The Galvanized mods and new arcanes have nerfed Chroma as a side effect

[SteveCutler]

I just thought I'd make a post to point something out, as I haven't seen anybody else discuss this yet.

We recently got Galvanized mods and new Merciless, Dexterity, and Deadhead mods added to the game. These mods have increased the total possible amount of base damage for guns, and made it easier to get that base damage. People are aware that this has diminished the value of mods such as Serration or Hornet Strike, as well as riven mods with the base damage bonus.

What I haven't seen anybody discuss is that this also diminishes the value of Chroma's Vex Armor, as that also acts as base damage for weapons. I've done some calculations personally and they suggest that Vex Armor is now roughly half as effective as it was for damage. The exact number will depend on your weapon build and power strength, but regardless, it is a significant loss in ability power.

Chroma's already been in need of tuning for a while. Vex Armor is a pain to build, a pain to maintain, and is easily wiped out by resets or nullifiers. His first and fourth ability are both fairly useless. This new issue further adds to the problem.

By no means is Chroma terrible — there are much worse frames in the game, like Hydroid. But still I'd like to get some eyeballs on this issue.

[Flannoit]

Unfortunately Chroma has been considered as obsolete long before the primary/secondary arcades and galvanized came out. He very badly could use a rework.

He's not nearly as awful as Hydroid, but he's in such a niche of obsolete that the only remedy is to redo his kit from scratch. 

[Famecans]

damage boosting abilities are better than stackable damage boosting modifiers, this is a direct comparison and I'll explain my point of view here:

• Abilities can trigger stackables effectiveness "quickly" or "instantly".

In reverse situation:

• Stackable modifiers cannot increase a skill's effectiveness as it relies on fragile enemies and a positive situation to count "on-kill".

the main problem with "on kill" is that without kills there is no damage accumulation, there is no energy to collect, there is no stacking damage, it is not a consistent damage type and cannot be controlled by player efficiency.

[Lminith]

Le 11/09/2021 à 06:23, Famecans a dit :

damage boosting abilities are better than stackable damage boosting modifiers, this is a direct comparison and I'll explain my point of view here:

• Abilities can trigger stackables effectiveness "quickly" or "instantly".

In reverse situation:

• Stackable modifiers cannot increase a skill's effectiveness as it relies on fragile enemies and a positive situation to count "on-kill".

the main problem with "on kill" is that without kills there is no damage accumulation, there is no energy to collect, there is no stacking damage, it is not a consistent damage type and cannot be controlled by player efficiency.

That's why I didn't like the design idea behind them.
They are strong if you're strong and they are weak if you're weak (let a alone if the kills go to other party members).
The design is flawed, instead of helping players to kill some or all mobs it makes them overkill or useless. Neither is useful.
Sure, the MS one is basically a swap (since the worst scenario makes little difference to the normal one), other Galvanized like the +Dmg per Status On Kill is not, and is nothing like CO, just like the new Berserker Fury is nothing like the old Berserk.

I don't like this sort of design... but I guess I'm no longer the target audience of WF, and that's fine.

[Aldain]

Perhaps that is because Chroma was never really that good, but rather a jumble of nonsense buffs calling themselves an ability loadout?

[Reitrix]

Chroma mainly just needs some small tweaks with the only major issue being Effigy badly in need of a rework. 

I recently picked up his Prime and have zero issue with how he functions in general. 

Vex Armor is absurdly easy to max out and maintain. Just the press button every 30 seconds and you're all good. 

I dunno if  it's a bug or what, but being able to melee while Spectral Screaming makes the ability super fun. That needs to be a feature if it isn't.

Elemental Ward is fine, it just needs to be recastable. 

Effigy is really the only thing that needs a rework. And the rework I propose for it is to turn it into an Exalted Necramech in Dragon form. 

I've never seen the value in nerfing my own defenses to get a massive energy drain, stationary credit booster that does mediocre damage. 

Let the Dragon be a Dragon already!

[Lutesque]

On 2021-09-11 at 7:23 AM, Famecans said:

the main problem with "on kill" is that without kills there is no damage accumulation, there is no energy to collect, there is no stacking damage, it is not a consistent damage type and cannot be controlled by player efficiency

I'm assuming that means Chroma still works just fine in Eidolon Hunts since it would be hard to Trigger any On-Kill Effects there...

On 2021-09-11 at 6:26 AM, SteveCutler said:

What I haven't seen anybody discuss is that this also diminishes the value of Chroma's Vex Armor, as that also acts as base damage for weapons. I've done some calculations personally and they suggest that Vex Armor is now roughly half as effective as it was for damage. The exact number will depend on your weapon build and power strength, but regardless, it is a significant loss in ability power.

How is it Half as Effective... Did they Nerf Vex Armor ?

16 hours ago, Lminith said:

I don't like this sort of design... but I guess I'm no longer the target audience of WF, and that's fine

+1 !!!

8 hours ago, Reitrix said:

 

Vex Armor is absurdly easy to max out and maintain. Just the press button every 30 seconds and you're all good

I know how this is going to sound but I'm going to say it anyway: thats just too much work... 😱

 

[RealPandemonium]

How is Chroma nerfed?  You can use galvanized mods on Chroma with no penalty.

[NecroPed]

12 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

How is Chroma nerfed?  You can use galvanized mods on Chroma with no penalty.

I think the 'nerf' is from using galvanized mods because his ability uses a weapons base damage.

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, NecroPed said:

I think the 'nerf' is from using galvanized mods because his ability uses a weapons base damage.

Which galvanized mods nerf base damage?

[NecroPed]

7 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Which galvanized mods nerf base damage?

When used in stead of serration or whatever

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, NecroPed said:

When used in stead of serration or whatever

None of the galvanized mods even lower base damage.  Some of them affect multishot, and their base multishot is slightly lower than the non-galavanized version, but after proccing one stack of their special effect they become superior.   OP doesn't understand how the game works or is really bad at expressing himself.

[DrBorris]

Good. Maybe now people will stop using the excuse "But Chroma make number good" as an excuse for him being the worst designed frame in the game. Other Warframes may still not be as effective as Chroma but at least they have some character.

Chroma needs a rework. Ground up, complete re-envisioning, no holds barred.

 

6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

None of the galvanized mods even affect base damage.  Some of them affect multishot, and their base multishot is slightly lower than the non-galavanized version, but after proccing one stack of their special effect they become superior.   OP doesn't understand how the game works or is really bad at expressing himself.

The Galvanized Status mods (Aptitude, Savvy, and Shot) give a base damage boost.

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

The Galvanized Status mods (Aptitude, Savvy, and Shot) give a base damage boost.

Yeah, I saw those but they don't lower base damage vs their regular counterpart, and I don't see why they would hurt Chroma rather than help.

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Yeah, I saw those but they don't lower base damage vs their regular counterpart, and I don't see why they would hurt Chroma rather than help.

The problem the OP is referring to is the relative increase in damage Chroma gives.

Every time you add more damage the added damage has a lesser impact on the total damage. 2 is 100% more than 1. 3 is 50% more than 2. 4 is 33% more than 3 and so on. Going from 3 to 4 gave you the same additive bonus as 1 to 2 but it was less impactful to the overall total. I'm pretty sure you know about this, this is what the OP is on about.

Examples because I have nothing better to do...

1. Assuming a 333% power strength Chroma you get a 915% damage increase (I forget how big Chroma's number is sometimes).
2. Before, with Serration and Chroma, you had 165% + 915% = 1080%. So, relative to your damage before you get a nice multiplicative increase of 345%.
3. Now we have the Arcanes and Galv Aptitude/Savvy/Shot. The status ones are hard to quantify because the amount of status inflicting an enemy varies, I'll just go with 3 for this. 360% + 3*80% + 915% = 1515%. Now Vex Armor is giving a bonus 130% multiplicative damage boost.
4. 130% is less than 345%, therefore nerf (by the OP's logic).

Now you may say "more damage is more damage, Chroma still does what Chroma did". This is true, but Chroma doesn't live in a vacuum. Now comes Chroma's nemesis, Rhino, with his multiplicative damage boost. A 333% power strength builds gets his damage boost up to 167%. Before these Arcanes Chroma, despite his math being less powerful, had a big enough number to be the best way to make your number go up (outside Mirage shenanigans which are impractical for a variety of reasons). This is no longer the case, 167% > 130%.

All Chroma had was his number, it was the only reason to use him. He could tank a bit too but Rhino can also do that better. If Chroma doesn't have his big number niche then he doesn't have a niche. No purpose, throw him out.

 

Do I agree with this logic? Ehhhhhhh.... Chroma has been a steaming pile of garbage for awhile now, in my eyes this doesn't make him any worse than he was. But for some people Chroma having his niche was reason enough to make him good. Thus if that niche no longer exists Chroma is no longer good. Going from good to no good is a nerf.

I'm pretty sure you know all this math, half the reason I wrote this out was because I hadn't done the math yet myself.

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

snip

Figured that was it.  As usual people complaining that they only do 3 million DPS and not 5 million.  

[Squick]

Except a chroma user can gain mod slots for elemental damage by not using anything that adds base damage, since their own buff is that much more superior.

[Cerasium]

On 2021-09-17 at 3:42 AM, Lminith said:

That's why I didn't like the design idea behind them.
They are strong if you're strong and they are weak if you're weak (let a alone if the kills go to other party members).
The design is flawed, instead of helping players to kill some or all mobs it makes them overkill or useless. Neither is useful.
Sure, the MS one is basically a swap (since the worst scenario makes little difference to the normal one), other Galvanized like the +Dmg per Status On Kill is not, and is nothing like CO, just like the new Berserker Fury is nothing like the old Berserk.

I don't like this sort of design... but I guess I'm no longer the target audience of WF, and that's fine.

They are all swaps though, not just the MS mods. Their base stats are only 10% lower than the regular counterpart so without triggering (and stacking) the bonus they work the same as the normal version. So, as you say, in the "worst case scenario" you get basically the same effect as if you were using the non-galvanized versions. When you stack however, they become far superior obviously. The "+DMG per status on kill" is just a bonus and not the main stat of those mods (+status is; eg. Rife Aptitude 90% ststus vs Galvanized Aptitude 80% status + on kill bonus). So its not like you get nothing from those mods unless you kill, killing just triggers the bonus.

[George_PPS]

A lot of "meta" frames in game are actually just specialists in some game modes or boss fights. This is a great game design to actually balance and diversify the roles and usages of different frames. Chroma was great for most boss fights until it was nerfed to the ground with the terrible change introduced a while ago. Now he is just simply a garbage can item with the introduction of new Mods. High maintenance and low return. What's the point of using this frame? It's like another NYX Prime. Pretty but useless.  Without the old owner directing DE to nerf and kill this game for 3 straight years, I hope Chroma is the next frame to be looked at and reworked to restore its past role as a specialist in boss fights and maybe more. 

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Chroma seriously needs a rework and DE has been overlooking it for years

[Electropuncher]

I love how literally every patch is now accompanied with a "Chroma just got stealth-nerfed" post. Chroma is, has always been, and will always likely be a terrible, terrible set of passives that masquerade as a functional warframe.

I think the worst part is that Chroma's still ridiculously powerful, but the players who whine about him are the ones who are literally spending days in missions because they think that's fun. Which, I guess more power to you if you think spending an entire workday playing a mindless mission is a good way to spend your time, but in the meantime, just play the game, and if Chroma stinks try a different frame, or even try a different game if he's the only thing you're here for. You have almost fifty choices available to you.