It's time to nerf Wukong

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

4 minutes ago, shocker53 said:

Wait what did Umbra do?

umbra can be used literally just like Wukong's twin, but is better due to following even your necramech.

he can also use his own abilities. like, you can helminth his 4th and he will use most helminthed abilities.

(by helminth i mean replace with a ability by helminth)

[X7PLVTINUM]

36 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

umbra can be used literally just like Wukong's twin, but is better due to following even your necramech.

he can also use his own abilities. like, you can helminth his 4th and he will use most helminthed abilities.

(by helminth i mean replace with a ability by helminth)

You know what? I'm fine with that as long as Umbra himself doesn't get nerfed, I don't think any other Umbra's I've com across really use the sentience anyway outside of those specific scenarios

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

7 minutes ago, shocker53 said:

You know what? I'm fine with that as long as Umbra himself doesn't get nerfed, I don't think any other Umbra's I've com across really use the sentience anyway outside of those specific scenarios

i hope umbra doesnt get nerfed. but...
"

MELEE / PRIMARY BALANCE CHANGES

Reduced the Vermisplicers tendril chains from 5 to 3.

After the original publication of our Dev Workshop, we observed and noted that the Vermisplicer’s behaviour is very similar to the Kuva Nukor. To this end, we wanted to ensure we were consistent in handling the beam chain weapons in this update"
 

i dont like nerfs tbh especially in PVE games. so i hope wukong and AoE +future rebalances arent annihilated. imo wukong and AoE are kinda hard to balance without making them Mastery fodder. but if they do itt right, it shouldnt hurt much.

 

also, i do dislike nerfing stuff based on usage (its what they keep doing nerfs based on and they even nerf related things that are much less popular due to being similar to the main popular item)

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

On 2022-08-06 at 6:54 AM, Jarriaga said:

If all goes well, AoE is next considering it is so overused it is causing for Furax and Furax Wraith rivens disposition nerfs.

Oh yeah mistake we’re definitely made. Like void dash at home called discount cell phone void sling. Yikes.

[kinoko_takenoko]

It is not that Wuclone is strong. Many other offensive abilities simply do not work against the enemy.
Even those offensive abilities that do work against enemies are not suitable for use in combat against moving and scattered enemies.
How many offensive abilities are worth spending energy that is more difficult to recover than Ammo and stopping to attack with a weapon?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

Oh yeah mistake we’re definitely made. Like void dash at home called discount cell phone void sling. Yikes.

there is something about "OP". did he write that on april 1st?

the headline in the first post alone is a brazen lie. because "issue" never existed!
and here it has already been very well documented why wukong is nothing special.

the players who have invested umbra formas, normal formas, orokin and plat will have something useful being taken away from them brazenly. SO that new garbage is released and the players buy/farm it and waste resources again.

we've seen that with bramma, kuva nukor, kitguns, normal khora, and MANY OTHER items.
absolutely embarrassing tactic!

[Rantear]

20 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Hellbent on pretending wukong isnt a frame that has an insane ratio of effort required compared to performance achieved (aka a lazy frame).

Again with the AFK myth...

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by just looking at the abilities

So just by assuming that you know everything, but not from experience/testing?

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Obviously wuclone is the ability that achieves that. Obviously every weapon that's good for us to use is also good on wukong to use but between potentially 4 people using the kuva zarr and 5 people there is not that much difference anymore.

It's not obvious, it just your assumption, his AI is way too dumb to achieve anything meaningfull with "every weapon" aside from 2 that are problematic on their own with any frame, in co-op scenarios he can not compete with other players, in solo - with the player himself. You advocate for his nerf over very niche scenario where a player with just a Zarr/Bramma does nothing but somehow manages to keep his AI from going into idle mode, it just does not happen that often, and people who would do that would just continue to do that with Umbra/Crewmate, granted both are easily available to almost 100% of the players (might need a nerf, look at that ratio), and even more so - gameplay like that would be almost identical to Saryn killing everything with spores, and actually require more effort than Octavia or Legerdemain Mirage, yet I don't see calls for their nerfs. (overblown issues are, indeed, overblown)
Sure, press one button and he does something on his own, there's quite a few frames that have similar abilities, you just usually gotta recast them every once in a while,

Спойлер

which surely would be a welcome change, tho, imho, i would love being able to give him commands, or have him act like Mirage clones to actually make him more usefull and more controlled to overcome his stupidity, but any of that would be a buff... Actually you DO have to recast him sometimes, he's not invincible, you know? I rarely actually try to focus on the twin, but he does seem to die quite easily in any somewhat hard content without me trying to keep him alive

But yet, those abilities are much more effective in EVERY scenario and require even less investment than farming a lich weapon would (for example Protea without potato and rare mods can straight-up carry steel path with just her abilities, and they are mainly automatic as well, spamming 1 button does not require much effort), yet I don't see anyone complaining about them, she does have issues with survivability tho, the only actual advantage that Wukong always has, and the only potential change that a dozen of warframes not just needs to surpass his usage, but actually needed for years even without the goal of surpassing someone.
AI, a turret, AoD DoT, AoE nuke - they're not much different in the end result or effort required, only difference is how people's perception of it is twisted.

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That by itself doesnt explain the wide gap between wukong and every other frame.

You don't have any faintest idea how statistics work? Gap in usage is not wide at all, acquisition - yes, but it has a logical explanation beyond him being "OP", if his prime release was swapped with Inaros', Inaros would've taken his place on the chart. (although I do take into account possibility that there might be some youtuber or streamer that forced the idea of Wukong being OP on their audience, artificially boosting how many people started going for him.)

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Personally I dont care what other people play, this is just the current hot topic so I'm chiming in with my takes

So you're just coming here for the drama? 🤢🤮 
As for your takes... Look at your first message that I've replied to....
It baffles me how relaxed the rules are here (especially compared to region chat, lol), on any other forum that I've ever been to you would've been instantly banned, because it's pretty much a troll bait, and you're not even the only person doing it here. Looking at the amount of your messages, and considering the fact that you're not the first "anomaly" like that that I've had displeasure conversing with, it's no wonder that there have always been balance issues in the game, and that devs nowadays only seem to read reddit.

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his generally good insight

Like with Catchmoon, just ignore the Nataruk and Tenet Plasmor. He's definitely giving his good insight and not just being the main damage controller after the changes have already been decided on, due to a vocal part of the community, apparently, liking him the most.

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it's your most used frame, pretty significantly aswell

Yep, you do have no idea.

 

9 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

we've seen that with bramma, kuva nukor, kitguns, normal khora, and MANY OTHER items.

Wait, it didn't start recently, did it?
Oh nyooo.

Спойлер

Jk, that's too much doomposting.
Bramma and Nukor I'd say were justified (both are still pretty decent, and didn't Bramma also cause ton of lag when it came out?).
Khora.... she was really strong, but nerfing her was an overreaction to the problems with the steel path itself, that, I think, since then have been fixed, she also relies on rivens too much for it to really be a justified nerf, and they also did straight up break her instead of just nerfing, so that's, like, triple concerning.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Rantear:

Wait, it didn't start recently, did it?
Oh nyooo.

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Jk, that's too much doomposting.
Bramma and Nukor I'd say were justified (both are still pretty decent, and didn't Bramma also cause ton of lag when it came out?).
Khora.... she was really strong, but nerfing her was an overreaction to the problems with the steel path itself, that, I think, since then have been fixed, she also relies on rivens too much for it to really be a justified nerf, and they also did straight up break her instead of just nerfing, so that's, like, triple concerning.

I never had lag and I played very actively at the time. so no idea what this nonsense is supposed to be. maybe these players had very outdated pc components.

"decent" maybe. if you have high end arcanes, maxed prime mods, top builds. but then many weapons are "decent" and well playable.
example would be ivara with 300% crit dmg. with that she makes 1 - 1.8 mil crits on lua sp
but despite the carrier and double ammo, I often run out of ammunition. I have to laugh here!
i can imagine how a low mr player with 5 ammo feels...

and kuva nukor was very cool weapon. I really enjoyed playing with it as mesa. only now it's usable, but Laetum performs extremely better and kuva secondaries don't make any sense at all. because Laetum kills greener on sp with 1-2 headshots. that's absurd! and the weapon is much easier to get!

in my opinion, khora's damage was justified. because it was extremely difficult to get and the devs should have simply increased the price in the market several times. and now it's still top warframe, only instead of 1st skill I prefer to install amor ignore with ability strength aura+arcane.

[sunderthefirmament]

50 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Bramma and Nukor I'd say were justified (both are still pretty decent, and didn't Bramma also cause ton of lag when it came out?).

I had a rando shutdown my PC when they hit me with a launch state bramma arrow.  It was obviously not tested enough.

 

51 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Khora.... she was really strong, but nerfing her was an overreaction to the problems with the steel path itself, that, I think, since then have been fixed, she also relies on rivens too much for it to really be a justified nerf, and they also did straight up break her instead of just nerfing, so that's, like, triple concerning.

The wonky LoS change on Whipclaw just means that it's more reliable to use a Kbramma/Kzarr/Kogris in basically all content that's "easier" than steel path endurance.  Why fire a screechy Khora whipclaw into a crowd and have a chance you won't hit the enemies than just aim in their general direction with an AOE primary and wipe them out effortlessly?  Yeah, whipclaw scales really well, but for most content its damage advantage won't even be noticeable.  Indeed, its LoS will lead to it killing more slowly than the current meta AOE primaries.

 

And now that there really isn't much incentive to sit in a steel path interception for hours at a time, I'm finding it hard to justify using Khora over something tankier and with more utility.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

I'm thinking I'll run:

Mirage with Kuva Bramma

Saryn with Toxic Lash

or Wisp

 

I think they're all good alternatives to Wukong for low-effort mode

 

Think DE will nerf one of them next after we shift?

[Pizzarugi]

For starters, why are they nerfing WuClone? Is it because of Kuva Zarr? I'd think nerfing that would be more important.

Assuming they are going to nerf it, everyone will just main press-4-to-win Mesa and press-Spore-to-win Saryn even harder than they're already doing.

As for me, I'm gonna still be playing Revenant. Infinite scaling tank that can enthrall enemies which is now more useful than ever since the eximus rework, making minion distraction a CC which still works on them.

[Drachnyn]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Rantear:

Again with the AFK myth...

So just by assuming that you know everything, but not from experience/testing?

It's not obvious, it just your assumption, his AI is way too dumb to achieve anything meaningfull with "every weapon" aside from 2 that are problematic on their own with any frame, in co-op scenarios he can not compete with other players, in solo - with the player himself. You advocate for his nerf over very niche scenario where a player with just a Zarr/Bramma does nothing but somehow manages to keep his AI from going into idle mode, it just does not happen that often, and people who would do that would just continue to do that with Umbra/Crewmate, granted both are easily available to almost 100% of the players (might need a nerf, look at that ratio), and even more so - gameplay like that would be almost identical to Saryn killing everything with spores, and actually require more effort than Octavia or Legerdemain Mirage, yet I don't see calls for their nerfs. (overblown issues are, indeed, overblown)
Sure, press one button and he does something on his own, there's quite a few frames that have similar abilities, you just usually gotta recast them every once in a while,

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which surely would be a welcome change, tho, imho, i would love being able to give him commands, or have him act like Mirage clones to actually make him more usefull and more controlled to overcome his stupidity, but any of that would be a buff... Actually you DO have to recast him sometimes, he's not invincible, you know? I rarely actually try to focus on the twin, but he does seem to die quite easily in any somewhat hard content without me trying to keep him alive

But yet, those abilities are much more effective in EVERY scenario and require even less investment than farming a lich weapon would (for example Protea without potato and rare mods can straight-up carry steel path with just her abilities, and they are mainly automatic as well, spamming 1 button does not require much effort), yet I don't see anyone complaining about them, she does have issues with survivability tho, the only actual advantage that Wukong always has, and the only potential change that a dozen of warframes not just needs to surpass his usage, but actually needed for years even without the goal of surpassing someone.
AI, a turret, AoD DoT, AoE nuke - they're not much different in the end result or effort required, only difference is how people's perception of it is twisted.

You don't have any faintest idea how statistics work? Gap in usage is not wide at all, acquisition - yes, but it has a logical explanation beyond him being "OP", if his prime release was swapped with Inaros', Inaros would've taken his place on the chart. (although I do take into account possibility that there might be some youtuber or streamer that forced the idea of Wukong being OP on their audience, artificially boosting how many people started going for him.)

So you're just coming here for the drama? 🤢🤮 
As for your takes... Look at your first message that I've replied to....
It baffles me how relaxed the rules are here (especially compared to region chat, lol), on any other forum that I've ever been to you would've been instantly banned, because it's pretty much a troll bait, and you're not even the only person doing it here. Looking at the amount of your messages, and considering the fact that you're not the first "anomaly" like that that I've had displeasure conversing with, it's no wonder that there have always been balance issues in the game, and that devs nowadays only seem to read reddit.

Like with Catchmoon, just ignore the Nataruk and Tenet Plasmor. He's definitely giving his good insight and not just being the main damage controller after the changes have already been decided on, due to a vocal part of the community, apparently, liking him the most.

Yep, you do have no idea.

You inherently think I'm lying and you think that pablo is lying aswell but you call me the troll. Curious. Nothing I say will ever convince you because you've already made up your mind. I also dont advocate for nerfing wukong but go off on that I guess.

It very obviously is not the same as umbra, mirage, saryn or octavia, otherwise we would see them with stats similar to wukong. which is as we know not the case. Sure, the clone's AI is dumb but it's not that dumb that it will never hit anything without specifically AoE weapons. The difference to umbra, where we've also seen this lazy behavior, is that wukong offers far better movement for the same level of investment. Operator dash was fast but also required a lot of focus investment and was very clunky depending on the map. Wukong's cloud is insanely easy to control. So much so that the racing community banned usage of wukong.

When I say by looking at his abilities I am including testing him out myself. You got me, I have played wukong in the past. I played wukong like he is often played (according to rebecca): for sortie and sortie like content where missions are generally so unspecific that any generalist will do perfectly fine. This was before slide speed cloud was removed. This nerf was honestly all that was needed to get me to stop playing him.

There are wo things about your post I really like:

• You accuse me of baseless claims but then try to claim that inaros would be at the top if the release order was switched. A claim with absolutely no basis at all. Content creators do not have the power to gaslight people into thinking a bad frame is actually the best one in existence. If they tried it would fall apart instantly, they would get laughed at by the community and no lasting change in usage would occur. They can only reinforce existing trends. It's not just usage, it's both usage and acquisition. Wukong leads in both and according to pablo in their view by too much. The statistic is a combined one and should be viewed as such, even combined with the distribution across mastery ranks. People set wukong prime as their target frame to get and then stick with it for the rest of the game.
• You agree on one advantage wukong has: survivability. But you compare that to protea. A frame that is invincible in most situations except for user errors. This is part of what I mean that wukong gives you tons of application for little effort in comparison. This is part of what being a lazy frame means.

There is another important difference between protea and wukong. She is a very active frame. You are constantly spamming abilities. Now you can be very active with wukong aswell, I never claimed otherwise. It's just you also get results if you are very laid back. Again, I dont care what you play. I dont care if people want to play the laziest frame possible. I dont think wukong needs a nerf at all, not after his speed was gutted. I would welcome a rework that makes him a more active frame and I think despite being the culprit behind current wukong pablo is easily qualified to make such a rework based on all the other frames he was in charge of.

Call it being here for the drama if you want, it's a hot topic and even if you dont want to see it, the idea of buffing the least used frames up to wukong's level is not a new one nor is it inherently a stupid idea. Often times it's an idea that does apply, it's just in cases like wukong where we need to be careful with it. After watching parts of the interview with pablo I noticed that I essentially just repeated word for word what he said in that video in the post you initially responded to.

It is significant because how many hours of in mission time you have. That's not meant as a slight. If you want to show proof that your combined limbo usage overtakes that of wukong be my guest. But having so much usage on wukong prime and so many in mission hours definitely makes you a wukong player. Just like my stats clearly prove that I am a Saryn player.

My idea of a more active clone would be to make it baseline do a lot less damage but make it deal increased damage based on enemies you kill and then have the clone come back around at improve your damage whenever it kills enemies. This approach has apperently worked very well with saryn's miasma.

I still do not understand why you popped off like this over my post. I am not here to antagonize you. I didnt even know you existed before you responded to me. There is not even a reason for why you responded to me. Why did you feel called out when I said wukong is good at being afk and lazy? What made you so hellbent on trying to prove me wrong? You said yourself you would welcome the removal of the clone. I invite you however to try out mesa, protea, saryn, khora, mirage, octavia and/or umbra whenever you would default to wukong. See the difference for yourself. You might be surprised. Or not.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb sunderthefirmament:

I had a rando shutdown my PC when they hit me with a launch state bramma arrow.  It was obviously not tested enough.

 

The wonky LoS change on Whipclaw just means that it's more reliable to use a Kbramma/Kzarr/Kogris in basically all content that's "easier" than steel path endurance.  Why fire a screechy Khora whipclaw into a crowd and have a chance you won't hit the enemies than just aim in their general direction with an AOE primary and wipe them out effortlessly?  Yeah, whipclaw scales really well, but for most content its damage advantage won't even be noticeable.  Indeed, its LoS will lead to it killing more slowly than the current meta AOE primaries.

 

And now that there really isn't much incentive to sit in a steel path interception for hours at a time, I'm finding it hard to justify using Khora over something tankier and with more utility.

I remember people camping with afk macros. that's embarrassing enough. they even wrote it in the lfg chat.
Something like that doesn't belong in the game and has long since been fixed. In addition, hours of camping is absolutely pointless.

they also harm themselves and get bored quickly. maybe it's the people who are constantly crying here. LOL!

actually Los makes the skill a joke because i often need 2-3 times for a lvl 30 enemies because some little mischief is blocking the damage. but where is the energy supposed to come from?

p.s. you forgot Tenet Envoy. with dmg/crit/reload buff + top riven it has top performance.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

p.s. you forgot Tenet Envoy. with dmg/crit/reload buff + top riven it has top performance.

The three I mentioned are used a lot more.  I'm sure it's effective.  I just never see it used all that much, and my anecdotal evidence is backed up by the 2021 usage statistics.  

[gamingchair1121]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

For starters, why are they nerfing WuClone? Is it because of Kuva Zarr? I'd think nerfing that would be more important.

pablo posted a graph on twitter that showed just how many players use him and it was about double the second most used frame

also its not just the clone that's getting nerfed its wukong that is

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb sunderthefirmament:

The three I mentioned are used a lot more.  I'm sure it's effective.  I just never see it used all that much, and my anecdotal evidence is backed up by the 2021 usage statistics.  

there is a reason for that, because you have to have a very specific build for it. I only play it solo.

it's just a shame that so many stones are thrown in the way of such a weapon with a cool design/sound. in my opinion.

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

I'll still be playing Wisp, like I do now.

Although, as far as I can tell, most of the complaining should really be about Kuva Zarr and AoE weapons, not Wukong. There's maybe a valid point in there somewhere about his Cloud thing being overly good at stealth, on a frame whose identity is built around tankiness and having a "buddy system" rather than stealth. I've had Wukong for about four days and I haven't experienced Wukong's Cloudwalk as being like that, too uncontrollably fast for the careful positioning spy vaults need, but my experience isn't universal.

(A tangent: "Your experiences and needs are not universal" is something the crowd who hates Wukong needs to learn, sooner than later. Because under all the justifications they use - quite few of which are either a case of "not everyone gets fun out of a game the way you do" and some just plain bogus when examined - what's really driving this is the same tired old "anyone who uses anything 'easy' or doesn't play the same way I do is a Bad Lazy Fake Gamer" elitism that's been dominating gaming since before videogames got more complex than Pong. It's been around since TTRPGs.)

[cute_moth.npc]

Titania and Protea because those are already what I play! I also don't really know if it's Wukong that needs to get nerfed and not just the AoE situation that's carrying away his popularity, that's mostly what it feels like to me.

[(PSN)c1234567890alvi]

Wukong is versatile and more importantly very accessible, both gameplay and obtainable-wise. Many players, especially new ones, need to save their resources/slots, thats why they stick to frames that get them through most of the grind as effortlessly and chill as possible.

Nerfs in that regard are always very interesting from a business perspective, since it forces those players to basically get rid of their precious resources and restart farming. Also, they are the easiest solution to make players change up their arsenal.

In that regard, the Wukong/AoE nerfs that are certainly coming, are a nightmare from a customer's perspective. You basically lose all the resources you put into your setups, as well as having to invest into new ones. Additionally, the current game, enemy spawns, victory/defeat conditions, reward rotations and drop chances are based on our current arsenal effectivity. You basically are going to have to work more and harder for the very same rewards. 

 

Finally, I don't see a single target buff incoming, meaning people will instead go for the melee meta again instead, so we're basically thrown back into 2020 meta, but with less rewards...

[Yamazuki]

Nothing changes for myself. When I used him, it was mostly for Iron Staff or Railjack to donate a bodyguard to a random.

34 minutes ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

 what's really driving this is the same tired old "anyone who uses anything 'easy' or doesn't play the same way I do is a Bad Lazy Fake Gamer" elitism that's been dominating gaming since before videogames got more complex than Pong. It's been around since TTRPGs.)

Warframe isn't even a game that requires immense effort. People are also massive hypocrites and extremely inconsistent on what's 'lazy'. Melee was considered 'lazy' despite requiring actually moving around anytime someone else had ranged damage. Meanwhile, standing in one spot holding LMB with an auto-rifle takes immense effort purely because.... they say so.

[(PSN)Silver1593]

I dont really use wukong , for steel p chroma p and i am a inaros main . Inaros buff and skins when ? Only nerf but never buff

[Drachnyn]

I swapped off of wukong a long time ago when they murdered his cloud speed.

[Skoomaseller]

revenant, ash, yareli, as I've been doing

[TennouboshiUzume]

The game needs PLAY to make HAPPY ,not waste your life on a lazyframe : P

[Hello]

Wouldn't make a bit of difference. The config I use for Wukong doesn't even have Celestial Twin on it. 

Unlike most people, I don't need a clone with an AoE weapon to kill for me.