Unpopular Opinion: Rolling Guard + Decaying Dragon Key + Shield Gate Meta is Dumb and Shouldn't Exist

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

21 hours ago, xZeromusx said:

I just remember that being the big complaint about shields being useless before the shield rework, and that the devs were talking about that issue in I believe it was Devstream 139. The corrupted corpus enemies would throw grenades, specifically in the high level void missions, that would often one shot squishy frames, and the grenades were not able to be tracked like they are now. But, now they can be tracked AND shield gated through, which makes tracking the grenades redundant and easy to simply face roll. A one shot threat, like the grenades, aren't a problem when player skill can allow a player to avoid it.

Also, what makes maxing mods hard? It's literally just credits and Endo which are pretty easy to acquire.

You still have 1 shot threats of being gunned down in high level content while your aim gliding through the air. Like youre not going to survive long in solo play with a banshee in steel path without some serious help. You might not be able to survive for long in a random squad either, for instance if you get a squad of players using Ash or some other frame that cant really protect you.

So like shield gating is supposed to step in to give you a chance. And with it, you still here about players saying Sevagoth is "too squishy"

So like, i dont see it something thats too op if thats possible. For certain warframes like Chroma and Valkyr dont need it at all, maybe its too op for them, but for others helpful and fair. I do think there should be further balancing but i wouldnt say its something that hurts gameplay when you can bring once extremly squishy warframes into level100 missions now

Things like rolling guard on the other hand

[xZeromusx]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

You still have 1 shot threats of being gunned down in high level content while your aim gliding through the air. Like youre not going to survive long in solo play with a banshee in steel path without some serious help. You might not be able to survive for long in a random squad either, for instance if you get a squad of players using Ash or some other frame that cant really protect you.

So like shield gating is supposed to step in to give you a chance. And with it, you still here about players saying Sevagoth is "too squishy"

So like, i dont see it something thats too op if thats possible. For certain warframes like Chroma and Valkyr dont need it at all, maybe its too op for them, but for others helpful and fair. I do think there should be further balancing but i wouldnt say its something that hurts gameplay when you can bring once extremly squishy warframes into level100 missions now

Things like rolling guard on the other hand

Well, in the case of Banshee, when I strapped Gloom on her, she wrecks her way even through Steel Path. IDK why people say Sevagoth is too squishy, particularly after the changes made to Gloom.

As for Rolling Guard, changing it could also effectively break this combo as well. Maybe instead of invulnerability, make it a shield recovery or something. Shield recovery wouldn't entirely destroy it, but it would effectively weaken the combo.

[B4HEK]

simple braindead solution for you all: make decaying dragon key remove shields completely...

To be fair, you can only play after lvl 1000 relatively comfortable in solo if you use some completely broken sh*t (shieldgate among this list)

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

14 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

simple braindead solution for you all: make decaying dragon key remove shields completely...

Alternatively, make it remove shield gating. In either case, I'd run the key on my Valk 24/7 to get more energy out of Rage on her.

But speaking of Valk, and I think I've mentioned it in this thread before, shield gating should in some way be tied to your max shield, because it's stupefying that Valkyr is theoretically the best shield gate tank now and not, say Hildryn. Low max shields should not be rewarded.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

The whole point of shield gating, as I saw it, was in part, to say "as long as you have shields, one shot won't take you down (or even a rapid amount in a short time, because burst damage like that doesn't always happen in 1 hit, which is why there is an invulnerable period to take into account all the smaller hits in a small window, otherwise shield gating might as well not exist.) ... it was NOT to make high shield frames even stronger, or even to encourage high shields. It wasn't the intent of the feature.

I see no problem with the existing shield gating feature. The Dragon Key interaction is a neat thing that players found and used. It's still a very active play style, from my understanding, since I don't use this interaction myself, and I see no problem with people using it.

Just seems like people want to stamp out other players' fun, because they're not playing the way they think they should be playing. That's not nice.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

it was NOT to make high shield frames even stronger, or even to encourage high shields. It wasn't the intent of the feature.

Was the intention to make low shield frames even stronger, or even to encourage low shields? 🤔🤔🤔

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Encourage was the wrong word: benefit would fit better.

It was entirely to benefit low shield frames, yes. See that as encouragement if that's your perspective.

I still never use it... so meh.

[Teoarrk]

12 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

How else are you going to survive as a massively squishy warframe against a bunch of heavy gunners at long range, or in an open space?

Make shield dr scalable, or capping the amount of shields that can be taken in a single hit.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Encourage was the wrong word: benefit would fit better.

It was entirely to benefit low shield frames, yes. See that as encouragement if that's your perspective.

I didn't know Valkyr needed that, but ok.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

8 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

Make shield dr scalable, or capping the amount of shields that can be taken in a single hit.

Thts fair, i used to want the damage cap too as it was the only it would really make sense to build more shields. May need a slight invuln period though of at least 0.3-0.5seconds cause geting hit with 200 damage from 5 enemies still is basically a 1 shot for most warframe's shields.

I could do that, augur mods would be a tad bit more useful and decaying dragon key would become an issue rather than a benefit again. Is good idea

[fr4gb4ll]

uh great.... i stumble out of the door and find a ѕhitstorm thread right on he other side (i knew the sun was lying to me all along ^^)

but as for my piece of 'wisdome' about the 'issue' here:

sure the combo is somewhat lame but certainly not an exploite as some wisecracker called it here - it's 'just' a typical case of a complex system (the game in this case) being too much so for its creators (DE) to see in all the aspects... this happens to so many 'projects' that i won't even bother to count anymore. DE simply didn't though of what could happen if you put in a change 'A' and then combine it with one or two other existing parts (B and C) and get fubar as a result... i can't even blame them for it and so shouldn't anyone else for everyone of those people would have made the same or worse mess, that i'm sure of.

should DE change something about it? absolutly and likely they will as soon as they notice this little piece of art and found a useable solution to it. as for what to do in the meantime, i would suggest the annoying tactic: just let the game automatically unequip all dragon keys after each mission done so the play has to go into the arsenal every time and put the damn thing in again - it's also great for all who regulary forget them after some derelict un-fun. and yes, that will also 'hurt' those chromas who somewhat relay of it as well, so so what? the keys also where never meant to this little stunt either and it not that they can't use it anymore, they just will feel the pain in the arse now. for a 'full' solution for the (seemingly) problem, i somewhat shudder new mess it will create... but i'm also curious in nature (maybe in a sick way, but whatever ^^) and so likely find that 'solution' funny too.

oh, and for all you crusader (on both sides of this): if we really would go and hunt down all those little tricks that never where meant to be the way the player use them, the game would get pretty dull, pretty fast so i thing one should complain about those exploits that are really are exploits and not just logical flaws in design - let people use them till they get ironed out and stop pointing fingers needlessly - afterall, next time the witchhunt might look right at your own favorite way of playing... and then it's ѕhitstorm time outside again.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

7 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

just let the game automatically unequip all dragon keys after each mission done so the play has to go into the arsenal every time and put the damn thing in again

Ah yes, let's recommend a change that hurts those who use the keys for their intended purpose more than those who equip them for Steel Path Survival runs and similar... Thank you for sharing this

7 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

piece of 'wisdome'

 

[Traumtulpe]

On 2021-05-18 at 2:26 AM, Berzerkules said:

hield gating is 100% unnecessary in almost every situation. Most players don't even know what it means and the ones that do don't build for it because they never had to before. Shield gating excels in endurance but besides that you might as well just run a regular build. 

Frames can still be built with health, armor and healing and go for a 2-3 hour SP survival without intentionally using shield gating. Some frames will do better than others because they have higher base stats. Healing Return and Adaptation can carry a frame for a long time.

Saryn has quite good armor and health. I use all 3 Umbra mods on her. That's quite tanky, right? Nope, about 30 minutes into Steel Path Mot I start getting oneshot. Literally one guy killing me in one shot from full health.

There are only CC, SG, and 90% DR. Since enemies have 0ms reaction times and instant kill hitscan shots (I love getting onetapped the very instant I exit operator, 30m away from my Warframe from void mode) any Warframe without permanent hard CC or 90% DR, of which there are many, needs shield gating.

Shield gating might be cheese, but at least it costs energy and needs you to react properly.

If you want you remove it, you have to completely remove any DR and give all enemies resistance against CC, else all you did was remove options.

[B4HEK]

12 часов назад, fr4gb4ll сказал:

just let the game automatically unequip all dragon keys after each mission done so the play has to go into the arsenal every time and put the damn thing in again

Rlly?! I use dec dragon key because i want faster energy gain from adrenaline/rage, shieldgate is secondary... If this would ever be implemented... I`ll just hope it won`t.

[fr4gb4ll]

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Ah yes, let's recommend a change that hurts those who use the keys for their intended purpose more than those who equip them for Steel Path Survival runs and similar... Thank you for sharing this

 

12 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

and yes, that will also 'hurt' those chromas who somewhat relay of it as well, so so what? the keys also where never meant to this little stunt either

'intended' purpose? my arse... just because some people 'think' it is, doesn't prove a damn bit - but ofc, if you can link me an official statement from someone over at DE who said that at any time in the last 8 years, i'll reverse my statement about it, pinky-promise...

[fr4gb4ll]

21 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

Rlly?! I use dec dragon key because i want faster energy gain from adrenaline/rage, shieldgate is secondary... If this would ever be implemented... I`ll just hope it won`t.

yeah, and i sure hope you weren't one of these 'crusaders' her in this thread (or any similar ones) that ever complained about some game mechanics being exploits, cheats overpowered, etc... because if so, you're a hypocrite.

and to make it clear: personally, i don't give a rat fart about those things - they can be left alone for all i care as long as no other players are harmed (which in most cases are not even IF DE changes them - they often do that for totally different reasons).

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

23 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

'intended' purpose? my arse

I'm not surprised you think that's where the keys are supposed to go. However, if we go by [DE]Megan's announcement from 2013, and I've marked the important bits to help you out, we see this:

Quote

Are you ready to enter the Orokin Vaults? Hidden treasure awaits!
Here's what you'll need to do:

CRAFT A DRAGON KEY

- Craft one or all of the Corrupted Vault Keys - also known as Dragon Keys (...)

EQUIP YOUR DRAGON KEY

(...)

- Remember, each Key has debilitating effects on Warframes: (...)

- These negative effects will be removed from whichever player’s key is used in the Vault.

(...)

- There are four different Vaults within the Derelicts, and four corresponding Dragon Keys. When you find the Vault, only the corresponding key will open the door and consume the key.

(...)

Prepare your Keys and enter the Orokin Vaults!

I apologize on the behalf of the devs that they didn't make it clear enough that the keys released in the same update as the vaults are intended to open the vaults. I'm sorry they didn't use the exact phrasing "the keys are intended to open the vaults", but I imagine that a forum post that in summary says "to enter the Orokin Vaults, use the corresponding Vault Key" would be sufficient for most of us. But go ahead, amuse me some more.

[Berzerkules]

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Saryn has quite good armor and health. I use all 3 Umbra mods on her. That's quite tanky, right? Nope, about 30 minutes into Steel Path Mot I start getting oneshot. Literally one guy killing me in one shot from full health.

There are only CC, SG, and 90% DR. Since enemies have 0ms reaction times and instant kill hitscan shots (I love getting onetapped the very instant I exit operator, 30m away from my Warframe from void mode) any Warframe without permanent hard CC or 90% DR, of which there are many, needs shield gating.

Shield gating might be cheese, but at least it costs energy and needs you to react properly.

If you want you remove it, you have to completely remove any DR and give all enemies resistance against CC, else all you did was remove options.

I've taken a full umbral Saryn 2h+ in a SP survival without building for shield gating. I did replace Molt with Shooting Gallery and used the Muzzle Flash augment though, I had good cc and wasn't getting shot at often. I did just get one shot several times. It's doable but, I still prefer shield gating builds. I've taken Shooting Gallery Saryn using shield gating build ~6h SP survival and it was a much more enjoyable experience. I can actually play as long as I want to, I feel that my builds and how I play is more important that what lvl the enemies are or how much damage they do. 

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

I did replace Molt with Shooting Gallery and used the Muzzle Flash augment though

I did the same, but with Miasma. Which means that you flashbang everything every few seconds, in other words permanent CC.

9 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

There are only CC, SG, and 90% DR.

[fr4gb4ll]

On 2021-05-31 at 10:01 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I'm not surprised you think that's where the keys are supposed to go. However, if we go by [DE]Megan's announcement from 2013, and I've marked the important bits to help you out, we see this:

I apologize on the behalf of the devs that they didn't make it clear enough that the keys released in the same update as the vaults are intended to open the vaults. I'm sorry they didn't use the exact phrasing "the keys are intended to open the vaults", but I imagine that a forum post that in summary says "to enter the Orokin Vaults, use the corresponding Vault Key" would be sufficient for most of us. But go ahead, amuse me some more.

ah well, now i see what wrong: we talked about different things - you, about that the key would have to be re-equipt even if you only wanted to fo the 'intended' purpose of opening a vault and me, thinking you meant to use them as 'intended' de-buff (hence my commend about the intention of the keys). sorry for the missunderstanding. ofc, you are right that it would be annoying for those who do multiple vault runs and each time had to re-equip them... ususally (when i still needed to do them and when we only could carry one key) i only had one ready key at hand to prevent getting the key debuff and the debuff from the vault too.... ofc, that was also before certain frame were available who don't give a damn about any debuffs at all...

so yeah, i only meant the unintended uses of keys the whole time (and forgot the intended ones ^^)

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

3 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

ah well, now i see what wrong: we talked about different things - you, about that the key would have to be re-equipt even if you only wanted to fo the 'intended' purpose of opening a vault and me, thinking you meant to use them as 'intended' de-buff (hence my commend about the intention of the keys).

Oh, gotcha! Yeah, that clears things up, haha. I've been in some weird forum threads lately, so while it baffled me that (as I interpreted it) someone would suggest that opening vaults wasn't the intended use, it also didn't occur to me that we might just be talking past each other.

I've also been a bit stressed with exams lately, so sorry about that ^^'

[Pinegulf]

On 2021-05-04 at 9:01 PM, SenorClipClop said:

• The synergy isn't fun outside of its effectiveness and is too strong to ignore.

Precisely. It's overpowered, and it's boring af! If you got the patience to do it, then I can't punish you. 

[Doomelf]

 

Contrary to most player's beliefs and preferences, shield gating was the best thing that happened in Warframe for a couple of reasons:

1. It frees up multiple slots in your build by removing the necessity to use normal survivability mods and focus on actually useful ones like augments, Natural Talent, which is needed on almost every frame, Rolling Guard for status removal and additional safety net to keep you alive when enemies begin to deal too much damage / one shot and ones that increase your duration / efficiency / range and strength.

2. Mods that increase your health, armor, shield and reduce damage are just fine for 99% of WF content, but due to how enemy scaling works in this game they fall off. Most players don't like endurance runs or staying long in Steel Path so I get not wanting or needing to use shield gating, but for those who want to do them it is a necessity to prevent getting one shotted at high levels.

3. On the matter of Decaying Dragon Key, it is an invaluable component to make shield gating actually work for survivability at high levels. If a full shield breaks you get 1.3 seconds of invulnerability, which is enough to quickly cast an ability and survive, whereas the 0.3 seconds on a partial shield is not even with Natural Talent as almost all abilities will still have longer cast times. At high levels your shield will break instantly and unless you replenish it with things like Brief Respite, the Augur set bonus and certain warframe abilities you will get one shotted. The reduced shield capacity from the key makes it possible to keep up with shields going down and replenishing them in time.

4. With normal survivability mods you can sit and tank damage, whereas using a shield gating setup requires you to pay attention to your shield, debuffs, enemies around you and quickly take action based on the situation.

Until the day comes, when DE adjusts enemy scaling damage to fall in line with normal survivability mods and allow you to survive with them at high levels shield gating and the key will remain a necessity. With how things have remained for so many years that day is not likely to come anytime soon if ever. Changing the way shield gating works or the key in the state we are right now will kill endurance runs and such a move will only serve to question DE's balance capability even more, which leads to people wondering if DE even plays their own game with how they handle certain things.

 

[Doomelf]

By frames that can survive past 2h in an endurance run I suppose you mean Disruption or something in Steel Path, because 2h in anything else is not endurance at all. In a fast Disruption run you start seeing level cap enemies in about 2 - 2:30 hours, while normal Survival takes more than 8 hours. Not speaking from personal experience, but from observing other players, I've seen people get one shotted from level ~ 500 - 1k.

[(PSN)BigDaddyKula2]

Why must Rolling Guard, Decaying Dragon Key and Shield Gate be considered an unintentional design flaw. Perhaps, they knew the result and it’s benefits in Steel Path at higher levels. Perhaps, the issue is your interpretation of you believing you know more than the Devs and Engineers. Simply, if you don’t like the effect on tile sets under level 100, then do not use it. There are over a billion different options in warframes. The only issue I see is the complainers. Get over yourselves. You are not that important except to yourself.