I love Warframe - Please stop merging other games with Warframe.

[Wheelhouser]

On 2020-12-05 at 6:44 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Something about your post resonates with me. I don't even mind all these additions, I don't think they harm the game, and they can be fun. But there is one simple truth within your observation:

They never really improve on the core of the game. The stuff that got us to play Warframe in the first place. I'd much prefer a new game mode, or even composite game modes, for the regular game to Railjack. I'd much prefer a couple new spy vaults over a new Mech.

I played Warframe on PS4 back for about 5 or 6 months in 2014 - before any quests or the orbiter or archwings were added.  Other games came out and I just stopped playing.

Came back on PC about 5 months ago and started fresh.  Have done every quest and game mode.  Not a single one of the new additions are better than the basic game that existed 6 years ago (IMO).  I actually don't think most of the quests are fun to play through (though the lore in most of them is amazing). 

Archwing missions are zero fun.  I like that it's a useful tool on the open world zones, but if I'm honest, I don't enjoy the open world zones, so it's a tool to get done with something I'd rather not be doing, but am doing because that's where drops/rep I want/need are.

Open worlds are too buggy, even years after release, to get me to WANT to go to them.  K-drive launcher sending you under the world bug still exists, and it's at least 2 years old.  Bounty steps still bug out semi-regularly.  Zone control on Plains is pure annoyance sometimes.  As is the "is it under ground or above ground" question for caches and other bounties.

The quests that introduced the operator, to me, were not enjoyable to play.  I don't like BEING the operator.  Again, I get that it's an occasionally a useful tool in regular missions, and required for Eidolons, but I don't think it's fun.

K-drives seem pointless to me, apart from MR.

Railjack is fun, but a content island, buggy and Rising Tide is an annoying quest that does nothing to inform a new player about railjacks.

Liches seem like annoyingly poor attempt at cloning the Nemesis system, but I've not engaged with it.  I see no need for the weapons, do not want my resources stolen until I have all the RNG drops I want/need and the game has told me nothing about it and I haven't spent any time looking it up on the wiki.

Rivens don't seem interesting, either.  If there was content I wanted to do that required better weapons, sure, I get it.  But again, the massive RNG is off-putting.  I could get behind it if getting a riven for a weapon I'd actually use was more straightforward, and my time would be spent farming Kuva for rerolls, but I've gotten just over the 15 limit and not once has one been for a weapon that I would actually want to use.

Mechs are ok, but I leveled the Voidrig up to 30 and set it aside.  5 formas to max it?  Again, I find it less fun than being a warframe.  Less powerful, too, as I have a lot of mods for my frame, so I survive longer, do more damage, have radar and a larger vacuum.  Mechs are "less" than warframes, for me, in every category.

I get that some people like these new modes.  And I definitely use the Archwing in open worlds, operator a few times a mission if I need energy (and of course for Eidolons) and I occasionally play Railjack.  But when it comes down to it, I'd rather run an 8 zone Sanctuary Onslaught and hope for Khora systems than do most of the new (since 2014) stuff.  It's just base Warframe and more enjoyable, at least to me.  It doesn't help that most of these modes seem half finished and untweaked later on for enjoyability (like many of the quests).

I bring these up because while I love the basic mode of Warframe (you know, being a warframe and running a random mission) it doesn't seem that mode has progressed at all in 6 years.  If anything it's regressed a little bit by become so much easier than it used to be (unless that's a rose-colored memory).  But I remember group composition mattering if you wanted to go 20 minutes on a survival in the outer planets.  Now, not so much.  I can pretty much solo anything I want to do (I don't want to do everything in the game) without worrying about surviving at all.  It just doesn't seem that much effort has been put into making the basic mode better in all the time I was away.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

On 2020-12-05 at 5:16 AM, ThunderLlama said:

I love Warframe.  Please give me more Warframe.  Please stop merging these other games with Warframe and forcing me to play them.

Praise the void, I'm not alone! More Warframe basics, less Wharf Farm Manual Labor Simulator 2020.

[xombob89]

2 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Praise the void, I'm not alone! More Warframe basics, less Wharf Farm Manual Labor Simulator 2020.

Yeah, I keep compairing these things to mobile games and I will keep doing so until they stop enforcing them. 

[(PSN)thegarada]

I agree with the OP, with the exception of operator. I wholly encourage options. I don’t like archwing and thus do not play RJ. However, I am okay that it is in the game. What I am not okay with is locking none RJ content behind RJ. Example, Protea. Probably the corpus liches. 

Also DE makes the mistake of trying to make everything a mini game. Having mining is fine. Why the #*!% does it have a mini game? This is time consuming with no benefit. It took its toll on me in PoE. I did it to a lesser extent in Vallis. I have not at all in CD. I will never mine anything in CD or in the entire game going forward. I lost the patience to open up the menu, put the drill and play the mini game every single #*!%ing time. Which I will need to do dozens of times to build anything. I am done with this boring crap. And for some reason DE keeps adding more of this empty boring crap, like conservation. No issue for it being optional, if you like it. But having it look significant core content, is a hell no. 

And yes, DE needs to rework the entire damage system. If DE has to continuously create content around the player, to nullify gear/progress, it is a clear sign that the core design of damage is seriously #*!%ed up.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)thegarada said:

If DE has to continuously create content around the player, to nullify gear/progress, it is a clear sign that the core design of damage is seriously #*!%ed up.

For real, DE should be ashamed of this "we don't know how to balance a boss so let's remove all weapons and abilities" garbage.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)thegarada said:

I agree with the OP, with the exception of operator. I wholly encourage options. I don’t like archwing and thus do not play RJ. However, I am okay that it is in the game. What I am not okay with is locking none RJ content behind RJ. Example, Protea. Probably the corpus liches. 

You can get Railjack resources from normal missioms by farming Eximus. So you aren't forced to do it.

[(PSN)GrandisSupernus]

On 2020-12-08 at 2:19 PM, xcrimsonlegendx said:

With that mindset Warframe would still be exactly how it was at launch.

The Warframe you love is the result of them adding dozens of new features, some borrowed from other games over many years. Who are you to say when they should stop evolving the game, just because you're content with where it is at any given time in its evolution?

I want to counter this, because nobody, anywhere, on either side of this issue, is saying that the game should never evolve. But not every evolution is a successful one, and a species can evolve itself to death. What we are asking is for DE and the community to work together to recognise evolutionary dead ends.

What I am seeing a lot of recently is the devs releasing some new game mode with the expectation that it will revolutionise the game, but then it's broken at launch, uninteresting to the players at large, hard to access, or just zero fun to play. That's not the troubling part; the troubling part is that half of the time, DE will refuse to recognise that their new gimmick doesn't work and will try to force it along anyway, locking parts of content behind it like weapons and, god forbid, Warframes. They will promise a Part 2 that will fix all the issues, but seemingly get distracted with the new content and the Part 2 never materialises and we're stuck with it as it is.

It reveals the lie behind that one thing that DE said way back when Plains of Eidolon launched: that if we didn't enjoy the new content (like fishing, Arbitrations, Archwing, Railjack, Liches, Kuva siphon missions, Infested Salvage missions, mining, gimmick after gimmick after gimmick-...) we didn't have to do it and there would be other ways to get rewards. Eventually, responding to player feedback, Plains of Eidolon got Thumpers which was an actual way to avoid fishing and mining if one wanted to combat their way through the problem of getting those resources, and I can finally say that the Kuva problem is very nearly solved as there are now multiple other ways to get it. (I'm going to continue to refer to all of DE as a collective entity here, which hopefully isn't unfair to individual devs as we as the community have few other lenses to view the problems through as we don't know what happens behind closed doors.) DE themselves seem to consider alternate ways to play the game that avoid annoying content as important enough to worth mentioning more than once, so this isn't my own idea or invented hope, but they haven't stuck to that nearly as much as I'd hope they would. Perhaps the business side is concerned that it will impact Platinum sales; I don't know. And I'm not looking for anyone to "blame". But as Digital Extremes is always asking for polite and well-reasoned feedback, I will always have this same concern as long as some new unavoidable "revitalisation" the game is on the pipeline.

I'm a veteran player, and so my complaints about most of the new content being antithetical to the horde-killing, stealth-mission-ing, power-based team gameplay revolves around locking some new toy that I want behind it, like a Warframe or a weapon. For most veterans, working our way to getting the new stuff to try out is the majority (or exclusively) what keeps us playing. But I also help out a lot of new players, and having to explain the mechanic behind getting that Warframe they really want, like if they like the look of Grendel or Khora or they want one of those cool new Necramechs they saw on the loading screen... it's disheartening trying to explain to them how many player gates they have to jump through to get that if they don't want to pay money up front.

[Wheelhouser]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GrandisSupernus said:

I want to counter this, because nobody, anywhere, on either side of this issue, is saying that the game should never evolve. But not every evolution is a successful one, and a species can evolve itself to death. What we are asking is for DE and the community to work together to recognise evolutionary dead ends.

I think they do recognize those dead ends, to an extent.  They stop developing them to make them enjoyable/bug free/balanced.  The problem is they don't removed content that's locked behind them, so we're stuck having to play them or not building X item.  Which I think is what the rest of your point is.

What I don't actually get is how, repeatedly, the newer modes are released in seemingly broken, boring, unfun states.  I would love to know (and never will) if the content is considered what they aimed for in their design phases, or if they had grander designs but ran out of time and just shipped as is.  Because I have a hard time that the devs that came up with and programmed the base mode could have ever thought that the current Nightwave design (1st person slow walking 3d pixel hunts followed by a memory test via jumping and glass enemies that infest the entire solar system) was FUN.  And, apart from testing your patience and memory, it's in no way challenging.

[Alpha_Tango]

If this was all warframe and guns only, I probably left a long time ago. 

Pretty soon I'll be spanning stars on my Railjack, obliterating fighters, deploying on my Archwing to infiltrate a Corpus Lich Boss Frigate class ship, trash minions with my warframe, void dash to entangle the rest of them with my nigh invincible Operator, to set up a full on melee attack on my Bone Widow to slice them up into submission. Now, do I kill the Corpus Lich and leave her body to burn in space? Or let her kneel and beg to be my ally?

But yeah, lets all take those options out and just stick with WF and guns to advance through the story line.

How else can they tell a story other than presenting piecemeal representations of the WF universe. And here I thought we are lucky that they try to expand it not only through our WF PoV,  but also behind every vehicle they concocted so far and fighting all sorts of enemies big and small while trying so hard to build living planetary habitats enough to mine, hunt or just have a relaxing stroll beside a lake and catch fish with. How dare they? 🤣

[Iccotak]

On 2020-12-05 at 7:56 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The operator is the best part of warframe. Sorry, it's here to stay. 

I also love everything else warframe is doing. 

Maybe try to stop living in the past and progress with life and society, it's normal :D

Or try to see where they are coming from rather than belittling them ya?

I think they are onto something when bringing up how DE has a track record of neglected systems that in many cases do not serve the core gameplay

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Iccotak said:

Or try to see where they are coming from rather than belittling them ya?

I think they are onto something when bringing up how DE has a track record of neglected systems that in many cases do not serve the core gameplay

Every person that says this provides little suggestion or actual solutions, at least that are realistic. We do know they're eventually deleting archwing missions and archwing will only be for railjack and open worlds. So he's actually getting one thing he asked for.

He said he wants to play warframe and not with railjack and archwings and mechs and operators....so what does he want to play? The starchart? Because there was an entirely new starchart added with all new rewards. They even added the acolytes in the missions which I've seen many people say wished they could see them again. 

Also, there's absolutely no law or rule that says a game company has to serve their "core gameplay" for 7 years straight.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

On 2020-12-05 at 8:59 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Arbitrations were fine though? People like Disruption too. Steel Path was "basic missions and no rewards, but enemies have very high armor" - obviously not satisfying. Nightwave would actually be great if it lasted 3 months each, not 3 years.

The basic mission types are just not good enough anymore.

• "Kill ~130 enemies, we only spawn a few at once so you don't finish the mission too fast." Sucks.
• "Stand in the middle of the map and kill weak enemies we drip-feed you for ~6 minutes." Sucks.
• "Just kill stuff for 5 minutes." Sucks.
• "Do the spy vault you already know like the back of your pocket 3 times, again". Sucks

To add insult to injury, these basic missions also offer absolutely no reward. As was showcased with the Steel Path.

Of note is also, that when there actually is something worth getting in missions, it usually has a 0.2% drop chance. So you'll have to do them hundreds of times in succession. Even good missions would overstay their welcome at some point, and they mostly aren't good to begin with.

I find steel path satisfying. 

There are rewards for basic missions, you just already have them, so you personally don't need them. 

Also, in this game you have the option to buy that 0.2 drop chance item with the plat you've made in the game. 

A game mode not being good, and you being tired of the game mode are two separate things.

[AzureTerra]

Makes a change from all the X game has Y feature pls add threads you see

[Serafim_94]

В 10.12.2020 в 02:16, Xylena_Lazarow сказал:

For real, DE should be ashamed of this "we don't know how to balance a boss so let's remove all weapons and abilities" garbage.

Would them being ashamed somehow fix the objective impossibility to balance a boss in the game like this?

[Xylena_Lazarow]

6 hours ago, Serafim_94 said:

Would them being ashamed somehow fix the objective impossibility to balance a boss in the game like this?

No, but I'll take a reskinned galleon with a new color Grineer over another Slow Detective No Gun.

[Tienxia]

On 2020-12-05 at 6:16 AM, ThunderLlama said:

First there was Archwing -where I have to play a nausea-inducing flight simulator.  I don't want to play a flight simulator, I want to play Warframe.  There's claims that I don't have to play Archwing if I don't want to, but one Warframe is locked behind it, one Archwing boss drops Warframe goodies, and I keep getting quests for the new railjack.

I agree Archwing only missions shouldn't be required, especially when it can be so disorienting to have no ground or sky to reference movement in. However, Archwing does have it's place in open world scenarios as both a mode of travel (although it really trivializes k-drives) and to provide a sniping platform.

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Then there was operator form.  Suddenly, instead of a fast super-powered character with tons of choices of weapons, I'm a slow, weak character who is usually one-shot, doesn't get a melee weapon, and has only a few options for very weak guns....if they can call them that.  And I'm forced to play this silly Hitman game in order to unlock stuff for Warframe.

First, Operator form is not slow or frail. It weak at first when you get it, but the same goes for your warframe when first starting the game. Rank up some skills and the Operator ends up with 400 armor/600 HP. Slap on some arcanes, and you get 1.4k armor/1.3k hp. That's tougher than a good bit of the warframes. Add in void dash/void mode and Operators are tougher than most Warframes. Operator is only weak if you don't bother ranking it, which is the same as not modding your warframe/weapons.

Also, you are not locked into Operator form, except in story quests. Certain features are locked behind these quests, but that is to keep cohesiveness with the overall plot. It's best to think of the quests as a singleplayer campaign (ex. ME singleplayer v.s. multiplayer). 

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Then riven mods came about, which were super cool, but to unlock them I suddenly have to do specific platform-like challenges like I'm playing Tomb Raider.  I don't want to play Tomb Raider, I want to play Warframe.

Rivens are nice when you can get them, but that's it. They can bring weapons to extreme levels, but at the same time, it's potential stats are pure rng. Not to mention they can get nerfed at anytime if DE feels like it via desposition rebalances.

If the challenge for the riven is too difficult, sell it and buy someone else's riven for an easier challenge. Or even save up and buy a unveiled riven you like. You do no need to engage in the riven rng game to get the benefits.

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Then the nightwave came around, and instead of being a fast Warframe fighting epic battles, I'm a slow cripple looking around to find items that are half glitched into the wall.  I don't want to play Super Slow Detective Man, I want to play Warframe.  Then the boss comes and I finally get to play Warframe except nope - you don't get any abilities or any guns and we won't really explain how to fight him.

Yes, this nightwave certainly could have been better done, but that's why it's on a rotational schedule. Hopefully the next one hits the money better.

I did enjoy the bossfight though; I felt a lot more pressure trying to beat this boss than running steel path endurances. It challenges the player rather than the player's stats, which is nice when the majority of the time it's the opposite.

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Then came Mechs.  I love Mechs that you can fully customize with dozens of weapons in hundreds of configurations, choosing from dozens of mechs, each with different speeds and pro's and con's - deciding whether you want jump jets or more armor or ECM suites or.....wait....no....that's Mechwarrior.  I don't want to play clunky, slow, awkward Mechs...I'd rather play Mechwarrior.

Mechs are my bread-and-butter, especially ones with high levels of customizations. You might be approaching this with too limited a viewpoint. The mechs don't have to be limited to lumbering mechwarrior types. We could easily go the route of Armored Core and have extreme levels of speed and firepower. 

Variety is good. We could have mechwarrior types suited to defense type missions, and Armored Core types suited for stuff like assassinations/capture.

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Then I fight more and more battles where bosses and mini bosses are immune to my abilities, or the abilities and status effects of my guns.  I don't want to play 50% features Warframe, I want to play full Warframe.  It's a glitch that my abilities aren't working, right?  No?  It's programmed that way?  Did someone sneak code in to sabotage the game?  No?  It was on purpose?  I'm confused.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and this is a severe flaw of Warframe. DE does not seem to know how to make a tough, engaging boss. 

Part of this has to do with Warframe being Powertrip: The Game. It takes some serious thought and design to put in a boss that can deal with the OP state of fully built warframes without tossing in ability negation/invincibility/status immunity. This is exacerbated by additional factors such as combat speed, movement freedom, and individual warframe/weapon capabilities. Each of these factors just multiplies the difficulty of (the already difficult) boss design.

How do you let the boss deal with Limbo's rift? What about Kora's strangledome? What about a modded Ignis Wraith? That's just 3 instances, and it's already a nightmare to balance a boss around them. Can you imagine the work to balance around ALL Warframes, ALL Primaries, ALL Secondaries, ALL Gear items (Specters, Archgun, etc), and ALL Companions? 

That is not to say it's impossible, just very work intense and though-heavy. Things such as variable damage caps, boss ability interactions, and boss arenas can deal with them, but it would take loads of time to make one boss, and the boss would need to be updated everytime a new weapon/warframe is added.

That is a LOT of effort that I don't believe DE is willing to put in. DE seems more keen on adding quantityvs quality, which is why their current boss design is to take a grunt unit, amp up it's damage through the roof, tack on a bunch of ability nullification/invincible phases/status immunitites, and give it a name.

Unless DE takes a hard look to revise some of the game's fundamental design, we're stuck with superamped grunt vs actual engagin boss. 

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I love Warframe.  Please give me more Warframe.  Please stop merging these other games with Warframe and forcing me to play them.

Warframe must change, or it will fade. Success is built on innovation, not stagnation. Changes must be made, and issues must be addressed for Warframe to be healthy. I do agree with you some things added were not the best, but hopefully it is a learning experience for DE.

However, if we keep Warframe the same as you suggest, it's not going to be pretty. A good example of this is something you listed: Boss design. The current boss design is only here because DE kept pumping up warframe powers, realizing players are steamrolling bosses, then going back and adding in mechanics that remove those same powers. It's a cycle. This is going to happen more and more if things stay the same.

[Serafim_94]

2 часа назад, Xylena_Lazarow сказал:

No, but I'll take a reskinned galleon with a new color Grineer over another Slow Detective No Gun.

I... I can't really argue against that particular example. Excuse me, I'm off to enjoy some nightwave PTSD.

[Travis05]

You really havent enough slaughter? I mean:

-You have to farm formas, this requires to play void fissure. No operator or archwing or mech here, just regular warframe

-For open world sindicates (fortuna, poe, deimos) you maybe need to use archwing if you want to go a little faster. But the bounties use the same warframe formula. Kill everything in sight.

-You can hunt liches. No operator, archwing or mech here.

-You have the steel path. The star chart is still the same, except the archwing missions.

-Arbitrations. Again nothing unusual here

What are you complaining about? No a single one of those things you mentioned is required to play the game. Operator is only truly required on eidolon hunt and kuva quests, you havent to do those. Archwing is mostly used on railjack missions, that are almost completely empty, nobody play them. Mechs are optional too, you can transfer into one or not. The deimos bounties dont force you to do it.

The only thing i can more or less understand is when you say your abilities and status dont affect bosses. But i mean...they are bosses for a reason no? I think it would be pretty ridiculous to use mag pull and have them bouncing through the room for example. At least lets have some challenge

[Iccotak]

15 hours ago, Tienxia said:

Warframe must change, or it will fade. Success is built on innovation, not stagnation.

Or maybe don't fix what ain't broke

15 hours ago, Tienxia said:

Changes must be made, and issues must be addressed for Warframe to be healthy.

If they want to make changes for the long term health of the game then stop adding half-finished features. Stop creating castle ruins and focus on creating a solid foundation.

Halo innovates but it sticks to the core of the game. The new Doom games innovate but they focus on the core aspect of what made Doom great. 

[Tienxia]

On 2020-12-14 at 11:11 AM, Iccotak said:

Or maybe don't fix what ain't broke

If that were the case, we'd still have Melee 0.0, AKA mash melee for looping quick attack, or hold for a charged attack. Change in the right direction is good.

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If they want to make changes for the long term health of the game then stop adding half-finished features. Stop creating castle ruins and focus on creating a solid foundation.

Halo innovates but it sticks to the core of the game. The new Doom games innovate but they focus on the core aspect of what made Doom great. 

I agree, that's my ramble on WF boss design summed up in a sentence. 

Warframe never had a solid foundation to start with, unlike Halo and Doom. We see this with all the Melee/Damage/etc. 1.0/2.0's.

DE treats WF's basic foundations like it's modular, which is the crux of the problem. DE designs everything as a placeholder. That's a problem.

If it is not clear by now, I am not a fan of DE's design choices. I just wanted more specificity from OP.

[TheMostFrench]

On 2020-12-09 at 3:31 AM, LuckyCharm said:

And then demios was added and its like warframe was merged with the dr phil show. Wonder when theyre going to stick in a dating sim along with some hunie pop. 

Don't give them ideas, some people would love to be able to romance their Warframes and Operators.

[TheMostFrench]

 

On 2020-12-14 at 8:51 AM, Tienxia said:

A good example of this is something you listed: Boss design. The current boss design is only here because DE kept pumping up warframe powers, realizing players are steamrolling bosses, then going back and adding in mechanics that remove those same powers. It's a cycle. This is going to happen more and more if things stay the same.

Since the game is about grinding for parts and loot, players will always try and find the fastest, easiest way to complete content. DE decided they didn't always want players to be able to defeat enemies instantly, because then that's the only method people ever use. Think of all the videos out there like 'Best way to solo xyz boss' - last time I farmed Ropalolyst everyone was using Wukong each time because that's what the online guides say to do, even I'm guilty of it.

DE need that content to last in between releases. Otherwise people come back and say "Okay I have everything from that release, what is there to do now?" but then you come to the forums and find other people saying that they want LESS stuff, while others say the amount of stuff is just right but they want it all working perfectly before seeing anything else, then finally, there are others who say the game is completely flawed and can never be saved (they need to play something else for a while).

It's a very bizarre mixture of opinions, and attitudes, where it's really clear that some people won't walk away until they get their way, but others are just happy to have fun and do whatever. (Not trying to say you're in one camp or the other, but just sharing my observations, I've definitely been on the forums too long today).

[Iccotak]

On 2020-12-15 at 11:57 PM, Tienxia said:

Warframe never had a solid foundation to start with, unlike Halo and Doom. We see this with all the Melee/Damage/etc. 1.0/2.0's.

DE treats WF's basic foundations like it's modular, which is the crux of the problem. DE designs everything as a placeholder. That's a problem.

I could not agree more. DE needs to make solid decisions. Pick a direction and stick with it

[SweetAnubis]

imagine if thy did what everyone else did instead for new content... sunsetting your favorite warframe so you can never use it again due to level capping... or making you grind for new more powerful gear that invalidates everything you did in the last 2 years... all for the sake of artificial vertical progression... personally i prefer this means of horizontal or branching progression that doesnt completely invalidate everything i did the last xx years

[Iccotak]

2 hours ago, SweetAnubis said:

imagine if thy did what everyone else did instead for new content... sunsetting your favorite warframe so you can never use it again due to level capping... or making you grind for new more powerful gear that invalidates everything you did in the last 2 years... all for the sake of artificial vertical progression... personally i prefer this means of horizontal or branching progression that doesnt completely invalidate everything i did the last xx years

Not all games do this. ESO has great horizontal progression but it has a solid foundation to build off of - Warframe doesn't