrounding enemies for a duration, then also casts Improved Chaos... that's not a 75 Energy cast... that's a 4th ability. That's better than a lot of 4th abilities, to be honest with you.

When two of the three individual casts are justifiable at the cost of 75 energy and nobody even bothers with the third cast anyway... incorporating the three together would not generate a 75 energy cost ability.

[Leqesai]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is what I've wanted and suggested a few times in the feedback thread, nothing has happened about it yet. Same old crappy toggle replaced in a heartbeat by Fire Blast, a skill that doesnt require you to maximize strength in order to strip acceptable amounts of armor and it comes with a baked in DoT and CC in a single button tap. Leaving you far more room for modding options.

Currently the #3 skill is horribly weak on Xaku. Combining all 3 effects into a single button would not make it OP, it would make it worthwhile and comparable to other #3 skills out there.

His 3 allows Xaku to scale incredibly high. Gaze's armor/shield stripping is very powerful. Deny is junk (even the proposed changes look like it will remain junk) and Accuse is pretty solid CC.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

It is not, to an extreme degree.

You need a mere 200% Strength to remove 100% (!) of both Armor and Shields in a persistent AoE (which is about to get a range buff, actually).

It's far from impossible to reach that, Hek, I even got there on high Range (Overextended) builds:

(No Umbral Forma needed, for the record.)

The skill is extremely weak, you just look at one part of it. Remember that this is a #3 skill, not a #1. It pretty much only has 1 useful component, which is the defense strip, while in itself is clunky for a fast paced game due to being centered on a target you need to kill around. The different part of the skill would sync well together, but due to the toggle that is mostly a waste.

Investing the strength for 100% strip doesnt make it much better since it is still only one component of three that is worth using. And you can get pretty much all of the components with a single click of a button with Fire Blast instead, which requires zero investments in modding. The 3 skills simply need to get merged to get the skill on par. It will still struggle with being a static strip in a mobile game.

11 hours ago, Leqesai said:

His 3 allows Xaku to scale incredibly high. Gaze's armor/shield stripping is very powerful. Deny is junk (even the proposed changes look like it will remain junk) and Accuse is pretty solid CC.

Yes it can scale high, but it is still trash due to the mechanics of the skill(s).

[BahamutKaiser]

They just need better Chording functions. Xatu is suppose to be 3 frames, so an ability that combines 3 choices makes sense. They could just make it change when activated during aiming or crouching/sliding, so you would have swifter access to more actions, but they haven't really analyzed ergonomics. I like a lot of the complexity in this game, but it really need a function pass. Even the fundamental controls fail. 

[NinjaZeku]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Remember that this is a #3 skill, not a #1.

Right, because the position of abilities determines / dictates their strength, which is why stuff like Spores and Reservoirs is so utterly meh.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It pretty much only has 1 useful component, which is the defense strip

Instant mass CC that additionally gives you a small army of at-worst-decoys is useless?

... no?

Deny could certainly be better / more interesting, of course :P

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

you can get pretty much all of the components with a single click of a button with Fire Blast instead, which requires zero investments in modding.

Fire Blast needs Range, and also at least 100% Strength for the maximum effect,
which is still only partial Armor removal, and does nothing for Shields, mind you.

Plus not least, you need LOS, while Accuse CC ignores walls etc
(give me back my non-LOS Accelerant CC gosh darnit DE).

4 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

swifter access to more actions

That would indeed be nice, I still say get rid of "cycle" abilities if possible and replace them with Tap vs Hold mechanics.

On Xaku, maybe split up his "The Lost" over both his 2 and 3, like this:

2 - Tap for Accuse, Hold for Grasp (both are AoE enemy manipulation that add firepower to your side)

3 - Tap for Deny, Hold for Gaze (both are enemy-targeted and can remove defensive capabilities)

[Leqesai]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The skill is extremely weak, you just look at one part of it. Remember that this is a #3 skill, not a #1. It pretty much only has 1 useful component, which is the defense strip, while in itself is clunky for a fast paced game due to being centered on a target you need to kill around. The different part of the skill would sync well together, but due to the toggle that is mostly a waste.

Investing the strength for 100% strip doesnt make it much better since it is still only one component of three that is worth using. And you can get pretty much all of the components with a single click of a button with Fire Blast instead, which requires zero investments in modding. The 3 skills simply need to get merged to get the skill on par. It will still struggle with being a static strip in a mobile game.

Yes it can scale high, but it is still trash due to the mechanics of the skill(s).

[Colyeses]

13 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

That would indeed be nice, I still say get rid of "cycle" abilities if possible and replace them with Tap vs Hold mechanics.

On Xaku, maybe split up his "The Lost" over both his 2 and 3, like this:

2 - Tap for Accuse, Hold for Grasp (both are AoE enemy manipulation that add firepower to your side)

3 - Tap for Deny, Hold for Gaze (both are enemy-targeted and can remove defensive capabilities)

I personally like the idea of a sort of drop-down menu style. Press 3 to replace your 1, 2 ,3 with accuse, gaze and deny. After one second, or after you initiate a cast, your skills revert to normal. 

We just need something better than the ability cycle, it makes me not use perfectly okay abilities.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Right, because the position of abilities determines / dictates their strength, which is why stuff like Spores and Reservoirs is so utterly meh.

Instant mass CC that additionally gives you a small army of at-worst-decoys is useless?

... no?

Deny could certainly be better / more interesting, of course :P

Fire Blast needs Range, and also at least 100% Strength for the maximum effect,
which is still only partial Armor removal, and does nothing for Shields, mind you.

Plus not least, you need LOS, while Accuse CC ignores walls etc
(give me back my non-LOS Accelerant CC gosh darnit DE).

That would indeed be nice, I still say get rid of "cycle" abilities if possible and replace them with Tap vs Hold mechanics.

On Xaku, maybe split up his "The Lost" over both his 2 and 3, like this:

2 - Tap for Accuse, Hold for Grasp (both are AoE enemy manipulation that add firepower to your side)

3 - Tap for Deny, Hold for Gaze (both are enemy-targeted and can remove defensive capabilities)

Of course it isnt all based on the position, but it should be compared to other abilities of the same position or lower ones. A lacking part of WF design is that DE doesnt seem to follow an actual budget for the things they create, unlike other games that have costs tied to mechanics on skills and a total pool of points allowed per skill, which results in better balance.

While the CC is great you still look at it as if you get it all in one go, neglecting or ignoring that you actually need to toggle and cast each effect seperately. There just isnt any content where that is viable in WF with its fast paced combat. You are always in a situation where you'll only use one of the 3 skills for efficiency. Obviously, if you only goof around and play for "fun" with Xaku it is a different thing, but then it doesnt matter which frame actually has a good or bad kit/skill.

While Fire Blast needs range, it starts with a base of 25m, so it syncs perfectly with The Vast Untime and has more than enough range to cater to Grasp weapon range. And since we are talking Xaku here, why even worry about needing to stay at 100% strength? You dont want negative strength since the stat is as strong as range when it comes to increasing grasp damage. It's simply a matter of finding the right mix for your build/playstyle. More strength caters better to melee builds since you dont need the range for the weapons and you need to steal less weapons to reach the same damage potential. I also wouldnt exactly worry about fire blast not stripping shields since they are already a trivial type of defense, even in steel path. And it isnt like we actually need 100% armor strip anymore after the changes to scaling, so I may aswell grab the skill that lets me juggle strength as I like and isnt tied to taps, holds and toggles or restricted to a static area. Which also lets me slot efficiency, so I can instead spam the skill as I go for the debuff, cc and dot.

And why would I want a CC that ignores walls though? That ends up with the enemies outside of my kill zone, slowing down the mission. Kinda like when you end up with mouth breather Vaubans that have the enemies stuck on vortex over the whole damn map behind boxes, door frames and gods know what else.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-10-22 at 8:40 AM, chaotea said:

It does plenty ATM. Casting Accuse on a Gaze target, or vice versa, creates an invunerable target that draws agro.

That’s 125 energy, at base, for something the frames that can also do that can do with 25 energy.

[chaotea]

On 2020-10-24 at 3:26 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s 125 energy, at base, for something the frames that can also do that can do with 25 energy.

Maybe, but energy management isnt one of xakus strong points :D

Personally I find its worth the cost, as im constantly keeping up his 4th, so while i spend 125 setting it up (200 for 2 Gazed enemies) it will generally last for 20-30 min, which is good energy value.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

40 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Maybe, but energy management isnt one of xakus strong points :D

 

That’s literally the worst thing for a caster frame.

[chaotea]

3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s literally the worst thing for a caster frame.

Sure, but if youve played him its not really a bad thing.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

10 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Sure, but if youve played him its not really a bad thing.

It’s pretty bad when you’re completely unmotivated to use her 3 because it’s effects honestly are not worth the massive energy cost. So you’re just sticking using her 2 and 4 the entire mission.

[Colyeses]

Thinking on this a bit more, I'd like the abilities to work off of each other, having additional effects when they are cast on one another. For example...

Accuse + Gaze: The Gaze target draws enemy aggro over a much longer range, more effectively.
Accuse + Deny: Deny impacts all Accused units.
Gaze + Deny: The Gaze target gradually pulls enemies towards itself.

[chaotea]

19 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s pretty bad when you’re completely unmotivated to use her 3 because it’s effects honestly are not worth the massive energy cost. So you’re just sticking using her 2 and 4 the entire mission.

You might be using xaku wrong, though i dont mean that to be insulting. Im currently maining xaku for steel path. The 100% armor and sheild strip is totally worth the energy cost. Using its 4th, I rarely have to cast 1 or 2. So all my energy is only being used on 3 and 4.

If your not doing steel path, you dont need to worry so much about getting the armor strip to 100%, which needs 200% power strength. You could instead swap some of that for efficency.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 minutes ago, chaotea said:

You might be using xaku wrong, though i dont mean that to be insulting. Im currently maining xaku for steel path. The 100% armor and sheild strip is totally worth the energy cost. Using its 4th, I rarely have to cast 1 or 2. So all my energy is only being used on 3 and 4.

If your not doing steel path, you dont need to worry so much about getting the armor strip to 100%, which needs 200% power strength. You could instead swap some of that for efficency.

The effect is strong. But the insane energy cost, clunky method of casting, and overall slow cast speed just makes it a far far worse armor strip option than others out there. Not to mention you need like 200% range AND strength in order for not just that ability but Xaku as a whole to perform. And the negative impacts of that are far too great.

[chaotea]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The effect is strong. But the insane energy cost, clunky method of casting, and overall slow cast speed just makes it a far far worse armor strip option than others out there. Not to mention you need like 200% range AND strength in order for not just that ability but Xaku as a whole to perform. And the negative impacts of that are far too great.

I dont think range is a big issue in this context, as you need it for xaku generally. So we can discount it as an issue. The strength needed to reach 100% could certainly do with being reduced. Also, The abilities base range needs a buff. It also needs a change so the effect happens at the start of the cast animation, as too often my floating guns kill the target before the effect takes place.

Please do remember that i never took a stance that the abilities didnt need work, only that they do have some interesting synergy at the moment.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, chaotea said:

I dont think range is a big issue in this context, as you need it for xaku generally. So we can discount it as an issue. The strength needed to reach 100% could certainly do with being reduced. Also, The abilities base range needs a buff. It also needs a change so the effect happens at the start of the cast animation, as too often my floating guns kill the target before the effect takes place.

Please do remember that i never took a stance that the abilities didnt need work, only that they do have some interesting synergy at the moment.

I wouldn’t really call “creating an environment where the DPS ability can actually be a DPS ability” a synergy. More of a self imposed crutch that has no reason to exist.

[chaotea]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I wouldn’t really call “creating an environment where the DPS ability can actually be a DPS ability” a synergy. More of a self imposed crutch that has no reason to exist.

?????

I never said anything about Grasp of lock being the synergy (It melts steel path enemies without any need for Gaze anyway). The synergy was using Gaze on an Accused enemy, making an invunerable agro drawing decoy.