Unpopular Opinion: Rolling Guard + Decaying Dragon Key + Shield Gate Meta is Dumb and Shouldn't Exist

[SenorClipClop]

Title. Supporting points:

• Rolling Guard, Decaying Dragon Key and Shield Gate are all fine on their own, but their combined effects make things lame.
• Decaying Dragon Key should be a handicap, not a keystone to making us invincible.
  • I understand and support using it to reduce Shields on a frame for certain purposes, such as building Chroma's damage faster or leaning on Rage/Adrenaline.
• The combination of these features results in the technically-tankiest build not using any Health or Armor mods and actively hindering its Shields.
• You are invulnerable as long as you roll every handful of seconds and that's it. Low-effort highest-output invalidates pretty much every other option.
• The synergy isn't fun outside of its effectiveness and is too strong to ignore.

[Kontrollo]

Shield Gate was a mistake.

 

And I'm not sure being against the combo is an unpopular opinion.

[(PSN)Beluga_0]

I totally agree, eventough I haven´t experienced a lot of players doing this method on console

[Leqesai]

The real offender is the dragon key. This is obviously an exploit and quite honestly I am amazed it has not been fixed at this point.

[BiancaRoughfin]

29 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Title. Supporting points:

• Rolling Guard, Decaying Dragon Key and Shield Gate are all fine on their own, but their combined effects make things lame.
• Decaying Dragon Key should be a handicap, not a keystone to making us invincible.
  • I understand and support using it to reduce Shields on a frame for certain purposes, such as building Chroma's damage faster or leaning on Rage/Adrenaline.
• The combination of these features results in the technically-tankiest build not using any Health or Armor mods and actively hindering its Shields.
• You are invulnerable as long as you roll every handful of seconds and that's it. Low-effort highest-output invalidates pretty much every other option.
• The synergy isn't fun outside of its effectiveness and is too strong to ignore.

I agree. A think a Solution would be [DE] disable Dragon Key`s effects on missions outside Deimos/Derelict missions where vaults spawn.

15 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Shield Gate was a mistake.

Corpus Cameras taking 2 hits to break no matter the weapon...

Replacing Self Damage with Self Stagger was also a big mistake, it opened up the path for brain dead playstyles where people run pointing explosive weapons like the Bramma at their feet and spamming the fire button.

[(XBOX)CaptainSeth5423]

7 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I agree. A think a Solution would be [DE] disable Dragon Key`s effects on missions outside Deimos/Derelict missions where vaults spawn.

You forgot those riven challenges...

[Bakaguya-sama]

Shield Gate is a massive mistake.  

Let us be clear here: Shields are still mostly worthless. Health, Armor, Adaptation and various forms of health healing still dominates in 99% of the game content.  Shield gate did nothing to make shield viable. It did nothing to encourage people to build shield. In fact, it incentivize against building shield.  

In the 1% of cases, it is a part of a cheese tactic that grants immortality, and is only relevant to an extremely minuscule subset of players. The game is never meant to be played at lvl 1000 or 9999 or however many hours these people have in free time.   

DE should just attach a hard 15-20 seconds cooldown to shield gate.  Explore other avenues to make shields viable.  

Imagine if parkour actions grant bonus Damage Reduction to shield, like up to 90%.  Or bonus DR on stealth kills. Or bonus DR on headshots with single target weapons. Or bonus ability strength/ability efficiency based on current shield levels. Something that rewards more active playstyles. Something that permits squishier Warframes to have better survivability, while not straight up break the game and grant immortality.  

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Health, Armor, Adaptation and various forms of health healing still dominates in 99% of the game content

Just to be clear here for anyone who might be confused by what you're saying. Adaptation does reduce damage to shields. 

[Rawbeard]

people actually need that to survive? huh. in that case, let them. doesn't harm you, does it?

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, Rawbeard said:

people actually need that to survive? huh. in that case, let them. doesn't harm you, does it?

I'm of the opinion it harms the game in general.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

I'm of the opinion it harms the game in general.

 I agree.

the dragon key interaction with shield gating is exploitive. Plain and simple. Don't leave exploits in the game just because they don't "harm" those who don't use them... This is ridiculous...

[Rawbeard]

3 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I'm of the opinion it harms the game in general.

how? I know for a fact I wasn't affected even in the slightest, so I am curious how it harms the game.

[taiiat]

Dragon Keys are more and more abundantly showing their age and that they need to be rethought entirely, born anew in a form that probably doesn't affect our normal Stats. well, -Damage is probably okay. 

[Leqesai]

5 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

how? I know for a fact I wasn't affected even in the slightest, so I am curious how it harms the game.

Because it is exploitive... Just because it doesn't affect you specifically doesn't mean it isn't a problem. 

Dragon keys are not meant to make you near unkillable. They are meant to be detrimental. The fact that someone can, with just a few mods, become almost fully invincible with the use of a dragon key is obviously not intended and should be fixed/corrected.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

Dragon Keys are more and more abundantly showing their age and that they need to be rethought entirely, born anew in a form that probably doesn't affect our normal Stats. well, -Damage is probably okay. 

[SenorClipClop]

7 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

I wasn't affected [...] doesn't harm you, does it?

I get where you're coming from with this, but, Oberoni Fallacy: players being able to customize their experience around a game feature (in this case by ignoring it) doesn't exempt that feature from criticism. "It's not broken if you can fix it yourself" predicates its solution on the thing being broken in the first place.

As to how this synergy is an issue for the game, look, you're a smart Tenno, I'm sure you don't need it spelled out for you.

[Joezone619]

IMO all updates between railjack first release, and deimos were made in a panic to satisfy a player base that already left.

They really should have delivered the railjack they showed at tennocon 2018.

[Andele3025]

39 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Corpus Cameras taking 2 hits to break no matter the weapon...

Thats entirely on DE not making the entire camera be a weakspot/headshot to punch through the shieldgate.

39 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Replacing Self Damage with Self Stagger was also a big mistake, it opened up the path for brain dead playstyles where people run pointing explosive weapons like the Bramma at their feet and spamming the fire button.

Nah, it made a even more braindead option (run fake hp soak and/or invul) into a 8-16 cost mod tax for using aoe (much like how turning non-aoe to pseudo aoe tends to be a 12+ mod cost tax).

28 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Let us be clear here: Shields are still mostly worthless. Health, Armor, Adaptation and various forms of health healing still dominates in 99% of the game content.  Shield gate did nothing to make shield viable. It did nothing to encourage people to build shield. In fact, it incentivize against building shield. 

No. Especially not for adaptation as its a 67% DR on hp while its 90% dr on shields when maxed out as its modified by innate resistance values. Just BR+Adapt on any frame that doesnt have a high channel tax/doesnt need 60% bonus efficiency shields flat out give more across mission EHP along with a safety net vs oneshots compared to relying on armor+hp+adapt+90% chance to heal on potato kid jumps on any frame with 100+ shields (or being a frame that doesnt care about either at all with invul/temp hp soaks); so at most its dominating around 22% of the game based on player loadout choice (with regular shield being a minimum of 39%, tho just below half can ofc use shield reset+rolling spam instead).

[SenorClipClop]

Just now, Joezone619 said:

They really should have delivered the railjack they showed at tennocon 2018.

Counterpoint: at Tennocon 2018 they should've showed us a Railjack they were ready to deliver.

[Leqesai]

3 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Counterpoint: at Tennocon 2018 they should've showed us a Railjack they were ready to deliver.

I would be more happy with this. It is disingenuous to show a product that misrepresents what you will actually deliver.

Bait and switch?

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

-snip-

That, and studio crunch is bad. Maybe DE could have released the kind of Railjack experience they promised at TC2018, but even if possible it would've involved a ton of mandatory crunch: obligatory overtime, burnout, and the deterioration of a lot of staff members' mental and physical health. I would much rather a humbler release or a longer wait for a game than the burnout of a creative team and/or a half-baked release.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Replacing Self Damage with Self Stagger was also a big mistake, it opened up the path for brain dead playstyles where people run pointing explosive weapons like the Bramma at their feet and spamming the fire button.

So the galaxy brain move is to spam non-explosive AoE from your Nukor, Catchmoon, melee weapon, or 4 ability?

[Alpheus]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Replacing Self Damage with Self Stagger was also a big mistake, it opened up the path for brain dead playstyles where people run pointing explosive weapons like the Bramma at their feet and spamming the fire button.

I don't miss hitting black-energy Frost domes with my Mirage Lenz at point blank range, thank you very much.

[BiancaRoughfin]

 

2 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

So the galaxy brain move is to spam non-explosive AoE from your Nukor, Catchmoon, melee weapon, or 4 ability?

Dont use Nukor, Catchmoon requires aiming and has limited range, its gotten shadow nerfed quite a few times, Melee weapon requires getting close and i dont use Meta ones, i rarely use or need to use my Zephyr`s 4th ability. ^^

[Xylena_Lazarow]

2 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Dont use Nukor, Catchmoon requires aiming and has limited range, its gotten shadow nerfed quite a few times, Melee weapon requires getting close and i dont use Meta ones, i rarely use or need to use my Zephyr`s 4th ability. ^^

Well if you think the Bramma is brainless, I recommend trying the Kuva Nukor and/or a stronger melee build, you're in for a treat!