Warframe enemies make no sense.....

[ES-Flinter]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Yggranya:

Sentient Vs. warframe. Sentients are immune to most warframe abilities while sentient homing crap gets you every time. Not to mention the laser spin of doom. Sentient are not just resistant but outright IMMUNE. At that point the only thing a warframe has is a gun and how many hits it can take before it keels over. Considering how DE loves making enemies immune to warframe abilities, they are as far from gods of war as can be. Just another random mook with a gun.

Actually are sentients only immune/ partly immune/ adabtable to CC abilities which don't make use of rank 10 ice status proc. Debuffs and attacks do also work. But I agree that it should be changed. 

Btw. aren't even warframes random mooks with guns? They are probably the only species which can be killed with a stug in steelpath. XD

[-CdG-Zilchy]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Sentient Vs. warframe. Sentients are immune to most warframe abilities while sentient homing crap gets you every time. Not to mention the laser spin of doom. Sentient are not just resistant but outright IMMUNE. At that point the only thing a warframe has is a gun and how many hits it can take before it keels over. Considering how DE loves making enemies immune to warframe abilities, they are as far from gods of war as can be. Just another random mook with a gun.

Exodia contagion is our best solution currently. There are some CC abilities that can stop them, things like Radial blind work. I agree the laser light show is painful, operator void mode is the best means to avoid it.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

There is a real difference between vanilla starchart and endless waves < rotation c, and endless above lvl200 (rotation > c), that's even more significant with steelpath spawn rate.

At high level

Grineers : has slash and heat dot, heat AoE that stun / knockdown, some AoE grenades that 1hko (actually 2 with shieldgating). They don't have ennemies immunes to frames / powers and limited energy drain. They have a few ennemies that can drag you. Also a few ennemies bypass shield.

Infested : high melee damage, a lot of AoE, energy drain, drag and damages that ignore shield. A few ennemies resistant to powers (ancient disruptors)

Corpus : AoE spam, nullifier spam.

[RazerXPrime]

3 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

There is a real difference between vanilla starchart and endless waves < rotation c, and endless above lvl200 (rotation > c), that's even more significant with steelpath spawn rate.

At high level

Grineers : has slash and heat dot, heat AoE that stun / knockdown, some AoE grenades that 1hko (actually 2 with shieldgating). They don't have ennemies immunes to frames / powers and limited energy drain. They have a few ennemies that can drag you. Also a few ennemies bypass shield.

Infested : high melee damage, a lot of AoE, energy drain, drag and damages that ignore shield. A few ennemies resistant to powers (ancient disruptors)

Corpus : AoE spam, nullifier spam.

Corpus Railjack: Heat, Electric, Ice procs. AoE, Stuns and knockbacks. Those dudes/dudettes can hit hard.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

14 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

There is a real difference between vanilla starchart and endless waves < rotation c, and endless above lvl200 (rotation > c), that's even more significant with steelpath spawn rate.

At high level

Grineers : has slash and heat dot, heat AoE that stun / knockdown, some AoE grenades that 1hko (actually 2 with shieldgating). They don't have ennemies immunes to frames / powers and limited energy drain. They have a few ennemies that can drag you. Also a few ennemies bypass shield.

Infested : high melee damage, a lot of AoE, energy drain, drag and damages that ignore shield. A few ennemies resistant to powers (ancient disruptors)

Corpus : AoE spam, nullifier spam.

On top of that there's also more eximus at higher levels so more effects in play.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a 27 minutes, -CdG-Zilchy a dit :

On top of that there's also more eximus at higher levels so more effects in play.

This statement is true with all factions. I remember an infested survival in which I reached a point where there was more ancient eximus spawned than charger (and it wasn't 8h of endless)

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

This statement is true with all factions. I remember an infested survival in which I reached a point where there was more ancient eximus spawned than charger (and it wasn't 8h of endless)

Oh god yeh. Do you remember the days of using Covert lethality? It didn't work real well on the dogs so there ended up being a ton of those at max level. These days it's true instead of eximus because they both spawn more regularly at high level and because they're often more resistant to the attacks that clear rooms so more spawn while others are still alive.

[Loza03]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Warframe has only once created an enemy that needs to actually be engaged by a slight change of strategy. And that was Nullifiers. And players are still whining about them.

The way the game has shifted over the years has only cemented the enemies into a simple function; the quicker they die, the better it is for the player, so shovel them at us and the only engagement the players should have is choosing whether to shoot them in the head, or use an Ability and then shoot the survivors.

There is no cohesive way to engage with a faction because they aren't meant to be engaged with.

No single enemy is supposed to be in range, or on screen even, for longer than it takes to wind up and kill them. On modes like Survival, because of the RNG drops of Life Support, you need to be killing enemies in multiples per second, or using a loot ability to make the drops appear more often. Defense lasts longer the longer you take to kill, so does Exterminate, and even the modes where killing is not the objective like Interception, Mobile Defense or Defection, killing enemies in a wide area quickly is an extremely helpful function.

What you're looking for in this is engagement.

And while the Warframe game engine has all of the elements that should require it, such as shields that block directional damage, or fields that remove powers, enemies that group up or find cover depending on where we are, or high-rate-of-fire emplacements that knock players back, DE have never actually enforced these so that they actually have solid impediments to the player. Heck, DE even adjusts spawns of Eximus units to try and prevent the player's tactics overall, with more Leeches spawning if they're using Abilities to kill, and more Arctic Eximus if we're using high rate of fire ranged or melee, so that they can slow us down. But does this actually hurt us? Nope. These are maybe half a second longer to kill than the enemies around them. That's it.

This means that the player never needs to fire off their brain for that extra second to engage them.

And it's not helped by the drop system from enemies being exactly. the. same. no matter the level or complexity of the enemies. Because even if DE did implement more engagement, forcing the players to adapt and change tactics on the fly, what reason do we have to do that? The heavies drop the same resources as the chargers, with the rare exceptions of mods, meaning that even if the enemy is more difficult to kill, or takes more engagement to kill, what would be the incentive?

DE would need to rework their enemies entirely, as in from the ground up, to give them actual structure and power over us before they would be a cohesive whole that we could use strategies against.

As much as DE pretend there's a rock-paper-scissors balance to the three main factions, with one having shields and projectile weapons, one having armour and hitscan weapons, while the third is all offense with melee and status units... that's only from a design philosophy standing. It's not from a functional standing.

Because we're not playing rock-paper-scissors, we're playing rock-paper-scissors-nuke. And Nuke always wins.

This design has also come around and bitten them in the rear - as they've mentioned on Devstream 153, the sheer number of enemies that need to be spawned in order to make 'Quantity over Quality' seem meaningful doesn't work with their engine when they need to keep the AI active, without the normal performance-saving tricks, over 5 different places at once potentially, which limits their ability to make any sort of Railjack content, and probably doesn't help for other sorts of potential co-operative game modes.

Quantity over Quality has had its issues before this point, but now it's also peaked.

 

I think the sad part is how much DE have teased and played with this concept. I know they're capable of clever enemy designs or interactions - Alad V is a genuinely cool boss design, and did you know that Limbo's rift shuts down active eximus powers? DE are not bad designers. They've demonstrated an ability to make interesting enemy design. They've just failed to fully follow through with it.

[killerJoke66]

do you know which enemy is the strongest ? its the tendency to sleep when doing long runs in general xd , need to listen to some good music or else mind goes numb after a while

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Il y a 3 heures, -CdG-Zilchy a dit :

I agree the laser light show is painful, operator void mode is the best means to avoid it.

Grendel can eat the battalyst, and the bonewidow can grab them.

nom nom is always the answer  - Grendel

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Grendel can eat the battalyst, and the bonewidow can grab them.

nom nom is always the answer  - Grendel

Oh god, I need to go do this now. Didn't know you could eat Sentients haha. Do you know in beta testing they accidentally had Grendel eat Lephantis? How I wish I'd seen that.

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Oh god, I need to go do this now. Didn't know you could eat Sentients haha. Do you know in beta testing they accidentally had Grendel eat Lephantis? How I wish I'd seen that.

#releasethelephantisgut

[ReddyDisco]

if you do an emote before the hook hits you won't get hooked, put on your dancing shoes and go paint the town red

[Soy77]

20 hours ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

I remember a devstream last year, where Scott was mentioning that the infested would get a damage boost, so that players would have to keep their distance from those enemy types, at the time infested were pretty weak (well, more than they are now) so you couldn't just ram them over and would have to sort of be vary of them at close range. Now, not saying it worked but the idea did sound quite nice, that the infested are very powerful at close range and so you need to keep your distance while engaging them. It also made sense with the way infested enemies are always trying to close the distance between you and them, also ospreys exploding gas when you get too close to them. Now this is very important, since its having a profound impact on what kind of weapons I'm going to take into infested missions. Basically your telling me, hey, bring a weapon that has a fire rate, no falloff and you can use from a distance.

But then...... you introduce ancients and it makes some sense, the energy leaching and releasing of gas at close range, excellent (your reinforcing the whole, STAY AT A DISTANCE FROM THEM) but then.... you give them the harpoon function. Now your telling me, "you know what, stay at a distance, don't stay at a distance... I don't care"

Same thing with the corpus, I have absolutely no idea how the devs intend for us to approach this enemy type. Now the high fire rate and hit scans weapons mean that being at a distance is not the way to go... rather get close to them, since they are pretty weak. Telling me, being at a distance is a disadvantage so bring weapons that work in the close range. But then you throw in nulifiers an attack drones that drop no mo shield grenades, and all of a sudden the close range is the most disadvantageous area?

Same thing with the grineer, Should I bring high fire rate weapons? close range? does fall off matter?

And if there is no coherent strategy in dealing with each particular faction and the same weapons that are efficient against one faction are as efficient against all other factions, then why have different factions in the first place. Sure status and dmg types matter across, but they don't require any skill on the player's part as all is required is to switch mods. So you basically, have a copy/paste of each enemy type but.... with different skin. Looking as though each faction exists only for the lore of the game.

Apparently warframe isn't batman arkham. And everyone can take it as they will.

I played every arkham games, each and every single one of them are great. Each enemies have their own thing: the stupid ones are your punching bag and combo keeper. There are enemies who blocks, these guys you need to throw. There are enemies that carry weapons, my favorite move is to jump over and throw them out of balance. And you have to do the right move against the right enemies, you can't just brute force your attacks. no matter how hard you punch, the blocking enemies will always block it.

Later at the game, fights became a huge constantly flowing rock-paper-scissor game. And good players can keep the combo up, take the right decisions every time, feel like they're in the zone, like neo in the matrix.

============

Warframe? You take a weapon, put 7 forma on it and blast the heck whatever dare to stand in your way. If it doesn't die, put another forma and press your mouse button harder.

And it's not a bad thing.

[xxswatelitexx]

You know what I am thankful for? Them removing Leech Osprey Spam.

There was a point in time where there were so many leech ospreys spawning and their damage scaling simiply standing on the ground is instant death. 

[MqToasty]

23 hours ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

I remember a devstream last year, where Scott was mentioning that the infested would get a damage boost, so that players would have to keep their distance from those enemy types, at the time infested were pretty weak (well, more than they are now) so you couldn't just ram them over and would have to sort of be vary of them at close range. Now, not saying it worked but the idea did sound quite nice, that the infested are very powerful at close range and so you need to keep your distance while engaging them. It also made sense with the way infested enemies are always trying to close the distance between you and them, also ospreys exploding gas when you get too close to them. Now this is very important, since its having a profound impact on what kind of weapons I'm going to take into infested missions. Basically your telling me, hey, bring a weapon that has a fire rate, no falloff and you can use from a distance.

But then...... you introduce ancients and it makes some sense, the energy leaching and releasing of gas at close range, excellent (your reinforcing the whole, STAY AT A DISTANCE FROM THEM) but then.... you give them the harpoon function. Now your telling me, "you know what, stay at a distance, don't stay at a distance... I don't care"

Same thing with the corpus, I have absolutely no idea how the devs intend for us to approach this enemy type. Now the high fire rate and hit scans weapons mean that being at a distance is not the way to go... rather get close to them, since they are pretty weak. Telling me, being at a distance is a disadvantage so bring weapons that work in the close range. But then you throw in nulifiers an attack drones that drop no mo shield grenades, and all of a sudden the close range is the most disadvantageous area?

Same thing with the grineer, Should I bring high fire rate weapons? close range? does fall off matter?

And if there is no coherent strategy in dealing with each particular faction and the same weapons that are efficient against one faction are as efficient against all other factions, then why have different factions in the first place. Sure status and dmg types matter across, but they don't require any skill on the player's part as all is required is to switch mods. So you basically, have a copy/paste of each enemy type but.... with different skin. Looking as though each faction exists only for the lore of the game.

Have you considered the possibility that the entire design is to prevent you from finding a single coherent strategy (aka. META) to deal with a particular faction?  That the entire design is to force you to use your entire arsenal and be prepared for anything out in the field instead of "Press E to win"?  While I do not believe it is possible to completely get rid of META setups, I would say that, given the variety of frames and weapons I've seen in the field, the devs are fairly successful at this task.  Enough frames, weapons and strategies are sufficiently effective at most content, that you get to see a good variety when you play pubs.

The different enemies from different factions are just copy/paste of each other with different skin?  That's news to me.  Aside from the lowest ranked grunts, can you give me some examples?

[Invisibleaxeman]

The approach for all factions is the same, rip and tear, until it is done.

[CrimsonSpawn]

13 hours ago, MqToasty said:

Have you considered the possibility that the entire design is to prevent you from finding a single coherent strategy (aka. META) to deal with a particular faction? 

nope, since the devs themselves don't consider thats the way you play this game, not that you can't play that way if you want but even if we followed that logic that its just suppose to find the order in the chaos, then why have different factions?

13 hours ago, MqToasty said:

instead of "Press E to win"?

That's literally where the game is now.

13 hours ago, MqToasty said:

I would say that, given the variety of frames and weapons I've seen in the field, the devs are fairly successful at this task.  Enough frames, weapons and strategies are sufficiently effective at most content, that you get to see a good variety when you play pubs.

Well no, if your playing easy missions then you will se some level of variety in how players are approaching but enter any SP mission and I guarantee, 7 out of 10 times, its an inaros with a melee. Basically saying that when it really matters, majority of players will always stick to the meta

13 hours ago, MqToasty said:

The different enemies from different factions are just copy/paste of each other with different skin?  That's news to me.  Aside from the lowest ranked grunts, can you give me some examples?

Grineer Heavy gunner = Corpus techs. Grineer Scorch = Corpus Machinist, Sniper Creman = Balista, Powerfist = Shockwave Moa, Bursas = Any grineer unit with a shield..... need more?

[CrimsonSpawn]

13 hours ago, Invisibleaxeman said:

The approach for all factions is the same, rip and tear, until it is done.

Its just not all that much of a thrill to play.

[MqToasty]

17 hours ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

nope, since the devs themselves don't consider thats the way you play this game, not that you can't play that way if you want but even if we followed that logic that its just suppose to find the order in the chaos, then why have different factions?

Any evidence that devs actually want to promote a META and prevent variety?

17 hours ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

That's literally where the game is now.

Yes, melee has become overpowered in the game, and the devs are trying to address the problem.

17 hours ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

Well no, if your playing easy missions then you will se some level of variety in how players are approaching but enter any SP mission and I guarantee, 7 out of 10 times, its an inaros with a melee. Basically saying that when it really matters, majority of players will always stick to the meta

I call BS on that.  I've started playing pubs on SP, and barely see any Inaros, much less than 70%.  If anything, I do see too many Wukongs (I am guilty of this myself), and a handful of other frames depending on mission type.  Plus Steel Path is basically New Game+ / Hard Mode, so the game should not be balanced on that.  Your complaint was on factions being identical, which you have not provided any evidence for.

18 hours ago, CrimsonSpawn said:

Grineer Heavy gunner = Corpus techs. Grineer Scorch = Corpus Machinist, Sniper Creman = Balista, Powerfist = Shockwave Moa, Bursas = Any grineer unit with a shield..... need more?

Really?  I've never seen a Grineer Heavy Gunner launch a Shield Osprey or a Corpus Tech knock me down with a ground slam.  I've never seen a Grineer Scorch deploy Mine Ospreys or lob incendiary grenades at me.  I've never seen a "Balista" (sic - I assume you mean "Ballista") deploy crawlers to zap me while they shoot at me out in the open.  I've never seen a Shockwave MOA try to attack me via melee or a Powerfist shoot at me.  If you are going to claim these units are identical just because they fulfill a similar role on a team despite having very different equipment and tactics, then you might as well say all enemies identical because they try to kill you and get killed by you.