Can warframe's engine handle railjack?

[vanaukas]

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK so we were having a miscommunication in terms

What you posted, is that the enemies had their base damage lowered, but their Artificial Intelligence stayed the same. What I said, was that the enemy Artificial Intelligence stayed the same

 

44 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

I forgot to add that veterans complained and DE added elite enemies wich is why we still have those nasty units on high level:

EDIT:

I forgot to add that the AI behavior was changed later by DE:

 

 

 

[TARINunit9]

35 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

 

 

Ok that I do remember. But again, that has nothing to do with the staggerlocking, which was never nerfed. Fortuna enemies do it just the same now as they did on launch day

[vanaukas]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ok that I do remember. But again, that has nothing to do with the staggerlocking, which was never nerfed. Fortuna enemies do it just the same now as they did on launch day

But it has to do on how they reacted, wich is different now until you raise the level enough, at that point you get the old staggerlock fest. It can be reached faster on the temple of profit and inside, wich is hilarious to see (imho)

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

But it has to do on how they reacted, wich is different now until you raise the level enough, at that point you get the old staggerlock fest. It can be reached faster on the temple of profit and inside, wich is hilarious to see (imho)

...I think you have what happened backwards, because according to the very post you linked: the enemies DON'T ramp up with level now

[vanaukas]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

...I think you have what happened backwards, because according to the very post you linked: the enemies DON'T ramp up with level now

No, not at all. The changes were made on weapon accuracy being tied directly to the enemy level. The enemies still ramp up on how they behave but the accuracy has mroe variants besides level as before, read again:

Quote

AI Aimbots

Up until now in Warframe, the higher the enemy level, the better their accuracy. High-level enemies would be pinned at the best Accuracy they are capable of - not quite 100%, but getting pretty close! Things like your movement and Mods would reduce accuracy, but the potential for bad ‘Aimbot’ moments was too high. We have spread this progression across a greater range of AI now We are decoupling enemy accuracy from level to reduce the overall ‘Aimbot’ like behaviours you face at higher levels.

Why: This change allows us more accurate balancing of foes at higher levels. This change alone would be noticed by simply sometimes ‘getting hit less’, but in conjunction with the numerous other changes we are making to enemies, it is part of a holistic Refresh to the underlying mechanics behind Warframe’s enemies.

They've also changed some degree of "raction time", at least for stealth frames but IDK if this translates to other areas, AFAIK yes but I could be wrong:

Quote

NPCs now have about a second of delay before being able to perceive other players or NPCs that come out of invisibility, regardless of alert state. Previously, combat-state enemies would near instantly retarget in such cases. Seen in: 

 

Also, the regular Orb Vallis units behave different than Elite units AFAIK. In low tier bounties it seems to be lees stunlocks in general, but high tier bounties (like profit taker) spawn them regularly. Maybe it's my impression too.

[TARINunit9]

16 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

No, not at all. The changes were made on weapon accuracy being tied directly to the enemy level. The enemies still ramp up on how they behave but the accuracy has mroe variants besides level as before, read again:

They've also changed some degree of "raction time", at least for stealth frames but IDK if this translates to other areas, AFAIK yes but I could be wrong:

Also, the regular Orb Vallis units behave different than Elite units AFAIK. In low tier bounties it seems to be lees stunlocks in general, but high tier bounties (like profit taker) spawn them regularly. Maybe it's my impression too.

Again, a hell of a lot less has changed than you think has changed, and all of it in areas other than what you think it was. The stealth reaction time changes have nothing to do with Grapple-Shockwave Moas and Terra Trenchers

As for low-tier and high-tier bounties? Low-tier bounties have Terra Crewmen, and high-tier bounties have Terra Elite Crewmen. I just checked, both of them are in the game

[vanaukas]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

As for low-tier and high-tier bounties? Low-tier bounties have Terra Crewmen, and high-tier bounties have Terra Elite Crewmen. I just checked, both of them are in the game

At this point I think is clear where is the communication problem. Have a nice day.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, vanaukas said:

At this point I think is clear where is the communication problem. Have a nice day.

Agreed. Thank you for providing the data though.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Surbusken said:

I have to give massive respect, for the creativity of his excuse. I would hire you into PR, in a heartbeat.

First, operators die during ground combat all the time - unless you are saying it's a triple babushka, the operator is on the ship, controlling a spectral operator, who is itself controlling the warframe during combat.

Lore seems unclear but feels to me like operators just despawn and can't die.

Second, you are already using orbiter in combat zones, lore wise, you fly straight up to hostile planets and sit there exposed.

You aren't hiding away somewhere protected. Wouldn't it make more sense, if you at least put guns on your ship, if you are going to fly straight up to a corpus planet and just sit there?

Third, "unlimited respawns", 'account immortality" etc. are gameplay compromises we accept normally. Same reason a player can yank a rocket launcher out their back pocket, even if they have no pocket.

Fourth, when they started working on railjack in 2017? 2016? They could have done literally anything they wanted to fit whatever lore or plot. It's fantasy. You work it into a cutscene while people build railjack - with no restrictions or limitations on the story.

 

Finally, the whole core concept of railjack, from day 1, was "seamless".

Well, then, that makes it simple, you either make it seamless or give it up, if you can't do the job, it can't work.

So right out of the gates, everything has to be focused towards "seamless" and submit to it, bend around it and adjust to it.

 

It seems hilarious to me, developers trying to escape content islands end up stranded there, when the solutions are so obvious.

Knowing how invested people are into personalizing and customizing their orbiter and dojo?

How is it possible to sit there, and have no idea how to make people more attached to their railjack? HALF A DECADE LATER, lol...

That is the thing, they actually never enter the battlefield, they just manifest themselves, which is why they get slingshot back "into" the frame aswell as weakening it when they "die". They have the anchor in the frame and the link to their reservoir/transference throne. If those were to get blown up there would be no place to revert back to and if the throne gets destoyed the physical body of the tenno also gets blown up in the process.

While we use the Orbiter I'd assume it is different, since it isnt known to be a tenno vessel, which is why no guns on it is smart, since it slips past most things like a civilian ship. It is afterall a universe where space travel is common. Just as how I cant tell if a regular car has a criminal at the wheels or if avarage joe #251 is driving it. So in essence the tenno are hiding away protected, as protected as they can get. Which is why it was so dangerous when Budget Vader actually entered our ship and came across the tenno physically.

[Soy77]

On 2021-04-22 at 1:08 PM, Joezone619 said:

he was saying something along the lines of warframe not being able to handle enough AI's for the enemies, for the game to run both railjack in space, and enemies in the ships. 

[snip]

But again, i'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

I'm always notoriously known as the one who wants railjack with more space battles, and less warframe.

I mean... It's a taxi. Once people got all the rewards, we all could just skip the taxi part and go straight to play the good old regular warframe.

It's an unpopular thought, but you did asked for my thoughts...

[Surbusken]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is the thing, they actually never enter the battlefield, they just manifest themselves, which is why they get slingshot back "into" the frame aswell as weakening it when they "die". They have the anchor in the frame and the link to their reservoir/transference throne. If those were to get blown up there would be no place to revert back to and if the throne gets destoyed the physical body of the tenno also gets blown up in the process.

While we use the Orbiter I'd assume it is different, since it isnt known to be a tenno vessel, which is why no guns on it is smart, since it slips past most things like a civilian ship. It is afterall a universe where space travel is common. Just as how I cant tell if a regular car has a criminal at the wheels or if avarage joe #251 is driving it. So in essence the tenno are hiding away protected, as protected as they can get. Which is why it was so dangerous when Budget Vader actually entered our ship and came across the tenno physically.

Okay then.

Even better. Then they can astral project themselves on to a railjack, without being in any danger, as per your original exucse.

But what about about all the other points you didn't reply to.

 

Point #2?

Sitting inside the combat zone in the orbiter, while astral projecting down to the planet.

Do they have a live feed webcam watching the orbiter up in space, while fighting on the ground? So they can rush back to defend it?

And hoiw are they going to pilot the ship, when the warframe is on the planet, you can't use navigation tab without warping into the warframe.

If the orbiter is the only ship or vessel in the known galaxy holding tenno, as per your excuse, it can't also be "unknown innocent vessel no one would attack".

That is, assuming you can strech the lore, to say it's a peaceful, stable universe, where no one attacks anything, except identified tenno. Wouldn't you rather say it's a universe filled with instability and genentically modified psychopaths and warlords?

This is Cambodia, not Burbon Street.

But let's not kid ourselves here, the lack of work put in by the developers has nothing to do with lore - as much as you love talking about lore, which admittedly is entertaining for the moment.

When you say "I assumed", does that mean you made it up with no documentation? I mean, you can't use your own fantasy, to apologize for the developers.

[SneakyErvin]

27 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Okay then.

Even better. Then they can astral project themselves on to a railjack, without being in any danger, as per your original exucse.

But what about about all the other points you didn't reply to.

 

Point #2?

Sitting inside the combat zone in the orbiter, while astral projecting down to the planet.

Do they have a live feed webcam watching the orbiter up in space, while fighting on the ground? So they can rush back to defend it?

And hoiw are they going to pilot the ship, when the warframe is on the planet, you can't use navigation tab without warping into the warframe.

If the orbiter is the only ship or vessel in the known galaxy holding tenno, as per your excuse, it can't also be "unknown innocent vessel no one would attack".

That is, assuming you can strech the lore, to say it's a peaceful, stable universe, where no one attacks anything, except identified tenno. Wouldn't you rather say it's a universe filled with instability and genentically modified psychopaths and warlords?

This is Cambodia, not Burbon Street.

But let's not kid ourselves here, the lack of work put in by the developers has nothing to do with lore - as much as you love talking about lore, which admittedly is entertaining for the moment.

When you say "I assumed", does that mean you made it up with no documentation? I mean, you can't use your own fantasy, to apologize for the developers.

But that would still require a different place holding the actual throne or reservoir, which would mean the orbiter or something else being needed for them to be safe. Which is why the orbiter is our hub, since that is where the throne/reservoir is. We constantly project ourselves onto the RJ already while in combat.

What combat zone do we sit inside? The combat takes place on the planet, the tenno is in the orbiter, in his/her room. Few individuals in the known system knows that the orbiter is the home of a tenno or their reservoir. Tall dark and not so handsome is the only one that really knows it outside of Wally. And while we are doing the Warframe business we have a cephalon keeping the orbiter safe.

The only actual flaw of the RJ interaction is that our orbiter ends up in the proxima we engage with our RJ even though the RJ is a self sufficient vessel and the reach of the tenno is system wide, and the presence of the orbiter isnt needed at each planet in order for us to control the frames. We know this since we could fully control frames throughout all of Sol while sitting inside the moon, no matter if we reached into the void or just the different planets. The RJ system does however imply that we leave our orbiter far behind when doing RJ missions, since we actively head into it or reach it through our dojo and then use it to go to the warzones, just as we never transition from RJ warzones to the orbiter, we always go through the dojo or a neutral relay.

And while the system is filled with psycopaths, there is no reason to think they attack all civilian vessels, they would however likely destroy a unidentified gunboat without asking twice.

[SenorClipClop]

Bugs aren't really an indicator of an engine not being able to keep up with what's programmed. Bugs happen.

But I understand concern with the engine perhaps limiting the game, as well as dev concerns for the ability for users to run it. Warframe is free-to-play, meaning that in order for the company to continue making high-budget content and keep their staff, they have to rely on pulling in a large playerbase to account for a percentage of them that never (or rarely) spend money on the game. Part of pulling in a large playerbase means keeping the game accessible to people who have lower-end tech to play it on, so while certain modes like Free Roam and Railjack will lose low-end laptop Tenno, the game in general runs fairly cheaply.

[White_Matter]

It can but seeing how terrible RJ performance is and how clunky the gameplay is, it is safe to say that it shouldn't. 

WF is starting to show it's age and while DE has very original ideas and worthy ambitions, they are clearly being limited by the frame of an 8 year old game.

[Surbusken]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that would still require a different place holding the actual throne or reservoir, which would mean the orbiter or something else being needed for them to be safe. Which is why the orbiter is our hub, since that is where the throne/reservoir is. We constantly project ourselves onto the RJ already while in combat.

What combat zone do we sit inside? The combat takes place on the planet, the tenno is in the orbiter, in his/her room. Few individuals in the known system knows that the orbiter is the home of a tenno or their reservoir. Tall dark and not so handsome is the only one that really knows it outside of Wally. And while we are doing the Warframe business we have a cephalon keeping the orbiter safe.

The only actual flaw of the RJ interaction is that our orbiter ends up in the proxima we engage with our RJ even though the RJ is a self sufficient vessel and the reach of the tenno is system wide, and the presence of the orbiter isnt needed at each planet in order for us to control the frames. We know this since we could fully control frames throughout all of Sol while sitting inside the moon, no matter if we reached into the void or just the different planets. The RJ system does however imply that we leave our orbiter far behind when doing RJ missions, since we actively head into it or reach it through our dojo and then use it to go to the warzones, just as we never transition from RJ warzones to the orbiter, we always go through the dojo or a neutral relay.

And while the system is filled with psycopaths, there is no reason to think they attack all civilian vessels, they would however likely destroy a unidentified gunboat without asking twice.

If you can move the tomb or spawnpoint, why would you move around in space at all, including into hostile planet areas. Everytime you play a map, you parked in front of a hostile planet...

Logically, if you can astral project, you'd bury and hide your tomb as deep and isolated as possible?

Do you see vampires riding their coffin around in a run-down truck, parking it right outside the police station, before they go in, because it isn't a "conspicuous vehicle", so they are probably safe.

I'd say your fantasy pushes the narrative in the opposite direction, it makes even less sense, when you think about it.

... but let's say the lore was rock solid. The orbiter is the one vessel that's indestructable, the tomb must be on there period because lore.

 

Gameplay wise, I would still have a relay, a dojo or whatever as spawnpoint though, right?

The point in question is getting people a reason to care about railjack, isn't it?

Where does it say you can't have several bases, several spawnpoints? Haven't people been aksing for foundry etc. in dojo, for forever?

Tomb has to stay on orbiter, in your fantasy, ok.

But what does that mean, that doesn't mean anything. You keep the tomb on orbiter and move the gameplay, then your narrative is intact.

According to your story, the only thing we can't do is move the tomb to the railjack - we can still move everything else.

 

 

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

If you can move the tomb or spawnpoint, why would you move around in space at all, including into hostile planet areas. Everytime you play a map, you parked in front of a hostile planet...

You seem to be missing the fact that the Orbiter is cloaked. A moving concealed target is far better than a fortified stationary one, especially when your opposition has a far greater capacity for claiming and holding territory than you.

 

4 hours ago, Surbusken said:

And hoiw are they going to pilot the ship, when the warframe is on the planet, you can't use navigation tab without warping into the warframe.

Factually untrue. You can use the Navigation menu while in Operator form whether it's the regular or Proxima solar map.

[DrivaMain]

3 hours ago, White_Matter said:

WF is starting to show it's age and while DE has very original ideas and worthy ambitions, they are clearly being limited by the frame of an 8 year old game.

DE owns the engine. They can always update it to wave those technical issues away.  If DE uses the same evolution engine back in 2013 we wouldn’t have open worlds. It’s just that Railjack is too demanding to be able to run multiple mission instances. Maybe in a few yes where main stream budget CPUs have 8 cores minimum we can see DE applying it. Right now they probably limit it for performance reason and keep the game playable for low end users.

[Surbusken]

30 minutes ago, Corvid said:

You seem to be missing the fact that the Orbiter is cloaked. A moving concealed target is far better than a fortified stationary one, especially when your opposition has a far greater capacity for claiming and holding territory than you.

 

Factually untrue. You can use the Navigation menu while in Operator form whether it's the regular or Proxima solar map

The tenno have unlimited cloaking techonolgy?

Yes I defnitely missed that cutscene, what are we doing flying around a targetable railjack or using frames without stealth.

Then all the points I brought up so far but with added on, unlimited cloaking plot holes. We are now working cross space astral projection and unlimited cloaking technolgy, as an excuse, for not adding gameplay to railjack.

But yes you were right, operator can click navigation tab in orbiter without warping to warframe. The point being brought up there is having to defend the ship, by bringing it until hostile areas.

Which the other guy said was fine to do, because the oribter had no guns, they didn't look hostiles.

But obviously with unlimited cloaking technology, the whole debate is wrong.

When we have unlimited cloaking technology, it's not even a question of not taking the orbiter to a safe distance, rather we should use it in combat instead of the railjack.

Or maybe more logically, create drone ships with unlimited cloaking techonolgy operated by AI, from a safe distance.

I feel like, any AI, and especially a militarized one would probably focus on increading and upgrading technology, re-inforcing weapons etc. so I don't wtf that stupid bot is doing spamming out the same 4 jokes everyday, instead of getting to work datamining weapons upgrades.

 

The lore in itself naturally makes no sense but what we have been debating here is lore blocking obvious gameplay features, which like doubly if not triple overstretched.

You can change the lore to fit whatever gameplay for example. It's fantasy, so the limit is... what you can come up with, right?

 

But yes I was totally wrong on both lore accounts, I can admit that with zero shame, lol.

[Joezone619]

50 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

DE owns the engine. They can always update it to wave those technical issues away.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that insanely difficult and expensive? To the point where they'd essentially be making warframe 2.0? Again I could be wrong here, but I've heard that kinda stuff isn't easy to just do.

[DrivaMain]

14 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that insanely difficult and expensive? To the point where they'd essentially be making warframe 2.0? Again I could be wrong here, but I've heard that kinda stuff isn't easy to just do.

They’ve updated the rendering engine for.. I don’t know almost 8 times now? They’ve added volumetric lighting, deferred rendering, fog, DX12 support, better material rendering, etc.

I can’t say for AI and Gameplay part of the engine, but we can safely assume they do still update it.

If I recall DE said in an interview back in around 2018-2019 “If Warframe had sequels, we would be in Warframe 4 right now”.

Warframe is a huge success. I am sure DE can invest that money into game engine development. [DE]Steve said they have game engine engineers in the team.

[Corvid]

6 hours ago, Surbusken said:

The tenno have unlimited cloaking techonolgy?

Yes I defnitely missed that cutscene, what are we doing flying around a targetable railjack or using frames without stealth.

It's one of the intercepted Grineer transmissions. Tenno Ships use a Void Mask that keeps them from being detected. I also never said it was "Unlimited", so maybe stop putting words in my mouth. The ship is concealed in the Void according to Ordis, which presumably inhibits its ability to interact directly with realspace.

As for why we use frames without stealth, you do realise that there are plenty of frames that possess stealth functions, right? If you don't elect to use them, perhaps consider that your reasons for doing so and the in-universe ones might align.

6 hours ago, Surbusken said:

When we have unlimited cloaking technology, it's not even a question of not taking the orbiter to a safe distance, rather we should use it in combat instead of the railjack.

Because the Orbiter is a logistics/support vessel, and is thus not suited for direct combat? You also seem to forget that we do have a cloaking system available for Railjacks, it's just temporary.

6 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Or maybe more logically, create drone ships with unlimited cloaking techonolgy operated by AI, from a safe distance.

After what happened with the Sentients?

Yeah, no.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Surbusken said:

If you can move the tomb or spawnpoint, why would you move around in space at all, including into hostile planet areas. Everytime you play a map, you parked in front of a hostile planet...

Logically, if you can astral project, you'd bury and hide your tomb as deep and isolated as possible?

Do you see vampires riding their coffin around in a run-down truck, parking it right outside the police station, before they go in, because it isn't a "conspicuous vehicle", so they are probably safe.

I'd say your fantasy pushes the narrative in the opposite direction, it makes even less sense, when you think about it.

... but let's say the lore was rock solid. The orbiter is the one vessel that's indestructable, the tomb must be on there period because lore.

 

Gameplay wise, I would still have a relay, a dojo or whatever as spawnpoint though, right?

The point in question is getting people a reason to care about railjack, isn't it?

Where does it say you can't have several bases, several spawnpoints? Haven't people been aksing for foundry etc. in dojo, for forever?

Tomb has to stay on orbiter, in your fantasy, ok.

But what does that mean, that doesn't mean anything. You keep the tomb on orbiter and move the gameplay, then your narrative is intact.

According to your story, the only thing we can't do is move the tomb to the railjack - we can still move everything else.

 

 

I'm not sure what you are arguing about really. Are you willingly ignoring that the frames are physical constructs that need to move to a planet no matter if it is pre- or post-reservoir in the game? So obviously the orbiter which is the same in both cases need to move. That doesnt make it any more smart to suddenly equip it with guns or move the reservoir to your active gunboat that is the railjack, since the reservoir (your space magic anchor), the tenno and the ship would be blown up in one go.

There are no reservoirs or anchor points on the relays, the dojo or anywhere else. There is a specific storyline centering around the tenno of the story, our tenno, and that tenno has his/her anchorpoint at Lua to begin with and now in the orbiter.

And yeah, you are right, we cant move the reservoir to the RJ but everything else could move there and fill the same purpose it does in the orbiter. Though even there I'm not sure how smart it would be to house all your tenno specific gadgets and stations, along with the helminth onto something you take into active combat. Neither of those things are really throwaway things that you buy at the nearest K-Relay or Clem's Hardware. The orbiter is a covert base of operations, an RJ would just never fill that role.

 

[Surbusken]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not sure what you are arguing about really. Are you willingly ignoring that the frames are physical constructs that need to move to a planet no matter if it is pre- or post-reservoir in the game? So obviously the orbiter which is the same in both cases need to move. That doesnt make it any more smart to suddenly equip it with guns or move the reservoir to your active gunboat that is the railjack, since the reservoir (your space magic anchor), the tenno and the ship would be blown up in one go.

There are no reservoirs or anchor points on the relays, the dojo or anywhere else. There is a specific storyline centering around the tenno of the story, our tenno, and that tenno has his/her anchorpoint at Lua to begin with and now in the orbiter.

And yeah, you are right, we cant move the reservoir to the RJ but everything else could move there and fill the same purpose it does in the orbiter. Though even there I'm not sure how smart it would be to house all your tenno specific gadgets and stations, along with the helminth onto something you take into active combat. Neither of those things are really throwaway things that you buy at the nearest K-Relay or Clem's Hardware. The orbiter is a covert base of operations, an RJ would just never fill that role.

 

Well, since the other guy said the lore is we have unlimited cloaking technology, I feel everything said so far is pointless.

For instance, your whole point about the orbiter not getting attacked because the enemy thinks it's a harmless vessel.

That on top of that, the other guy is now also saying the orbiter behind unlimited cloak, astral projecting from inside the void.

It's a little silly to get hung up on made up details, you people don't even agree on, what is the story exactly, do you even know - but that's not even the point.

When they created railjack, maybe even go way back, to when they originally had the idea of adding space combat to warframe, they had the time then, to work the lore around the gameplay.

Since it's a video game, I will go as far as to say gameplay matters a lot more than lore but no one is saying they had to make any compromises.

Then after the fact, you still have literally unlimited fantasy to fit the story to the gameplay. So "because lore", can never be an excuse to not create good gameplay. You can change the lore any way you see fit, it can be anything. 

I never heard a lore fanatic say something negative about official lore, so there is no such thing as bad writting, which you proved this whole conversation.

Railjack died, that's the reality of the situation. They want it to be 'seamless' and they want people to be invested into their railjacks. I feel like, you know you can't defend it not making sense in terms of gameplay, so you are reaching to assign some grand masterplan and order to it.

But what it is, is a hilarious and embarrassing oversight to the most painfully obvious feature, it shouldn't even have to be said. It's just 48,000%^56 obvious.

 

 

[Corvid]

22 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Well, since the other guy said the lore is we have unlimited cloaking technology,

 

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

I also never said it was "Unlimited", so maybe stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Corvid]

30 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Railjack died, that's the reality of the situation.

The "Reality" of the situation is that you seem obstinately opposed to them even attempting to build on it based on your own gameplay preferences, and I suspect that you would be making this argument regardless of its level of success. As it stands, DE seem happy to continue working on it, so they evidently see it as more of a success than you do.