Should AoE weapons have their own ammo type?

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

With the ability to delete entire groups of enemies in a second with AoE weapons, making most if not all  other weapons appear obsolete, should AoE weapons or weapons with mechanics of an AoE nature have their own special rare heavy ammo type and reduced overall magazine size and ammo capacity?

Right now AoE weapons are the like the ultimate ability of our Warframe but with no consequence or lack there of ammo economy. What's to prevent the meta goto choice of these weapons, if they are an all time use weapon rather than a situational heavy weapon? What's supposed to bring back light to the forgotten weapons that cannot perform anywhere near what these weapons can? 

Even if we brought back self damage or  knockdown or perhaps a mechanic that makes the player drop their weapon on a self stagger instead, there would still be the goto meta for Aoe. 

 

Not calling for damage nerf, but a balance to availability for use to create a fair playing field and interest for all other weapons. 

DE you are selling yourself short on all other weapon creations that aren't aoe until you fix this meta. It sure is fun but makes for boring and non engaging gameplay. 

[Keiyadan]

most of the weapons already have a rare ammo type sniper and are very munition inefficent with it
some weapons not even get anything by boost their dmg that have aoe effects

and the thing is i saw changes to weapons on munition efficency in the past and how that turned out the weapons are no longer played at all so you could ask to remove them right now it would basicly the same thing
 

[chofranc]

That wouldn't solve anything since "ammo mutation mods" solve that problem. The only way that i see that they could solve this is by reducing the maximum ammo of the weapon and removing the "ammo mutation" mods and similar features from that kind of weapon(im talking about especifically of explosive type weapons) and maybe increasing the damage of the weapon, like in other games where you have this weapon(IE: rocket launcher, Grenade, etc) that does a lot of damage but its have few shoots. But i don't truly know if balancing AoE weapons would make any difference since melee weapons also can kill a lot of enemies in seconds in this game. I think that it would be better to return to self-damage and making the damage porcentual instead of receiving the whole damage and maybe apply some status effect on the player.

 

Single target weapons also can kill a lot of enemies if you equip them with punchtrhough mods, maybe they would be more popular if DE released a better punchtrough mod alternative since most of them cost over 10 mod points. I remember that in its time, i used to play with the Furis a lot and the punchtrough mod made a big difference.

[Leqesai]

Reducing the max ammo of AOE weapons is one solution but I think the most realistic is to just revert the self damage thing. There are so many ways of bypassing ammo restrictions it wouldn't really be much of an issue. Look at Kuva Bramma's TINY capacity. The thing is really easy to maintain with a rank 0 ammo mutation mod.

[Tiltskillet]

Half arsed idea I've been thinking about: 

• All ammo pickups are universal
• Pickups are split between primary and secondary, based on percentage of ammo pool expended for each.  (Not sure how atmo archguns fit into this.)
  • Ammo mutation tilts these percentages (if there are not competing mutation mods) and mutates some ammo that would otherwise be wasted.
• Weapons each have an inherent ammo conversion stat--largely determined by class--that determines how much they get from each pick up.
• Ammo scavenger mods give a bonus to this stat.  (And let's consolidate the scavenger auras into one.)

So the conversion stat is where there could be some tuning done for both launchers as a class, and other AoE weapons that aren't necessarily "launchers". 

Anyway, whether this particular idea is good or not, I think ammo is only part of the solution for AoE.  Other things to look at: stagger immunity, damage application, single target weapon buffs, more enemies and objectives that reward precision weapons.  My hope is for a few smaller AoE nerfs (and some precision buffs) rather than one cataclysmic  SMASHNERF.

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

With the ability to delete entire groups of enemies in a second with AoE weapons, making most if not all  other weapons appear obsolete, should AoE weapons or weapons with mechanics of an AoE nature have their own special rare heavy ammo type and reduced overall magazine size and ammo capacity?

If you're going to do that you may aswell give them their own Loadout Category too just like Heavy Weapons...

8 hours ago, (XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

 

Right now AoE weapons are the like the ultimate ability of our Warframe but with no consequence or lack there of ammo economy. What's to prevent the meta goto choice of these weapons, if they are an all time use weapon rather than a situational heavy weapon? What's supposed to bring back light to the forgotten weapons that cannot perform anywhere near what these weapons can? 

You say that like it's a Bad Thing 🤔...

 

[Nira]

I recently suggested that Primed Sure Footed should not apply its bonuses to self-stagger from weapons. The reaction it got indicated that having AoE weapons with zero drawbacks is what most players are happy to continue with. So, I'm with you, but I doubt it's a very popular opinion.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

13 hours ago, Lutesque said:

If you're going to do that you may aswell give them their own Loadout Category too just like Heavy Weapons...

You say that like it's a Bad Thing 🤔...

 

I think it would be great if DE gave us more freedom of choice in weapon slots if they were universal slots that we could pick whatever weapons we so desire for that slot.

 

I say it's like a bad thing, because to me it has the strong potential to be. Although as I stated on the bottom AoE weapons are fun, they can create and lead to boring and non engaging gameplay. It creates a mindless sense that it doesn't matter where I am aiming because my weapon will always atleast hit something and will kill an enemy or maybe 5 or more at a time, oh and I can spam this weapon to my hearts desire. Not having to worry about ammo at all either really. It would be like us having a few frames with tremendously OP ultimates that we could just spam endlessly because our energy drops would be endless and the cost of spending the ability wouldnt really feel like a sacrifice. There's no weight to the cost. That's why I compared AoE weapons as the ultimate ability of our weapon choices. Except AoE weapons have readily available ammo vs energy for ultimate abilities.

Long term I believe it creates a narrative that if these weapons are so outstandingly powerful compared to everything else and they can be used just as often, why would anyone choose anything different? Why would anyone go back to other weapons if not just for a particular boss fight? 

 

I'm not on here to say I don't use AoE weapons or that players shouldn't use them. I use them all the time why wouldn't you if they make the game more efficient? It's almost like you'd be dumb for not choosing the most efficient route. But why should the most efficient route be always available? What's to spark the creative disparities between builds with other players? How else can DE entice players to want to try out some other new weapons they bring out if they won't perform anywhere near to the AoE meta?

Some players want to be challenge as their source of fun, and some players just want to blow up hoardes of enemies. To each their own. I understand DE won't and cannot cater to everyone. This is just my take on the subject. I'm not saying that no one should be able to have a good time, but just that this narrative could potentially really cut short a long term potential for people's interest in this game if it's truly too easy with AoE. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I'm not saying I'm 100 percent accurate or right on this but this is just my spew. That's why we get to share our opinions. 

 

[Lutesque]

49 minutes ago, (XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

I think it would be great if DE gave us more freedom of choice in weapon slots if they were universal slots that we could pick whatever weapons we so desire for that slot.

Someone once asked for that twice I think... They wanted to carry Two Secondaries....

51 minutes ago, (XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

 

I say it's like a bad thing, because to me it has the strong potential to be. Although as I stated on the bottom AoE weapons are fun, they can create and lead to boring and non engaging gameplay. It creates a mindless sense that it doesn't matter where I am aiming because my weapon will always atleast hit something and will kill an enemy or maybe 5 or more at a time, oh and I can spam this weapon to my hearts desire.

And if this was Dark Sector then you would have a point.... But without these weapons we would be drowning Knee Deep in enemies 😱 !!!!

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

It would be like us having a few frames with tremendously OP ultimates that we could just spam endlessly because our energy drops would be endless and the cost of spending the ability wouldnt really feel like a sacrifice. There's no weight to the cost. That's why I compared AoE weapons as the ultimate ability of our weapon choices. Except AoE weapons have readily available ammo vs energy for ultimate abilities.

Hasn't this already Happened ? I mean Squad Energy Restores are Spammable....

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

 

Long term I believe it creates a narrative that if these weapons are so outstandingly powerful compared to everything else and they can be used just as often, why would anyone choose anything different? Why would anyone go back to other weapons if not just for a particular boss fight?

I can't speak for everyone Else but I would totally not use These Weapons if Warframe didn't require so much killing in the first place....

Would you continue to use them I'd more missions were like Spy and Sabotage ?

58 minutes ago, (XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

 

I'm not on here to say I don't use AoE weapons or that players shouldn't use them. I use them all the time why wouldn't you if they make the game more efficient? It's almost like you'd be dumb for not choosing the most efficient route. But why should the most efficient route be always available? What's to spark the creative disparities between builds with other players? How else can DE entice players to want to try out some other new weapons they bring out if they won't perform anywhere near to the AoE meta?

They can start by changing missions to not require them so much..

1 hour ago, Dualice said:

I recently suggested that Primed Sure Footed should not apply its bonuses to self-stagger from weapons. The reaction it got indicated that having AoE weapons with zero drawbacks is what most players are happy to continue with. So, I'm with you, but I doubt it's a very popular opinion.

I mean... You should know better than to Nerf a Mod that takes litteraly 2 Actual Years to Grind for...

People are already Salty about the Hema Research Farm.... So naturally Primed Sure Footed Nerfs were not going to have a Positive Reception 😱.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

I can't speak for everyone Else but I would totally not use These Weapons if Warframe didn't require so much killing in the first place....

Would you continue to use them I'd more missions were like Spy and Sabotage ?

I'm with you on this.  If this game didn't just throw hordes of enemies at you all the time and ask you to delete them as fast as possible.

AOE wouldn't be what it is today. 

I posted before it would be nice if the game play was slowed down by having fewer enemies that are stronger. Like if a steel path level guy showed up but it was just one so you if you didn't have all the OP gear it would be a challenge of sorts.  This would then allow DE to tone done the power without ruining the experience completely. 

But I guess that is an idea for Warframe 2

[ganjou234]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Someone once asked for that twice I think... They wanted to carry Two Secondaries....

...and I want to carry two Primaries...

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Alternatively, how about all enemies killed by AOE weapons have a 0% chance of dropping ammo with the in-universe excuse that the AOE explosion destroyed all the ammo.

[taiiat]

ultimately the purpose is to have an Ammo balance that requires you to be actively Killing Enemies and going to them to pick up what they dropped in order to maintain having Ammo to shoot with. that's the purpose of Ammunition in Video Games.

 

17 hours ago, Dualice said:

I recently suggested that Primed Sure Footed should not apply its bonuses to self-stagger from weapons. The reaction it got indicated that having AoE weapons with zero drawbacks is what most players are happy to continue with. So, I'm with you, but I doubt it's a very popular opinion.

i won't even consider that unless the AoE Weapons that didn't self Damage before, had their self Stagger removed. they were intentionally designed to not have that before, but now they're basically unusable without Stagger immunity.

[cute_moth.npc]

I mean.. Unless you are also going to request that Dispensary, ammo pizzas, Lavos' transmute skill, mutation mods and Energized Munitions no longer work, it's probably not going to do much on its own.

Then you have to solve the following issues too:

Bubonico, Shedu, explosive Kitguns with Pax Charge, other "regenerating" AoE weapons

Rebalancing the ammo capacity of some AoE weapons that have ridiculous reserve ammo (example: Tombfinger)

Ammo economy could be a part of the puzzle, but it's really not that simple as making a new ammo type with how many bypasses are in the game right now..

[Tyreaus]

On 2021-11-03 at 11:46 AM, Twin_Fawn said:

it's really not that simple as making a new ammo type with how many bypasses are in the game right now..

This is the big thing DE overlooks. In principle, the drawbacks of AoE weapons - from melee's short range to ammo economies of explosive launchers and Bramma's ammo efficiency to self-stagger, etc. - are well-balanced to keep the weapons decently regulated. We just have so many ways to bypass those drawbacks outright. On paper, my Bramma should be running out of ammo on a regular basis, and I should be relying on a secondary weapon to make up for the downtime. In actuality, 10 shots (from the Merciless arcane) with an ammo mutation restoring one shot per ammo drop, means I don't run out of ammo. Ever. Not to mention self-stagger with Primed Sure Footed and, heck, even if self-damage were reintroduced, Augur mods to restore shield gates on self-damage.

Not to say bypassing those drawbacks ever is a bad thing, of course. I think the Staticor could get away with getting around self-stagger, for example. There are sometimes vast potency differences between AoE weapons, so it's not necessary they be hampered in all the same way. But that goes both ways: not all AoE weapons should have the same ability to get around drawbacks.

On 2021-11-02 at 11:20 AM, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I posted before it would be nice if the game play was slowed down by having fewer enemies that are stronger. Like if a steel path level guy showed up but it was just one so you if you didn't have all the OP gear it would be a challenge of sorts.  This would then allow DE to tone done the power without ruining the experience completely. 

I've said similar on other threads talking about how factions could have different unit numbers and different durabilities. Basically, normalizing EHP values per tile. Grineer are much tankier, and so can have fewer numbers than Corpus. Infested are walking paper and so should have the numbers to compensate. Doing that does shift the relative powers of AoE and single-target weapons in principle.

The only problem with using that as a basis for balancing AoE is:

1. AoE weapons have single-target damages comparable to, or above, many dedicated single-target weapons (Not to mention that damage ends up effectively multiplied if you have even two enemies close together); and

2. Enemy durability seldom-if-ever reaches the point that even a weakened AoE weapon wouldn't handle it with ease, especially when mods like Hunter Munitions cut _(huehuehue) into scaling factors.

Those can be solved, but people aren't likely to be happy about it.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

On 2021-11-06 at 9:11 AM, Tyreaus said:

I've said similar on other threads talking about how factions could have different unit numbers and different durabilities. Basically, normalizing EHP values per tile. Grineer are much tankier, and so can have fewer numbers than Corpus. Infested are walking paper and so should have the numbers to compensate. Doing that does shift the relative powers of AoE and single-target weapons in principle.

The only problem with using that as a basis for balancing AoE is:

1. AoE weapons have single-target damages comparable to, or above, many dedicated single-target weapons (Not to mention that damage ends up effectively multiplied if you have even two enemies close together); and

2. Enemy durability seldom-if-ever reaches the point that even a weakened AoE weapon wouldn't handle it with ease, especially when mods like Hunter Munitions cut _(huehuehue) into scaling factors.

Those can be solved, but people aren't likely to be happy about it.

My plan was to add more common level bosses with mechanics that change up gameplay. Similar to things like ogres in destiny.

Basically you are running through the level and suddenly you are locked in a room with a boss that can't be oneshot (i.e immune to melee, weakpoints that can't be hit by aoe). 

The goal being that they aren't tough so much as require you to play differently similar to nullifiers, nox and the like.  However, a little more involved. 

Maniacs become immune to abilities.  Imagine a corpus that "armor locks" when you shoot the bramma. A grineer shield that reflects all aoe damage back at you.

The danger would be that if you didn't bring a weapon that could exploit the weakness you wouldn't be able to beat the boss. Like you only brought an AOE and can't do any damage.

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Basically you are running through the level and suddenly you are locked in a room with a boss that can't be oneshot (i.e immune to melee, weakpoints that can't be hit by aoe). 

So basically the same bull $@#& as Liches/Sisters ?

Yeah no thanks...

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

The goal being that they aren't tough so much as require you to play differently similar to nullifiers, nox and the like.  However, a little more involved. 

Right... Because people love those enemies... 🤨...

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Maniacs become immune to abilities. 

Sigh....

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

The danger would be that if you didn't bring a weapon that could exploit the weakness you wouldn't be able to beat the boss. Like you only brought an AOE and can't do any damage.

Don't we have enough content in Warframe where you are forced into using Specific gear.... I want less of this Bull $#@& not more...

 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

29 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So basically the same bull $@#& as Liches/Sisters ?

Yeah no thanks...

Right... Because people love those enemies... 🤨...

Sigh....

Don't we have enough content in Warframe where you are forced into using Specific gear.... I want less of this Bull $#@& not more...

 

It's either that or making AOE stupid with nerfs.

But I'm not thinking of anything that strong.  More on the lines of tusk thumper, racknoid kind of annoyance. Like during a survival on Venus I was met with a rare Jackal. 

I don't know if that was an intended mechanic or bug or if it was something still in the game.  But fighting a low level venus survival and around minute 10 or so here comes a Jackal just like the kind that sometimes spawn in Fortuna. 

 

Although the larger part of that is making the mechanics of those encounters engaging. 

Because you are right as they stand now unique enemies in the current state of the game are less than engaging. 

 

The juggernaut and prosecutors are attempts at this but the level is often so cramped you can't really vary tactics for them 

[Lutesque]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

It's either that or making AOE stupid with nerfs.

Why would they need to be nerfed ? 🤔

The whole point of AoE weapons is to spread damage over a large Area.... And now Finally they can achieve this.... Nerfing something for being good at the Job it was tasked with doing is just Deliberately Antagonistic Design... It's like Nerfing melee weapons for being too good up close...

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

But I'm not thinking of anything that strong.  More on the lines of tusk thumper, racknoid kind of annoyance. Like during a survival on Venus I was met with a rare Jackal. 

Why on earth would you want to the game to be annoying at all in the first place ? 😱 

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Although the larger part of that is making the mechanics of those encounters engaging. 

Because you are right as they stand now unique enemies in the current state of the game are less than engaging. 

 

The juggernaut and prosecutors are attempts at this but the level is often so cramped you can't really vary tactics for them 

If there's one thing I know with Absolute Certainty it's that you can't use Force to make a Game Engaging....

Although that would explain why so much content winds up feeling so similar....  It's because DE uses the Same logic you do....

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

50 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Why would they need to be nerfed ? 🤔

The whole point of AoE weapons is to spread damage over a large Area.... And now Finally they can achieve this.... Nerfing something for being good at the Job it was tasked with doing is just Deliberately Antagonistic Design... It's like Nerfing melee weapons for being too good up close...

Why on earth would you want to the game to be annoying at all in the first place ? 😱 

If there's one thing I know with Absolute Certainty it's that you can't use Force to make a Game Engaging....

Although that would explain why so much content winds up feeling so similar....  It's because DE uses the Same logic you do....

Well the whole point of this thread is yet another call to nerf AOE because it is so "overpowered". I personally don't agree but, if balance is needed I say changing the way we interact with the enemies is where I would start over changing a weapon class to be less.

I don't mean literally annoying.  More of how those enemies often require players to act "differently".  People claim to hate nullifiers.  But that is often because they need to act differently in the game. 

I suppose the main thing is if you would like the game to be changed to balance the so called meta choices.  Or to make missions feel more fun and engaging.

What would be your solution? 🤷‍♂️

Mine has consistently been slow down the gameplay/mission without slowing down the player. Adjust game mechanics like rewards and grind to reflect this desire. 

 

[Lutesque]

56 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

 

I don't mean literally annoying.  More of how those enemies often require players to act "differently".  People claim to hate nullifiers.  But that is often because they need to act differently in the game

That's a Massive Understatement... You need to act Differently for Ospreys or Ancients.... What Nullifiers provoke in Actual Squads is genuine cause for Panick and Retribution as everyone prioritises killing them ASAP....

 

59 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

 

I suppose the main thing is if you would like the game to be changed to balance the so called meta choices.  Or to make missions feel more fun and engaging.

What would be your solution? 🤷‍♂️

My solution would be not to fix what ain't broken....

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

 

Mine has consistently been slow down the gameplay/mission without slowing down the player. Adjust game mechanics like rewards and grind to reflect this desire. 

I'm not a big fan of the Bribery Approach... And I'm especially heart broken that it actually works.... 😭

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

Can be easily fixed with mutation mods and Lavos.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

21 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

That's a Massive Understatement... You need to act Differently for Ospreys or Ancients.... What Nullifiers provoke in Actual Squads is genuine cause for Panick and Retribution as everyone prioritises killing them ASAP....

Those ospreys do massive damage on sp… what nullifiers provoke when I see one is a 5 million red crit.

 

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I suppose the main thing is if you would like the game to be changed to balance the so called meta choices.  Or to make missions feel more fun and engaging.

The thing is that for some people most of the game mechanics we have now would have to be erased and/or changed if we want to make missions feel more fun.

I’M NOT DISAGREEING. I also want them to be more fun and engaging but I wonder how since every mission is basically “spam aoe”

[(PSN)palebluelight]

Nope. It would just create unnecessary additions to mods and therefore unnecessary additional endo cost. Why do you want to convolute the game more? Don’t destiny my warframe already quit that hot garbage.