Nemesis System now Trademarked by Warner

[lemonforest]

What could this mean for Warframe? Has DE or Tencent entered into talks with WB about potential ramifications? How long until WB comes after the Lich System?

Steve left no illusion that it was heavily influenced by the Nemesis System. It's my understanding that's more than enough grounds for WB to choose to take legal action even if the patent was filled after DE implemented the Lich System since WB can prove that they were the exclusive creators but I'm no Patent Lawyer.

To be honest, it's really beyond me that an AI adaptive, enemy/character generation framework could be blanket patented but we do live in a world were eBay one click buy was trademarked forcing Amazon to do the "slide to instantly but" in the mobile app.

 

Sauce; https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/esports/warner-bros-now-holds-trademark-to-nemesis-system-after-patent-e2-80-99s-approval/ar-BB1draGN

[DoomFruit]

Isn't pre-existing prior art an immediate invalidation of any patent?

[lemonforest]

36 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Isn't pre-existing prior art an immediate invalidation of any patent?

Not by the original creator. A patent could historical be filed for any preexisting process/technology by any individual and awarded, causing grief for the original creator. In present times, they will almost always be denied but there are historical cases of early inventors getting the shaft that way.

[Myscho]

We already know that Nemesis system for Liches was only a wet dream, they never could put something that complex in Warframe

[SneakyErvin]

It is about the trademark, which is The Nemesis System. WF has a system refered to as Kingpins which holds Kuva Liches and the upcoming "Queenpins", both also being different from eachother. There are also massive differences between The Nemesis System and what we have in WF. Borrowing ideas from something, even if trademarked and patented (though I highly doubt they actually got a patent on their system, since it isnt a technological advancements etc.), does not infringe the patented product.

And to make it fully clear, patent is based on nations, they arent international unless you seek patent in all countries where you want your unique product to be locked out from others. So if WB hasnt sought patent in Canada there is nothing they can do. And further, since the "patent" came after the implementation of the kingpin system in WF, there is nothing WB can do in that regard either.

But in the end, the systems are too different. Otherwise I guess WB will start suing Blizzard aswell as Crate for having systems called Nemesis aswell, that also spawns a specific "boss" for the players. Though they are completely different in implementation.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

That trademark is such a funny move from WB. They arguably spent more time and effort on getting that trademark than they spent resources on both of their games combined. Since nobody even talks about either of the games anymore, now they're just making sure that the world will never see an actually good adaptation of the system.

[Loza03]

It's a scummy move, but I think we're safe due to the same reason why describing it as inspired by Nemsis system was probably a bad idea in the first place. Namely, there's... basically nothing that connects them past a very vague resemblence. And the thing about trademarks is that they can be very, very specific.

The nemesis system involves the game getting flags for basically any event that a player can do with an orc - run from them, fight them, even kill them. Then it calls them up to generate and change aspects about that orc (from the next voice line to a model change) the next time you encounter them. In so many words, if there's a nemesis, it's you to a whole bunch of orcs.

By contrast, the Lich system generates based on currently equipped loot, has a ton of pre-sets and is honestly about as mechanically different from the Nemesis system as you can get mechanically. The only really shared mechanics is the procedurally generated names and appearances, and there's way too much stuff using similar systems for those to be covered by a trademark, in the same way you can't trademark a single word. Very well. Sky in the UK tries very hard to. Also Bethesda with the Elder Scrolls. It's not historically only been partially successful though.

[Dauggie]

warframe's lich system is not even close to actual nemesis system. for now all lich system is, each tenno will get RNG enemy specific to them which doesn't even evolve, just increases HP/armor everytime it dies. that' it! with railjack implemented into the mix, it's an entirely different mode tbh. i was "just inspired" by nemesis idea, but it turned out into something else. (which basically is how games have evolved)

[UncaIroh]

Yeah when I saw the news I was wondering if DE would have to tweak it or they have safe harbors because it was implemented prior to the patent.

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 hours ago, Myscho said:

We already know that Nemesis system for Liches was only a wet dream, they never could put something that complex in Warframe

We thinking about the same system? I don’t think so

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

6 hours ago, lemonforest said:

What could this mean for Warframe? Has DE or Tencent entered into talks with WB about potential ramifications? How long until WB comes after the Lich System?

Steve left no illusion that it was heavily influenced by the Nemesis System. It's my understanding that's more than enough grounds for WB to choose to take legal action even if the patent was filled after DE implemented the Lich System since WB can prove that they were the exclusive creators but I'm no Patent Lawyer.

To be honest, it's really beyond me that an AI adaptive, enemy/character generation framework could be blanket patented but we do live in a world were eBay one click buy was trademarked forcing Amazon to do the "slide to instantly but" in the mobile app.

 

Sauce; https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/esports/warner-bros-now-holds-trademark-to-nemesis-system-after-patent-e2-80-99s-approval/ar-BB1draGN

We should instead, finally do something about the stupidity that Intellectual Property is. 

This concept shouldn't even exist to begin with.

 

[Electropuncher]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice, and honestly probably a waste of both of our time.

A trademark and a patent are two very different things. A patent is an exclusive right to a concept granted only if the concept is novel and not obvious that eventually expires (after 20 years in the US, where Warner is based). You don't need to prove if it works, just that no one else has done it and that a child couldn't figure it out by messing around for a few minutes. Popular video game patents include "auxiliary games" by Namco (aka loading screen minigames) [Expired November 2015], a system for attack power based on character density by Omega Force (AKA Dynasty Warriors' entire battle system) [Expires August 2021], and the ability to join a game your friend is in while you don't have that game running by Microsoft (XBox Live) [Expires January 2026]. A trademark is a brand name that has very specific and narrow limits for both how you apply for and use it, but lasts as long as you use it. Warner owns both the patent to the Nemesis System (in a surprisingly narrow sense due to several competing patents) and the trademark to Nemesis System.

Something to note is that while game mechanics are patentable, enforcing said patent is another matter entirely. altogether. https://patents.stackexchange.com/questions/210/can-game-mechanics-be-patented#:~:text=Board game mechanics (the process,playing the game) are patentable.&text=Copyright does not protect the,merchandising%2C or playing a game. 

What this means for Warframe: ...Basically nothing. Steve can't call the Lich/Queen-pin system a Nemesis system without owing WB some money, if they even want to bother dragging him to court. Not to mention the way DE implements those systems is a far cry from how WB implements theirs.

[Electropuncher]

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

We should instead, finally do something about the stupidity that Intellectual Property is. 

This concept shouldn't even exist to begin with.

Make something worth patenting or trademarking like an invention or a piece of art that people actually want to buy and let's see how long you keep saying that.

[Hobie-wan]

I don't see anyone down the road paying WB to 'license' the system. All they've done is stifle creativity and written douchebag on their own jacket, again.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Considering that the Grineer Lich and Corpus Queenpin systems do not function in any way like the Nemesis system in the Middle Earth games, then it means absolutely nothing for DE unless they actually want to adopt more of the actual Nemesis system.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

I thought Capcom developed the Nemesis system first.

[lemonforest]

I realize that it's a distant cousin but what I was poking at is we've already seen big name companies throw good money after bad, even when there are obvious dissimilarities. For whatever reason they might be motivated by, it can still be tied up in court with the defendant forced to cease until a resolution has been made. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying it could happen.

Also wanted to mention, some pretty good talking points in the replies. Constructive criticism is always a good teacher. Thanks!

[Electropuncher]

On 2021-02-06 at 4:19 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Considering that the Grineer Lich and Corpus Queenpin systems do not function in any way like the Nemesis system in the Middle Earth games, then it means absolutely nothing for DE unless they actually want to adopt more of the actual Nemesis system.

 

8 hours ago, lemonforest said:

I realize that it's a distant cousin but what I was poking at is we've already seen big name companies throw good money after bad, even when there are obvious dissimilarities. For whatever reason they might be motivated by, it can still be tied up in court with the defendant forced to cease until a resolution has been made. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying it could happen.

Also wanted to mention, some pretty good talking points in the replies. Constructive criticism is always a good teacher. Thanks!

It's weird, because the worst part is that I can't actually find the proper patent (but that may because the USPTO doesn't work on weekends and the link hasn't been updated), but I am curious how much the systems overlap. Now, the exact verbiage of the patent is still kind of a mystery, and a lot of issues still exist. For starters: a judge could rule that a patent is too vague, and that the terms and scope of a patent need to be more focused. Or, a judge can rule that the patent isn't enforceable. In my previous post, I mentioned board gaming. TL;DR: Patenting a game mechanic or rule is virtually impossible, on grounds of "play is an abstraction." If Warner took TenCent to court for infringing on the Nemesis system (which I have no idea why it would) because of Warframe's Lich system, I feel that the case would go in TenCent's favor. It would be incredibly difficult for Warner to prove they had actually created something truly unique in court (which is half the reason this patent took five years to even go through), and especially since they waited until 2016 to even file the patent for a 2014 game means that they may have missed the window if any games came out that featured a similar system that were released in that time.

Some further reading: https://www.nme.com/en_au/news/gaming-news/warner-bros-successfully-patented-shadow-of-mordor-nemesis-system-2874815

Disclaimer: Again, I'm not a lawyer, and you wasted your time reading/commenting to this.