Increase Sancti Tigris and Tigris Prime's Crit Stats

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Seeing as how asking for shotgun's status to be increased has gone mostly by the wayside, can (Sancti) Tigris Prime get a crit stats increase? A lot of primaries' power comes from Hunter Munitions, but Tigris can't even use it particularly well. Overall Tigris kinda falls a bit short on the double-barrel shotgun trope.

Tigris Prime:
Buffs:
From 10% CC --> 21% CC
From 2.0x CD --> 2.1x CD

Nerfs:
Per pellet damage from 195 --> 150 (1560 total damage --> 1200 total damage)

Compared to its current version, this results in an average per shot raw damage gain of ~13% with Blunderbuss + P Ravage, ~16% with Laser Sight + P Ravage, and ~24% if you choose to use both + P Ravage.
Hunter Munitions is now more consistent.

Sancti Tigris:
Buffs:
From 1.5x CD --> 2.0x CD

Nerfs:
Per pellet damage from 210 --> 200 (1260 total damage --> 1200 total damage)

Compared to its current version, this results in an average per shot raw damage gain of ~13% with Blunderbuss + P Ravage, ~14.5% with Laser Sight + P Ravage, and ~18.5% if you choose to use both + P Ravage.
Sancti Tigris now functions as a more proper sidegrade to Tigris prime, trading reduced crit chance, crit damage, and slightly less expected procs per shot for increased reload speed and a syndicate effect.

[Traumtulpe]

31 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Increase Sancti Tigris and Tigris Prime's Crit Stats

Or just undo the 66% status chance nerf. Turns out, if you nerf a weapon by 66% it becomes bad. Who would have thunk.

[BiancaRoughfin]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Seeing as how asking for shotgun's status to be increased has gone mostly by the wayside, can (Sancti) Tigris Prime get a crit stats increase?

The fact it deals 80% of its damage as Slash with 11,25% Status chance per pellet and shoots at least 8 pellets per shot isnt enough for you?

23 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

A lot of primaries' power comes from Hunter Munitions

I personally never saw the power people see in this mod, not just because im not fond of Slash damage but i have tried it in a variaty of weapons with both low and high fire rates and high Crit chances, still didnt see as much power as people give to this mod.

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

but Tigris can't even use it particularly well.

Because its not ment to, the weapon already procs enough slash on its own.

[Traumtulpe]

46 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

The fact it deals 80% of its damage as Slash with 11,25% Status chance per pellet and shoots at least 8 pellets per shot isnt enough for you?

I personally never saw the power people see in this mod, not just because im not fond of Slash damage but i have tried it in a variaty of weapons with both low and high fire rates and high Crit chances, still didnt see as much power as people give to this mod.

Because its not ment to, the weapon already procs enough slash on its own.

There are 2 things you obviously don't know, let me teach you:

1. At high levels, you deal no damage unless you bypass armor. Even with 10 corrosive procs. That is why Hunter Munitions is good, it gives weapons a way to bypass armor.
2. The amount of pellets is irrelevant when it comes to dealing damage with slash procs. Only the status chance matters, which is very low at 11.25.
3. Bonus: Crit is an important extra multiplier to damage, and the crit stats of the Tigris Prime are also very low at 10% and 2x.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I think the solution here would be to buff Blunderbuss to be on par with Point Strike (or add Primed Blunderbuss), so we can actually make crit builds on shotguns. Tigris Prime/Sancti isn't bad, but it feels so bland that shotguns are all geared towards status builds, and that's just because building crit doesn't give you enough per mod (unless you have rivens).

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

The fact it deals 80% of its damage as Slash with 11,25% Status chance per pellet and shoots at least 8 pellets per shot isnt enough for you?

Not really.
Let's lay out 2 scenarios for Tigris Prime:

1. Chilling Reload / Toxic Barrage / Shotgun Savvy / Laser Sight / Primed Ravage
   1. This gives you a ~10.16% slash proc chance per pellet, for an expected slash proc dam per pellet of ~11.81*
   2. So you have an expected chance of 81.25% to get a single slash proc. Not very good
2. Chilling Reload / Toxic Barrage / Hunter Munitions / Laser Sight / Primed Ravage
   1. This gives you a 6.6% chance to proc slash from HM, and a 6.5% chance to proc it naturally, which means an expected slash proc dam of ~26.48* per pellet.

So natural slash isn't nearly as good as HM with its current base stats.
*Both scenarios ignore viral procs amping the difference (I don't want to bother with that calc)

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I personally never saw the power people see in this mod, not just because im not fond of Slash damage but i have tried it in a variaty of weapons with both low and high fire rates and high Crit chances, still didnt see as much power as people give to this mod.

See above. Armor is what rules most modding decisions, and slash has the upper hand.

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Because its not ment to, the weapon already procs enough slash on its own.

Except it doesn't have enough on its own.

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

There are 2 things you obviously don't know, let me teach you:

1. At high levels, you deal no damage unless you bypass armor. Even with 10 corrosive procs. That is why Hunter Munitions is good, it gives weapons a way to bypass armor.
2. The amount of pellets is irrelevant when it comes to dealing damage with slash procs. Only the status chance matters, which is very low at 11.25.
3. Bonus: Crit is an important extra multiplier to damage, and the crit stats of the Tigris Prime are also very low at 10% and 2x.

1 - Iv been in the game far longer than you, i know very well how weapons and elements work with one another, i just feel people expect too much from some weapons and keep trying to make dumb metas.
2 - Corrosive stacks up to 80% Armor reduction which is more than enough for the very big majority of content in the game, Steel Path included and you can stack heat on that to further decrease enemy armor by another 50% or use skills to stack on that reduction or increase the overall damage you do.
3 - Slash damage its self doesnt bypass armor, only the Proc do. Overrated in my opinion and i really dislike how people worship it. I perform better in missions using Puncture based weapons and DE has already significantly reduced how enemy armor scales as level increases.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Except it doesn't have enough on its own.

Even if you buffed the Tigris Prime's Crit chance/multiplier a bit, it still wouldnt make Hunters munition viable, its a 30% chance to proc slash when you Crit and the slash damage is still just 30% of the overall damage done by the pellet.

Also, people fail to consider bonus their frames abilities can add to weapons. I tinkered with my Tigris Prime and some frames, i managed to hit-kill both a lvl 180 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Eximus and lvl 180 Corrupted Bombard Eximus with my Saryn with Venom Dose and with Garuda's 4th ability. There are other Combos from other frames too you can consider.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

8 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Also, people fail to consider bonus their frames abilities can add to weapons. I tinkered with my Tigris Prime and some frames, i managed to hit-kill both a lvl 180 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Eximus and lvl 180 Corrupted Bombard Eximus with my Saryn with Venom Dose and with Garuda's 4th ability. There are other Combos from other frames too you can consider.

Yes I have my "make weapons feel good" frames too. Saryn has a nice passive debuff and can frontload a lot of damage with Venom Dose and Toxic Lash. Garuda does HM but better.
What I'm looking for is a stat buff to help the weapon perform better when I don't use those frames.
 

11 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Even if you buffed the Tigris Prime's Crit chance/multiplier a bit, it still wouldnt make Hunters munition viable, its a 30% chance to proc slash when you Crit and the slash damage is still just 30% of the overall damage done by the pellet.

If you didn't see it, my calculations showed that HM is still better than relying natural slash procs, even with Tigris's relatively poor crit stats. Raw damage can take you a way, but having access to another multiplier is nice too.

[taiiat]

i'd be welcome enough to increasing the Crit Chance of Tigris series, but not for using Hunter memes with, it's already a Slash Status Weapon. but just to have Crits also be an option.
i'd give Sancti 25% or so, and giving Prime 17.5%. while leaving Crit Damage alone.

 

that would encroach Tigris onto Vaykor Hek, yes. but Vaykor Hek has been deserving of a higher Crit Chance for a long time, tbh. was supposed to be a 'sniper Shotgun' of sorts, so in addition to the slightly extended Falloff, it should really have the consistent Crit chance to go with it. something like 40-45% is more appropriate for Vaykor Hek.

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

At high levels, you deal no damage unless you bypass armor. Even with 10 corrosive procs. That is why Hunter Munitions is good, it gives weapons a way to bypass armor.

eh, that's not really true. unless you're talking about Endurance Missions.
but anything short of that, whether snooze Path or Sortie, you can Kill stuff with Guns as they are right this second for that matter, fine. 

if anything it's more that Weapons with a low Rate of Fire or relatively low uptime, can struggle in the current state of the game as there's definitely numerous Weapons of that type that don't quite seem to have increased Stats to coincide with their low Fire Rate.
though, there's also high Rate of Fire Weapons that are also weaker than they probably should be, where the game is inversely over estimating the raw effect of their Rate of Fire.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

They’re supposed to be Status weapons. If anything should be buffed it’s their status chances.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

They’re supposed to be Status weapons. If anything should be buffed it’s their status chances.

Shotguns don't have to be status weapons, just as rifles don't need to be crit weapons. We already have high status on most of the shotguns, but there aren't any shotguns that are good with crits outside of using riven mods. If anything, The Tigris series should boast higher crit, as it would compliment the very high base damage and would be held back by the shotgun having no AoE and a constant need to reload.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Shotguns don't have to be status weapons, just as rifles don't need to be crit weapons. We already have high status on most of the shotguns, but there aren't any shotguns that are good with crits outside of using riven mods. If anything, The Tigris series should boast higher crit, as it would compliment the very high base damage and would be held back by the shotgun having no AoE and a constant need to reload.

Tigris Prime WAS a status weapon before DE nerfed it with the shotgun status nerf. It makes far more sense to return it to its original, intended function, than make it something it never was to begin with.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Tigris Prime WAS a status weapon before DE nerfed it with the shotgun status nerf. It makes far more sense to return it to its original, intended function, than make it something it never was to begin with.

It doesn't really make more sense considering the state shotguns are in. Exergis, a weapon very similar to Tigris in function, is a status weapon, as are most of the existing shotguns. If we buff Tigris' status abilities, we have fierce competition with Exergis. Where if we instead buff Tigris' crit capabilities (or rather allow shotguns in general to access crit), we keep both weapons in their own lanes, while also having both weapons be interesting and powerful.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

It doesn't really make more sense considering the state shotguns are in. Exergis, a weapon very similar to Tigris in function, is a status weapon, as are most of the existing shotguns. If we buff Tigris' status abilities, we have fierce competition with Exergis. Where if we instead buff Tigris' crit capabilities (or rather allow shotguns in general to access crit), we keep both weapons in their own lanes, while also having both weapons be interesting and powerful.

Literally just buffing all the shotguns status’s to be back to the same number they were at before would literally make shotguns as good as they were before.

The issue is they increased the base status chance of them, but divided that new large number by the shotguns pellet count and its very clear that they either massively miscalculated on several, wanted all shotguns to proc the same amount of at the same rate regardless of their different firing modes, or just didn’t care that they were ruining shotgun status.

Like how was the stack status supposed to help shotguns? It’s not exclusive to shotguns, so it’s not an overall buff to shotguns because they’re proccing status at a far lower rate than all the auto rifles that spit bullets out. My Acceltra sits at a 9% status chance and it procs status more reliably than shotguns.

I went off on a tangent. Regardless, simply changing Tigris prime to a crit weapon is a far lazier solution than DE just fixing shotgun status.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Literally just buffing all the shotguns status’s to be back to the same number they were at before would literally make shotguns as good as they were before.

The issue is they increased the base status chance of them, but divided that new large number by the shotguns pellet count and its very clear that they either massively miscalculated on several, wanted all shotguns to proc the same amount of at the same rate regardless of their different firing modes, or just didn’t care that they were ruining shotgun status.

Like how was the stack status supposed to help shotguns? It’s not exclusive to shotguns, so it’s not an overall buff to shotguns because they’re proccing status at a far lower rate than all the auto rifles that spit bullets out. My Acceltra sits at a 9% status chance and it procs status more reliably than shotguns.

I went off on a tangent. Regardless, simply changing Tigris prime to a crit weapon is a far lazier solution than DE just fixing shotgun status.

We don't need to make shotguns good, we just need to make them more interesting to mod. The shotgun status change was made to remove the huge gap between 99% and 100% status (which had no reason to be the case), along with making shotguns compatible with the new system of status stacks. Imagine if old Tigris Prime still had 100% status per pellet, along with stacking Viral/Heat/Slash. It would be absurd, and would widen the gap even further between Tigris Prime and other shotguns. As it stands, shotguns do have good status application alongside their high damage, but that's all you can really do with them.

Saying something is a lazy solution doesn't make it inherently worse. A huge part of technological advancement is reducing the amount of work people have to do, thus they are lazy solutions, but they are still great and make our life better. Also, lazy solutions are more likely to be implemented, as it would take less dev time than. It's much more likely that DE would make a numerical buff to one weapon or mod than it is that DE will change the way a system works for an entire set of weapons.

28 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

that they were ruining shotgun status.

This is a big problem you personally have when talking about game balance.  You often say something is "ruined" when it is nerfed, and I'm not sure if it's because you don't realize how good a thing actually is (and so any nerf would make it unusable), or if you aren't taking into account how most people pick the most powerful thing, which makes it so they never consider the other things the devs spent time making.

[George_PPS]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Seeing as how asking for shotgun's status to be increased has gone mostly by the wayside, can (Sancti) Tigris Prime get a crit stats increase? A lot of primaries' power comes from Hunter Munitions, but Tigris can't even use it particularly well. Overall Tigris kinda falls a bit short on the double-barrel shotgun trope.

Tigris Prime:
Buffs:
From 10% CC --> 21% CC
From 2.0x CD --> 2.1x CD

Nerfs:
Per pellet damage from 195 --> 150 (1560 total damage --> 1200 total damage)

Compared to its current version, this results in an average per shot raw damage gain of ~13% with Blunderbuss + P Ravage, ~16% with Laser Sight + P Ravage, and ~24% if you choose to use both + P Ravage.
Hunter Munitions is now more consistent.

Sancti Tigris:
Buffs:
From 1.5x CD --> 2.0x CD

Nerfs:
Per pellet damage from 210 --> 200 (1260 total damage --> 1200 total damage)

Compared to its current version, this results in an average per shot raw damage gain of ~13% with Blunderbuss + P Ravage, ~14.5% with Laser Sight + P Ravage, and ~18.5% if you choose to use both + P Ravage.
Sancti Tigris now functions as a more proper sidegrade to Tigris prime, trading reduced crit chance, crit damage, and slightly less expected procs per shot for increased reload speed and a syndicate effect.

Don't bother and don't even mention the 4 letter word n**f. If you say that, all we get are n**fs and no buffs!

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

We don't need to make shotguns good, we just need to make them more interesting to mod. The shotgun status change was made to remove the huge gap between 99% and 100% status (which had no reason to be the case), along with making shotguns compatible with the new system of status stacks. Imagine if old Tigris Prime still had 100% status per pellet, along with stacking Viral/Heat/Slash. It would be absurd, and would widen the gap even further between Tigris Prime and other shotguns. As it stands, shotguns do have good status application alongside their high damage, but that's all you can really do with them.

Saying something is a lazy solution doesn't make it inherently worse. A huge part of technological advancement is reducing the amount of work people have to do, thus they are lazy solutions, but they are still great and make our life better. Also, lazy solutions are more likely to be implemented, as it would take less dev time than. It's much more likely that DE would make a numerical buff to one weapon or mod than it is that DE will change the way a system works for an entire set of weapons.

This is a big problem you personally have when talking about game balance.  You often say something is "ruined" when it is nerfed, and I'm not sure if it's because you don't realize how good a thing actually is (and so any nerf would make it unusable), or if you aren't taking into account how most people pick the most powerful thing, which makes it so they never consider the other things the devs spent time making.

If Tigris prime had access to even 80% status it would be better than where it is now. Also it is an MASTERY RANK 13 Weapon! It should be powerful. It’s moronic to put a weapon that far behind MR and just be like “It’s a mediocre raw damage gun 7 years after raw damage became bad”.

It was ruined. Literally the only status shotgun worth using right now is Kuva Kohm because it’s the only one that can reliably proc status. By trying to fix the bugs with shotgun status they literally just put all shotgun status stuck around the 30% they would traditionally be bugged at if they were below 100% status. That’s not fixing the bug. That’s making the bug the intended feature. At it’s done nothing but make Shotguns the worst of the 4 weapon types.

[Andele3025]

Undo status nerf by pellet count and give shotties their proper promised status chance and Tigris series gets to soar again (since 90% sc over 8 pellets would be 25% per pellet).

Or if DE is too lazy for math, take old per shot, reduce that by 6% when determining per pellet SC and you get close enough to a average curve for all shotties.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Undo status nerf by pellet count and give shotties their proper promised status chance and Tigris series gets to soar again (since 90% sc over 8 pellets would be 25% per pellet).

Or if DE is too lazy for math, take old per shot, reduce that by 6% when determining per pellet SC and you get close enough to a average curve for all shotties.

I never understood why shotgun status has to work differently from a rifle with multi-shot. Isn't a shotgun just a rifle with innate multi-shot and really bad accuracy?

 

 

 

[Bakaguya-sama]

On 2021-06-25 at 6:30 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

It was ruined. Literally the only status shotgun worth using right now is Kuva Kohm because it’s the only one that can reliably proc status. By trying to fix the bugs with shotgun status they literally just put all shotgun status stuck around the 30% they would traditionally be bugged at if they were below 100% status.

Bubonico and Cedo: "Are we a joke to you?"  

Yeah I know it's easy to forget that they are technically still status shotguns, as everyone use them mostly for their explosive 2ndary fire modes.  

But that's just the thing: Sancti and Prime Tigris are relics of the past. Even if you return the old 100% status / pellet deal, they will still be bad compared to the modern options.  

I don't know if you guys remember, but while you can still do 100% status per pellet, Kuva Brakk was king. Why? Because as a 2ndary weapon, Kuva Brakk actually get good crit stats, amazing crit mods, on top of the status.And of course, I don't need to tell people how good the Redeemer Prime is.  It's hilarious that the #1 (Redeemer Prime) and # 2 (Kuva Brakk) pellet shotguns aren't even in the shotguns category. It just show how bad the base stats and mod selections are for the shotguns. Those can actually crit, and shotguns cannot.  

We need better crit stats for the majority of shotguns. It's that simple. OP was being too conservative. I want to see 60% base crit chance on the Tigris Prime, and 70% base crit chance on the Sancti Tigris. And please give us Prime Blunderbuss too.  I want to see a bunch of yellow and orange crits on these weapons. They're supposed to be boomsticks. Right now they are just pathetic.  

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

31 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Bubonico and Cedo: "Are we a joke to you?"  

Yeah I know it's easy to forget that they are technically still status shotguns, as everyone use them mostly for their explosive 2ndary fire modes.  

But that's just the thing: Sancti and Prime Tigris are relics of the past. Even if you return the old 100% status / pellet deal, they will still be bad compared to the modern options.  

I don't know if you guys remember, but while you can still do 100% status per pellet, Kuva Brakk was king. Why? Because as a 2ndary weapon, Kuva Brakk actually get good crit stats, amazing crit mods, on top of the status.And of course, I don't need to tell people how good the Redeemer Prime is.  It's hilarious that the #1 (Redeemer Prime) and # 2 (Kuva Brakk) pellet shotguns aren't even in the shotguns category. It just show how bad the base stats and mod selections are for the shotguns. Those can actually crit, and shotguns cannot.  

We need better crit stats for the majority of shotguns. It's that simple. OP was being too conservative. I want to see 60% base crit chance on the Tigris Prime, and 70% base crit chance on the Sancti Tigris. And please give us Prime Blunderbuss too.  I want to see a bunch of yellow and orange crits on these weapons. They're supposed to be boomsticks. Right now they are just pathetic.  

Bubonico and Cedos status comes from Fire modes that are not the shotgun pellets. And the fact that shotguns have to rely on non-shotgun like Alt fires just to be able to proc status is absurd.

Do even know what Tigris prime was before it was nerfed? It was a line of high slash damage that could literally delete anything you point at it. Now it may not be the Acceltra or the Bramma. But that’s no excuse for leaving to rot instead of making it good again.
 

Why can’t we get primed blunderbuss and they just make Shotguns status good again? Because all making every shotgun crit based is doing is ignoring the issue of their status being completely screwed over.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

I never understood why shotgun status has to work differently from a rifle with multi-shot. Isn't a shotgun just a rifle with innate multi-shot and really bad accuracy?

 

 

 

We don’t know why DE changed the status the way they did either.

originally what the intended design seemed to be whatever the status chance was was what each pellet had. And it’s total status chance wasn’t divided by pellet count. But there was a bug where any status below 100% was stuck at 30% per pellet. DEs “fix” to that was dividing shotgun status by pellet count, boost the status that’s being divided, and render all shotguns That aren’t Cernos P and Exergis to be stuck around that 30%.

And the funniest part about that. Is that they said the status stacking would counter that nerf to shotguns. Like literally every other weapon wasn’t getting status stacking. Why would I use any shotgun for status when I can mod something like my Supra Vandal for status and proc status far more quickly than any shotgun?

[Andele3025]

6 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

I never understood why shotgun status has to work differently from a rifle with multi-shot. Isn't a shotgun just a rifle with innate multi-shot and really bad accuracy?

Because that way status output was down curved/a shotty with equivalent status chance to a rifle wouldnt have outperformed the rifle when unmodded.
Problem is how DE implemented modding applying then to total per shot instead of pellet and now nerfing it by """converting""" it to per pellet without actually converting but instead nerfing the per shot by pellet count and multiplying that number by 3 (which gave the Convectrix a status buff since divided by 2 multiplied by 3 is +50%, Exergis was unchanged/directly 1:1 swapped and everything else nerfed.

5 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

 

Yeah I know it's easy to forget that they are technically still status shotguns, as everyone use them mostly for their explosive 2ndary fire modes.  

But that's just the thing: Sancti and Prime Tigris are relics of the past. Even if you return the old 100% status / pellet deal, they will still be bad compared to the modern options. 

It wouldnt be bad, it would be a high burst damage overall average status weapon.
At 25% status per pellet base (aka pellet chance of a 90% per shot shottie) you would fully modded have a output of average 34-35 procs per duplex of the Tigris Prime with 16 of them being slash procs, aka appropriate and in line with status weapons; instead of being worse than a HM Corinth that the Tigris series is atm.

P.S. Both of the 2 shotties you mentioned have the status weighting on their no innate multishot alt fires, not primary which are crit based in both cases (with the Bubonico having the build around niche option for avenger/harrow/cat crit memes, but thats a buildaround and meme build rather than independent sustainable setup), so while prime blunderbuss would be great, 25% crit is perfectly serviceable for the crit shotties as multishot curves crit out/RNG of it doesnt give them damage plateau and aint the ones having a bad time ATM unlike once status shotties now nerfed to perform about as bad or worse at status than crit ones.